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The 2012-2013 Manchester United Thread: Thank you, Sir Alex

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That's him gone then...

As if he's going to come out and say they've been quarrelling and we're looking to get rid of him :D

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"You have my word"

It's not going to be one or the other ffs :D

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Fergie banned Ian Ladyman today for saying that there is tension between Fergie and Rooney. Wonder why he did that, maybe told some truth Fergie didn't want him to?

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Banning him for the world to see knowing what he asked probably doesn't help things if it were true.

oh and Ladyman :D

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Good to see he was calm and composed and didn't go at the ref's or UEFA's throats. I expected that, but still nice to see. Spots churnalists keep putting out BS so often that I'm glad he banned them. Stop talking BS and spreading lies and do your bloody job, which is supposed to be to inform the public.

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Good to see he was calm and composed and didn't go at the ref's or UEFA's throats. I expected that, but still nice to see. Spots churnalists keep putting out BS so often that I'm glad he banned them. Stop talking BS and spreading lies and do your bloody job, which is supposed to be to inform the public.

How do you know Ladyman was churning out BS on this occasion? He has a very good reputation.

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Good to see he was calm and composed and didn't go at the ref's or UEFA's throats. I expected that, but still nice to see. Spots churnalists keep putting out BS so often that I'm glad he banned them. Stop talking BS and spreading lies and do your bloody job, which is supposed to be to inform the public.

That's not true actually. His job (paid for by his employer) is to make them sell more papers.

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Fergie banned Ian Ladyman today for saying that there is tension between Fergie and Rooney. Wonder why he did that, maybe told some truth Fergie didn't want him to?

... or cos he was stirring the pot, which Fergie didn't want him to.

That's not true actually. His job (paid for by his employer) is to make them sell more papers.

... and his profession is to inform the public, who in turn purchase the media output with the money that constitutes his remuneration.

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Exactly. The prime job of a journalist is to inform the public. Normal journalists usually fail abysmally in this regard too, and sports journalists even more so, but it IS (supposed to be) their prime role.

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It's still the case. Just because many are derelict in their duty in lieu of spouting ***** in return for a shiny dollar doesn't change that intrinsic duty: to inform the public of matters that they should (rather than 'want') - but would otherwise be unable to - be aware of.

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No it's not, the duty of everyone involved in commercial media is to sell their product. If they can get away with spouting lazy nonsense then that's entirely within their right, selling rubbish to idiots is an age old business model. If you work for a non-profit organisation like the BBC that is different, they're publicly funded to provide us with accurate news, the Daily Mail etc. aren't so can publish whatever content they think will sell the most papers, which is what the likes of Ladyman are employed to gather.

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Ian Herbert of the Independent was the other journalist banned today, another that is usually decent. Another that used the word tension in his piece.

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No it's not, the duty of everyone involved in commercial media is to sell their product. If they can get away with spouting lazy nonsense then that's entirely within their right, selling rubbish to idiots is an age old business model. If you work for a non-profit organisation like the BBC that is different, they're publicly funded to provide us with accurate news, the Daily Mail etc. aren't so can publish whatever content they think will sell the most papers, which is what the likes of Ladyman are employed to gather.

That the business is largely morally bankrupt does not mean that the participants aren't immoral. You don't train to be a 'commercial media *****hawk', nor is there a union for such. If you are a journalist, your role in society is to inform the public of things they need to know that they cannot access themselves. If you decide to sell out then that's your lookout, but your role isn't suddenly redefined on the basis of 'well, everyone else is doing it'.

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The role is to write stories that sell papers, that is the be all and end all to commercial journalism. It's a field ruled entirely by money, any illusion of 'journalistic integrity' is based what the consumer wants or doesn't want.

Publicly funded journalism and commercial journalism are two entirely different fields.

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The role is to write stories that sell papers, that is the be all and end all to commercial journalism. It's a field ruled entirely by money, any illusion of 'journalistic integrity' is based what the consumer wants or doesn't want.

Publicly funded journalism and commercial journalism are two entirely different fields.

We're talking about 'journalism'. You were the one who brought the commercial or other aspect into it. The inherent role of journalism remains as it always has; commercialisation hasn't altered that, merely added a further, undesirable aspect to it. There's guys who write in the Blizzard who also write for the Guardian, for a very basic example.

Just because the commercial aspect has corrupted the intrinsic responsibility of 'a journalist' does not diminish the responsibility of that role, only the integrity of the person occupying it. There's no such profession as 'commercial journalism' or 'publicly funded journalism'. It's not like there aren't well-minted legitimate journalists out there.

Once you get your NUJ card you are morally bound to inform the public of what they need to know. If you chose to abuse your position to spout crap that they don't for personal gain, that's your choice; but that speaks to your character, not that of the profession. It's like saying all coppers or politicians are bent; a significantly high proportion may well be, but that doesn't make it right, and doesn't alter what they should be doing.

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The journalist in question is Ian Ladyman, he works for the Daily Mail. If we were talking about one that worked for the Beeb I'd agree with you, as it is Ladyman is going to do what sells the most papers because that's his job. The journalist in change of page 3 knows what Michelle with the slightly asymmetric nipples thinks about the North Korean nuclear crisis isn't in the public interest, but because he's working for a company that makes it's money by selling papers he puts them in, because builders love naked nubile blondes with scripted opinions on international affairs.

That's the last I'll be saying on this because the evidence speaks for itself and you can drag something like this out for 15 pages and I'm not in the mood for once.

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The journalist in question is Ian Ladyman, he works for the Daily Mail. If we were talking about one that worked for the Beeb I'd agree with you, as it is Ladyman is going to do what sells the most papers because that's his job. The journalist in change of page 3 knows what Michelle with the slightly asymmetric nipples thinks about the North Korean nuclear crisis isn't in the public interest, but because he's working for a company that makes it's money by selling papers he puts them in, because builders love naked nubile blondes with scripted opinions on international affairs.

That's the last I'll be saying on this because the evidence speaks for itself and you can drag something like this out for 15 pages and I'm not in the mood for once.

The second word of this post indicates why this argument shouldn't have even been dragged out this far - you're arguing the wrong point. Ladyman is a journalist - no matter who he works for and their practises, his responsibilities to the public at large remain the same - and this is what Pan and I take issue with. I don't know his background, but I presume he trained in some way, shape or form as a journalist; not a 'commercial media producer', not a 'private media content gatherer', a journalist - that is the be all and end all. There are not separate degrees for the beeb and for everyone else. There are not separate unions for public and private services. If he left the Mail for a job at the beeb, his responsibilities would not change. If someone from the beeb left for a job at the Mail, their respnosilities would not change. Their jobs may well do, sure, but the role of a journalist is - and I cannot stress this enough - a really ****ing important one. That the art of journalism has become competitive enough to be monetised, and that the subsequent commodification has driven the quality through the floor inexorably toward the lowest common demoninator, does not make the contributors any less accountable. 'Builders loving naked blondes' is irrelevant, as, as I made pains to state previously, what the public may or may not be interested in does not necessarily correlate to what is in the public interest.

He may work for the Daily Mail, in the sense that they pay his salary (which is funded by sales, to the public), however the role of a journalist in society - no matter who they work for, however corrupt or distorted the simulacra they produce may be - is to investigate and disseminate information to the public that would be unfeasible for everyone and his brother to access first hand. This will never change; if it did then there would be a different word for it ('hack', mayhaps?). To excuse a journalist for writing bollocks on the basis that it everyone writes bollocks is to excuse a corrupt public official on the basis that there other corrupt public officials. Wrong is wrong.

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Yeah I'm not reading that :D there is nothing I have said that could possibly warrant that wall of test

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He may work for the Daily Mail, in the sense that they pay his salary (which is funded by sales, to the public).

First of all: an excellent post. However, I take issue with the above (to take this even further off-topic! :D). Some of their funding comes from sales, of course. But most of their funding actually comes from advertising (depending on the outlet, of course). You can say that what they sell is not really the paper, but readers to their advertisers. There are both factors of course, but this one is rather important. Much the same for TV. The "product" Sky and whatnot 'sell', is X amount of football fans and so forth to their advertisers.

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Damn!! Everton have been knocked out of the cup, now Leppard will be hanging around here and jinxing our games. :mad:

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He's not an Everton fan anymore i heard. West Ham now.

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Tunnicliffe has done well vs City today. Always looking for the ball, comfortable on it. Drives forward with the ball and managed to plant one of his trademark tackles on a City player.

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Could really use a Prem move next year to see if he can kick on. Real shame he's not had more opportunities.

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Will be interesting to see how Michael Keane does next year too, and what SAF chooses for him. He's 19 (I think?) and playing week in week out for a promotion chasing Championship club. It speaks highly of his talent. So important to get the 'right' loan deals too. Too often our players go out and barely get any minutes. Unfortunately Leicester have had poor results lately so can probably wave goodbye to direct promotion, but it would be excellent if they managed to go up. He could go back next year and get PL experience while, hopefully, get lots of matches.

According to the ever well-informed Mr Mujac, Will Keane is back to full running, so hopefully he gets some reserve matches in the last 2 months of the season. Terrible to lose practically a whole season at such a delicate age, but I hope he can kick on again next season.

Must admit I had fairly high hopes for Tunnicliffe a year or two back, not least because he's a midfielder type we currently lack. He seems to have stalled a little though. The same with Larnell Cole, but he's younger and only now starting to fill out a bit more (actually, after looking it up there is only roughly 2 months between them, thought it was a year). Hopefully he can develop well over the next 2 seasons. To my surprise, Lingard has done better than him this season.

There are a lot of good players in our youth brackets now, and I think many of them will get professional careers in the top two levels. Making it for Manchester United, however, is an incredibly difficult task, much more so than when Giggs, Beckham, Nevilles and Co broke through. Think Januzaj has enough to his game and physique to stand a good chance though, and I of course hope Dæhli can do it too. But it's so difficult to judge youth players. Although the talent was there, Pogba didn't exactly set the reserve league on fire last season, and now he's starting CL matches for Juventus, who will by all likelihood win Serie A. It's pretty absurd really. I don't know how dominant Cleverley was in the youth team as I didn't follow it that closely then, but he was a late developer.

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It shouldn't really surprise anyone that Lingard has done better than Cole or Tunnicliffe. Last season only Diouf(24 in 40 for Hannover since signing) and Keane scored more than he did and nobody got more assists. He is an excellent player that is just coming on later due to physical factors.

We deliberately hold the smaller lads back. Luke Giverin noted it in an interview not too long ago.

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Really hope Will Keane can come back stronger than he was last season, going to be very difficult now for him though with the additions of Henriquez and van Persie and he's lost a year of development. Wouldn't surprise me if Michael Keane was kept around next year with the first team squad, at least for the first half of the season. I like Tunnicliffe but not sure if he'll make it here, better players have failed. His attitude at least though is extremely good which can only improve his chances. Cole and Lingard (and Luke Giverin for that matter) will be like Cleverley I think due to their (lack of) physicality, they've probably got a couple of years before decisions need to be made. Januzaj as you say has a good chance, attitude, technical ability and physique is there or thereabouts. Barring any major injuries I think he'll be in or around the first team in a couple of years. Daehli's still got to develop physically but once he gets to a similar level to Januzaj I expect him to follow the same path.

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On the topic of Januzaj, he has the same physical structure as Lingard and co and it still hasn't stopped him from massively standing out very quickly. At about the age Januzaj is now I think Cole, Lingard and Giverin all improved immensely, if he does the same it could see him make the break through imo.

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Would like Michael Keane around the squad next season, presuming Rio and/or Vidic may be used more sparingly. Looked the business against Chelsea.

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Michael Keane hasn't impressed me massively but a 19 year old centre back doing well in the Championship must be a decent prospect at least.

Lingard looked excellent in pre-season. I'd like to see more of him, definitely.

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Blimey, has Januzaj really just turned 18? Thought it was 19. He has done very well for the U21s, even more so considering he's just a lad really. Not grown into his body properly yet, but still does well for the U21s, often being one of the better players. Dæhli was on the bench for the U21s last match, but still looks a bit tiny. Probably a good idea to hold him back this year. He has made the U21 debut for Norway, but doesn't play there regularly either.

brez, I think Lingard just went under the radar for me. Looks a good player with a fine drive forward, but earlier I've paid more attention to Cole, and of course Pogba and especially Morrison. Morrison still annoys me. Could pretty much have put money on him making it and been safe - if he wasn't such a headcase. I've no idea how the likes of Giggs, Scholes and Beckham looked for the youth team, but Morrison is the best I've seen at that level.

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He's not really being offered a new contract though, Ferguson simply said that they'll renegotiate it when the time comes (i.e. 'we don't want to sell him'), and the press have just written what they want. No doubt with a view to 'STILL NO BREAKTHROUGH IN ROONEY CONTRACT DEADLOCK' headlines come the summer.

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As United apparently have a policy of not allowing contracts to run into the final year and Rooney has 2 years left on his deal, the fact Fergie says 'he'll be here next season' means 'he's getting a new contract' in journalist speak

If he doesn't get a new deal right away that'll mean more headlines about him moving "Fergie guaranteed he would stay but talks on a new deal have stalled" and so on

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The thing is, in practice the contract doesn't get inked until there's around eighteen months left; and for a headline name like Rooney, who's that bit closer to the 30+ age bracket, there's every chance negotiations will drag on for longer, so we could be looking at another 12 months until there's any 'real' news on the issue.

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I know, I am sure all kinds of clauses and image and commerical bits and pieces will be included in the top, top players' deals

That was pretty much how I read the headlines yesterday though. United don't allow contracts to run into final year ... *bing* that means a new deal for Rooney! :D

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Neville interviweing Giggs in't Daily Mail. Top stuff.

Really good this. I can see why people like Nev predict a managerial career for Giggs because he seems to have the ability to see the greater picture and understands what to do for the best in certain situations.

I think it would be great if one day we have a coaching team with Giggs, Nev and Scholes. I think the only way to continue Fergie's legacy is to have people around who have experienced it and understand it.

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Damn!! Everton have been knocked out of the cup, now Leppard will be hanging around here and jinxing our games. :mad:

You're gonna LOSE :mad:

He's not an Everton fan anymore i heard. West Ham now.

Being knocked out of the cup is hardly something new for an Everton supporter. :D

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De Gea; Rafael, Ferdinand, Evans, Evra; Nani, Carrick, Cleverley, Kagawa; Rooney, Hernandez

Good team that. Hope Rafael's not just running on fumes mind.

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What a striker you got in Hernandez. How he struggles to get starts is beyond me. A natural finisher and would get masses of goals if he was given more starts. I think he would be better of leaving if he wants to get starts and better recognition for what he does.

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Nani has done okay but he has been the number 1 loser of the ball this half closely followed by Evans.

Funnily enough Evans is tied with Rio for our best player of the match so far mainly as we have been backs to the wall for quite a while.

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That first goal was so amazing. Carrick's pass was delightful and the finish was just perfect.

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