The 2012-2013 Manchester United Thread: Thank you, Sir Alex

[ddidiodion]

No but thanks for yet again taking my comments out of context rather than actually discussing the point. That line of thought was in reference to comparing Owen versus Valencia; why Owen was an understandable gamble despite his significant on-field inferiority in comparison to Valencia.

That was the reason for the remark though... we never give it to the high profile established super star, it's always given to someone with a bit of a point to prove. If we'd wanted to continue along that line then we'd have given it to Welbeck and we wouldn't be having this debate, the fact is we didn't. There were options there, would you have held the same objections if Kagawa had accepted it? After all the squad number doesn't change the squad, if Ronaldo came back and we gave him number 45 he'd still be Ronaldo. You're right though, it does take a level of confidence and self belief (misplaced in Owens case) to wear the number 7 shirt. Some how I doubt Valencia will be lacking in that regard, he's just less eager to flaunt it.

[aggressive minor]

Fryers has Evra ahead of him, Fabio at the very least on par with him and the rumours we are searching for a new left back. At Spurs he'll have Assou-Ekotto and...? That's it? Can't remember if Rose is a full back or a midfielder atm. If he's going to Spurs I'd assume it was for the right reasons, slightly differing from Pogba

Rose is awful, we really do need another left back.

[RSB]

That was the reason for the remark though... we never give it to the high profile established super star, it's always given to someone with a bit of a point to prove. If we'd wanted to continue along that line then we'd have given it to Welbeck and we wouldn't be having this debate, the fact is we didn't. There were options there, would you have held the same objections if Kagawa had accepted it? After all the squad number doesn't change the squad, if Ronaldo came back and we gave him number 45 he'd still be Ronaldo. You're right though, it does take a level of confidence and self belief (misplaced in Owens case) to wear the number 7 shirt. Some how I doubt Valencia will be lacking in that regard, he's just less eager to flaunt it.

Not sure that British record transfer Bryan Robson, League Champion Eric Cantona or United and England regular David Beckham were all that unestablished Ronaldo was given it rather than the 28 he requested to challenge him to live up to the expectations. That the same didn't happen in 09 is why I think there are question marks over Valencia's confidence and self belief.

[ddidiodion]

Not sure that British record transfer Bryan Robson, League Champion Eric Cantona or United and England regular David Beckham were all that unestablished Ronaldo was given it rather than the 28 he requested to challenge him to live up to the expectations. That the same didn't happen in 09 is why I think there are question marks over Valencia's confidence and self belief.

You say British transfer record in 1981 like it means something, there were a handful of players going around at that price. Don't try and paint it out to be anything it isn't, he'd only just broken into the England team. Eric Cantona player of 15 games in his League winning season? Or was it the 3 league goals you were alluding to? His next season was a bit better but Leeds were still wanting to get rid, he was anything but established. Beckham had just broken into the England side as well, further enforcing the point that the very obvious choice to continue the 'tradition' of the shirt was Welbeck. We have someone at the club who meets your definition of "worthy" for the number 7 shirt, the manager just doesn't want him to have it.

As for the Valencia issue, maybe the expectations of him weren't that high? Maybe he's impressed everyone? If Valencia lacked confidence then he wouldn't have asked for the number 7 shirt. You can call his self belief misplaced (although I don't think his performances validate that statement in any way) but you can't argue it's existence.

[Harryseaess]

Because they are on tv?

Yes, but would it kill them to give us a few Saturday 3pm kick offs?

[ddidiodion]

It would kill their advertising revenue I imagine.

[craigcwwe]

Our first match was always going to get moved as we are always on TV for the opening game.

[aderow]

Its fine. I usually make my class schedule in a way that I won't miss matches even if they are on Monday.

[Andrew_]

Had a dream we drew our first game 1-1. They equalized on 83 minutes. But it was against Blackburn :confused:

[ham_aka_stam]

http://andersred.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/manchester-united-ipo-some-initial.html

[Icondacarver]

http://andersred.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/manchester-united-ipo-some-initial.html

The success of this will rely on people who like to "buy and sit" on shares.

The people buying can only hope to make money on their purchase by 1) Either selling on the shares for a profit to a 3rd party, 2) Waiting for a takeover of the club when the shares might rocket in value or 3) Wait for a point in the future when the Glazers are flush with cash and want to regain as much percentage of the shares as possible and start buying them up (as majority of these shares will lack voting power, i doubt they will be in a rush to do so).

Makes the shares a hard sell but the decision to go with Jefferies as the "top left" lead underwriter either means that none of the big 10 are impressed by it or they know something that we don't. Hopefully it is the latter and as Jefferies will be staking a lot on this offering, they will do everything to make it work.

Does look a bit desperate that they are going with such a small firm though and that worries me a lot as Jefferies have never led a listing worth more than $250-$300m.

[Pangaea]

Not seen it mentioned yet, but Rafael made a pretty strong Brazil Olympic squad. Good for him. Hope they do well.

Sad day if we lose out on a player to bloody Spurs. But with their new manager I can see him going there. Hopefully we're after that kind of player though.

Losing Fryers is hardly the end of the world, as the best future for him here would be squad rotation. But it's a worrying sign that young players are just f-ing off like that, letting their contracts run down. Especially when they are local lads. Sometimes I hate agents so much. Admittedly Ravel hasn't done anything since he left, but it's not fun to lose talents like Ravel, Pogba and now Fryers within a short year. Pogba is obviously the big one. If we get 2-3 million for Fryers though, we can't have too many complaints. I expected the 'usual' 300k, even if he is worth much more than that. Think we're getting pennies for Pogba, which is the really annoying thing.

Such a slow summer now, can't wait to the season kicks off again - even pre-season matches will be good.

[Andrew_]

First pre season game is on the 18th so not long.

[craigcwwe]

Moutinho would be a great signing, still young at 25 and would be a mainstay in midfield for at least the next 5 years.

With Spurs interested though and Moutinho playing under AVB at Porto it might be a little bit harder to sign him.

Park to QPR is a good deal for both sides imo, Park is past his best and would not get more than 10 starts across all comps next season

[ddidiodion]

I do hope this doesn't mean Fergie has his eye on Kagawa as the hard working Asian to a job on the fullback stereotype, wasted there.

[ddidiodion]

Tell that to the City game

[aderow]

I do hope this doesn't mean Fergie has his eye on Kagawa as the hard working Asian to a job on the fullback stereotype, wasted there.

Won't work. Kagawa isn't that sort of player.

[Icelander83]

As if that would stop it happening

[tomtuck01]

According to Sky Sports, (I know, I know), Fryers has agreed to jon Spurs.

[Kain]

I doubt we'd be able to outbid you for Moutinho, and we wouldn't be able to match your offer of wages either. I'd be very surprised if both Man Utd and Spurs made bids and he chose us over you, even with AVB.

[TigerChris]

Amos for the season is done for those that haven't heard.

[aderow]

I doubt we'd be able to outbid you for Moutinho, and we wouldn't be able to match your offer of wages either. I'd be very surprised if both Man Utd and Spurs made bids and he chose us over you, even with AVB.

Its porto. I doubt any of us will match their asking price.

And good luck to Amos.

[RSB]

You say British transfer record in 1981 like it means something, there were a handful of players going around at that price. Don't try and paint it out to be anything it isn't, he'd only just broken into the England team.

Well the previous record had stood for over two years, and Robson's stood for another six. They had him sign the contract on the pitch ffs, it was a big deal at the time.

Eric Cantona player of 15 games in his League winning season? Or was it the 3 league goals you were alluding to? His next season was a bit better but Leeds were still wanting to get rid, he was anything but established.

15 games in the half of the League winning season he was there for - yeah, that one. Only scored 11 goals in his last season for us too - can't be anything to do with the fact he was a creative force for that Leeds side, providing the ammunition for Chapman. His 'bit better' next season included hattricks against Liverpool and Spurs in the part of the season he played there.

Beckham had just broken into the England side as well, further enforcing the point that the very obvious choice to continue the 'tradition' of the shirt was Welbeck. We have someone at the club who meets your definition of "worthy" for the number 7 shirt, the manager just doesn't want him to have it.

Becks played in all but 2 of our League games in the '97 season (his second as a regular first teamer - hence his #10 shirt), 33 of which were starts, and started all 10 Champions League games, compared to Welbeck starting 23 League and 1 European game. Becks was also the only ever present member of the '98 World Cup qualifying campaign - he'd been an established starter for a whole season, as opposed to Welbeck who made his first start in Feb.

In the hope of moving on from this farce, I thought I'd do a quick analysis of the squad as it stands, since apart from the usual paper talk and Fergie's '1 or 2 deals' tease, there doesn't seem to be a lot happening with regards players coming in.

GK

de Gea; Lindegaard; Johnstone (presumably?)

RB

Rafael; Smalling; Jones; Valencia

CB

Vidic; Ferdinand; Evans; Smalling; Jones; Carrick

LB

Evra; Rafael; Giggs

DM

Carrick; Jones; Fletcher*

CM

Carrick; Cleverley; Scholes; Anderson; Giggs; Jones; Fletcher*; Kagawa?; Powell(?);

RW

Nani; Valencia; Young; Welbeck; Cleverley; Rooney; Fletcher*

AM

Kagawa; Powell; Young; Anderson; Cleverley; Nani; Rooney; Welbeck; Giggs;

LW

Nani; Young; Giggs; Cleverley; Welbeck; Kagawa; Rooney; Macheda*

F

Rooney; Welbeck; Hernandez; Berbatov*; Macheda*; Powell

Asterisks denote players who may well not be around; italics some degree of emergency or desperation. Not included any dross like Bebe, and all the kids are either crap; will likely go out on loan; or both.

I make 24 outfielders including the likes of Berbs, Fletcher, Bebe and Macheda. That strikes me as somewhat on the small side, and it seems pretty obvious where the gaps are. Park to QPR is an interesting one - really don't think he has anything to offer us any more, and if Kagawa is a genuine option on the left then between him and Cleverley we should be sufficiently covered, and will hopefully go for a CM after all.

[Pangaea]

Apart from being stupendously thin on RB and LB, the only place we really need a signing is in CM. There is a certain Spaniard I'd fancy, but it's probably more a pipedream than anything else.

[Harryseaess]

Will be quite sad if/when Park leaves, although it would be the right decision, he isn't the same player that he was a couple of years ago.

[metal_guitarist]

Park to QPR for £5m confirmed. I swear we only paid £4m for him when we signed him as well.

[Icelander83]

Either way I'm amazed we got 5 million for him. I wouldn't say he's worth anywhere near that for us anymore, yet he could be worth a lot more to QPR than 5m. Odd situation

[pago]

yeah 5m seems quite a lot! Happy with that deal if so.

[JB]

This is usually where i'd come into a thread and ask what type of player we have signed.

But I already know. A **** load of running.

[JJ72]

Great - now a few mill for Berbs and we've got a left leg of a decent midfielder!

[RSB]

Cole and Lingard aren't crap or going on loan as far as I know, and as of now Petrucci isn't either so they all could be involved. Im pretty confident we will sign 2 more players aswell.

Was going off this, not that I think either will make it with us. Considered citing Davide as an exception, though I don't think he's yet ready for the first team, whether he goes out on loan or just continues his rehabilitation with the reserves.

And can people stop saying transfers are 'confirmed' before the news has been officially broken? No reputable source that I can see nor either official site has anything on the Park deal. Not that I'm doubting it will go through, but forum/twitter/whatever isn't 'confirmation'

Good deal if the figures are correct mind.

[Icelander83]

Reports now saying Park is going for 2m and not 5m.

[johnhughthom]

Is it just me, or does the official United site freeze other peoples comps for a good 15-20 seconds when clicking on a link?

[scott MUFC]

I can find nothing on the Park deal either

[7Bestie7]

Miguel Delaney thinks Anderson could be next to go, hardly an exclusive as its been rumoured for a while. Think if he does it shows how much we need to clear the wage bill to get new players in just like last season. Hopefully that means Berba is following soon.

Park, Berba, Anderson and a few bob from the Ravel, Fryers and perhaps Pogba deals. Definitely sounds like a freeing up of wages and getting a bit of money in for a large signing.

[JJ72]

BBC are reporting it for £5million - personal terms to be agreed.

[RSB]

Rooney's replaced him on the tour banner.

[craigcwwe]

Park is apparently on 70k pw, if true that is obviously a sizeable chunk off the wage bill that can go to Moutinho

[tomtuck01]

Park is apparently on 70k pw, if true that is obviously a sizeable chunk off the wage bill that can go to a possible new player.

Fixed it for you.

[7Bestie7]

Park is apparently on 70k pw, if true that is obviously a sizeable chunk off the wage bill that can go to helping with the debt

Yes, I'm feeling Anti-Glazer this evening.

[ddidiodion]

Well the previous record had stood for over two years, and Robson's stood for another six. They had him sign the contract on the pitch ffs, it was a big deal at the time.

As I said, transfer fees around that time aren't the same as now, there were loads of transfers in and around the £1-1.5m mark during that time, it wasn't like signing Zidane for £45m. Robson wasn't an established superstar like he became at United, I'm not sure why there is an argument about this.

15 games in the half of the League winning season he was there for - yeah, that one. Only scored 11 goals in his last season for us too - can't be anything to do with the fact he was a creative force for that Leeds side, providing the ammunition for Chapman. His 'bit better' next season included hattricks against Liverpool and Spurs in the part of the season he played there.

Yes, and Liverpool turned him down because he was more trouble than he was worth, Leeds also sold him to us remember. Once again, why you're trying to pretend he wasn't seen as a seriously talented but seriously troubled individual with loads of question marks over him seems baffling.

Becks played in all but 2 of our League games in the '97 season (his second as a regular first teamer - hence his #10 shirt), 33 of which were starts, and started all 10 Champions League games, compared to Welbeck starting 23 League and 1 European game. Becks was also the only ever present member of the '98 World Cup qualifying campaign - he'd been an established starter for a whole season, as opposed to Welbeck who made his first start in Feb.

What have Beckham's appearances got to do with it? I've not argued he wasn't getting games for Man Utd, merely that he'd only recently broken in to the team and the England setup. He did benefit massively from not having any competition for his place unlike Welbeck (who managed to oust Hernandez and Berbatov this season), I don't see how waiting until next year and giving Welbeck the Number 7 shirt would be different to Beckham, they'd both be about the same age as well. All three had something to prove when they came here and that is what the number 7 shirt used to be about, a young, talented, often cocky, sometimes inspirational player making a name for himself and growing into the shirt. We've got a option to do that and didn't, speculating on why is pointless.

£2m sounds much more reasonable for Park, wonder if he's taking a major wage cut or if we're subbing him the difference for the rest of his contract.

[Leppard]

Has the Park deal been confirmed?

[ddidiodion]

It's on the Beeb website and they usually don't post things until it's confirmed so it seems pretty likely.

[Sheps.]

Yeh if the BBC are reporting it then it's basically a done deal.

I loved the Park of old but this last season he mainly frustrated me, definitely time for him to move on. Good luck to him.

[scott MUFC]

great... now if we need a goal against arsneal who gonna score it

[Sheps.]

great... now if we need a goal against arsneal who gonna score it

[Pangaea]

This talk of Welbeck to get #7 baffles me. We typically don't give that number to a striker.

Little sad to see that Park is probably off, as I really like him, but it's the right decision. He isn't the player he was and when his engine starts fading that's his main advantage for us gone. If he's on 70k it's clearly right to offload him. Poor Evra though...

This does raise the hope a little we can actually put together enough money for a midfield signing. Here's hoping for some news during July

[Icelander83]

100% of the last 1 player to wear the #7 - strikers

Yeah.

[hursty2]

The squad is looking a little light in areas so I'm definitely expecting two more signings to strengthen.

Maybe we're freeing up wages so that we can budge the transfer budget up slightly.

[7Bestie7]

100% of the last 1 player to wear the #7 - strikers

Yeah.

Now Ice, if you really want to get technical then it was probably only around 75%-95% of the last player. Owen was being played as an AM by Newcastle prior to us stealing him on a free.