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The 2012-2013 Manchester United Thread: Thank you, Sir Alex


ddidiodion

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I know how IPOs work and if i did not i would be failing a lot of big exams at the end of the month :rolleyes:

I was over stressing a point but don't let the desire for one-upmanship get in the way. ;)

Wait, so you were intentionally maintaining a complete falsehood and then have the audacity to throw me a rolleyes smiley? That is just not on ffs :D

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Which player have you been watching? If 13 assists in 27 games is 'mostly solid' then I despair for you...

Well more than half of his assists came in a three week, five game spell; all but one against sides that finished in the bottom six (of his remaining assists, only 2 came against sides that finished above 15th). I reckon a player who racks up more than half of a key stat in less than a fifth of their games is a pretty decent example of a reliable if unspectacular player who goes through patches of exceptional form. That's before considering that it's possible to register assists without playing well (as with the Rooney conundrum); and that 'solid' isn't pejorative.

That is, with some margin, the most stupid thing I've ever seen in a Manchester United thread. I'd love to know who this winger other than Nani is with more ability than Valencia because if you say Ashley Young I will find you and hurt you. You need to stop comparing Valencia to Owen, it's moronic and even Coldberg wouldn't try to justify something like that. They aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of contribution, ability or anything else.

Well you've not been reading to closely :D Young at his best is better than Valencia at his best, but Valencia has a higher average. Young got 10 goals or assists against sides in the top half last season but went missing for long periods. It's horses for courses on the wings really - Valencia is useful for stretching the deep, compact defenses of weaker sides and you gamble with Young in the hope that he'll come up with something special when it's needed against the better sides.

You need to stop comparing Valencia to Owen, it's moronic and even Coldberg wouldn't try to justify something like that. They aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of contribution, ability or anything else.

I compared them in terms of their squad position (at the time of Owen's signing) and their broader profile. Valencia's obviously lightyears ahead of Owen on the pitch.

Or Valencia has exceeded expectations and has earned it, like Beckham did.

Not really a straight comparison is it? Becks had always clamoured for the shirt and was already an established first choice pick with the squad number to match.

He wore the No. 7 shirt for a while in the really early 90's when it went on position.

Well that's just deliberately missing the point :D We're talking about players who had become synonymous with the shirt pre-93 and those who have been awarded it since, as well you know. Nevermind that Gillespie had started just one FA Cup tie (in 93) before the 93/94 season when he was awarded #31. Presumably the 94/95 League Cup was still numbered 1-11, but still, no-one's suggesting that Valencia is humbled at the prospect of following in Phil Mulryne's footsteps :D

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Over stressing a point that the IPO wouldn't make much headway into our debt when in fact it would? Odd point to stress.

You really choose to be thick sometimes?

Reading a few articles on a blog does not make you a psychic mate. :lol:

I have constantly been following the IPO and i am sure i have posted a huge amount of stuff regarding it since the talk started.

An IPO that works would make great headway into our debt, the Glazers are not psychic and do not know if the IPO will work hence the filing being done this way.

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Well more than half of his assists came in a three week, five game spell; all but one against sides that finished in the bottom six (of his remaining assists, only 2 came against sides that finished above 15th). I reckon a player who racks up more than half of a key stat in less than a fifth of their games is a pretty decent example of a reliable if unspectacular player who goes through patches of exceptional form. That's before considering that it's possible to register assists without playing well (as with the Rooney conundrum); and that 'solid' isn't pejorative.

Well you've not been reading to closely :D Young at his best is better than Valencia at his best, but Valencia has a higher average. Young got 10 goals or assists against sides in the top half last season but went missing for long periods. It's horses for courses on the wings really - Valencia is useful for stretching the deep, compact defenses of weaker sides and you gamble with Young in the hope that he'll come up with something special when it's needed against the better sides.

Absolutely rubbish, Valencia has turned over plenty of big sides in his time here. Young ruining Arsenal when they had half a squad missing isn't anything to brag about. There is no way in hell Young is better than Valencia at his best, even if we got a left winger do you really think Young would start over Valencia? Just no. Our best set up is with Nani on the left and Valencia on the right.

I compared them in terms of their squad position (at the time of Owen's signing) and their broader profile. Valencia's obviously lightyears ahead of Owen on the pitch.

Valencia isn't anywhere near Owen in terms of squad position, he made about 15 starts in his best season at United, Valencia has only managed less than that the season his leg fell off. What does his broader profile have to do with it?

Not really a straight comparison is it? Becks had always clamoured for the shirt and was already an established first choice pick with the squad number to match.

And Valencia didn't ask for it this time? Oh and he is an established first pick, he's guaranteed 40 appearances next season unless Rooney, Evra or Carrick wanted it I don't see how much more a reliable selection do you wanted?

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You really choose to be thick sometimes?

Reading a few articles on a blog does not make you a psychic mate. :lol:

I have constantly been following the IPO and i am sure i have posted a huge amount of stuff regarding it since the talk started.

An IPO that works would make great headway into our debt, the Glazers are not psychic and do not know if the IPO will work hence the filing being done this way.

I was laughing at the fact you suggested the target was £64m when it clearly isn't. Of course the IPO could **** up, it doesn't mean the target has ever been $100m. You can tell by your reaction to both me and Icelander that you made a booboo using the placeholder figure, just fess up and take the 2 posts worth of mockery :p it happens to the best of us.

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We can't offload Berbatov,we can't lure a decent CM, we are launching an IPO to get a measly £64m and we still need at least £20m to get the "worlds best leftback" (Sources: Zaitsev 2012)

No thanks to RVP, with HIS injury record and OUR injury record....he will play 2 games and never be seen again. :rolleyes:

Hey Dion, read this and tell me why you and Ice saw everything else i wrote as tongue in cheek but assumed that i was serious about the IPO.

Internet one-upmanship at its finest, carry on arguing with RSB and Coldberg mate. :thup:

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Hey Dion, read this and tell me why you and Ice saw everything else i wrote as tongue in cheek but assumed that i was serious about the IPO.

I didn't see any of it as tongue in cheek, it actually seems like a rather depressingly accurate (as usual) summary of our current financial muscle. The only issue is the use of a place holder fee instead of saying "and there's a good chance the IPO could go tits up as well".

Internet one-upmanship at its finest, carry on arguing with RSB and Coldberg mate. :thup:

Arguing with Coldberg? Me and Coldberg see eye to eye on everything, I never argue with Coldberg.

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Absolutely rubbish, Valencia has turned over plenty of big sides in his time here. Young ruining Arsenal when they had half a squad missing isn't anything to brag about. There is no way in hell Young is better than Valencia at his best, even if we got a left winger do you really think Young would start over Valencia? Just no. Our best set up is with Nani on the left and Valencia on the right.

Again, just providing the facts. Young would start some games and Valencia others, depending on the opposition. Tough comparison anyway given how little Young has played on the left; it's more about how Nani is used.

Valencia isn't anywhere near Owen in terms of squad position, he made about 15 starts in his best season at United, Valencia has only managed less than that the season his leg fell off. What does his broader profile have to do with it?

Again, an unfair comparison to cite Valencia's injury but not Owen's :D The broader profile has to do with the iconography associated with the shirt, as I've been saying all along.

And Valencia didn't ask for it this time? Oh and he is an established first pick, he's guaranteed 40 appearances next season unless Rooney, Evra or Carrick wanted it I don't see how much more a reliable selection do you wanted?

Don't understand the bolded part - are you saying he didn't ask for it (he did), or that him asking for it is relevant somehow? Because it doesn't explain why he didn't get it initially. And he's obviously not a guaranteed starter - he's rotating with Nani, Young and occaisionally Park and Giggs. Jones made 40 appearances last season - doesn't make him a nailed on starter.

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Didn't see any of that as particularly tongue in cheek tbf, apart from the Baines part :D We can't shift Berba, seemingly. We are (so far) not near signing anything resembling a decent midfielder either. So one part of four being a bit of a **** take didn't mean a second one automatically became tongue in cheek

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I didn't see any of it as tongue in cheek, it actually seems like a rather depressingly accurate (as usual) summary of our current financial muscle. The only issue is the use of a place holder fee instead of saying "and there's a good chance the IPO could go tits up as well".

Yeah, tbf us struggling to flog Berbs and bring in a CM is pretty nob on.

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Again, an unfair comparison to cite Valencia's injury but not Owen's :D The broader profile has to do with the iconography associated with the shirt, as I've been saying all along.

Because Owen is a) injury prone and b) even when was fit was a bench warmer regardless. Valencia's profile now is bigger than Owens was when we signed him, people actually regard Valencia as a good player for a kick off.

Don't understand the bolded part - are you saying he didn't ask for it (he did), or that him asking for it is relevant somehow? Because it doesn't explain why he didn't get it initially. And he's obviously not a guaranteed starter - he's rotating with Nani, Young and occaisionally Park and Giggs. Jones made 40 appearances last season - doesn't make him a nailed on starter.

He did ask for it. Maybe they didn't feel he was ready for it and they do now, maybe he didn't feel ready for it but does now? His profile, ability and whatever other measure you want to use has improved massively since he joined us.

When was the last time Young, Giggs or Park started on the right? Jones made 41 appearances because he plays in a million different positions, all of which had pretty heavy injury crisis', Valencia made 38 in one position despite pretty big injury lay-offs.

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Didn't see any of that as particularly tongue in cheek tbf, apart from the Baines part :D We can't shift Berba, seemingly. We are (so far) not near signing anything resembling a decent midfielder either. So one part of four being a bit of a **** take didn't mean a second one automatically became tongue in cheek

I doubt we have bid for a CM this summer tbh, we are almost ignoring any players that play there.

I think SAF does not see it as a priority judging by how he has chased Sneijder, Hazard(?) and Kagawa (all AMs).

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Because Owen is a) injury prone and b) even when was fit was a bench warmer regardless. Valencia's profile now is bigger than Owens was when we signed him, people actually regard Valencia as a good player for a kick off.

I reckon more casual/non-fans globally know of Owen rather than Valencia. Owen has more transcendental crossover appeal than Valencia.

He did ask for it. Maybe they didn't feel he was ready for it and they do now, maybe he didn't feel ready for it but does now? His profile, ability and whatever other measure you want to use has improved massively since he joined us.

While our expectations and appeal have declined. If Tony is such a talisman now, why wasn't he offered it before Kagawa?

When was the last time Young, Giggs or Park started on the right?

I actually said this ffs! It's contingent on Nani. Christ.

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I reckon more casual/non-fans globally know of Owen rather than Valencia. Owen has more transcendental crossover appeal than Valencia.

So we should have given it to Park really?

While our expectations and appeal have declined. If Tony is such a talisman now, why wasn't he offered it before Kagawa?

Maybe he was waiting to see if they wanted to save it for a new signing before he put himself forward? This guessing is pointless, you're insistent on the idea that we can't fill the number 7 shirt with a special player despite the fact Fergie has said he wants to take away the aura around it after Ronaldo. He could have given it to Welbeck but the hype would have been ridiculous, instead he's giving it to a player who has earned it and will do it justice without all the extra unnecessary stuff.

I actually said this ffs! It's contingent on Nani. Christ.

There is very little actual rotation though, if Nani and Valencia are fit they generally play and are both obvious first choices. Occasionally when Fergie wants to do something stupid he plays Park on the left and picks Valencia or Nani depending on form/fitness but otherwise those two are the clear first picks on the wings. If they all avoid injuries next season Nani and Valencia will start far more than any of the others.

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Maybe he was waiting to see if they wanted to save it for a new signing before he put himself forward? This guessing is pointless, you're insistent on the idea that we can't fill the number 7 shirt with a special player despite the fact Fergie has said he wants to take away the aura around it after Ronaldo. He could have given it to Welbeck but the hype would have been ridiculous, instead he's giving it to a player who has earned it and will do it justice without all the extra unnecessary stuff.

Agree with you both actually, but especially this. Think SAF is trying to reduce the pressure of playing with #7, in giving it to Owen, clearly not nearly the kind of player who has had it recently. Valencia is a pretty good player, but nowhere near Ronaldo, Beckham, Cantona, nor as good as Nani (IMO). Give that shirt to a tricky winger, though, and the Ronaldo comparisons will never end. Especially by giving it to Nani. He struggled enough while he was here, he doesn't have to walk in his shadow when he's gone too. If we could magically remove this 'pressure' with the shirt, though, Nani or Kagawa would be the natural heirs in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Valencia can destroy teams on his day, but deny him space and play compact and he can almost be a waste of space. Nani and Young have more to their game than Valencia.

However, we shouldn't forget that the United players voted him best player last season. That does say something about his standing, and how well he did in fact play last season. I think Carrick and Evans were better and more important, but Valencia did have a pretty good season, though that impression is probably strengthened by doing well at the end of the season.

The bottom line is that we are incredibly strong on the wings and have different types of players. That is a great strength. If Valencia doesn't work, we can throw on Nani, or put Young on and shift Nani right. This gives us great versatility and we can change a game with one sub. Just wish we had that in the middle of the park too :|

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I have to agree with you, Pangaea. If I remember, didn't SAF give Roanldo the 7 shirt because he said that Ron had the talent to make it his own (or words to that effect)? He is definitely going the opposite route now and trying to have it just like any other number until (I'm assuming) someone naturally comes along that will be "worthy".

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The bottom line is that we are incredibly strong on the wings and have different types of players. That is a great strength. If Valencia doesn't work, we can throw on Nani, or put Young on and shift Nani right. This gives us great versatility and we can change a game with one sub. Just wish we had that in the middle of the park too :|

Well you have Park Ji-Sung in the middle of course!

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Good luck to him if that is what they have offered him. I wouldn't offer that. Clears the path for Blackett somewhat anyway. (Not that I believe Goal.com ever)

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Whether it is true or not (wages) it is becoming quite a concern that these highly rated players are turning their back on us.

Never happened before with the youth coming through to the extent as now.

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Fryers has Evra ahead of him, Fabio at the very least on par with him and the rumours we are searching for a new left back. At Spurs he'll have Assou-Ekotto and...? That's it? Can't remember if Rose is a full back or a midfielder atm. If he's going to Spurs I'd assume it was for the right reasons, slightly differing from Pogba

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Good luck to him if that is what they have offered him. I wouldn't offer that. Clears the path for Blackett somewhat anyway. (Not that I believe Goal.com ever)

This. Blackett looks to have much more potential, although I really liked what I saw of Fryers for the first team (never actually saw him play for the reserves funnily enough).

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No way he's getting past BAE without actually earning it. League cup/Europa league maybe but not a chance he'll be starting in the league :D

That's what I thought. That *cough*article*cough* has it sounding like he'll be pushing BAE all the way over being first choice left back.

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So we should have given it to Park really?

No but thanks for yet again taking my comments out of context rather than actually discussing the point. That line of thought was in reference to comparing Owen versus Valencia; why Owen was an understandable gamble despite his significant on-field inferiority in comparison to Valencia.

Maybe he was waiting to see if they wanted to save it for a new signing before he put himself forward? This guessing is pointless, you're insistent on the idea that we can't fill the number 7 shirt with a special player despite the fact Fergie has said he wants to take away the aura around it after Ronaldo. He could have given it to Welbeck but the hype would have been ridiculous, instead he's giving it to a player who has earned it and will do it justice without all the extra unnecessary stuff.

I'm not insistent, I'm hypothesising. But Ferguson saying he wants to take away the aura I'd file next to 'no value in the market' and just behind 'the Glazers are terrific owners'. If he'd've got Benzema, Villa or Sneijder and they didn't have another preference, they'd've had it, aura and all.

There is very little actual rotation though, if Nani and Valencia are fit they generally play and are both obvious first choices. Occasionally when Fergie wants to do something stupid he plays Park on the left and picks Valencia or Nani depending on form/fitness but otherwise those two are the clear first picks on the wings. If they all avoid injuries next season Nani and Valencia will start far more than any of the others.

Just don't agree with this. Hard to tell conclusively due to Valencia and Young's availability last season, but I can't see us spending £16m on a player in his mid-20s in the final year of his contract only as a back-up. They'll be rotated based upon the tactical requirements.

However, we shouldn't forget that the United players voted him best player last season. That does say something about his standing, and how well he did in fact play last season. I think Carrick and Evans were better and more important, but Valencia did have a pretty good season, though that impression is probably strengthened by doing well at the end of the season.

I do wonder whether there was something of a split vote with there not being much between Carrick and Evans. Valencia maybe to us last year as Ginola was to the PFA and FWA in '99.

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No but thanks for yet again taking my comments out of context rather than actually discussing the point. That line of thought was in reference to comparing Owen versus Valencia; why Owen was an understandable gamble despite his significant on-field inferiority in comparison to Valencia.

That was the reason for the remark though... we never give it to the high profile established super star, it's always given to someone with a bit of a point to prove. If we'd wanted to continue along that line then we'd have given it to Welbeck and we wouldn't be having this debate, the fact is we didn't. There were options there, would you have held the same objections if Kagawa had accepted it? After all the squad number doesn't change the squad, if Ronaldo came back and we gave him number 45 he'd still be Ronaldo. You're right though, it does take a level of confidence and self belief (misplaced in Owens case) to wear the number 7 shirt. Some how I doubt Valencia will be lacking in that regard, he's just less eager to flaunt it.

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Fryers has Evra ahead of him, Fabio at the very least on par with him and the rumours we are searching for a new left back. At Spurs he'll have Assou-Ekotto and...? That's it? Can't remember if Rose is a full back or a midfielder atm. If he's going to Spurs I'd assume it was for the right reasons, slightly differing from Pogba

Rose is awful, we really do need another left back.

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That was the reason for the remark though... we never give it to the high profile established super star, it's always given to someone with a bit of a point to prove. If we'd wanted to continue along that line then we'd have given it to Welbeck and we wouldn't be having this debate, the fact is we didn't. There were options there, would you have held the same objections if Kagawa had accepted it? After all the squad number doesn't change the squad, if Ronaldo came back and we gave him number 45 he'd still be Ronaldo. You're right though, it does take a level of confidence and self belief (misplaced in Owens case) to wear the number 7 shirt. Some how I doubt Valencia will be lacking in that regard, he's just less eager to flaunt it.

Not sure that British record transfer Bryan Robson, League Champion Eric Cantona or United and England regular David Beckham were all that unestablished :D Ronaldo was given it rather than the 28 he requested to challenge him to live up to the expectations. That the same didn't happen in 09 is why I think there are question marks over Valencia's confidence and self belief.

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Not sure that British record transfer Bryan Robson, League Champion Eric Cantona or United and England regular David Beckham were all that unestablished :D Ronaldo was given it rather than the 28 he requested to challenge him to live up to the expectations. That the same didn't happen in 09 is why I think there are question marks over Valencia's confidence and self belief.

You say British transfer record in 1981 like it means something, there were a handful of players going around at that price. Don't try and paint it out to be anything it isn't, he'd only just broken into the England team. Eric Cantona player of 15 games in his League winning season? Or was it the 3 league goals you were alluding to? His next season was a bit better but Leeds were still wanting to get rid, he was anything but established. Beckham had just broken into the England side as well, further enforcing the point that the very obvious choice to continue the 'tradition' of the shirt was Welbeck. We have someone at the club who meets your definition of "worthy" for the number 7 shirt, the manager just doesn't want him to have it.

As for the Valencia issue, maybe the expectations of him weren't that high? Maybe he's impressed everyone? If Valencia lacked confidence then he wouldn't have asked for the number 7 shirt. You can call his self belief misplaced (although I don't think his performances validate that statement in any way) but you can't argue it's existence.

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The success of this will rely on people who like to "buy and sit" on shares.

The people buying can only hope to make money on their purchase by 1) Either selling on the shares for a profit to a 3rd party, 2) Waiting for a takeover of the club when the shares might rocket in value or 3) Wait for a point in the future when the Glazers are flush with cash and want to regain as much percentage of the shares as possible and start buying them up (as majority of these shares will lack voting power, i doubt they will be in a rush to do so).

Makes the shares a hard sell but the decision to go with Jefferies as the "top left" lead underwriter either means that none of the big 10 are impressed by it or they know something that we don't. Hopefully it is the latter and as Jefferies will be staking a lot on this offering, they will do everything to make it work.

Does look a bit desperate that they are going with such a small firm though and that worries me a lot as Jefferies have never led a listing worth more than $250-$300m.

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Seems that Park might be signing for QPR, hope the stories are true. Love the guy but his legs are going and we don't need him as much anymore. Would only rot here next season taking league cup games away from young players.

Also seems that we have bid for Moutinho but Spurs want him and we haven't met the asking price yet so im guessing we might miss out there.

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Not seen it mentioned yet, but Rafael made a pretty strong Brazil Olympic squad. Good for him. Hope they do well.

Sad day if we lose out on a player to bloody Spurs. But with their new manager I can see him going there. Hopefully we're after that kind of player though.

Losing Fryers is hardly the end of the world, as the best future for him here would be squad rotation. But it's a worrying sign that young players are just f-ing off like that, letting their contracts run down. Especially when they are local lads. Sometimes I hate agents so much. Admittedly Ravel hasn't done anything since he left, but it's not fun to lose talents like Ravel, Pogba and now Fryers within a short year. Pogba is obviously the big one. If we get 2-3 million for Fryers though, we can't have too many complaints. I expected the 'usual' 300k, even if he is worth much more than that. Think we're getting pennies for Pogba, which is the really annoying thing.

Such a slow summer now, can't wait to the season kicks off again - even pre-season matches will be good.

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Moutinho would be a great signing, still young at 25 and would be a mainstay in midfield for at least the next 5 years.

With Spurs interested though and Moutinho playing under AVB at Porto it might be a little bit harder to sign him.

Park to QPR is a good deal for both sides imo, Park is past his best and would not get more than 10 starts across all comps next season

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