Leppard Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 He's also the same guy who played Park in central midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 That wasn't entirely illogical until we saw the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 SAF will definitely try it, but it will be a disaster as he will get overrun in a 2 man midfield with ease.The guy is an AM who can also feature out wide but never a CM. I know what he can do. I've been watching him since he was playing for Cerezo Osaka. Just making a suggestion that could get all of our best players on the pitch at the same time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 That wasn't entirely illogical until we saw the results. Indeed. Using a workhorse in midfield to add energy and pressure is a sound strategy. Speaking of strategy, I'm interesting in what you guys think about how much Queiroz actually affected the style of play at United or if you think he was the one who polished SAF's concepts on the training pitch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harryseaess Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Apparently Kagawa has turned down the #7 shirt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hursty2 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Park was put there to track Yaya Toure iirc but it didn't work. Having Kagawa there would at least give Toure something to think about before he goes on those marauding runs from deep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Aye, SAF the tactical incompetent who got us to two Champions League finals and 3 consecutive title wins in recent years. Yawn. how is that in any way related to what he said? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSB Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 The guy is an AM who can also feature out wide but never a CM. Seem to remember saying the same about Anderson. Not entirely sure if I was right or not! Can't recall him having a bad game as an AM mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookieman Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Indeed. Using a workhorse in midfield to add energy and pressure is a sound strategy.Speaking of strategy, I'm interesting in what you guys think about how much Queiroz actually affected the style of play at United or if you think he was the one who polished SAF's concepts on the training pitch? The one weakness of SAF is his tactical nous, definetly room for improvement on this. Queiroz and McLaren to an extent did improve the teams tactical side and the results speak for themselves. I for one would be happy if we signed a new "tactically astute" assistant manager and better medical staff for next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 The one weakness of SAF is his tactical nous, definetly room for improvement on this. Queiroz and McLaren to an extent did improve the teams tactical side and the results speak for themselves. I for one would be happy if we signed a new "tactically astute" assistant manager and better medical staff for next season. I have to completely disagree. While I don't know exactly how influence or not the coaches/assistant managers have had on his tactical game, SAF has constantly shown throughout his managerial career of being in the top half of tactical managers. While he might not be one of the best ever he hardly has a lack of "tactical nous". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leppard Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Sooooo defensive. Jeez. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 These kind of posts annoy me, you don't have any idea what goes on behind the scenes with tactics or the medical side of things. But one thing I do know is that it isn't Phelan's job to do tactics, it is Rene Meulensteen who does that so getting a new assistant won't improve tactics. Not that we aren't easily the best team tactically in the league anyway. We played Rafael and Park in central midfield against Blackburn and lost. Fergusons strength is not letting players get bogged down in tactics, it works well against smaller teams (which is why we picked up 6 points more than City did vs the rest of the league) but gets us unstuck when we play teams who can match is footballing-wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 We played Rafael and Park in central midfield against Blackburn and lost.Fergusons strength is not letting players get bogged down in tactics, it works well against smaller teams (which is why we picked up 6 points more than City did vs the rest of the league) but gets us unstuck when we play teams who can match is footballing-wise. This. In all honesty the tactics might be fine but the personnel choises can be ridiculous. When we have the better team there are rarely big problems but as dion says, it can get messy when we don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 So at what point does tactical fluidity/willing to take the risk becomes tactical stupidity? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 When you are picking players for roles they are in no way suited, probably Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 When you are picking players for roles they are in no way suited, probably Aside from having major injury issues or the odd attempt at a defensive player in central midfield, has this actually been an issue? I'm not being argumentative, I just think some of the negatives mentioned are being quite selective. We beat Arsenal playing the twins on the wings because of injuries and no one brings that up as a tactical joke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 You don't do what we have in Europe without being good tactically. Time and time again we have out thought the opposition rather than out played them. And other than last season we have done brilliant in the league against the big sides.Not sure what you are getting at with the Blackburn game, we were recked with injuries at the time and didn't lose because of the midfield. I'm trying to remember the last time we out-thought a team in the Champions League since 07-09, we've beaten the teams we were supposed to beat mostly and not beaten the ones we shouldn't. When was the last time we beat a team in the Champions League that was better than us? Since Ronaldo left we've played our own game and if it's good enough we've beaten them, if it wasn't they beat us. We lost the Blackburn game because we totally failed to control the match and allowed Blackburn far too many chances, a large part of that was down to the meltdown in midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Because we were far too open and let Blackburn get into positions where they could get set pieces in dangerous postions. Blackburn at home should have been a banker and if we'd played players in their proper positions it would have. How many times do we have to have a defensive crisis, play midfielder in defence, get swamped in midfield and hammered before he realises having a makeshift defence if you dominate in midfield is better than having a makeshift defence, makeshift midfield and getting nowhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Yes, you just get corners at random, you don't have to get the ball into the opposition 3rd at all... plus the fact we had Berbatov marking Yakubu rather than Ferdinand as he should have been. We had Ferdinand and Giggs who he was resting for "harder" games when he shouldn't have been, generally the whole thing was a shambles, he even got his subs wrong which is pretty rare for him. You still haven't mentioned any of these times we've out-thought the opposition in the Champions League in the last few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 And oddly enough with 62% possession the ball was in our half the same amount of time it was in theirs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Well if you can find a decent example I will obviously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 And oddly enough with 62% possession the ball was in our half the same amount of time it was in theirs. I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous argument against being over run in midfield. Admittedly I can't recall the way the game played out but it's quite possible that a lot of that was the either team passing it around between them in the middle of the pitch without having any time of penetration. While I agree with you that United haven't really "out thought" teams in a while, I also don't think you can focus on a period of a season where there were a lot of injuries as a way of pointing out the weaknesses of SAF's tactical side. Attempting to play two passers of the ball in midfield and a poacher up front in Hernandez versus Barcelona in the final? Absolutely. An attempt to keep the injury weakened Ferdinand and then almost 40 Giggs fresh during an injury crisis? A bit of a stretch. And in regards to my own question. I've seen SAF as a far more proactive tactician than anything else. While the odd game as him being reactive (4-5-1 vs the stronger Arsenal sides for example), he doesn't really out think teams on a general basis. More so he looks to find a tactical framework which will make a team overly stronger than the opposition and then let the players make it happen, which is why sometimes there are some stinkers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous argument against being over run in midfield. Admittedly I can't recall the way the game played out but it's quite possible that a lot of that was the either team passing it around between them in the middle of the pitch without having any time of penetration. Who said anything about being over-run, I said we failed to control it and we had a bit of a meltdown. We had plenty of the ball but no way of keeping it in Blackburns half to apply pressure, there was lots of passing between defenders and very little forward momentum. I've always seen Ferguson as a guy who has teams who play their own game regardless of the opposition, very rarely does he do anything special before the match. Against weaker teams this usually works if everyone is fit, against stronger teams it doesn't fare as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Can we please sign somebody to end this nonsense? Or worry about how Young has looked absolutely woeful for most of the Euros? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
football_master_94 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Or worry about how Young has looked absolutely woeful for most of the Euros? It means he's going to have a blinder of a season, this coming season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 It means he's going to have a blinder of a season, this coming season Thankfully he'll be playing in a better team during the season than he is now so that's a disctinct possibility Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 to be fair he didn't get much help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpillBlood Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 to be fair he didn't get much help. Tbf he was just poor. The team in general were but Young looked awful. Hopefully a rest will do his right and he'll be crackin' next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Young was awful. Welbeck has one of the worst touches. Though i've never watched him properly, might have had a bad few games. Young missing was good though, diving little cheating scumbag. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Rooney was ***** too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangaea Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Terrible display from everybody really, hard to play well from midfield and up when nobody is interested (or told) to move out from your own box (which is only a slight exaggeration). Perhaps the only setup that could have worked given the players England have, but still meant it was agonizingly boring to watch. Off to a well-deserved holiday now, so come back rested and hungry to grab number 20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 It's almost as if parking the bus leads to attacking players becoming isolated, having no options and therefore constantly under pressure which leads to heavy touches and trying to overdo things... All of the attacking players were naff, it was the system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahno6 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Thought Welbeck was one of England's best players of the tournament tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aderow Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Rooney was ***** too. +1 on that one mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Thought Welbeck was one of England's best players of the tournament tbh. Thought he was isolated and struggled to get involved, only players to come out of the tournament with their stock improved were Lescott and Gerrard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I don't think you can take anything out of that tournament if you're an England player bar Gerrard or Hart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 Rooney looks like he needs to do some exercise though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manunited_fan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thought he was isolated and struggled to get involved, only players to come out of the tournament with their stock improved were Lescott and Gerrard. Definitely agree with this. Both were brilliant throughout and I thought Cole, Terry and Johnson were brilliant tonight as well. Definitely thought the system let us down. Need to be more flexible and bulk up the midfield. Thought we might have learnt from the Germany world cup game that we need numbers in midfield. Both Young and Rooney were shackled really. Couldn't do a lot with what they were given. Hopefully they'll be back on form for United at the beginning of the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Definitely agree with this. Both were brilliant throughout and I thought Cole, Terry and Johnson were brilliant tonight as well. Definitely thought the system let us down. Need to be more flexible and bulk up the midfield. Thought we might have learnt from the Germany world cup game that we need numbers in midfield.Both Young and Rooney were shackled really. Couldn't do a lot with what they were given. Hopefully they'll be back on form for United at the beginning of the season. Terry brilliant? the man who created the best chances for the Italians? Are you having a laugh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Bestie7 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The problem with England was the "defend deep and counter quickly" lacked the ability to counter quickly. There wasn't enough freedom of attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manunited_fan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Terry brilliant? the man who created the best chances for the Italians? Are you having a laugh? Also the one who stopped a lot of their chances to be fair. You're right there have been loads of times throughout the tournament he's not been with it and still don't think he should have gone over Ferdinand but some of those last ditch blocks he made were pretty good. Granted had he been in a better position to begin with the situation might not have arose but ah well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 So he was brilliant because he managed to clear up his own mistakes while looking fancy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manunited_fan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I did say in my post that a lot of what he cleared up were his own mistakes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Yes, and you said he was brilliant? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddidiodion Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Brilliant might be pushing it, but I thought Terry did well enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manunited_fan Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Brilliant might be pushing it, but I thought Terry did well enough. That is fair enough. I'll retract my use of the umbrella term brilliant. Generally thought that the defensive all round were lucky but fought proper hard for that game. Terry's always been a last ditch blocker rather than a solid positional defender anyway. The blocks are usually a lot easier to remember than the mistakes that lead to them as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldberg Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Talking about England in the United thread. Would never have happened back in the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizzy Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Iceman, can you fix the forum please? When you click on the Utd thread, it takes you into the England one. What date is our first friendly? does anyone have a link to the fixtures for outlook, got it last year. very handy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham_aka_stam Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 It's almost as if parking the bus leads to attacking players becoming isolated, having no options and therefore constantly under pressure which leads to heavy touches and trying to overdo things... All of the attacking players were naff, it was the system. Dion, you've been talking a lot of sense lately, I'm worried about you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icelander83 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Iceman, can you fix the forum please? When you click on the Utd thread, it takes you into the England one.What date is our first friendly? does anyone have a link to the fixtures for outlook, got it last year. very handy. Err isn't happening for me so no idea how/what to fix? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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