Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Iniesta Born: 1984 League Appearances 2002–03 6 Apps 2003–04 11 Apps 2004–05 37 Apps 2005-1984=21 Checked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Eugene was clearly talking about comparing Xavi and Ramsey. Yeah, sorry Eugene, I didn't see you just mention Xavi there. But, even still, what does it matter if they are from a differnet generation or skills? It is still a fact that FM, potentially, rates Ramsey above Xavi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 No.You said Ian Wright was the best striker of his generation. You also said David Platt was the best midfielder. Just highlighting better Strikers and Midfielders. Okay a couple of full backs and a goalkeeper, but the rest stand. Wright and Platt were never the best. They were World Class, after a bad start to their careers. Deny they were World Class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Iniesta Born: 1984League Appearances 2002–03 6 Apps 2003–04 11 Apps 2004–05 37 Apps 2005-1984=21 Checked My maths way out then, sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Yeah, sorry Eugene, I didn't see you just mention Xavi there.But, even still, what does it matter if they are from a differnet generation or skills? It is still a fact that FM, potentially, rates Ramsey above Xavi. No - it rates Ramsey as a -10. Between 170 and 200. A different save will result in different PA. He's certainly not below 170? Given the standard in the game. But time will tell if he is. He could be a 165-170. But we don't know yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 They were World Class, after a bad start to their careers. Deny they were World Class. Best of their generation? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 No - it rates Ramsey as a -10. Between 170 and 200.A different save will result in different PA. He's certainly not below 170? Given the standard in the game. But time will tell if he is. He could be a 165-170. But we don't know yet. Does it potentially rate him above Xavi? Even Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Look - I doubt after such late start to their careers that either Wright or Platt actually reached their potential. I reckon I took them a long time to reach their peak, which in my view would be around 180 in FM terms. But it wasn't until they were 23/24 that they reached their CA of this value (in FM terms). And was unlikely given their development to reach their true potential. Ramsey, he's just one player in the game. I just know that some players are known more for their performances than they are for their goals or assists. Like Xavi and Iniesta, a fine example. But they didn't play regualarly until they were 21. Ramsey is at that age now. He might not get goals, or assists. But he MIGHT be as good as Xavi or Iniesta. I'm not saying he will. But the game doesn't either. Some players reach potential, some don't. Some have a high Potential that they never reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Best of their generation? Top 10 I reckon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Top 10 I reckon. Sorry, no don't agree with you in either case. I could name 20 stirkers of the same generation that were much better. Better not say anything about Pratt as I never rated him anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Look - I doubt after such late start to their careers that either Wright or Platt actually reached their potential. I reckon I took them a long time to reach their peak, which in my view would be around 180 in FM terms. But it wasn't until they were 23/24 that they reached their CA of this value (in FM terms). And was unlikely given their development to reach their true potential. Ramsey, he's just one player in the game. I just know that some players are known more for their performances than they are for their goals or assists. Like Xavi and Iniesta, a fine example. But they didn't play regualarly until they were 21. Ramsey is at that age now. He might not get goals, or assists. But he MIGHT be as good as Xavi or Iniesta. I'm not saying he will. But the game doesn't either. Some players reach potential, some don't. Some have a high Potential that they never reach. I will agree to disagree with you. But I will bookmark the page for 10 years time (if we and SI are still here). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Go for it. It's likely we'll disagree. It's like you saying you like one set of music, and I don't. It's not that you're wrong. It's just I don't agree with your taste in music. I'd never tell anyone their music choice was crap. I'd just say "It's not for me". But we'd likely agree on some songs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I will agree to disagree with you. But I will bookmark the page for 10 years time (if we and SI are still here). How can you disagree with a fact? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCIAG Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Does it potentially rate him above Xavi? Even Messi. It potentially potentially rates him above Messi, it potentially potentially rates him as no better than Carrick or Cambiasso. I don't think Ramsey is very likely to be a genuine great like Xavi. There is a small possibility, but more likely he'll just be very, very good. I like negative PAs because they give a range of possible PAs, I'd like it even more if the likes of Ramsey were more likely to receive a PA at the low end of their range, and if players were less likely to come close to their PAs. When Van Persie was Ramsey's age, did anyone think he'd be the second best striker in the world? Not counting Ronaldo as he is still more of a winger. Maybe some people did, but he was largely overshadowed by Arsenal's other attacking players, aside from one brilliant goal against Charlton. Maybe he had a 1/20 chance of being as good as he is now, maybe 1/10, maybe even 1/5. He made it. For that reason, I'd like talented players like Ramsey but also others around the world to have the chance to become 180-ish players rather than have a PA set in the 160s or 170s. The problem now is that as well as the system not being ideal, Ramsey is the exception rather than the rule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 How can you disagree with a fact? Which part did you feel was a fact? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 It potentially potentially rates him above Messi, it potentially potentially rates him as no better than Carrick or Cambiasso. I don't think Ramsey is very likely to be a genuine great like Xavi. There is a small possibility, but more likely he'll just be very, very good. I like negative PAs because they give a range of possible PAs, I'd like it even more if the likes of Ramsey were more likely to receive a PA at the low end of their range, and if players were less likely to come close to their PAs. When Van Persie was Ramsey's age, did anyone think he'd be the second best striker in the world? Not counting Ronaldo as he is still more of a winger. Maybe some people did, but he was largely overshadowed by Arsenal's other attacking players, aside from one brilliant goal against Charlton. Maybe he had a 1/20 chance of being as good as he is now, maybe 1/10, maybe even 1/5. He made it. For that reason, I'd like talented players like Ramsey but also others around the world to have the chance to become 180-ish players rather than have a PA set in the 160s or 170s. The problem now is that as well as the system not being ideal, Ramsey is the exception rather than the rule. Couldn't agree more but at the moment it is the reason I think Ramsey having a -10 is wrong. If he has it then there should be a whole load more youngsters given a -10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Eugene, can I point out that David Platt was playing Division 1 football by the time he was 21, this was after his spell at Crewe following his release from Manchester United, he was hardly late in getting to the top tier of English football & you need to get past the myth that he was rescued after a decade on the football scrapheap. Also & this is aimed at both you & davehanson, since when did the definition of a players ability boil down to their stats? As has been mentioned in the Moneyball thread football is probably one of the least stat friendly sports out there & all this comparing of player X at 21 to player Y at 21 based on goals/appearances is if I'm honest quite laughable. Ramsey has bags of natural talent but a -10 PA player? Nope, -9 at best & even then I'm probably being rather generous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 There's a small possibility that a player was going to be as good as Pele but it happened. Can't you see - some players excel way past their expectations sometimes. Why can't Ramsey? And he has NOT got the potential to be better than Messi in EVERY game. He has a PA of -10 which is between 170 and 200. No surprise Messi is 199. In every save, Ramsey will not be better or have the potential to be better than Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi. Only in some saves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Eugene, can I point out that David Platt was playing Division 1 football by the time he was 21, this was after a 3 year spell at Crewe after his release from Manchester United, he was hardly late in getting to the top tier of English football Also & this is aimed at both you & davehanson, since when did the definition of a players ability boil down to their stats? As has been mentioned in the Moneyball thread football is probably one of the least stat friendly sports out there & all this comparing of player X at 21 to player Y at 21 is if I'm honest quite laughable. Ramsey has bags of natural talent but a -10 PA player? Nope, -9 at best & even then I'm probably being rather generous. He was a late bloomer to the top division, Platt. All we have is a player stats. Appearances is really what I'm getting at. Nobody knew Iniesta or Xavi would be top players. But Ramsey has played roughly identical if not more league games than them. Ramsey might be a world class player, he might not. All I know is he's playing for a top team at Arsenal. Why not a -10? What makes you say that. Maybe his performances in the next few years will change that up or down or whatever. But for now, he's doing as well "statiscally" as Xavi and Iniesta. Can I point out - I don't think he'll be a world class player. Or better than Xavi or Iniesta. But I don't see why potentially he cannot be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I always thought that 150 was the mark of an excellent top division player, giving someone a 170-200 range pretty much guarantees that they will be a world class player in FM, with a -10 he's pretty much nailed on to be a 176-194 player as he is equally unlikely to be a 170-175 as he is to be a 195+ He was a late bloomer to the top division, Platt. No he wasn't & any suggestion otherwise is utterly ludicrous, since when was making your Div 1 (top division in 1988) debut at the age of 21 a late start? Were you even around & watching the game on a regular basis in the late 80's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 There's a small possibility that a player was going to be as good as Pele but it happened. Can't you see - some players excel way past their expectations sometimes. Why can't Ramsey? And he has NOT got the potential to be better than Messi in EVERY game. He has a PA of -10 which is between 170 and 200. No surprise Messi is 199. In every save, Ramsey will not be better or have the potential to be better than Xavi, Iniesta, or Messi. Only in some saves. Oh my head hurts. He has the potential to be the best player on the game. Regardless of what the game will set him up as when you load it up. That can't be right. You ask why can't Ramsey? I would say I have seen nothing of him in an Arsenal shirt that would justify him having the potential to be a great player. I have seen honest, solid play, and based on that I would say his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker. I would also say he has got so many games due to Arsenal's lack of options in central midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Nope - giving them a PA of 170-200 means they can make it to that mark. It doesn't mean they will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker. Those players, imo, are ajoke. Carrick, Milner, Parker? Ramsey is already better than those. That's my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Carrick imo had the potential. But he never reached it. Milner, same Parker. Ha. Seriously? Ramesy is better than all 3 put together. I'm not an Arsenal fan. I'm not English and I'm not Welsh. I'm not biased. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Those players, imo, are ajoke. Carrick, Milner, Parker? Ramsey is already better than those. That's my opinion. Okay-dokey then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Carrick imo had the potential. But he never reached it.Milner, same Parker. Ha. Seriously? Ramesy is better than all 3 put together. I'm not an Arsenal fan. I'm not English and I'm not Welsh. I'm not biased. Carrick, who has run United's midfield this year and been one of their best players. Parker who has captained England and Spurs, and been bloody good for both. Milner hasn't been great this year I'll admit. But, then you said Wright was the best player of his generation when he didn't start at Arsenal til he was what? Milner is only 25 so going by that he could have a PA of 200 as well? Don't see why not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Carrick? Sweet jeebus. Part-time footballer Parker? Once captained England under a dismal time for England, no manager, and a part-time manager afraid to pick a real captain. 31 years of age - 11 caps - JOKE Milner started playing at top level when he was 16! At the time he was heralded as the next best thing. Far from where Wright or PLatt started. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 But sounds very similar to Ramsey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Dave, I've not heard one iota that would sway why Ramsey does not deserve a decent PA in FM12? Not one iota. I've defended to the hilt, examples of players, from 1915 - Present day. Please give some evidence to WHY he shouldn't have a high PA? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 But sounds very similar to Ramsey. And Walcott, and Pele... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 He shouldn't have a -10 because other players of similar ability do not have -10. In my opinion either Ramsey doesn't get it or a load of other players are given -10 to match him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Walcott & Pele placed together in context, Walcott is a one trick pony who will be no better that Shaun Wright-Phillips who himself is a very, very lucky boy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Carrick? Sweet jeebus. Part-time footballerParker? Once captained England under a dismal time for England, no manager, and a part-time manager afraid to pick a real captain. 31 years of age - 11 caps - JOKE Milner started playing at top level when he was 16! At the time he was heralded as the next best thing. Far from where Wright or PLatt started. Right, well I ain't gonna keep going at this, arguing with someone who thinks: Carrick is a part time footballer Platt stated his carrer late in the lower divisions (he spent 3 years outside the top flight BEFORE he was 21. He made his England debut at 21/22) Platt and Ian Wright were the best footballers (in their respective positions) of their generation. Anything I have left out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 He shouldn't have a -10 because other players of similar ability do not have -10. In my opinion either Ramsey doesn't get it or a load of other players are given -10 to match him. Who says their ability is similar? Name 21 year olds in top 4 Prem teams with similar ability? Walcott & Pele paced together in context, Walcott is a one trick pony who will be no better that Shaun Wright-Phillips. Exactly - it's not a good match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Anything I have left out? Yeh, that you're wrong that a player of 21 years of age can't at sometime, based on relative stats to both Xavi and Iniesta, to be a world class player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Dave,I've not heard one iota that would sway why Ramsey does not deserve a decent PA in FM12? Not one iota. I've defended to the hilt, examples of players, from 1915 - Present day. Please give some evidence to WHY he shouldn't have a high PA? I have already said that he deserves a PA of about 160 ish. That IS a decent PA. What he doesn't deserve is a PA that potentially makes him the greatest player on the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Jack Wilshere, Phil Jones and Danny Welbeck. That's just in the EPL, I am sure there are many more across Europe, do you think Ramsey is the most talented player under 21 in the game? Personally I would give Ramsey a -9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I have already said that he deserves a PA of about 160 ish. That IS a decent PA. What he doesn't deserve is a PA that potentially makes him the greatest player on the game. WHY though? He has the same stats as Xavi and Iniesta at that age. Would you say the same of Xavi and Iniesta 10 or 6 years ago? WHY? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Jack Wilshere, Phil Jones and Danny Welbeck. That's just in the EPL, I am sure there are many more across Europe, do you think Ramsey is the most talented player under 21 in the game? Wilshere, he's good, no reason why he can't be best player in the World. Jones, another player capable of making it Welbeck - nah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Yeh, that you're wrong that a player of 21 years of age can't at sometime, based on relative stats to both Xavi and Iniesta, to be a world class player. You ask why can't Ramsey? I would say I have seen nothing of him in an Arsenal shirt that would justify him having the potential to be a great player. I have seen honest, solid play, and based on that I would say his ability will lead him to become someone like Carrick/Milner/Parker. I would also say he has got so many games due to Arsenal's lack of options in central midfield. Tell me what you see in Ramsey that leads you to believe he will be world class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I asked you first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 It doesn't matter how his appearance statistics compare to players of 5, 10 or 50 years ago, it's about how he compares to his peers today & on that front he is overrated by FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Wilshere, he's good, no reason why he can't be best player in the World.Jones, another player capable of making it Welbeck - nah. That's what I am saying, in my opinion if Ramsey is a -10 then other youngsters should be as well. Because they are not a -10 then Ramsey shouldn't be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I already said why he has the ability. He has already played the same amount of games for Arsenal as Xavi and Iniesta has played for Barca, by the age of 21. Fact he keeps getting picked? Because he's good? I've said this already. AGAIN, not heard why you think he's not good enough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 That's what I am saying, in my opinion if Ramsey is a -10 then other youngsters should be as well. Because they are not a -10 then Ramsey shouldn't be. I've said before (if you search the forums) that I think PA shouldn't be so precise. But it is. And Ramseys PA is set at -10. But only for a few more months. If someone thinks it shouldn't be then it should be brought up in the Date forums. But for now - he has a good potential. It's only for a few more months. New game arrives November/December. Bring up issues with players in Data forums. But I've not heard a solid argument to why his PA should be lowered. Or why other players PA's should be hired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I already said why he has the ability. He has already played the same amount of games for Arsenal as Xavi and Iniesta has played for Barca, by the age of 21. Fact he keeps getting picked? Because he's good? I've said this already. AGAIN, not heard why you think he's not good enough? Okay, he is good. I don't think anyone has said he isn't. But he is getting games for Arsenal who don't exactly have the greatest midfield, at the moment, in the world. If Arsenal had Viera, Overmars, Pires, Ljunberg & Gilberto do you think he would have played as many games as he had done? Games to be honest are irrelevant, it is what you do in them, the ability and potential you show that deifnes how people percieve you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 If you're insistent on comparing past with present how strong was the Arsenal midfield this season in comparison to the Barcelona midfield that Xavi & Iniesta broke into? As you're using match appearances then you need to consider the standard of players at the Catalan club compared to the pool Arsene has to choose from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Okay, he is good. I don't think anyone has said he isn't. But he is getting games for Arsenal who don't exactly have the greatest midfield, at the moment, in the world. If Arsenal had Viera, Overmars, Pires, Ljunberg & Gilberto do you think he would have played as many games as he had done? Games to be honest are irrelevant, it is what you do in them, the ability and potential you show that deifnes how people percieve you. Do you think he might have tried harder? Or less hard to break into the team? It's an impossible question to answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehanson Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Do you think he might have tried harder? Or less hard to break into the team? It's an impossible question to answer. I ain't sure ain't that has to do with ability to be honest. On current ability would he have played more or less games with that kind of midfield compared to now? I would say definately less. In fact Wenger said that he played more games than he would have liked him to play since coming back from his injury due to a lack of other options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurf Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Is that a fact? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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