Can you be successful with a 442?

[Obaaa]

Has anyone put together a successful 442 formation on FM12?

I know the formation has lost popularity in real life with the emergence of the 433/4231 but surely 442 can still work at a high level. I have played six months with Newcastle with mixed results, the main problem seems to be in attack where I just can't seem to create many chances.

Is there anything that a manager can do to the 442 to make it a lot more potent? What do you guys think?

[Falahk]

I cant really say that im an expert on the formation since I mostly watch spanish and italian football, so it was very much trial and error for me, and since I was playing a system that is somewhat alian to me I did ofcorse make some useless transfers, looking back at it

would you consider this good enough?:

END OF SEASON UPDATE 2011/2012

Premier league:

pretty pleased with how this part went, we slowly grinded our way forward, got a bit lucky at times, and droped some easy points at times, and almost lost our gripp of the last CL spot in the very last round by drawing to Bolton

FA cup:

managed to overcome Blackburn, Wolves and Liverpool. before going out to City in a match I thought I had won with a late goal to make it 2-1 in the 85th min, but ofcorse it was not to be after Millner equlised in the 89th, and Micha Richards finished me of in the 92nd

Carling cup:

made it all the way to the final, and just like mentioned, lost it to Wolves, with Spurs in the semi being the hardest obstical to overcome

Europa league:

went unbeaten through a group containing Shalke, Anderlecht and Maribor, then I managed to narrowly beat Leverkusen 4-3 on agregate before being knocked out by Lazio on away goals (1-1)

Transfers:

I was a bit more active then I wanted to be, but injuries ment I had to make a couple of loan moves in january, that said, Owen was a compleat failure thought and a perfect example of me not taking into consideration that I was working with a very different tactical system then I normaly do

[Obaaa]

Very impressive.

How was your Stoke team set up in terms of players and individual roles? I'd like to know a bit more about how you achieved such a high position with a relatively poor side.

[Falahk]

im not sure if its really that impressive, seeing that I did not win anything, but anyway the first thing to keep in mind is to start of with stuff that would make sense form a real life perspective, and when that dont work, tweak it slightly, you should also be relastic about your goals, when I make a tactic I would normaly aim for conceding about 0,7 goals a game and score about 2....that brings a certin amount of consistancy to fall back on and means that I will never really underachive or do dramatic nosedives when the ai react to my growing reputation

I will try to explain the basic set up and probably also why I made certin choses, and I will put up the tactic for you to have a closer look at the end of this post since theres a couple of tweaked individual instructions I cant really recall right now, its also worth mentioning that everything is not working as perfectly as I want it to (the crossing in particular, sometimes the wingers wait to long before they make a cross and sometimes they corss before the strikers arrive in the box, but then again this part is difficult to get right)

Team instructions goes as follows:

Rigid (if you want fluid passing triangles, then pick a different formation, 4-4-2 does not in my oppinion have enough natural depth to rotate around in defense or having players making random burst forward, there just simply wont be enough players that can move in and cover those gaps)

Counter

More direct passing

Zonal marking (thats what I feel comfy with and grasp how to set up)

Float Crosses

Focus passing down both flanks (wing play is a key aspect of playing the 4-4-2, so it makes sense)

offside trap is on (I have played with the offside trap for long time and when you break forward on the counter there will be a bit off space in behind, even if the teams starting possition is relativly deep)

the rest is the default TC setings

Player roles goes as follows (and like mentioned some, but not many individual instructions have been tampered with so you will have to look at the tactic for those):

GK: gk/defend

DR: fb/defend

DC: dc/defend

DC: dc/defend

DL: fb/defend

MR: winger/attack

MC: deep playmaker/defend

MC: central mid/defend

ML winger/attack

FCr: advanced forward

FCl: target man/attack

For footing I want the CBl, LB and ML to be have a the left foot as there strongest foot, the MC's dont mather that much in this regard while CBr, RB, MR and both forwards should have right as there strongest foot, hell I could probably pen a full article on a subject like this one if I wasnt so lazy, which gets us to the next point, the reason to why my forward duo is set up in the manner it is, and its a rather simple one really that im not sure if anyone else have payed attention to or mentioned on these forums, its a lot more common to face a CB duo form any team you will come accross that have two right footed players in it, this means that both of them will move backwards in a similar manner and that they will shuffle slightly to right of the pitch when they move backwards, for this reason the FCr have a slightly larger pocket of space to move into between the cb and the fullback, hence he is the one moving into channals and playing as an advanced forward (and also why he should have a strong right foot to make sure that he moves into the mentioned space), the target man is on attack since its very possible he will be a tad on the slow side and hence needs to be closer to the goal in order to be effective

for the midfield its pretty simple really, I want to have the wingers move forward and do the link up play, and hopefully have them land a cross somewhere, while the central mids keep shape and dont move way to far out of possition (way to many times have I seen ppl go with an advance playmaker/attack or support and a ball winner/defend, or something along those lines and not take into accont that those two roles are both very attack minded, and indeed those roles dont, atleast IMO, offer enough protection for the back four when you are playing a 4 man midfield)

on that Stoke save I may have signed fullbacks but that was probably a mistake since I still ended up with Huth playing rb after a while, and Wilson/Higginbotham sloted in on lb, and to be perfectly honest, it worked better that way, if I was to have a proper go with the 4-4-2 as my main tactic again I would play with 4 cb's in defense

and finaly the linky

[walliver]

I've taken Elgin City up from the Scottish Third to the SPL using a 4-5-1/4-3-3 and a 4-4-2. The 4-4-2 is set to counter and balanced, and has become more used in recent times. I've finished 4th in the SPL twice in a row (for comparison, my annual wage bill is around 600k, while Celtic's is 23.5m), the second season included getting to a cup final and taking Lille to extra time n the final qualifying round for the Europa League.

[Falahk]

I've taken Elgin City up from the Scottish Third to the SPL using a 4-5-1/4-3-3 and a 4-4-2. The 4-4-2 is set to counter and balanced, and has become more used in recent times. I've finished 4th in the SPL twice in a row (for comparison, my annual wage bill is around 600k, while Celtic's is 23.5m), the second season included getting to a cup final and taking Lille to extra time n the final qualifying round for the Europa League.

how much would those 600k be in weekly wage?

[brussels]

for me a major disadvantage of the 442 in the game is that is not easy to find decent ML/MR, you would need to retrain a fullback/wingback or a winger

I have been using a variation of the 442 with AMR/AMR (instead of MR/ML) as back-up tactic for a couple of seasons but didn't really find it useful, so I decided to move my AMC to a ST position in a 4231DM (resulting in a "442" with 2 DM and AMR/AML).

I agree with Falahk mainly about direct passing, focus passing down both wings and float crosses, plus having a good target man, otherwise you will waste the crosses. I would even say that the poacher may also have good aerial capability. Make sure you set hug touchline for wingers on player instructions otherwise they will tend to drift to the center and crowd the space of MCs and STs

The fullbacks... my only concern about using a CB as fullback is that when you manage low-ish sides CBs tend to be slow and have low stamina, so you gotta pay attention if the opposition have good/pacey wingers, especially if you have a high d-line and try to play offside.

With a 442 I think it's more interesting to play defensively/counter sitting deep, so there's little space between CBs and MCs and you can play quick long balls foward to your 2 STs.

For tactics in which you want to dominate the game I think 4231 or 451/433 is better. Whenever I try to attack with 2 strikers I'm usually not very successful, it's better to have an extra midfielder with attacking abilities, rather than 2 strikers, IMHO.

[Falahk]

had a go at dusting of the 4-4-2 for a game on my Athletic save, my squad aint really built for it to be perfectly honest, but I still manged to beat Villarreal 4-1 at there place in a very scrapy game (pretty much like expected since I dont have full familarity with the tactic, and well the XI I picked....)

[achilles-the-victorious]

(My) Keys to 4-4-2:

You are using a tactic that tries to cut off distribution from opposition CBs to CMs (2 forwards), and cuts off the link between fullbacks and wingers (LM and RM). That leaves central midfield to be shut down, which I will do by having my 2 central mids closing down the opposition CMs all the time. Then you want to put the opposing wingers on the weaker foot, because they are a very important attacking outlet (kinda assuming its 4-4-2 vs 4-4-2), and mark at least one of the strikers (possibly the more plodding, powerful one). I use a average or slightly deep line, and average width, and play with either a slow tempo or average tempo (with short or mixed passing, respectively).

On offense my 4-4-2 uses the LM in the LW position (he's at LW in defense too, but not considered key, ob). This helps give the formation that cutting edge, a real threat to the defense. I like him to hug the touchline so that when he pulls the fullback out there is no real recovery to help teammates possible. But clearly the LW is a crucial aspect of my 4-4-2 on attack, so he needs to be a class individual (mine at his peak: 18 determination, 17 pace, 19 acceleration, 17 balance, 18 agility, very good crossing and passing, 16 off the ball, 16 technique).

I groomed him from 17 years of age!

The fullbacks being able to get forward is important, your striker partnership is important, and so is your midfield partnership. If one guy can pass but not tackle (playmaker?), guess what, you should look to field a mid who can tackle (and win aerial challenges) but isn't a great passer, alongside him (destroyer/ballwinner).

My forwards aren't always great in the air, but sure are quick, hence my average to deep line leaves room behind the opposition defence for them to attack. And the winger whipping crosses in (because he's so good) the ball can go to feet, or we can win a corner. On the corner I send my towers of power (2 massive CBs) up, and attack the near and far post.

[achilles-the-victorious]

Also, don't force your team to play 4-4-2 against 4-5-1, you will likely regret it (unless they are very low quality), because their DMC has a clear line to the lone striker.

[PeeKay]

The way Falahk has the 4-4-2 setup is almost out the book. Normally, one of the MC's is a Box to Box midfielder and a Poacher instead of an Advanced Forward but the rest is how it is suggested to setup a 4-4-2.

Last of season Man U had a fluid 4-4-2 where Rooney dropped into midifeld and it worked all the way to the CL final where Barca showed them why not to play 4-4-2 against them (another mistake by SAF). I am not sure if anyone managed to recreate that tactic for FM12 but I would think thats the future of the 4-4-2.

[brussels]

now that I think of it, achilles has a point, and maybe to use a 442 you have to think about balanced partnerships a lot more than with other tactics

with most other tactics you can somehow set up partnerships of 3, with a 442 most partnerships are 2 players, and also a good point about not sticking to assimetric positions and using one of the wingers in the AMR or AML positions

[achilles-the-victorious]

I pondered using the LW vs the LM for some time, and then figured it was worth having a player do less on defence, but much more dangerous in offense. Also, it allows me to PLAN on the opposition attacking down their right flank, and I figure a far post cross is more dangerous than near post, so I put my biggest, most aerially dominant CB in the right CB slot. Of course it can be changed depending on how the opposition line up (target man in the right striker slot, for e.g.).

But if I play against a team using the 4-5-1, or 4-1-4-1, I will move the least important player both offensively and defensively into the DMc position, which for me tends to be the RM. It allows me to basically match the opposition through the center of the park, leaves my right flank a bit exposed (but there is still a RB, and the MC and DMc should obviously help out), and allows me to keep 2 men up top (along w/ a LW). Three men attacking from advanced positions, at pace, thats a very dangerous, direct threat waiting for any team that dares send men forward against my squad.

now that I think of it, achilles has a point, and maybe to use a 442 you have to think about balanced partnerships a lot more than with other tactics

with most other tactics you can somehow set up partnerships of 3, with a 442 most partnerships are 2 players, and also a good point about not sticking to assimetric positions and using one of the wingers in the AMR or AML positions

[furiousuk]

I've just reintroduced the 442 as an option and I usually flit between these two (very basic) setups

The first one is pretty basic with wingers, an MCa and MCd and a creator/finisher combo up top.

The second one is slightly more interesting with playmakers on the wing who cut inside to try and occupy the space vacated by the 2 deeper lying midfielders. Again there is a creator/finisher combo up top but I want the creator to really be free to do what he wants, sometimes it plays out like a 4231 and at other times it looks like a kind-of 4222. (I've missed out up arrows on the FB's but they are often given plenty of license to get forward).

Either way, I've had good success with both types of 442. I don't use it that often but I don't see why it wouldn't work well as your primary tactic - I've used it in a fair range of situations to give my young right out-and-out winger a workout and it's been good.

As with any tactic really it requires the right people in the right places to be a success.

[Falahk]

The way Falahk has the 4-4-2 setup is almost out the book. Normally, one of the MC's is a Box to Box midfielder and a Poacher instead of an Advanced Forward but the rest is how it is suggested to setup a 4-4-2.

advanced forward and poacher is pretty much exactly the same role in the TC, I think the only difference with the team setings im using is that the advanced forward have through balls set to mixed and hence have a bit more liberty in terms of passing, the player type I would use for this role might differ slightly from the classic big man/little man combo thought, when its possible I like to have a well rounded, resonably tall and hard working player for the advanced forward role, possibly a bit in the mold of Gaizka Toquero, for the MC defend role I mostly used Wilson Palacios when I played Stoke and have employed Illaramendi in that role for my last few games I played 4-4-2 with Athletic so maybe its not massivly far of from a box to box type of role, but like mentioned, when I do 4-4-2 I like my team to keep shape, particularly against teams that outnumber me in the center

Last of season Man U had a fluid 4-4-2 where Rooney dropped into midifeld and it worked all the way to the CL final where Barca showed them why not to play 4-4-2 against them (another mistake by SAF). I am not sure if anyone managed to recreate that tactic for FM12 but I would think thats the future of the 4-4-2.

tbh I dont think the formation in itself was the the problam here, it was probably more the approch and a lack of suitable players to even have a chanse to stand up against barca, United got outmatched not only technicaly, but also physicaly by the workrate of Pep's team

[Falahk]

furiousuk: your secound approch look a bit similar to how Pellegrini lined up his Villarreal team a couple of years ago, was that the main source of insperation? Pellegrini also had his two forwards drifft wide using the fantastic movment of Rossi and Nilmar to compensate for the lack of width produced by both wide mids moving inside

im honestly not sure if its the best approch to use irl or in the game (I have never really got it to work on fm for one), but it was intresting and entertaining to watch, much considering the gung-ho style of football Pellegrini like his teams to play

[däkkä]

The second one is slightly more interesting with playmakers on the wing who cut inside to try and occupy the space vacated by the 2 deeper lying midfielders. Again there is a creator/finisher combo up top but I want the creator to really be free to do what he wants, sometimes it plays out like a 4231 and at other times it looks like a kind-of 4222. (I've missed out up arrows on the FB's but they are often given plenty of license to get forward).

I've been meaning to try this out. Imo it's exactly how Man City how played recently. Touré and Barry sitting deep, Nasri and Silva on the flanks, cutting inside, Agüero looking to get behind the centre-backs and Tévez dropping deep and creating.

What kind of roles do you use in the midfield?

[furiousuk]

furiousuk: your secound approch look a bit similar to how Pellegrini lined up his Villarreal team a couple of years ago, was that the main source of insperation?

Yes I think so, it's been a while since I first put it together in FM and I since I've re-used it I've tweaked from the old tactic rather than started fresh but I'm pretty sure the idea was from an article on Pellegrini and Villarreal. I've never seen them play so it would of been purely from the article and then developed in FM.

It worked pretty well as I was getting promoted up to the Premiership, whereby I left it behind in favour of sole striker formations but I've recently revisited it in my save to decent result. I use it fairly sparingly but it's pretty entertaining and I like the movement of the wingers tucking in and having (hopefully) lots of space to create in.

Similarly to what you've said about gung-ho Pellegrini I use it mainly as an attacking threat although I've found it's fairly stable in FM, probably due to the CM's staying deeper and sitting (I use defensive minded players too so that leaves me with a fair number of "defensive" players on the pitch and I tend to play lowish mentalities anyway).

I've been meaning to try this out. Imo it's exactly how Man City how played recently. Touré and Barry sitting deep, Nasri and Silva on the flanks, cutting inside, Agüero looking to get behind the centre-backs and Tévez dropping deep and creating.

What kind of roles do you use in the midfield?

For various reasons it's been a while since I fired up FM but I think the roles were Defensive Midfielder - Def and Deep-lying Playmaker - Def or Support (can't remember but I don't think there's a massive difference anyway).

I think it must be pretty similar, Barry as the defensive rock (although he's a smart player) and Toure as the more expressive of the two. Maybe I should change at half way through the second half to put my Toure-player further forward, I've heard that way wins titles

But yeah, those players are perfect examples of the sort of player I think work well for this type of tactic.

[lam]

Please tell me that you have read through Cleons SI thread?

He works intensely on a 442 in there, initially on a counter attack emphasis. Working from that and evolving it to suit my own team, I acheived this in season 2:

Bulk standard 442.

I ended up throwning away two games near the end of the season to a 0-1 defeat to Liverpool and a 0-2 defeat to Manchester United. And just to emphasize that I do beleive I threw them away.... and to give the reason, I beat Liverpool 1-0 in the FA cap final and Manchester United 2-0 in the Euro cup final.

Have a look at the remainder of the fixtures too........... I know Spurs are a good team, but there are some impressive results in there (at least I think ).

All that said and done............ there is one key thing I have learnt from going through the SI thread and understanding the game far better from it, and that is that a formation is pretty irrelvant. How you play within that formation is key. Understanding the opposition and neutralizing them, where necessary.

Now, don't get me wrong. If you want to win with a 442 just because you want to win with a 442, then go for it as that is exactly the reason I did. But short of downloaded (fit all) tactics, I think any results are possible with almost any formation.

The key changes for me throughout the season was the following:

MC sitting a lot deeper against very strong teams and good teams playing an AMC (or two). I acheived this by setting him to DLP but removing his throughballs. DLP is the deepest MC role you can find.

RFD on/off for my FB's dependant upon the abilities of the oppo wingers. If they were strong, I'd turn it off.

Winger attack vs Midfield Support. Simply a player choice here. If my wingers (Lennon) played, it was a winger attack with a decent target man, if it was Modric/Kranjar, then it was Midfield support using their cut-inside abilities and I generally played with a creative foward and a pacey one.

Strike force was generally either a DLF support/poacher (run onto ball) or a DLF support/Advanced forward/Targetman attack.

As you can see, there are some pretty key changes throughout the season. Thus it is important to understand who/what you are up against.

The key screen for this is the opposition scout screen and their squad screen.

Regards

LAM