crouchaldinho

Show me some 4-4-2 love!

165 posts in this topic

A couple of things regarding those images.

· Nothing wrong with using a 4-4-2 formation and instructions using the tactics creator and shouts. No strange/exploitative use of sliders, positions, or save/reloads required.

· AI flaws responsible for the weak teams opponents selected. Inability to assess the risk my team poses. They played very attacking, whilst my team played counter-attacking. This is the main flaw with the reputation system.

Essentially, when people claim "the AI cheats" against them, they couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, the AI cheats itself! :lol:

We have a lot more control over things than the AI does. We also have the ability not to make as many illogical choices. We always have the upper hand.

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heathxxx I'm impressed. :applause:

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Yeah, but to be fair, that's my only real gripe with FM. How central the reputation system is to everything.

In this case, the following:

· AI managing a high reputation teams picked "weaker" teams because of the huge difference in club reputations, irrespective of it being the QF's and SF's of the FA Cup. Many of their young players were actually no better than my own.

· My players are ideally suited to the positions and roles in which they're deployed. In terms of attributes, they're probably L2 or L1 standard. They have high morale and 100% fluency with my tactics.

· Had the AI managed teams picked their "normal" teams, or stronger teams, they would have thrashed my Altrincham side... absolutely no doubts whatsoever.

· AI went for very attacking approaches, because of the difference in reputation. I instructed my team to sit back and counter, thereby making the most of spaces they left open at the back, because they had a high defensive line & players getting forward.

If I'm going to blow my own trumpet in any way though, it will just be to say that I carefully observe what's happening. I also made sure to apply suitable opposition instructions opposing players. Especially their young/weaker players.

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Oh my goodness! How are you managing it? :eek:

Are you going to win the thing as a Blue Square North club? :D

What the hell is going on?

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AI picking weaker teams is a big help. :thup:

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The important question though is are you guaranteed European football next season?

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Nope. West Brom in the final, who are currently 10th in the Premier League.

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A couple of things regarding those images.

· Nothing wrong with using a 4-4-2 formation and instructions using the tactics creator and shouts. No strange/exploitative use of sliders, positions, or save/reloads required.

· AI flaws responsible for the weak teams opponents selected. Inability to assess the risk my team poses. They played very attacking, whilst my team played counter-attacking. This is the main flaw with the reputation system.

Essentially, when people claim "the AI cheats" against them, they couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, the AI cheats itself! :lol:

We have a lot more control over things than the AI does. We also have the ability not to make as many illogical choices. We always have the upper hand.

We have the upper hand apart from when your goalkeeper fluffs a shot at him and just stands there waiting for the computer to score when he had plenty of time to pick it up. ;)

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We have the upper hand apart from when your goalkeeper fluffs a shot at him and just stands there waiting for the computer to score when he had plenty of time to pick it up. ;)

You mean something like this...

[video=youtube_share;TFUuYXGgKEM]

:D

Thanks to the rather slow reactions to the crossed back-pass, by the Arsenal keeper, my striker said "thanks... I'll have that!"

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Hell or highwater, here's how I roll:

vancouverwhitecapsfctac.png

RCM, RM, LM and SL are all set to team mentality, SR is set to full-attack. LCM, LB and RB are defensive (last notch before "normal", CBs are full defensive. Strikers are set to run from deep and run with the ball often, other 3 rarely. Here's how my starting strikers performed in final season:

izaashistorycareerstats.png

jaguarhistorycareerstat.png

Nothing fancy, but it's been getting the job done since FM08. Classic tactics all the way, baby!!!

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You mean something like this...

[video=youtube_share;TFUuYXGgKEM]

:D

Thanks to the rather slow reactions to the crossed back-pass, by the Arsenal keeper, my striker said "thanks... I'll have that!"

Never ever happens to me.

The bad keeping incident is the first time I've ever come across it. Still, it's annoying and a shame it's in the game.

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I decided to make a new, well 2, 'experiment' saves.

Ever since I made my 4231/4213 and my 433, I've basically gone back and forth between them. I don't think I've used a 442 in 2+ years tbh.

I decided to remake my 442 using everything that I've learned in the last few years. When I was younger, I made a successfully 442 (my first successful tactic actually) that was very counterattacking and very direct; I don't do things like that anymore.

Anyways I started one with Man united and one with real madrid. I wanted to see it would work if I had 2 strikers who both have the 'come deep for ball' PPM (berbatov and rooney) vs having just one (Raul).

In the real save, I've only played one league match. Things went well as I won 3-0 over bilbao. My main concern has been getting the wide players closer to the box without restricting my side's width. Ronaldo didn't do much cutting inside or getting into the box during preseason, but he really wanted to score in this match :D

As far as the United save is concerned, the 442 has gone really really well. Rooney and Berbatov have combined really well. They drop deep and leaves space in behind for the wide players (Valencia, Nani, Park, Sanchez who I signed, Giggs). Barring Nani, they have all scored. In fact Park is currently the top scorer (he's got one more than Rooney currently).

All in all, I've had a lot of fun because its something familiar yet completely different. Things are looking really good so I'm thinking that I'm gonna being using this tactic in my main save come next season :thup:

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Trying a 'classic' 4-4-2 at the moment. The two central pairs in midfield and up front have the 'staggered' set-up (one ball-winner and one central mid with more freedom, one deeper striker providing a link to the midfield and one advanced striker), while the wide players are just pure wingers set to attack. Full-backs are just set to automatic, and I use the "look for overlap" shout if I'm getting joy down the wings.

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Trying a 'classic' 4-4-2 at the moment. The two central pairs in midfield and up front have the 'staggered' set-up (one ball-winner and one central mid with more freedom, one deeper striker providing a link to the midfield and one advanced striker), while the wide players are just pure wingers set to attack. Full-backs are just set to automatic, and I use the "look for overlap" shout if I'm getting joy down the wings.
keep in mind that ball winner is a very attacking role due to the closing down, so playing an attacking playmaker with lots of freedome next to him might be the best of ideas and it will leave your defense very exposed

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I actually play a central midfielder on automatic next to him. The ball-winner has a defensive mentality, so he is aggressive when closing down but doesn't venture too far forward.

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I am currently playing as England, to perfect a 4-4-2 formation ready for fm 13 as got bored of my game.

I am playing with a advanced and deep lying playmaker in center midfield, and then a deep lying foward and a poacher in attack, it's going well so far so I am looking forward to fm 13.

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Here is some 4-4-2 love for you all:

Roy Crouchson - Taking England to Poland & Ukraine 2012

:cool:

I created a little career save. I started out a novice manager who, somehow, managed to get the england job. Took them to the world cup and eventually in the semi final to eventual winners Serbia. Serbia beat me, england, brazil and argentina so I guess they deserve it.

Currently played 2 euro qualifiers and we have started flying. I'm even being linked with a couple jobs now.

All in all things are going great so far :thup:

Kinda glad I've gone back to my 442 :D

Edit:

Its a great feeling when you make a gamble and it pays off. Bayern tied me 1-1 at home in our first group stage meeting. I just went into their place in the return meeting and beat them 5-0 :cool:

This being in the madrid save.

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Are we able to give any tactical spoilers in this thread?

Have refined my 4-4-2 and it's one of the most potent tactics I've used, to the point where it has just yielded my first ever 50-goal season from a striker.

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Shameless plug Crouchy. :p

The most shameless plug of all time.

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i like 4-3-3 ,and i made my team (china country team) qualify for world cup...it's amazing

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from experience, playing a 4-4-2 in FM makes you very vulnerable to through balls as the defenders dont know to defend against them. thus when i decide on playing 4-4-2, I always play one of the central midfielders in the DM position. has anyone tried playing with two DMs and LM/RM?

i have devised a 442 that has won it all whether i'm in LLM with a poor club or a big club. The AI is easy to beat, and there is a really easy tweak i set up in my 442 that defends well against through balls. I don't think i have seen a league season where my defence has not been in the top 2 for least conceded. Anyway you only know your 442 is solid when you play against other humans and their tactics and win, in an online environment, I personally think the FM12 AI is poor. In-fact the AI is so easy to dominate imo i don't have a single player game anymore and i only play online games against tougher opposition.

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I like the formation, but finding natural ML/MR players is so much harder than finding natural AML/AMR players. That alone is the reason I stick with a 4-5-1, especially when I'm scrambling to sign any talented player willing to play for my up and coming teams.

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i have devised a 442 that has won it all whether i'm in LLM with a poor club or a big club. The AI is easy to beat, and there is a really easy tweak i set up in my 442 that defends well against through balls. I don't think i have seen a league season where my defence has not been in the top 2 for least conceded. Anyway you only know your 442 is solid when you play against other humans and their tactics and win, in an online environment, I personally think the FM12 AI is poor. In-fact the AI is so easy to dominate imo i don't have a single player game anymore and i only play online games against tougher opposition.

Yes it is strange, really. When I encounter the good AI teams, currently Manchester United, Fiorentina, Juventus, Paris S-G, Barcelona and Real+Athletico Madrid, these teams have at least three or more world-class players (some of which are up there with my best player) and then the rest are solid players but not as good as the rest of mine. So yes as a team we are stronger, but it shouldn't be by that much. Should be like today's Barca vs Manchester City. Yet, I beat them by at least three goals and dominate completely, without the use of obvious ME cheats like corners to an unmarked man at the first post and a singular goal-scoring strategy like direct, narrow through-balls. The most trouble I have are when good teams decide to go on the counter-attack and defend deep, but once I score the first goal they abandon that successful strategy and go on the attack and from that point on they are completely chanceless (literally).

The AI MUST manage to analyze that if they send their full backs forward, their midfielders forward and employ an attacking mentality throughout, their attacking play becomes -worse-! Sending lots of men forward does not generate more chances! Chance creation is all about defensive control, and goal-scoring is all about waiting for the right moment for that through-ball or shot. This renders the standard setting of the Attacking and Overload strategies completely useless unless they keep a formation with 8-9 men behind the ball, like 4-1-4-1.

They must also be able to analyze where and how defensive weaknesses exist on both sides of the pitch, and then be able to do something about it. In short, the good AI managers must become much much better! Ideally, they should go about to make an AI that is 100% flawless and completely unbeatable for the testing team. Then they should use that as a template and tone down the PAI (perfect artificial intelligence - by the limitations of the game) in to the different CA and attribute levels for the AI managers. So Mourinho, Ferguson and those guys should be really hard to beat... almost all down to luck and player quality, really (within the boundaries of realism of course - they shouldn't be able to change tactics completely within a match). While in the lower leagues mistakes should be common and a good FM-player should be able to outsmart them using relatively simple means.

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I'm still playing on FM11, but after a fairly low scoring season last season and signing a second world class striker for my Forest team we've swapped to a fluid 4-4-2, now the team is scoring for fun!

We're Unbeaten in 30 league games, our poacher has just scored his 60th goal of the season, the DLF has 23, 14 points clear with 5 wins to go and conceded just 22.

Gotta say I'm loving it atm ;) 4-4-2 dead? Nah...

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Yes it is strange, really. When I encounter the good AI teams, currently Manchester United, Fiorentina, Juventus, Paris S-G, Barcelona and Real+Athletico Madrid, these teams have at least three or more world-class players (some of which are up there with my best player) and then the rest are solid players but not as good as the rest of mine. So yes as a team we are stronger, but it shouldn't be by that much. Should be like today's Barca vs Manchester City. Yet, I beat them by at least three goals and dominate completely, without the use of obvious ME cheats like corners to an unmarked man at the first post and a singular goal-scoring strategy like direct, narrow through-balls. The most trouble I have are when good teams decide to go on the counter-attack and defend deep, but once I score the first goal they abandon that successful strategy and go on the attack and from that point on they are completely chanceless (literally).

The AI MUST manage to analyze that if they send their full backs forward, their midfielders forward and employ an attacking mentality throughout, their attacking play becomes -worse-! Sending lots of men forward does not generate more chances! Chance creation is all about defensive control, and goal-scoring is all about waiting for the right moment for that through-ball or shot. This renders the standard setting of the Attacking and Overload strategies completely useless unless they keep a formation with 8-9 men behind the ball, like 4-1-4-1.

They must also be able to analyze where and how defensive weaknesses exist on both sides of the pitch, and then be able to do something about it. In short, the good AI managers must become much much better! Ideally, they should go about to make an AI that is 100% flawless and completely unbeatable for the testing team. Then they should use that as a template and tone down the PAI (perfect artificial intelligence - by the limitations of the game) in to the different CA and attribute levels for the AI managers. So Mourinho, Ferguson and those guys should be really hard to beat... almost all down to luck and player quality, really (within the boundaries of realism of course - they shouldn't be able to change tactics completely within a match). While in the lower leagues mistakes should be common and a good FM-player should be able to outsmart them using relatively simple means.

:applause:

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We're Unbeaten in 30 league games, our poacher has just scored his 60th goal of the season, the DLF has 23, 14 points clear with 5 wins to go and conceded just 22.

When I do use the 4-4-2, I find the most success with that Poacher/Deep-Lying Forward combination. It works especially well when the DLF is a playmaker type. He ends up becoming an assist beast, much to the poacher's delight.

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Here is the tactic i've been using at West Ham, not quite a conventional 442 but near enough.

And some results (from previous season as currently in Aug 2017)

This guy has helped : )

could you please upload a screenshot of Raheem Sterling atts, I've never got far enough in the game to see how he develops :)

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When I do use the 4-4-2, I find the most success with that Poacher/Deep-Lying Forward combination. It works especially well when the DLF is a playmaker type. He ends up becoming an assist beast, much to the poacher's delight.

Very much so, to go with those 23 goals he has 15 assists :)

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When I do use the 4-4-2, I find the most success with that Poacher/Deep-Lying Forward combination. It works especially well when the DLF is a playmaker type. He ends up becoming an assist beast, much to the poacher's delight.

That is historically the advantage of the 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 as it allows those partnerships to prosper. Loving a Targetman (att) and Poacher (att) combination at the moment which has been thrown together because of injuries.

How do you set your central midfield pair up and do you set up their roles in relation to the front pair? I.e. if the SC(l) is the DLF do you change your CM(l) role to compliment?

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I have a lot of success with a deep-lying forward (support) and an advanced forward (attack). Both get their share of goals, and I play a quick player at the AF spot and find he often gets the ball a little bit deeper and runs at defenses when we play through the middle, as well as being a poacher when the ball is played out wide and crossed.

If the DLF is good in the air, I'll often set him to be a target man in the team instructions and he'll come deeper and provide knock-ons too.

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This thread inspired me to try and develop a successful 4-4-2 for the first time since FM2006, and what better starting squad to do it with than Spurs? The results? Complete failure. Shambolic defensively and outnumbered in attack. I just can't get my midfield to do anything than form a line across midfield, they don't join the attack enough and rarely check back to help defend. Various tweaks later and I give up. 4-4-2 remains on the scrapheap for me, it's back to my trusty 4-2-3-1 options that have treated me so well on this version.

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I’m loving my 4-4-2 at the moment, killing it in my second season in the Bundesliga with Fortuna Dusseldorf. Current purple patch is mostly down to high morale and some players hitting some great form but I’m playing with the following setup which is also helping:

Standard (to begin)

Fluid

Manually slowed the tempo to a notch or two above ‘slow’ with the time wasting at home matching that, away from home it’s higher and usually matches my DLine.

SwKp (support)

FBs Support (RB on Defend away)

CDs Defend

Wide Mids (Attack)…using wide mids because the guys I’m playing there don’t have the legs or ability to be wingers

CM(D)

CM(S)

AdvFwd

Treq (with Closing Down set to mid point)

That’s it – nice and simple, kept the same team for most games this season and now we’re 11 games unbeaten and going well – just spanked Hertha 4-0 away and then smashed Werder Bremen 6-1.

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I always use a 442 with great effect. As with the West Ham side above its with wingers rather than wide midfielders. The AI calls it a 424 for some reason.

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I use 4-4-2 95% of the time, since they added match prep (which I feel restricted tactical flexibility a lot). I just play it direct, with a lot of pressing and harsh tackling. Tend to have normal attacking wingers, a ball winning midfielder, and an advanced playmaker in the middle. Then it's advanced forward and poacher upfront. It's simple, it works. I do find some tactics require a bit of a tweak, like some narrow formations I might have to change a striker off for a defensive midfielder so not to get overwhelmed in the middle.

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I use 4-4-2 and i close down the side midfield, i haven't built a super tactic but it is working

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I use a very fluid 4-4-2. It is important for people to realize that this formation is not necessarily going to be a goal-scoring formation, and it isn't a formation that is going to win you 100% of your matches. But what it does (depending on how it has been tweaked) is put the emphasis on good performances on the team, rather than on a few good players. It's a good formation for those who don't want the wins to depend on how that one certain star player is playing on the day.

A common gripe is that this formation cannot defend against AMCs. This may be somewhat true, but there are options to deal with this. In addition, if the opposing team has an AMC, then they are lacking a player in some other part of the field. It's up to a manager to exploit those spaces, so that the issue becomes, "Who will score more goals?" rather than "How can I deal with this AMC?"

A 4-4-2 is not the only formation I use, but I definitely like it. It is up to managers to realize the appropriate situations to use the appropriate formations, but the 4-4-2 is definitely not dead, given the right situation and the right players. If I had to use one formation for the rest of my FM-playing days, it would be the 4-4-2.

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Tbf, I'm only saying that because I tried to set up a Counter-attacking 4-4-2 in a league that also mainly uses the 4-4-2 and failed badly! I had a relegation favourite at the time and it worked so well in my head to use my wingers (as they are much better than the MCs) to hit the other team on the counter and cross early to my pacey strikers.

That's how I saw the attacking part. The problem is, I didn't think about the defending enough. My more defensive midfield tends to dive into tackles and get himself booked, so he regularly had to be subbed off early. The sub I had wasn't up to scratch. The other teams tore me apart by exploiting the weaknesses in my MCs. After a few games, I had to ditch the 4-4-2 to have more numbers in midfield.

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Nice to see a 442 thread up at last!!

I am a traditionalist (or an old fart!!!) :D

Much prefer playing with 2 strikers

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I play a 442 with my Ebbsfleet team. we just finished the season in 2027...and did a quadruple. My team is great but there are better teams. a 442 with a deeplying forward on support and and advance forward mean its like a 451. most team couldnt coupe with me especially teams playing the 433. Love 442.

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I play a 442 with my Ebbsfleet team. we just finished the season in 2027...and did a quadruple. My team is great but there are better teams. a 442 with a deeplying forward on support and and advance forward mean its like a 451. most team couldnt coupe with me especially teams playing the 433. Love 442.

Yes that's how I play up front with Leeds.

With a BWM (s) & an AP (s) in midfield, FB on Auto W on attack & CD on defend.

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Yes that's how I play up front with Leeds.

With a BWM (s) & an AP (s) in midfield, FB on Auto W on attack & CD on defend.

I tried a BWM(S) and AP(s) didnt go as well as i wanted. my perfect set up is

GK

WB(s) CB(d) CB(d) WB(s)

W(A) DLP(d) AP(a) W(a)

DLF(s) AF(a)

it sound very attacking but its the best counter attacking formation i ever experienced. Most team never see what hit them.

and surprisingly my team has the best tackle and pass completion rate in the league.

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I tried a BWM(S) and AP(s) didnt go as well as i wanted. my perfect set up is

GK

WB(s) CB(d) CB(d) WB(s)

W(A) DLP(d) AP(a) W(a)

DLF(s) AF(a)

it sound very attacking but its the best counter attacking formation i ever experienced. Most team never see what hit them.

and surprisingly my team has the best tackle and pass completion rate in the league.

Do you play counter-attacking all the time with what sort of mentality?

How are your Team Instructions set?

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