The Full 90 Minutes - What I Do

[shirajzl]

One of the things I find most interesting now, which kind of ties into one of my other recent posts, is the ability to still get a result from your so-called 'second team'.

My biggest problem is still dealing with the throughballs. Man United are the king of these in my view and I hate it when Rooney and Berbatov are playing.... which leads me to another interesting story (at least from my view ).

I managed to beat Man United 2-0 in the Champions Cup final, though the last goal came very late, so in reality I was happy with a 1-0 win. despite dominating play, I found it very hard to break them down enough to score decent goals.

Both teams had their 'defence breaking' players out of the game. I was Bale and Willians (my outstanding AML/R turned Poacher) down and .... drum roll.... Man U were down Rooney......

Neither team did well at breaking the defences down. Dzeko was struggling upfront and I could tell that I was missing some pace, even though Cavani is blessed with some. In the end I brought Dos Santos on and he scored about 5 minutes later............

I love being able to read the game better now, but nothing is more rewarding when you make a substitute and he goes and scores the exact way you thought he would

Reminds me of my CL final against United. Although it's 2023 and original players are gone, Man Utd have an excellent team, with a South African up front who has been scoring about goal per game for 6 seasons now. Anyway, they are very dangerous with the ball, even if you defend well. As a result, I decided to take possession and keep it by all means necessary. It meant a boring game because I couldn't be offensively potent if I were to "hide" the ball from them effectively. I created 3 decent chances and scored one, while I completely controlled the game defensively. They went without a single chance all match, despite changing tactics and such a few times.

That feeling when you tactically outsmart the opponent (without trying to exploit the ME) and win an important match is outstanding.

[Jack Taylor]

@Cleon

How do you know when to change the width?

[Cleon]

@Cleon

How do you know when to change the width?

If the middle is too congested and I think I could hurt them better by been wide. Or the reverse of that when I think I'm not getting anything been out wide and would be much better off playing narrow and hurting them from more central positions.

[lam]

If the middle is too congested and I think I could hurt them better by been wide. Or the reverse of that when I think I'm not getting anything been out wide and would be much better off playing narrow and hurting them from more central positions.

When you consider this do you use a shout, thus also focusing passing or do you simple adjust width, thus maintain a mixed passing focus?

Regards

[Cleon]

When you consider this do you use a shout, thus also focusing passing or do you simple adjust width, thus maintain a mixed passing focus?

Regards

Just shouts mate

[Jack Taylor]

If the middle is too congested and I think I could hurt them better by been wide. Or the reverse of that when I think I'm not getting anything been out wide and would be much better off playing narrow and hurting them from more central positions.

Thanks. Rival realized that my team plays poorly against the scheme

_____FW-FW

AML_________AMR

____DCM____DCM

LB____DC_DC______RB

The team plays against them is very bad. What will advise? I usually play a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 scheme

[achilles-the-victorious]

In general, if I am up against a shape I am not familiar with, or comfortable countering, then I will line up with that shape as well. I will see how it goes, and consider tweaking it for future use.

Thanks. Rival realized that my team plays poorly against the scheme

_____FW-FW

AML_________AMR

____DCM____DCM

LB____DC_DC______RB

The team plays against them is very bad. What will advise? I usually play a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 scheme

[lfc7]

For the first 15 minutes do you watch the game in full match mode ?

[achilles-the-victorious]

Can do. I will watch the first 30 minutes in Extended mode if I am worried about how the game will go (if I don't think my players are that motivated, or have concerns about the opposition's formation). A lot of times I just want to know what I need to do differently for the 2nd half, in terms of what players I need to speak with (if I am disappointed, if they are nervous, playing a sub-6.0, etc) or what subs I will need to make.

If the match is decided with 30 minutes or thereabouts to go then I don't do tactical substitutions, I make substitutions based on morale and player development.

For the first 15 minutes do you watch the game in full match mode ?

[jim morrow]

Just a few comments :

1) I think Assistant advice is updating "live" now and not each 15 minutes.

2) Reading and understanding Zonal Action is also a key to correct instructions and win the match.

3) Using analysis menu to find easily passing % and try to correct individual instructions to obtain the higher passing ratio possible.

[lfc7]

Can do. I will watch the first 30 minutes in Extended mode if I am worried about how the game will go (if I don't think my players are that motivated, or have concerns about the opposition's formation). A lot of times I just want to know what I need to do differently for the 2nd half, in terms of what players I need to speak with (if I am disappointed, if they are nervous, playing a sub-6.0, etc) or what subs I will need to make.

If the match is decided with 30 minutes or thereabouts to go then I don't do tactical substitutions, I make substitutions based on morale and player development.

Thanks

[achilles-the-victorious]

This is something I tend to do between games, analyze my teams performance, and see if adjustments need to be made. If a player isn't completing a lot of passes or even attempting a lot of passes (seems to happen on my team's right flank) then I see if I need to make an adjustment to the tactics in general, or only adjust when that player in particular is playing (i.e. if it is a youngster/squad player not playing the tactic as well as the starter).

Lately I have had great joy adjusting very little other than tempo and time-wasting. Its amazing how much effect you can have over your teams speed of play between those sliders. If I feel my team is rushing their passes slightly I will tell them to play "less urgently", or in slider talk, slightly more timewasting. If the other team is closing down quickly I will tell my players to play more urgently, and up the tempo as well. It leaves defenders over-committed, and my players use their technical ability to either get rid of the ball quickly, or move the ball backwards, to a fullback or CB, who then moves it forward (with an accurate medium-to-long range pass).

Never bothered adjusting time-wasting before this season, but have definitely found it to have an impact on the team's build-up play.

Just a few comments :

1) I think Assistant advice is updating "live" now and not each 15 minutes.

2) Reading and understanding Zonal Action is also a key to correct instructions and win the match.

3) Using analysis menu to find easily passing % and try to correct individual instructions to obtain the higher passing ratio possible.

[patrikholm]

Well. I've always been struggling with my local team Västerås SK in the swedish third tier. They have the best squad in their league but somehow I always manage to end up in seventh place (or something like that). I didn't liked it so I decided to figure out what I was doing wrong. What solved the puzzle was:

1) Reading some of your thoughts in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-All-You-Need-To-Know-About-FM

2) Took your tactic from that thread as base for my own tactic.

3) Read through this thread.

And now I often start with your 4-4-2 tactic but as any that have read this thread I tweak the positions/mentalities/roles a bit almost every game and are using some shouts, and the result...

http://bildr.no/view/1177311

Conceded 2 ****ing goals...The two draws was when my best striker and best winger was injured and one of them against Sandvikens IF so I guess I will NEVER ever again just play through the game as fast as I can before looking some parts of the game in full.

Since most of the teams in Sweden (including me) are playing a 4-4-2 formation my favourite shouts are: "Retain Posession", "Pass Into Space", "Work Ball Into Box ", "Exploit The Middle" and "Play Wider". By using this shout against other 4-4-2 teams i tend to play a little bit like Barcelona/Arsenal I'm dragging out the opponents to the flanks and then playing the ball quick in the middle and a through ball to the attacker

Some games my players almost forgets to put the ball in the net instead of passing between themselves:

:D

Sorry for bad english...

[Cleon]

Well. I've always been struggling with my local team Västerås SK in the swedish third tier. They have the best squad in their league but somehow I always manage to end up in seventh place (or something like that). I didn't liked it so I decided to figure out what I was doing wrong. What solved the puzzle was:

1) Reading some of your thoughts in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-All-You-Need-To-Know-About-FM

2) Took your tactic from that thread as base for my own tactic.

3) Read through this thread.

And now I often start with your 4-4-2 tactic but as any that have read this thread I tweak the positions/mentalities/roles a bit almost every game and are using some shouts, and the result...

http://bildr.no/view/1177311

Conceded 2 ****ing goals...The two draws was when my best striker and best winger was injured and one of them against Sandvikens IF so I guess I will NEVER ever again just play through the game as fast as I can before looking some parts of the game in full.

Since most of the teams in Sweden (including me) are playing a 4-4-2 formation my favourite shouts are: "Retain Posession", "Pass Into Space", "Work Ball Into Box ", "Exploit The Middle" and "Play Wider". By using this shout against other 4-4-2 teams i tend to play a little bit like Barcelona/Arsenal I'm dragging out the opponents to the flanks and then playing the ball quick in the middle and a through ball to the attacker

Some games my players almost forgets to put the ball in the net instead of passing between themselves:

:D

Sorry for bad english...

Sorry been away for a while and only just seen this. Your English is fine

That's pretty impressive. What do you do if you go a goal behind?

[TeeWee]

This happened to me last nigth to illustrate this approach a bit:

To start with, I have three different setups: a 4411 when I'm underdogs / happy to get away a point (away vs Top 2 in league, European competitions), 442-wide diamond for whenever I'm huge favourites, and 433-flat version for everything in between.

Last night, I had an away vs a very mediocre team, bottom half of the table. Pregame odds were good, so I chose the wide diamond. Opposition was also lined up in a wide diamond, so I was happy; as long as I maintain control over the pitch, them having three outright attacking players, two wide men and no men in the middle of the park is good news for my wide diamond.

But somehow, in the first five minutes, play felt wrong. Their DMC seemed to be winning all balls and their AMC seemed to be winning tackles too. Even after I managed an early goal (AMC laid off to onrushing left midfielder, shot and goal), midfield seemed a lost battle. My DMC wasn't able to handle the pressure by himself and desperately needed help.

So I decided to take a drastic measure and called for the 433 to be played. A bit difficult, since I kind of need very different players (in particular, my wingers need to be replaced by central midfielders or strikers), but with only 1 player severely out of position, it was ok.

After that, midfield became a stable contest, but they no longer were able to reach their strikers. On the their end of the pitch though, individual quality and the overload of attackers (three strikers, plus one central midfielder on attack duty) made the difference: 0-6 at full time. The game never seemed in doubt once my players settled into the 433-plan, and at half time I made a sub to better fit into that formation and game over for the opposition.

I would not have been able to spot the problem and think of a good response without watching the match. Statistics can be used to back up my gut feeling, but watching the full match for a few minutes can usually give you a good impression on how well the teams are playing and which areas are in need of some attention.

[Sammie B]

Tried the swansea tactic with Dundee utd and couldnt get it to work really, even using the shouts. The defense was shaky and the attack was ineffective, it was all possession and no chances being made. So i changed to your newcastle version tactic and overseen 2 wins since albeit with less possession. What sort of shouts would you use against bigger teams when you know you will be dominated?

[Cleon]

Define dominated? What do you base been dominated on possession, shots? Possession I'm happy to let the opposition have as long as I create good chances. It doesn't have to be many either, just quality over quantity.

The shouts I use are all in the SI Sports Centre thread stickied at the top of the forum, they are the only shouts I use

[Sammie B]

Well with the first tactic it was both! Couldn't create a chance for toffee. Agreed no point having possession if not going to do anything with it. Yes ive read through them but still getting used to them. What types of shouts did you use against the bigger teams. e.g. when you was swansea away to man city?

[achilles-the-victorious]

When I am playing the counter I like to 'get the ball forward' to increase the directness of the teams passing. If I am a little worried about pace in the opposition front line I will drop deeper, but if I feel they are going to pass it around outside my box then I will try the opposite, and try to push up a bit.

[ShirazS]

My first match using some of what you mentioned above Cleon:

Although I watched the entire match on full since it was my first competitive match of the season so wanted to see how my new tactic does against a decent team. I was 3-0 up at half time without making any changes, we both played 4-2-3-1 Wide. After the break, they changed to a 4-4-2 narrow diamond and started to flood the center of the park so I shouted "Play Narrower" to still be compact but also "Exploit the Flanks". I got another goal.

They then created their only CCC when my BWM closed down their DM who passed to their MC, he was then closed down by my LB and it left a gaping hole for their right back to burst into and shoot from an angle, narrowly missing. I set my AMC to specifically man mark their DM and we scored 2 more from countering down the flanks as their full-backs were getting way too advanced.

Anyway, I have one question though, they had a lot of dangerous crosses made, most of them were intercepted but one or two almost ended up being a chance for them. What can I do to stop the supply? Most of the crosses came from their full-backs and a couple from the wingers. I was thinking of changing my full-backs to Defend to play deeper and be in better positions to intercept the crosses but thought that it might just give them more space to pick their target better. Would specific man-marking have helped maybe?

Regards

Shiraz

Wonderful stuff

[Sammie B]

Cant beat celtic at home at all. Tried at least 6 times to try get used to the shouts and yet to score and conceeded loads. Keep conceeding from corners and just seem terrible from corners full stop. Tried drop deeper and making full backs to defend, passing to feet to keep the ball but it isnt working

[JackDavies]

I've started using the 15mins full, 75 mins extended concept. Got to say I'm seeing and subsequently learning a lot more. Ive made a few changes that have had positive impacts on the game which I'm chuffed about. A tad too tired to write them now, but Ill write a fuller report in due course

Cheers Cleon as always, been reading your threads for about 5 years now

Update

I am playing your half way Swansea game. This way i can be comfortable in the knowledge the basic tactic is good, and as long as my reactionary inputs are appropriate I can find success. Anyhow my plan is to record my thoughts for prosperity. P.S had a little chuckle at the gender of your profile

Beat Villa 2-0 AWAY - At HT we were dominating possession yet creating litte of note. I used the shouts pass into space & work ball in box. Scott sinclair subsequently scored twice in the second half from Dyer crosses. Additional thoughts, Graham seems to have exceptional movement as a lone striker. Perhaps this is down to his workrate, teamwork, stamina, and off the ball and PPM gets into opposition box. I imagine him to literally be running his arse intelligently into space all the time.

Beat Man U 2-1 HOME : Pre game I made 3 changes. I changed passing to through the centre, as they were playing a 442. I thought this may limit their potent winger threat of valencia and young. I also issued the shout of stay on feet, to avoid my players being constantly skinned by UTD's talented team. I also asked Dyer and Sinclair to man mark there FB's as expected being Rafael and Fabio that they would be attacking.

I did consider dropping deep with both Welbeck and Hernandez being pace merchants, but i decided not too as expected UTD to try and build up play, rather then knocking balls over the top. Althouugh I was worried about their pace, i didnt expect their system to utilise it.

The 1st half performance was great, and a got immense joy watching the first 15 mins in full to see both sinclair and dyer dutifully tracking back. When ever young and valencia bombed down the wings, fabio and rafael would join them however were pretty much nullified as an passing choice through being marked.

Graham scored 2 goals in the 30min, to recieve the commentary "UTDS game plan is being undone" yehaaa

In the 46th min Williams gave a pen away (drat awful timing just before HT). I was not overly concenred tactically however, as i felt we were dominating, and this was a just a chance mistake. As such a chose not to issue any changes, and UTD missed the pen.

In the 2nd half UTD came out reved up and stated to get back into the game more. I considered changes but thought perhaps this was just a motivational boost. Danny welbeck scored on the 60th min, and by pausing the game over the 2nd half, I felt UTD were pushing up more. As such I dropped deeper, narrower, and chose to hit early cross's.

We held on to knock UTD out

Drew Everton 0-0 AWAY Everton lined up with a 4-4-1-1 . TBH I didnt really know what to expect or to do (so i did nothing). In the first 15 mins nothing really happened, other than they had more possession. I gave the shout to retain possession. At half time i also knocked up time wasting to try attempt getting more possession. On analaysis of the stats however, we were passing well, I think it was just they were sat back knocking it round. I considering pressing more but thought being away it was too risky. In the 60th min, i chose play narrower and exploit flanks, in an attempt to bring Sinclair and Dyer into the game (and because there formation was fairly central) . In the 80th min I shouted hassle oppenents , and finally carved out a few chances.

On reflection we were favs for the game, and i think everton just sat back. My issues with possession, were not with me retaining the ball, it was with me not getting stuck in. In hingsight i think i would have pushed higher up and hassled opponents.

beat Sunderland 1-0 HOME : Had no thoughts pre game so went in with no changes. First half I was 70:30 possession , so 2nd half i played pass into space and work ball into box. Didnt seem to change to much. In the 75th min they went from 442 to a flat 451. As such i pushed the DLP up to APM, and pushed the DM to CM. I also shouted hassle opponents, push higher up, and play wider. My thoughts being i should try and stretch the packed midfield, and that my DM position was useless whilst they were content for the draw. I also changed the FB's to attack. The changes heralded a instant response, as Scott Sinclair scored in the 80th min

Beat Wigan FA CUP 2-1 Home I changed my starting 11 pretty much as I had Spurs 3 days after in the league. I felt we could porbably beat Wigan at home with a 2nd string. Pre kick off i shouted play narrower just with the thought they wouldnt have played in a while so keeping shape was important. After the 1st 15 mins, I felt Wigan were seeing to much of the ball. I guessed this was because as a good passing team, they were matching me technically. As such i pushed higher up and hassled opponents, to make sure I wasnt given the to much time on the ball . In the 47th min Sinclair (my only normal starting player) scored a wonder goal. 60th min James mcarthy bangs one in from a throwing scramble. Still not winning the midfield possession battle i tell my lads to get stuck in. Immediately after Routledge scores a tap in from a Sinclair . Saw out the game wwith, drop deeper, narrower, retain possession

[JackDavies]

Lost Spurs 2-0 Away They lined up in a 4411. Tbh i played this game late, so Im strugling to remember my changes. However i tried a number of things, as i got completely battered. I tried sitting back , playing narrower & retaining possesion. Sinclair and Dyer were just passengers in the game, so tried setting them to support. Didnt work, so then I tried pushing out to give VdV less space in AM role, by pushing up and hassling oppoenents. Honestly i was completely thrashed in this game, and it was only 2 nil thanks to a top performance from Vorm.

Although I was tired, and feel this is the first game were Ive had a real problem reacting to the opposition. I was at a loss. I see you beat Spur 2-1 Cleon, can you remember any thoughts you had from the game? or if not the spurs set up in general

[Cleon]

I've been away, I will get around to answering these questions in the next day or so

[JackDavies]

Excellent, Just to reiterate, I've been reading your threads for about 5 years now and as always this one is excellent. Thoroughly enjoying completing your Swansea save. After I've finished im really tempted to try and set up a Sam Allardyce Boltonesque "anti football' team in the 4-1-2-2-1 shape (a la the Jay Jay Okocha/Ivan Campo etc years). Simply as it would be interesting to play the complete opposite way to Swansea.

Thanks again C

[James9]

I decide to pause the game yet again and just watch back a few more incidents from what’s happened so far. There’s no real reason for doing this other than just to check I’ve not missed anything.

Set pieces are vital especially attacking corners. It’s always a good idea to stop the game and have a look around at your players positioned who have stayed back. You need to make sure you have numbers back and that the opposition don’t outnumber you. I noticed in the above screenshot that I only have 2 players back. While this is enough to mark the lone striker of Aston Villa, it’s not really suitable for quick counter attacks. The two players back are my fullback’s so I decide to ask my defensive midfielder to stay back at all times as well. Just so I can be prepared for quick counter attacks. Some might deem this to be cautious but it happens often. If you don’t have numbers back it’s not unusual for the opposition to break from a corner you had and score.

Basically this is all I do during the first 15 minutes. I know it’s probably a letdown for some of you as you were expecting something a little more. But I honestly don’t do any more than this. Sure I might have different issues from time to time but all the basics of what I look out for are all highlighted in the above posts. Game to game I just rinse and repeat.

I managed to win this game as you are aware

The approach I use is quite simplistic really when you think about it. It’s just common sense and not as much messing around or as complicated as people first assume when you mention you watch the opening 15 minutes. People think ‘whoa that must take a lot of time’, but in all honesty it takes a few minutes more maximum.

Just keep an eye out for anything that you consider to be a fault. Keep an eye of the players passing, if someone is missing a lot of passes just look at why it’s happening and see what you can do to fix it.

I don’t know what else to put in all honesty or expand on as I don’t do anything different than I’ve already highlighted

Cleon great thread. I just got around to reading it after giving up on the game last week. Could I ask how you go those screens that shows how the team is playing. It would be great to view these screens while watching the match

[Cleon]

What screens do you mean? The ones that show the match stats etc?

[Romanista1994]

What screens do you mean? The ones that show the match stats etc?

I think he means the widgets.

[James9]

What screens do you mean? The ones that show the match stats etc?

I mean the widgets

[Cleon]

I mean the widgets

TV view, Match day info then select what you wanna see

[lam]

I have a fairly large screen (not sure if its relevant) but I play with lots of widgets.

I have the following open all the time surrounding the pitch:

My team morale

Both team performance

Both team formations (not sure if this is a cheat or not but you will see the opposition change formation here before you see it in the commentary)

Basic stats

Radar

The following are minimised above the pitch

Assistant overview

Full stats

Oppo morale.

Regards

[Cleon]

I have a fairly large screen (not sure if its relevant) but I play with lots of widgets.

I have the following open all the time surrounding the pitch:

My team morale

Both team performance

Both team formations (not sure if this is a cheat or not but you will see the opposition change formation here before you see it in the commentary)

Basic stats

Radar

The following are minimised above the pitch

Assistant overview

Full stats

Oppo morale.

Regards

Pretty much same as me

[Cleon]

Lost Spurs 2-0 Away They lined up in a 4411. Tbh i played this game late, so Im strugling to remember my changes. However i tried a number of things, as i got completely battered. I tried sitting back , playing narrower & retaining possesion. Sinclair and Dyer were just passengers in the game, so tried setting them to support. Didnt work, so then I tried pushing out to give VdV less space in AM role, by pushing up and hassling oppoenents. Honestly i was completely thrashed in this game, and it was only 2 nil thanks to a top performance from Vorm.

Although I was tired, and feel this is the first game were Ive had a real problem reacting to the opposition. I was at a loss. I see you beat Spur 2-1 Cleon, can you remember any thoughts you had from the game? or if not the spurs set up in general

Did you try and cut the supply off from the wingers and the AMC? I think I had my DMC man mark the AMC meaning I had 2 central defenders who could just mop up any mistakes or knockdown that the lone striker might have done.

Spurs normally change to 2 strikers early on though from all the times I've played them. Did this happen in your game?

[Cleon]

Think I'll give this a bump seeing as it was half way down page 2

[jimbobBRFC]

Think I'll give this a bump seeing as it was half way down page 2

you, my friend, have no shame

[Cleon]

you, my friend, have no shame

Was more a case of people asking questions along the lines of what this thread covers;)

[Cleon]

Anyone else got any stories of how they turn a game around?

[mrdorf]

Sometimes all you need is the 'Hairdryer' treatment.

[Cleon]

Thought I'd bump this

[FC Barnet]

Great thread. Just started the game with a very poor Div 2 side to try to put this into action. Now I realise just how limited some of the poorer players in my squad are. 2 mistakes and i'm 2-0 down and it's difficult to recover. WTB "Don't be such muppets" shout.

[Cleon]

Great thread. Just started the game with a very poor Div 2 side to try to put this into action. Now I realise just how limited some of the poorer players in my squad are. 2 mistakes and i'm 2-0 down and it's difficult to recover. WTB "Don't be such muppets" shout.

This thread might help you;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/303298-Going-Behind-In-A-Game-Turning-It-Around-(The-Discussion)

[donpost2]

Hi Cleon thanks for the great thread its given me a lot of ideas!

My question is do you ever change the match strategy during the match or do you just rely on shouts? I mean the part where you can change from standard to counter or control etc.

[Faramir]

Can't speak for Cleon, but I use both approaches- shouts and changing match strategy. Typically, I will change strategy at half-time (if we are either winning very easily- I might back off if playing attacking, or if playing poorly might switch to more forceful strategy if playing counter) or if we go a goal up (usually from about 75th minute on) where I will dial back if playing attacking- or even if control. Those are my most common switches on strategy. I use shouts to more closely manage the current flow of play.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon thanks for the great thread its given me a lot of ideas!

My question is do you ever change the match strategy during the match or do you just rely on shouts? I mean the part where you can change from standard to counter or control etc.

Yeah I change strategy too if needs be. I tend to start all games on standard

[strangepup]

Thank you...i learned a great deal from your post

[Cleon]

Thank you...i learned a great deal from your post

Cheers

[okeu]

this is an stupid question, the team instruction pass set short. then in shout i change pas to space are this is change pass in team instruction from short to direct or mixed?

[Cleon]

The shout will just make your current passing style shorter than it was.

[AlienIR]

Cleon;

your article is just amazingly great and complete. Just wanted to congratulate you first; then to thank you for sharing a point of vue not too mathematical. I really appreciate the way you see the game.

Have a nice day

[tyro]

Bumping this as its a great read and I want to review when I play to see if I can improve my game and spot mistakes.