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Tactics: Who understands them and who doesn't?

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I'm curious to know how others feel about tactics and their various settings, does everyone have a clear understanding of what they all do or do you struggle with them?

Personally I still find their meaning and how the 2D engine represents them elusive, even after educating myself by reading many threads.

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I'm curious to know how others feel about tactics and their various settings, does everyone have a clear understanding of what they all do or do you struggle with them?

Personally I still find their meaning and how the 2D engine represents them elusive, even after educating myself by reading many threads.

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The problem lies in the disparity between what the engine wants and what the end user is trying to achieve.

Once you learn the quirks, you can exploit the system the same as the A.i.

Sadly, a lot of people will loose a lot then decide they can't be arsed.

Which is why there was talk of 'difficulty' levels being introduced - basically so you can turn a sim into an arcade game for the xb0xorz.

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This is sadly an area where I find the game lets itself down. The wibble-wobble was unrealistic yes, but then so are the sliders. And the problem is that we have to guess at SI's interpretation of them. It seems so much guesswork to get a match played the way you want and while the answer to a problem should never be obvious, the use of a poor interface to create difficulty is not the way to set an appropriate difficulty level.

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I don't understand the tactics in FM...

When I hear people respond to 5-0 or 6-0 losses by saying they got the tactics wrong, or when I hear them say they have to change their tactics after five matches, it makes this aspect of the game seem very random. Almost as if you're trying to crack a code, which makes FM very different from real life.

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dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same...

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one example that tactics are weird, i was using my tactic and was losing at half time, was playing 4-3-1-2 and then pushed MR nd ML next to the strikers and pushed DL and DR to ML and MR and so i was playing 2-3-1-4 and increased mentality to full offensive, guess what i won 5-3... as if this would ever work IRL

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LFCrouchinho#15:

I don't understand the tactics in FM...

When I hear people respond to 5-0 or 6-0 losses by saying they got the tactics wrong, or when I hear them say they have to change their tactics after five matches, it makes this aspect of the game seem very random. Almost as if you're trying to crack a code, which makes FM very different from real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The word is arbitrary, not random. Arbitrary is worse.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a whole forum for tactics where a group of very intelligent guys clearly disagree with you.

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I'm certainly no expert and don't ever go into the T&TGF so I'm probably waaaay behind many others, but I think I have a reasonable idea of how things work and more importantly WHY they work.

The FM08 match engine obviously favours certain things in exactly the same way that the FM07 match engine, (and every other engine before it), did.

In FM07 physical stats ruled the roost and in particular, jumping was a particularly key attribute. I designed tactivs that would allow me to exploit these areas of the match engine.

With FM08 it's a little different. Physical stats still seem to be key, but the jumping attribute for example doesn't hold the same sway as it did in FM07 and therefore the effectiveness of the Target man has diminished.

In addition, the introduction of what many perceive to be "the 1v1 bug", the type of chance that you create seems also to have gained more significance. If that doesn't make sense, think og it like this. If your speedy striker breaks the defensive line and attacks down the middle of the pitch, it is unlikely that he will score a high percentage of the time. If however the same player is player in as he attacks from the flanks then he has a far better chance (percentage wise), of scoring.

Sorry, where the hell am I going with all this icon_rolleyes.gif?

Yes I understand them, (I think).

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These days, I'm so disillusioned by tactics that I don't bother with them at all. Same goes for any sort of analysis into the game. The thing with FM is that less is the same as more, and leaving the game alone as much as you can (not literally) produces around the same results as analysing tactics, players' attributes, opponents' weaknesses and strengths, at least for me.

It's just like betting on soccer. Do some basic homework and don't bother about advanced analysis, because things could go easily any way, and it's so random that you can say it is actually luck-based.

The game's just too arbitrary/random to be able to withstand consistent logical analysis.

In other words, in short, not bothering about analysing and microing the game tactically produces just about the same result as not doing so, assuming you've got the most basic fundamentals right.

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I think I've formed a pretty decent idea of how to get tactics to work. Typically I wouldn't concern myself with the little details. My starting point is to get the formation to perfectly suit the squad and the game I want to play with that particular squad. Then I roughly tune the team, using the basic sliders like tempo, passing etc. in no more than 3 points (low, medium, high). I let the game handle the player instructions automatically, and adjust where necessary (fi a winger with a bad dribble, I put "run with ball" on low). Anything else I feel is just guess work, and I don't care about it.

I'd like to tell my strikers to stay in the center while the team should play wide. I'd like to tell my wingers to not try to get a corner, either cross if there's space or try to shake of their man. I'd really love to tell my attacking mid who runs forward a lot that he should often try one-twos with one of my strikers. I don't have a clue how I should get these messages over to my players, and the game doesn't really give me any hints how to do it. I flat out hate the tactics interface. Then again I've never encountered a game where I like the tactics. Perhaps it's just too complex.

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Personally I have never used the tactics forum and pick a tactic based on the team that I have, I would like to believe I have a good knowledge of general tactics having watched a lot of football, and not just the football in the glare of the medi,a but English lower league football.

I very rarely change a formation or tactic during a season unless I get into a slump which I must admit does happen from time to time.

Although during a game if my tactics don’t seem to be working I am often willing to make a drastic change, for instance switch from a more direct route to a slower short passing game in order to increase my amount of possession, or vise verca if I am getting lots of possession but not doing anything with it.

So to cut a long story short YES I understand the tactics.

However despite this I still get my tactics wrong which I believe may be where a lot of people start to complain saying “the tactics are all wrong†or “I get loads of shots but don’t scoreâ€, but hey that is another story.

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I'm quite happy I understand the tactical side of the game and how to work it with the match engine.

I find that the much mentioned 1v1 problem is solved most often by playing wide, attacking football. That seems to be something that has got better in FM08. In a couple of the previous versions, most success seemed to be obtained using tight "through the middle" type tactics.

Dispite the knockers of this "buggy" match engine, IMO it's actually the best and most realistic to date.

I think that people are expecting too much of a game for it ever to be a trully realistic football experience. I do think however, as the game has become more detailed over the years, it has frightened more casual gamers.

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Sometimes I think I understand tactis but then again sometimes I don't, when you are winning everything seems logical but when you start losing it can be anything and this can be very frustating.

Sometimes I even win matches and wonder why my team played so well icon_smile.gif

I do think that things happening around the actual football match and tactics, like team talks and media responses, have a to big impact on what happens on the pitch.

Thats why I completely ignore the media and such.

And it would be nice to have the following tactical option for defenders: "If you really cant think of anything else just hoof the ball forward". Instead of just standing still and let the ball taken away and leading to a counter attack.

in fm08 nothing is certain icon_smile.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You would think that but actually a single click (out of 20) can transform a tactic- and this is where the main issue lies with FMs tactics in that a teeny change can be light and day in terms of how a tactic performs. This is why people will get frustrated as this is pure luck and tinkering, its nothing to do with tactical knowledge.

A recent example I have is that I switched my L1 Burnley side to a slower paced, short, defensive game in order to try and get around the 1v1 issue.

Anyway I had a degree of success- after 10 games I was 5th with 4 wins and 6 draws- very tight at the back and having loads of possession but I reckoned I should be doing better as Id managed to aquire a striker that was borderline Premiership quality and had a couple of good AMX/STs with good finishing.

Anyway I raised tempo by one notch out of 20 and suddenly I won the next 7 games, raising my goals per game from 1.something to nearly 3 per game.

This is just plain wrong- real life managers do not make teeny changes like this and even then a single notch should not be able to transform a tactic.

Sliders should ideally be 5 notches- eg:

None, Rarely, Occasionally, Often, All the time

Or some variation of this. The current system is madness as for many casual players success could just be down to pure luck in your slider choices.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">in fm08 nothing is certain </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that my big fat GK will score more than your big fat GK icon_wink.gif.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway I raised tempo by one notch out of 20 and suddenly I won the next 7 games, raising my goals per game from 1.something to nearly 3 per game.

This is just plain wrong- real life managers do not make teeny changes like this and even then a single notch should not be able to transform a tactic.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think it is the sliders that are "plain wrong" but your analysis of what the sliders did, you were already on a good unbeaten run, is it conceivable that it was your players high morale and believe having gone unbeaten for a long time that made them raise their game and start scoring freely and not they slight change in tactic.

I am not trying to criticise your post but give you an objective view of your great run of form

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dropp:

I do think that things happening around the actual football match and tactics, like team talks and media responses, have a to big impact on what happens on the pitch.

Thats why I completely ignore the media and such.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree totally.

Especially when for some reason SI have never chosen to give us the options to speak to our players and manage them in a more subtle and realistic manner.

Saying that subtlety is something I dont associate with FM, as too often new features are introduced that seem to have to show they are in the game by having huge positive or negative effects that at times ruin the game, even when your on the end of the positive effects.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RichardW:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway I raised tempo by one notch out of 20 and suddenly I won the next 7 games, raising my goals per game from 1.something to nearly 3 per game.

This is just plain wrong- real life managers do not make teeny changes like this and even then a single notch should not be able to transform a tactic.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think it is the sliders that are "plain wrong" but your analysis of what the sliders did, you were already on a good unbeaten run, is it conceivable that it was your players high morale and believe having gone unbeaten for a long time that made them raise their game and start scoring freely and not they slight change in tactic.

I am not trying to criticise your post but give you an objective view of your great run of form </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a good point, but this happens every new FM, at some point I hit a sweet point through tinkering and then that tactic is the one I use until the next release.

Regardless of this there is just no good reason for having so many notches on the sliders- if the effects are subtle then they will have no perceivable effect that is visible to the user, if they are not subtle then we get the issue I point to.

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I suppose this ambiguity is one reason we all want more feedback.

This is where the media could be useful- if its a confidence issue or a tactic geling then maybe the media can give a match report that states that the team looked confident or just more comfortable in the system.

ALternatively if it is the tactical change- then then could say that we played with more urgency and they couldnt live with how quickly we played the ball about.

The "fact" that it may be this or it may be that is why even longterm players of the game may at times find FM a bewildering and frustrating experience.

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I have no idea whatsoever about tactics. I am a sham and I use a downloaded tactic.

My main problem is that I stick to 4-4-2 because that's what I like in real life but when it comes to it my team plays lovely football and build up play is excellent but I just can't defend and spurn far too many chances.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

I suppose this ambiguity is one reason we all want more feedback.

This is where the media could be useful- if its a confidence issue or a tactic geling then maybe the media can give a match report that states that the team looked confident or just more comfortable in the system.

ALternatively if it is the tactical change- then then could say that we played with more urgency and they couldnt live with how quickly we played the ball about.

The "fact" that it may be this or it may be that is why even longterm players of the game may at times find FM a bewildering and frustrating experience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good point, would like to see more variety in press reports regarding matches. Which would help you with you tactics.

For instance a match report saying "Despite Team A having a large amount of possesion and dominating the game they could not penetrate team B defence and many of their effors were long range"

This could silence a lot of critics saying they have a bad shot to goal ratio

Or even "Team B played superbly on the counter attack today scoring freely at every opputunity" Manager B clearly got his tactics right today"

Alltough this type of indepth press report on each game you play will never happen as it is probably too hard to incoprate into the game

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

I have no idea whatsoever about tactics. I am a sham and I use a downloaded tactic.

My main problem is that I stick to 4-4-2 because that's what I like in real life but when it comes to it my team plays lovely football and build up play is excellent but I just can't defend and spurn far too many chances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

442 hasnt been that great in FM since FM06 imo.

Maybe try a 4132 or 41221 (a 433 with DM and AMR/Ls)- they are very solid especially with a good DM.

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Interesting mix of responses. Personally I feel the tactical settings are too vague and the feedback provided by the match engine rather cryptic.

Unfortunately SI haven't made any improvements to the tactical settings since they discarded the Wibble/Wobble screen and it seems our pleas for more information or better feedback systems goes unheard each year. Granted SI have finally made the manual more descriptive but still for newcomers to the series it's not enough.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

This is sadly an area where I find the game lets itself down. The wibble-wobble was unrealistic yes, but then so are the sliders. And the problem is that we have to guess at SI's interpretation of them. It seems so much guesswork to get a match played the way you want and while the answer to a problem should never be obvious, the use of a poor interface to create difficulty is not the way to set an appropriate difficulty level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the wibble/wobble that unrealistic though?

After all real life managers use whiteboards or tactical boards to put across tactical ideas- and w/w was imo a decent way of replicating this.

I so wish SI had refined this rather than chucking it out of the window totally.

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I have a good idea of how they SHOULD work, but i've found FM08 to be by far the least consistent FM yet, so i suspect that i've yet to find a tactic that actually works for that match engine.

Although tbh the tiny tweaking that is often neeeded is getting laughable icon_frown.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

I have a good idea of how they SHOULD work, but i've found FM08 to be by far the least consistent FM yet, so i suspect that i've yet to find a tactic that actually works for that match engine.

Although tbh the tiny tweaking that is often neeeded is getting laughable icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should stop looking for a tactic to beat the match engine but instead a tactic to beat the team you are playing.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RichardW:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

I have a good idea of how they SHOULD work, but i've found FM08 to be by far the least consistent FM yet, so i suspect that i've yet to find a tactic that actually works for that match engine.

Although tbh the tiny tweaking that is often neeeded is getting laughable icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should stop looking for a tactic to beat the match engine but instead a tactic to beat the team you are playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry you've got the wrong end of the stick. I was looking for tactics that would suit the players IRL. But as these just created far too many chances which were then missed i started just trying to beat the game.

That said, playing 1 up front creates a rediculous amount of missed 1 v 1s, perhaps wing forwards are the way forward?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RichardW:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ched:

I have a good idea of how they SHOULD work, but i've found FM08 to be by far the least consistent FM yet, so i suspect that i've yet to find a tactic that actually works for that match engine.

Although tbh the tiny tweaking that is often neeeded is getting laughable icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should stop looking for a tactic to beat the match engine but instead a tactic to beat the team you are playing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry you've got the wrong end of the stick. I was looking for tactics that would suit the players IRL. But as these just created far too many chances which were then missed i started just trying to beat the game.

That said, playing 1 up front creates a rediculous amount of missed 1 v 1s, perhaps wing forwards are the way forward? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i play good old fasion 442 and have no problems in 5th year with wrexham and in the championship just off play-offs.

Initially in my first couple of seasons i played a fast tempo direct style resulting in lots of shots but also a lot of counter attack agaisnt me, it was team with best forwards would win. Fortunatly i often had the better forwards

Now i have better quality i play a short passing slow build up, So far this seems to work i have had a lot of 1-0 and 2-0 wins with average shots of bout 10 a game half on half off target

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

This is sadly an area where I find the game lets itself down. The wibble-wobble was unrealistic yes, but then so are the sliders. And the problem is that we have to guess at SI's interpretation of them. It seems so much guesswork to get a match played the way you want and while the answer to a problem should never be obvious, the use of a poor interface to create difficulty is not the way to set an appropriate difficulty level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the wibble/wobble that unrealistic though?

After all real life managers use whiteboards or tactical boards to put across tactical ideas- and w/w was imo a decent way of replicating this.

I so wish SI had refined this rather than chucking it out of the window totally. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do actually like wibble wobble. It was a good gaming system, though undoubtedly for the hardcore gamer. However, a manager would no more tell his players where exactly to stand on the pitch when the ball is in section A as he would suggest that a player attack 45% of the time and not 40% or 50%.

As a purely gaming thing, I'd call the Wibble Wobble the better interface, being more visual, but I recall some mention of it being discarded due to it making it too easy to produce a supertactic in the presence of a 2d engine. If that is so, it's disappointing that the solution chosen was to nerf the interface rather than improve the AI.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

This is sadly an area where I find the game lets itself down. The wibble-wobble was unrealistic yes, but then so are the sliders. And the problem is that we have to guess at SI's interpretation of them. It seems so much guesswork to get a match played the way you want and while the answer to a problem should never be obvious, the use of a poor interface to create difficulty is not the way to set an appropriate difficulty level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the wibble/wobble that unrealistic though?

After all real life managers use whiteboards or tactical boards to put across tactical ideas- and w/w was imo a decent way of replicating this.

I so wish SI had refined this rather than chucking it out of the window totally. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do actually like wibble wobble. It was a good gaming system, though undoubtedly for the hardcore gamer. However, a manager would no more tell his players where exactly to stand on the pitch when the ball is in section A as he would suggest that a player attack 45% of the time and not 40% or 50%.

As a purely gaming thing, I'd call the Wibble Wobble the better interface, being more visual, but I recall some mention of it being discarded due to it making it too easy to produce a supertactic in the presence of a 2d engine. If that is so, it's disappointing that the solution chosen was to nerf the interface rather than improve the AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, thats why it was discarded.

This is pure speculation but with SI choosing to nerf finishing for the 8.01 patch rather than fix the defending it does percievably appear that SI have made some decisions because they are easy, rather than possibly being the right ones for the game.

Thje removal of W/Wo was one such for me- rather than fix the match engine so certain tactics could exploit the 2D engine in its infancy they instead removed what for me was the most intuitive tactical tool there was.

I agree that real managers dont tell their players where exactly to stand, but imagine how useful a refined W/Wo system would be.......

We would be able to position our players more creatively and flexibly for set pieces.

We could give our players more direct positioning instructions, making it so much more intuitive when creating a 451 that turns into a 433 and vice versa.

We could show our defenders where the line is, even the line for defending freekicks etc. Rather than hope the interface gets what we are aiming for.

I know all of this can be done using the existing setup but how easier would it be with any kind of visual way to setup tactics.

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The big problem is that tactics are abstract, they're really hard to communicate in a discrete way that a computer can understand.

This is what causes all the problems of interpretation. The only way to find the right balance of, for example, the width of your formation is to constantly tweak it, but then every time you tweak it it breaks something else in the formation, so you'll have to tweak that as well. With the dizzying array of sliders and tick boxes plus all the off-the-pitch factors, it's just confusing and frustrating.

To be honest, I really don't understand tactics, a lot of the subtleties of everything you change is lost on me.

Maybe the tactics can be broken down in to simpler levels to make it more accessible.

Something like:

1. The objective level - Most of the time you'll want to go for the win, but if you're outclassed you can tell you can set your tactics up to grind out a draw.

2. The strategic level - How the team achieves the objective - Tell your team to be really energetic and positive, or sit really deep and compact.

3. The player to player level - How each player achieves your strategy - Tell your centre backs to stick to the opposition strikers like glue, and rough them up, tell your wingers to get right beside your fullbacks to harass the opposition wingers, and run around their fullback to exploit is lack of pace.

I think at the moment, setting up a tactic in FM is akin to level 3. I think the more simple minded of us would prefer something along the lines of level 1 and 2, which can just be tick boxes or three position sliders.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm fairly similar to that, only I use Five settings.

eg. Ultra Defensive / Defensive / Normal / Attacking / All Out Attack

I don't buy into that "twenty increments" nonsense.

How on Earth would a manager IRL get that across to the players?

"Right Lads, Fulham at home last week was easy at attacking number 17, but Portsmouth away; we'll need to take it down to about 12 and keep it tight for a while..." icon_confused.gif

Trash.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm fairly similar to that, only I use Five settings.

eg. Ultra Defensive / Defensive / Normal / Attacking / All Out Attack

I don't buy into that "twenty increments" nonsense.

How on Earth would a manager IRL get that across to the players?

"Right Lads, Fulham at home last week was easy at attacking number 17, but Portsmouth away; we'll need to take it down to about 12 and keep it tight for a while..." icon_confused.gif

Trash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly- which begs the question- "why on earth did SI decide 20 was a good idea?"

SI?

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I base all of my tactics on what I'd do in real life rather than what the game wants me to do. This isn't as successful as some but I find it far more enjoyable than spending all my time trying to crack the match engine, especially as it changes after each patch. I understand real football tactics and can generally say why a team is doing well or badly but this is a waste of time in FM as it would be very difficult based on highlights. If something is going badly wrong it is clear form the stats and I might tweak or change my tactics. But I use one from two for every single game at the start.

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Personally, I think I'm quite good on the tactical side of things. I'm no genius, but I have had much more success then I have had failings.

The one thing I don't like is the slider system and how it works. I don't have a problem with sliders being used, it's just that I feel we need a graphical representation on the positions screen of how the changes we make are affecting the shape and positioning of our team.

For example, if I set my strikers to have a mentallity of 10 and 20, I'd like it to be shown on the position screen that one player is playing further up then the other.

Also, with closing down, when adjusting this, it would be good if we could see the area of the pitch the player is likely to close down in. More graphical representaion for tactic would make it easier for new players and novices to set tactics IMO.

Finally, and most improtantly, I feel we need an analysis tool. CM has one in ProZone, and whilst I think it's not really any better then using the match report tool in FM, at least it has one. If FM had a tool in which the assistant gave feedback for each match (with how good this is based upon his tactical knowledge attribute) then it would be a lot easier for people to get a beter understanding of why there tactic doesn't work.

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It has taken a lot of trial and error, and a peak at the fanzine, before I got to grips with the tactics.

I should say, however, that I have a friend that never sets individual instrutions and always plays a direct 4-4-2 with hard tackling regardless of his club or players available to him, and generally does very well, doesn't seem to work for me though icon_confused.gif

Figuring out the closing down instruction was key for me.

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There was a very popular thread on just this subject for FM06, where the general consensus was, "no, we aren't given enough information on tactics". The manual is/was (I'm still on FM06) very skimpy on a very central part of the game. There's no indication in the manual on what the setting actually do - i.e. what SI understand a "forward run" or "man marking" to be. The problem seems to be that everyone has a different interpretation of what they think a setting should affect. Rather than guessing, SI should just write a decent manual.

For example, the description of creative freedom was something like "do you have a team full of Brazilians? Then enable this setting". That's not helpful info, as it doesn't tell you:

a) what "Brazilians" is meant to mean (skillful players? flair players? creative players?)

b) what the players will really do if you set it high or low (do they try more creative killer passes? Do they try more tricks? Do they just have more freedom regarding your instructions (as SI claim)). These things should be put in plain and simple English. We need a definition, not a glossing over.

If you're interested, I can post the link to the old thread...

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Starr_Man5:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:

dont reallly care much about it, i only use sliders in 3 positions, minimum,normal,maximum because everything else seems to always be the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm fairly similar to that, only I use Five settings.

eg. Ultra Defensive / Defensive / Normal / Attacking / All Out Attack

I don't buy into that "twenty increments" nonsense.

How on Earth would a manager IRL get that across to the players?

"Right Lads, Fulham at home last week was easy at attacking number 17, but Portsmouth away; we'll need to take it down to about 12 and keep it tight for a while..." icon_confused.gif

Trash. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

icon14.gificon14.gif

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I can get my team doing what I want them do.

However, that doesn't always result in a win.

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I thought I did. But just when I think I do, it slip slides away...

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I was playing against Spurs with my 4-3-1-2 (Reading) they ripped me to shreds for 25 mins and eventually scored, I immediately changed to a 4-1-3-2 changing some personal instructions and players, we got back into the game and drew 1-1. Great? Maybe, I don't know if it was because of my changes or just because Spurs scored and 'lost interest' in the game.

I don't know if I'm a tactical genius or just lucky with transfers/injuries/morale at this point. Actually in no way am I lucky with injuries I have 8 central midfielders injured and only 1 goalkeeper put of 4 fit at the moment. icon_mad.gif

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On a good day when I'm outwitting someone like Paul Ince on his own turf despite his team having all the possession I feel as though I understand the tactics. On another day when I'm losing at home again to a crappy team because I always seem to play badly at home despite altering my tactics, then I don't understand the tactics.

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Unfortunately I still have no idea when it comes to tactics in FM08. I've managed quite well in every iteration of the game so far, but the key points in the 08 engine eludes me. I'm afraid I'm seriously stuck and without a far superior team I'll never be able to "punch above my weight".

I havent given up yet though, but a sacking is just around the corner in my current game and that may be the proverbial straw.

FM08 is the very first game I've ever been sacked in icon_frown.gif

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I find myself having some idea about the tactics but for whatever reason i can't seem to work idividual tactics and team tactics together.

i mean one day a can beat the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea at away {all be it im playin as Liverpool} and lose to Portsmouth, Reading and Derby at home.

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It's frustrating to build your own. I can usually recognize what's going wrong but I don't know how to fix it.

IE: I was playing Barcelona and Messi and Ronaldinho kept running going the flanks and getting in good crosses. I did what I thought should work and made my fullbacks mark them closely and backtrack, but they still got outran and Ronaldinho and Messi just cut inside and passed to a wide-open Henry. Nothing I did seemed to work.

Like others have mentioned, results seem arbitrary. One game I struggle to beat Almeria (who are in last) at home and the next I crush Sevilla 4-1 away. Sometimes, things just seem to work out, but I think there is too much emphasis on tactics. If you put Manchester United out there against Derby, for instance, and tell them to do whatever the hell they want, I'm sure United would still win just based on player talent.

It's made even more unreasonable when your players miss the easiest chances that even I could make (and I suck). I had to quit my old Aston Villa game because my team just would not score no matter what tactic I downloaded. I quit after a game v. West Ham where I had 17 shots on target and scored once. West Ham won in injury time on a blatantly offside goal. La Liga is going better, even though my board was unhappy with a 1-1 draw at Barcelona where they scored (yet another) offside equalizer in injury time. To be fair, they should have scored like 10 goals but their finishing was user-like (20 shots, like 7 on target) while mine was AI-like (1 shot on target, one goal)!

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It seems like a lot of people have problems with the mystery surrounding tactics, how do others think the tactical settings can be improved upon?

I'd like to see less rigidity in initial placement of positions for the formation, it's just too restrictive and there is only so much you can do with mentality and the width settings without throwing off the entire formation. I also wouldn't mind the mentality slider being split up into two separate settings: positioning and play style, having them combined doesn't allow enough freedom. Also, do we really need to have such specific increments for some of the sliders, such as closing down, passing style, creative freedom etc? Speaking of creative freedom, I despise this setting because it seems impossible to tell if the setting you've given a player is correct or causing problems, it's too easy to get it confused with the plethora of other settings a player may have.

I also think it's time the match statistics we're improved upon, these haven't changed since who know's how long. I'd like to see Action Zones expanded and split into possession by position, more indepth passing statistics for each player on what and where worked and what didn't. There is just too much reliance on watching full matches to pick out mistakes that highlights normally don't show.

Basically we need better match analysis tools I feel because the current match engine/statistics and the way it ties back to our tactics is feeling rather stale making the job of tweaking already ambiguous tactical settings even more difficult.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

This is sadly an area where I find the game lets itself down. The wibble-wobble was unrealistic yes, but then so are the sliders. And the problem is that we have to guess at SI's interpretation of them. It seems so much guesswork to get a match played the way you want and while the answer to a problem should never be obvious, the use of a poor interface to create difficulty is not the way to set an appropriate difficulty level. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the wibble/wobble that unrealistic though?

After all real life managers use whiteboards or tactical boards to put across tactical ideas- and w/w was imo a decent way of replicating this.

I so wish SI had refined this rather than chucking it out of the window totally. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do actually like wibble wobble. It was a good gaming system, though undoubtedly for the hardcore gamer. However, a manager would no more tell his players where exactly to stand on the pitch when the ball is in section A as he would suggest that a player attack 45% of the time and not 40% or 50%.

As a purely gaming thing, I'd call the Wibble Wobble the better interface, being more visual, but I recall some mention of it being discarded due to it making it too easy to produce a supertactic in the presence of a 2d engine. If that is so, it's disappointing that the solution chosen was to nerf the interface rather than improve the AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, thats why it was discarded.

This is pure speculation but with SI choosing to nerf finishing for the 8.01 patch rather than fix the defending it does percievably appear that SI have made some decisions because they are easy, rather than possibly being the right ones for the game.

Thje removal of W/Wo was one such for me- rather than fix the match engine so certain tactics could exploit the 2D engine in its infancy they instead removed what for me was the most intuitive tactical tool there was.

I agree that real managers dont tell their players where exactly to stand, but imagine how useful a refined W/Wo system would be.......

We would be able to position our players more creatively and flexibly for set pieces.

We could give our players more direct positioning instructions, making it so much more intuitive when creating a 451 that turns into a 433 and vice versa.

We could show our defenders where the line is, even the line for defending freekicks etc. Rather than hope the interface gets what we are aiming for.

I know all of this can be done using the existing setup but how easier would it be with any kind of visual way to setup tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another example would be the nerfing of Dean Ashton's stats as he was scoring too many goals, rather than look at the way that his proper stats were not being handled properly by the match engine. It's just not very professional.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Seagulls Forever:

Another example would be the nerfing of Dean Ashton's stats as he was scoring too many goals, rather than look at the way that his proper stats were not being handled properly by the match engine. It's just not very professional. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did the same thing with john terry, hence why ballack would often end up as chelsea captain in the game, simply because rather than sort out the way the game worked they just dropped his stats.

Similarly, the tranmere chairperson was changed as it is meant to be lorraine rodgers, however because SI couldn't be bothered changing the text to include female names they just changed it so that she isn't the chairperson.

The more i play this game, the more it's getting damaged by shortcuts.

If we're not careful it'll end up like the master league on pro evo - where any player under 19 ahs to have appalling stats just so that the youth model works!

Am predicting at this rate that'll happen by FM15.....hopefully i'm just being cynical.

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