S2008

Should I bother starting a save on FM 2012 or is it too broken?

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Reading through some of the threads has made me begin to wonder whether I should bother starting a new save on this game because it sounds horrific. The team talk system is broken, there are far too many injuries and the fact that the add/remove league feature has become a game killer are the reasons that I am wondering if I should just stick to my save on FM 2011?

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I wouldn't say FM12 is too broken.

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect.

Regarding injuries I 'm sure I;ve read that they are on a par with real life, the difference being that in FM injuries tend to happen in game which is why you notice it more, whereas IRL a lot of injuries are picked up on the training ground.

With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.

In short, go for it!

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Stick to the default database, don't use team talks, and avoid the add/remove leagues feature like the plague, and you should be good to go :thup:

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FM12 is the least broken FM to date ffs. I've never had any problems with the add/remove league feature (though would recommend saving before a new league is actually added in just in case), team talks work perfectly well, and the game is the most polished SI have ever released.

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[quote name='mije1983']I wouldn't say FM12 is too broken.

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect.

Regarding injuries I 'm sure I;ve read that they are on a par with real life, the difference being that in FM injuries tend to happen in game which is why you notice it more, whereas IRL a lot of injuries are picked up on the training ground.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.[/COLOR]

In short, go for it![/QUOTE]

The problem with the add/remove leagues feature isn't so much when you add them, or how many you add, its the fact that once you use it your database will eventually fill up with thousands of low PA regens. I only added 2 or 3 leagues to my starting database of 19,000 players, 8 seasons later there's 225,000 players in it now. Game is unplayable (or was until I found a 3rd party fix).

I wouldn't recommend using it all to be honest. Not until SI have fixed it.

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I critisize the game a lot, from flaws in ME to flawfull transfer system to poor AI, but it is still enjoyable if you are not looking for an A+ game.

If I must compare it to FM 2011, I would say start a new game in FM 2012 because although minor there are some improvements in the AI transfers and squad building and also minor improvements on AI's tactical choices. Those minor improvements make the game a little more challenging and realistic.

I would give FM 2011 a 'B' and FM 2012 a 'B+'.

I think the criticism is harsh because in a version where there was no new ME, people (including me) were expecting a huge improvement in other areas (especially transfer system) and it didn't come unfortunately. But it still is a good game, and to answer your question, a better game than FM2011, worth starting a new game rather than sticking with FM2011 imo.

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[quote name='Erimus1876']The problem with the add/remove leagues feature isn't so much when you add them, or how many you add, its the fact that once you use it your database will eventually fill up with thousands of low PA regens. I only added 2 or 3 leagues to my starting database of 19,000 players, 8 seasons later there's 225,000 players in it now. Game is unplayable (or was until I found a 3rd party fix).

I wouldn't recommend using it all to be honest. Not until SI have fixed it.[/QUOTE]

When I said add them at the beginning, I meant when you start a new game and select the leagues.

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[quote name='mije1983']When I said add them at the beginning, I meant when you start a new game and select the leagues.[/QUOTE]

Ah right. Yes that should be ok. The problems start once you use the feature to add to your starting database.

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Nothing wrong with team talks in my opinion, I started with a low reputation and got a job as Norwich manager the team didn't listen much at first but after a season or so they started to take in what I said. This is how it would work in real life with an inexperienced low reputation manager. Once you have a high reputation team talks are absolutely fine.

As has already been said adding leagues really messes the game up by adding tens of thousands of unneeded players. Personally I will start with a lot of leagues and then remove them the further I get in the save. For me FM12 is the best version of FM I couldn't imagine playing any of the older games now.

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[quote name='mije1983']

Team talks work depending on your rep, just as it should. Why should highly paid players care what a rookie manager with no experience says? They are bound to switch off or the talk have no effect. [/quote]

For that matter, why should you walk in at Barcelona or at Man United anyway?

If I can pick up ANY club as I start a new save, the gameworld should recognize me as "good enough" regardless of my starting reputation... Otherwise as a rookie manager I shouldn't be able to choose a Top Club with automatic/sunday league reputation.

I see there was a huge issue with teamtalks working too well and with players with Superb morale playing way above their standard... but SI just adopted the usual "overmedicating" approach, so teamtalks went from "click and win" to "don't bother, they won't listen".


[quote]With the Add/Remove leagues feature, as you know it could impact your game if you add too many, then just don't add them, or add them at the beginning of the game when you start where it doesn't have an impact.. I wouldn't say it's a game killer as you just need to be sensible.
[/QUOTE]

So the long-awaited feature, the HOTTEST ADDITION to FM12 shouldn't be used the way it was supposed to be because it's too buggy... ;)

If I have to be "sensible", basically NOT using the add/remove league feature, I'm more or less playing FM11 11.4 or something like that...

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[quote name='RBKalle']If I can pick up ANY club as I start a new save, the gameworld should recognize me as "good enough" regardless of my starting reputation... Otherwise as a rookie manager I shouldn't be able to choose a Top Club with automatic/sunday league reputation.[/QUOTE]

Then what would be the point of past experience? I guess by your reply that you would be strongly in favour of SI getting rid of it then as you think you should be good enough regardless?

The starting rep is there for people who want different challenges. If you want a challenge select sunday league, if you want an easier game select international footballer. The game isn't impossible if you take over a big team with no experience (I've done it), but it does make it more of a challenge.


[quote name='RBKalle']So the long-awaited feature, the HOTTEST ADDITION to FM12 shouldn't be used the way it was supposed to be because it's too buggy... ;)

If I have to be "sensible", basically NOT using the add/remove league feature, I'm more or less playing FM11 11.4 or something like that...[/QUOTE]
It doesn't automatically kill your game, and I wouldn't say it's the be all and end all of whether you play FM12. I've used the feature (although only 2 leagues) and not noticed any issue , and I'm now 10 years into that save, but I know it is a problem. I'm sure if I had started with more leagues at the beginning then I would have felt it more.

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Team talks are fine, injuries are fine but add/remove leagues is bugged i'm afraid.

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I have edited your post no need to swear on the forums.

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Play the game and determine your own opinion, don't take what everyone says on here as gospel. Just get stuck in.

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The game is fine though i never used the add/remove leagues feature so i didn't know it was bugged.

Everything else is fine in my opinion.

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[quote name='GazTheDoood']Play the game and determine your own opinion, don't take what everyone says on here as gospel. Just get stuck in.[/QUOTE]

Probably the best advice so far, these forums can put people off at times but there are a lot of people that never post on here because they are happy with the game.

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[quote name='AcidBurn']I have edited your post no need to swear on the forums.[/QUOTE]

Ooops - Apologies

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[quote name='AcidBurn']Probably the best advice so far, these forums can put people off at times but there are a lot of people that never post on here because they are happy with the game.[/QUOTE]

Exactly this. For every one complaint on here, there are probably 1000 satisfied customers.

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[quote name='mije1983']Then what would be the point of past experience? I guess by your reply that you would be strongly in favour of SI getting rid of it then as you think you should be good enough regardless?

[B]The starting rep is there for people who want different challenges. If you want a challenge select sunday league, if you want an easier game select international footballer[/B]. The game isn't impossible if you take over a big team with no experience (I've done it), but it does make it more of a challenge.



It doesn't automatically kill your game, and I wouldn't say it's the be all and end all of whether you play FM12. I've used the feature (although only 2 leagues) and not noticed any issue , and I'm now 10 years into that save, but I know it is a problem. I'm sure if I had started with more leagues at the beginning then I would have felt it more.[/QUOTE]

Yes starting as International Footballer is nice and all, but you still start out as a manager with zero prior experience so it will still take a few major titles before the largest teams in the game starts listening to you. It sounds okay in theory, but in practice the game is actively sabotaging your efforts indefinitely (if you don't win something). That is poor game design, not "difficulty". If SI truly wanted the game to be more challenging, they would have made sure that the AI managers actually use the features in the game properly instead of making the game unplayable the first 30-50 playing hours.

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I have used the add remove leagues thing to add a few leagues into my game, i havent noticed any issues 25 seasons in so far, what exactly happens?

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Adds too many players when adding leagues. It is a problem SI have acknowledged in another thread.

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I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?

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[quote name='Kenco']Exactly this. For every one complaint on here, there are probably 1000 satisfied customers.[/QUOTE]

And this come from certified statistics I suppose?

A satisfied customer doesn't mean that a product is necessarily good. It means that is good enough for that individual. Each person has different standards on what to expect from giving away his money,so no,you don't prove that the game is good.

And if for every complaint there were 1000 satisfied customers,then that means FM has sold at least a couple million copies...Hmm,let's see...with that amount of income I'm even more unsatisfied and I expect to see much more than absolutely no fully functioning features than last year and zero polishing on the already existant features.

See? It's all a matter of perceptive. If 3/4 of the american citizens are satisfied with their goverments war politics,that doesn't mean it's good as well.

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I've had no problems adding leagues. :confused:

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[quote name='milnerpoint']I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?[/QUOTE]

My game started with around 50,000 players and after adding and removing a few leagues by the time I got to 2020 there were 150,000 players in the database. It made the game run too slow for my liking and the challenge I was doing would have required me to add a few more leagues. Removing them might help a little bit but I when I removed them I noticed no difference.

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[quote name='AcidBurn']My game started with around 50,000 players and after adding and removing a few leagues by the time I got to 2020 there were 150,000 players in the database. It made the game run too slow for my liking and the challenge I was doing would have required me to add a few more leagues. Removing them might help a little bit but I when I removed them I noticed no difference.[/QUOTE]

Cheers man ill keep my eye on it! I did start with a big database anyway so i might not notice it as much, plus i got an extra 2 gb or ram added not long ago so i guess i prob wouldnt notice a slow down as much as i might have done.
Does it add tons of players that will play for teams, or is it tons of very low PA players that will do nothing but clog up the database?
Sorry for the questions its not something i have read up on at all!

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[quote name='milnerpoint']I'm not denying its a problem, just i hadnt noticed it in my game or read about it. Whats the dangers, will it slow the game down too much later on? Will removing leagues make any difference?[/QUOTE]

Yeah it will slow the game down but I by the time I noticed a difference the database had already increased significantly. It was only when I went to the player search, which I don't usually use, and noticed how long it took to load up that I realised something wasn't right. I then removed a bunch of leagues and then checked back after those leagues had become inactive but the player count remained roughly the same.

I was told that, after time, the database would decrease as players began to retire but it would not be quick. My plan was to use FMRTE to retire players but because of the spelling mistakes on the start screen I am not willing to trust that on a ten season save. Luckily for me my save is still playable if a little slow.

To be fair though, I would still add a league but in the knowledge that my database will increase.

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[quote name='marty78']Yeah it will slow the game down but I by the time I noticed a difference the database had already increased significantly. It was only when I went to the player search, which I don't usually use, and noticed how long it took to load up that I realised something wasn't right. I then removed a bunch of leagues and then checked back after those leagues had become inactive but the player count remained roughly the same.

I was told that, after time, the database would decrease as players began to retire but it would not be quick. My plan was to use FMRTE to retire players but because of the spelling mistakes on the start screen I am not willing to trust that on a ten season save. Luckily for me my save is still playable if a little slow.

To be fair though, I would still add a league but in the knowledge that my database will increase.[/QUOTE]

Is it likely to slow the game to a crawl or crash it eventually? I dont really mind it processing a bit slow, and i dont use the player search feature at all anyway so as long as it doesnt crash i dont think ill notice it too much.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Is it likely to slow the game to a crawl or crash it eventually? I dont really mind it processing a bit slow, and i dont use the player search feature at all anyway so as long as it doesnt crash i dont think ill notice it too much.[/QUOTE]

Well, I have since started another save which I tend to play more often and there is a clear difference in processing time but I have not had any crashes as yet. I don't normally use player search either but if I did then I wouldn't anymore as it takes far too long. It is playable though but I just wish I had known the repurcussions of adding leagues a bit earlier.

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Fair enough, cheers for the info man :)

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BTW how do you get players to retire via FMRTE?

I don't think there's an option to retire them forcibly, so the best I can come up with is either setting CA,PA and reputation to 1, or their age to 50...

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[quote name='RBKalle']BTW how do you get players to retire via FMRTE?

I don't think there's an option to retire them forcibly, so the best I can come up with is either setting CA,PA and reputation to 1, or their age to 50...[/QUOTE]

I was told to do it exactly how you said, changing age and CA but can't confirm it works.

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changing age should push through retirement quickly, especially if you do it before xmas by the end of that season most of them should retire.

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If you don't use the player search then you will just end up with a slow processing game. The speed of FM depends on what you are used to, I play quick and start my games with no more than 55,000 players for me that is quick enough. Some people added over 100,000 players and the speed is fine for them, that's why I dislike the how many leagues can I run on this PC threads.

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Here's what I did.

Searched for players with a maximium PA of 80.

This brought up 113,000 players out of 225,000 that were in my database.

I used the mass edit feature to make all those players 99 years old, expired all their contracts, reduced their CA & PA's to 10, and their reputations and attributes to 1 (so no one would resign them).

After 2 weeks game time over 50,000 of them had gone, making my game playable again.

It seems if I can keep my database below 200,000 players my game works fine, anything over that and it crashes everytime I try to play a match.


I'd only use this method if you're unable to play your game because of constant crashes. Basically use it as a last restort because I don't know if there will be any side effects further down the line yet, its too early to tell.

Back up your saved game first!

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Were most of those players attached to clubs or free agents?
The only thing i would be worried about would be getting rid of tons of lower league squads and the game trying to replace them, but im not quite sure how the game would handle that. I might have a look later on at my save.
I dont think the processing speed will bother me too much, as long as it doesnt indefinitely keep adding tons of players.....

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Cheers man ill keep my eye on it! I did start with a big database anyway so i might not notice it as much, plus i got an extra 2 gb or ram added not long ago so i guess i prob wouldnt notice a slow down as much as i might have done.
Does it add tons of players that will play for teams, or is it tons of very low PA players that will do nothing but clog up the database?
Sorry for the questions its not something i have read up on at all![/QUOTE]

It seems to add players to teams in countries you never even added.

For example, teams from countries like Kazakhstan (I've never added them) have proper players in them on my game, not just the "grey" players like they should. These proper players all have histories that seem to be constantly updated, along with their attributes too. If you can imagine all these players taking up processing time to update their histories and attributes its easy to see big problems will be inevitable sooner or later. It makes no sense to have proper players in leagues that were never loaded, either in your original start database, or added later.

I mentioned this on another thread but I suspect the add/remove leagues feature is adding thousands of players to teams not even in your starting database or added by you at a later date. Surely it should only add players to clubs from the nations you add?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Were most of those players attached to clubs or free agents?
The only thing i would be worried about would be getting rid of tons of lower league squads and the game trying to replace them, but im not quite sure how the game would handle that. I might have a look later on at my save.
I dont think the processing speed will bother me too much, as long as it doesnt indefinitely keep adding tons of players.....[/QUOTE]

The players were a mixture, some were attached to clubs, some were free agents etc. I think its a case of plugging the dam as best you can. You're effectively removing a large chunk of players from the game but the game will eventually replace them anyway.

Like I said, if you can use this method once a season to keep the number of players below the recommended threashold (175K I think) then everything seems ok... at least it has on mine so far.

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Cool ill have a look later on tonight, i dont suppose the smaller teams not having players makes a huge difference, i just play in scotland and when you get to the third division a PA of 80 is quite good so i dont want to take all the players away from them, but at the same time if its going to avoid any problems further on it will be worth it. I actually have no idea how many players are in my game i havent looked at the player search in about 10 seasons, ive always found that page a bit of a nightmare to work through.

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Here's an example of what I mean.

I picked a club at random.

This is a club from San Marino (a nation not in my starting db, or added later).

They should be made up of virtual "grey" players that have very little impact on processing times.

But as you can see, they are proper players whose stats, history, and attributes, are "real" and constantly being updated week after week...

[img]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2638/teambk.jpg[/img]


And this is this clubs sole contribution to my gameworld this season....

[img]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3286/team2oj.jpg[/img]


They played 2 games.

Yet for the rest of this season all their players stats etc will be constantly updated with make-believe statistics.

That team (along with 1000's of others not in loaded leagues in my game) should be full of grey players that don't take up processing time by having their stats constantly updated week after week.

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Any idea why it activates certain clubs and not others? I have come across loads of teams full of grey players but i dont look that often so what your describing is prob happening in my save as well.

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I don't know why its activating players from teams not even loaded, or why some have full squads of real players and some only half and half.

I'd like others to check their own games though and post here if its the same on theirs, so I know for sure its not just my saved game this is happening on.

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That club is also full of real players for me, but I've not added/removed any leagues.

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Yeah ill have a look through some teams tonight bud and let you know what i find, i cant believe its just your game tho, it must be spread across anyone who has used the add/remove feature.

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[quote name='dafuge']That club is also full of real players for me, but I've not added/removed any leagues.[/QUOTE]

Was it like that on FM11? I'm sure these type of smallish non-loaded clubs were full of grey players?

Maybe this is unrelated to the mass-generated low PA players the add/remove league feature seems create then.

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How do you find out how many players are currently in your game's database?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Yeah ill have a look through some teams tonight bud and let you know what i find, i cant believe its just your game tho, it must be spread across anyone who has used the add/remove feature.[/QUOTE]

Cheers :thup:

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What did you use as a set up for your game? Did you tell the game to load any players or anything like that?

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No. I just used the standard medium database and England was the only nation ticked.

10 seasons later I've added and removed Holland, Italy, and Spain (1st divisions), and removed leagues from England below the conference and I have/had 225,000 players in the game - 10 times more than when I started yet with less leagues active now. With many non-active clubs like the San Marino one posted above full of proper players too. But going by what dafuge says, its possible the smaller non-loaded clubs have real players anyway, so that could be unrelated to the add/remove league feature creating too many players.

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I assuming it works differently now to what it used to, because your right in previous versions these teams would not have real players in them unless you told the game to load them. Is it maybe a case of if they are in a european comp at any level they will get a full team of players?

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