ArsenalFan7

Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

600 posts in this topic

I probably won't bother returning but I'll leave you with those.

Is it my tactics? I don't know what to think anymore.

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[quote name='VonBlade']There are two obvious things here.
1) Generally most of us agree that in FM12 the 'woodwork' has a much greater impact that real life. Partially because it's so bias towards attacking play that we create more than realistic amounts of chances.
2) Everyone who disagrees believes it's 'our tactics'. Which is fine if someone will happily tell me where the "stop shooting from outside the box ALL the time" option is. Because it's not the 'long shots' slider, or the 'direct passing' slider, or the formation, or the 'work it into the box' shout.

Simply put if there was an option in the tactics to force my team to never take on the 25 yard option and always look for a man in the box, then the "it's your tactics" brigade would have some merit. As it is our tactics are vague hints and mere suggestions at best.[/QUOTE]
...................

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[url]http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5005/0shots1goal.png[/url]
0 shots on target 1 goal :confused: what rate is this? over 9 thousand %?

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It's your tactics!

I don't get that one, what's happened there?

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[quote name='Bebetu'][url]http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5005/0shots1goal.png[/url]
0 shots on target 1 goal :confused: what rate is this? over 9 thousand %?[/QUOTE]

I'd imagine a horribly wide shot that bounced off some poor defender into the goal.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvUdineseAnalysis_Analysis-2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvUdineseAnalysis_Analysis.png[/IMG]

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2 Shots on target, 1 goal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvMallorcaAnalysis_Analysis-3.png[/IMG]

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Y U NO GOOD FINISHERS? Y U NO WORK, WORK BALL INTO BOX SHOUT?

Zaragoza had no shots, not one shot. Is it my tactics? No. Losing faith.

[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvZaragozaAnalysis_Analysis.png[/IMG]

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So basically people, creating lots of chances in this game doesn't do you much good at all. :brock:

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Out of interest, how many of your closer chances are from set pieces? If it is a high percentage, then it looks like you are barely creating any good chances in open play.

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Is there an easy way to check this?

fwiw my team were the top scorers last year in the league with 96 goals, generally we are good finishers which makes the situation more strange for me.

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Not an easy way. Just go back to the chances screen for the Zaragoza match and click on the closer dots. You'll then see a replay of each chance. If they are all or mostly set pieces, you are a step closer to solving your problem.

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I had a look and I think I watched all of them, I counted 5 of the chances as being from set pieces. 2 of those being the saved efforts.

I just wish that I could suss how you get your players working it into the box :(

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So, basically you haven't created a single decent open play chance in the match. Your team is firing from all over the place instead of opening the defence up and creating good chances. Why is that do you think?

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I'd love to be able to know but I have no idea.

I tell my players to work it into the box, use a rigid philosophy, minimize the use of long shots through sliders, build up the play etc but they still won't listen, they just shoot when they feel like it and it ends up with lots of blocked shots and shots going wide.

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Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?

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Alright wwfan I'll make adjustments once again and we'll see how this works out.

ty ;)

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Below is an example of my chance spread. As you can see, I have a high number of chances from between the posts, in the box, within 12 yards, or all three. The team has only made one wild, speculative shot (blue shot, wide right). Place this in comparison with your Udinese and Zaragoza matches, when you average about 7 speculative shots, with none at all within 6 yards.

Provides you with something to aim at.

[IMG]http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p532/blaccrichard/Screenshot2012-04-05at104820AM.png[/IMG]

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Mmm, interesting, first game after the tactical changes and we get this result against the current league leaders.

Still a few long shots and 3 goals were set pieces (2 pens + 1 FK) but intriguing, every shot but one in the box went in. I'll continue to see how things turn out.


[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvBetisAnalysis_Analysis.png[/IMG]

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[quote name='ArsenalFan7']Counter attack is superior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure I had many long shots but those I did have a few good opportunities which ended up as nothing.

[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvMlagaStats_MatchStats.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvMlagaAnalysis_Analysis.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealvMlagaAnalysis_Analysis-2.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Just look at the Villareal shot statistics in this match! Awful!

What you want is a stat that isn't provided in the game; Open Chances. It is calculated from CCC (let's say at roughly 3 to 1)

So CCC are really "okay chances", half-chances are bad chances and other chances are not really chances at all. Now look at the stats again. While it is possible to score from Half-chances and Other chances (and worse), in this match you have not actually created anything at all. You say that "counter-attacks are superior". Of course they are! It is always easier to score against three or four defenders who are chasing the ball and players on the run than it is to score against nine or ten defenders waiting for you in position - this goes without saying. In addition, the way FM is set up, attacking mentality and tempo works together so that if you set the tempo to slow but a very attacking mentality your players will still not play patiently. Rather, they will try to finish the attacks themselves wherever they are regardless of long shots instructions as soon as there are no passing options directly in front of him.

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From 27 shots you created 1 that could have been described as a good chance! Thats incredible.
What did you do during that game when you saw what your team was doing?

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[quote name='HTRUYHT']it is amazing![IMG]http://www.50centloseweight.com[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Fairly sure this guy is trolling the forums.

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To be fair shooting levels have been extremely poor in this FM and I do wonder if it's to counteract the poor ME defending or every game would end up 6-5!! I have good finishers who hit the corner flag, shoot "pee rollers" along the floor, really poor efforts that you may see IRL once in a while but not often like in FM. The worst one is the ledt sided striker who blasts it into the side netting, especially a right footed striker in that left slot. I have tried to get him to cut inside but to no avail. The complete "fluffs" seem to have replaced the shots straight at the keeper in the first patch. To be fair the AI suffers from really bad misses as well.

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There is nothing wrong with the shooting in FM, its the chances created! This guy is creating 27 chances and only 1 is good enough to be close to a goal, that says nothing at all about the shooting and everything about the types of chances he is creating.

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[quote name='Sussex Hammer']To be fair shooting levels have been extremely poor in this FM and I do wonder if it's to counteract the poor ME defending or every game would end up 6-5!! I have good finishers who hit the corner flag, shoot "pee rollers" along the floor, really poor efforts that you may see IRL once in a while but not often like in FM. The worst one is the ledt sided striker who blasts it into the side netting, especially a right footed striker in that left slot. I have tried to get him to cut inside but to no avail. The complete "fluffs" seem to have replaced the shots straight at the keeper in the first patch. To be fair the AI suffers from really bad misses as well.[/QUOTE]

What have you set the width to?

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[quote name='BiggusD']What have you set the width to?[/QUOTE]

Mid range at Home and narrow away but I have played wide as well.

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[quote name='Sussex Hammer']Mid range at Home and narrow away but I have played wide as well.[/QUOTE]

Try to spot where your left striker receives the ball compared to their right central defender. If the latter has an easy time showing him onto his weaker foot, forcing a left-footed shot, he is likely receiving the ball too close to the 16-meter box and/or too close or far from the centre line. You adjust this with the Run From Deep, Mentality and Width sliders. Optimally, you would want your left striker to approach the goal on a 70-50 degree angle (as seen here: [URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Protractor.jpg"]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Protractor.jpg[/URL] ). Any wider or narrower than that and the keeper is at a huge advantage. In addition, their right CD should be at least a metre behind him if to his right, or ideally to his left or not there at all. Extreme pace is the easiest way to achieve that, but tactically you need to pull their CDR out of position if you don't have such quick strikers. Passing from one flank to the other is one way to do this, your strikers dropping deep is another. You can also trick him to mark or close down your left winger instead of the left striker, but then there is likely little space centrally anyway.

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[quote name='BiggusD']Try to spot where your left striker receives the ball compared to their right central defender. If the latter has an easy time showing him onto his weaker foot, forcing a left-footed shot, he is likely receiving the ball too close to the 16-meter box and/or too close or far from the centre line. You adjust this with the Run From Deep, Mentality and Width sliders. Optimally, you would want your left striker to approach the goal on a 70-50 degree angle (as seen here: [URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Protractor.jpg"]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Protractor.jpg[/URL] ). Any wider or narrower than that and the keeper is at a huge advantage. In addition, their right CD should be at least a metre behind him if to his right, or ideally to his left or not there at all. Extreme pace is the easiest way to achieve that, but tactically you need to pull their CDR out of position if you don't have such quick strikers. Passing from one flank to the other is one way to do this, your strikers dropping deep is another. You can also trick him to mark or close down your left winger instead of the left striker, but then there is likely little space centrally anyway.[/QUOTE]

Interesting thoughts and many thanks for that. It happens regularly no matter what settings the striker has even when I also tried swapping the strikers over with change position. I have played a flat two up front and have just found an old FM 11 tactic in which the left striker plays a lot deeper and roams. It is frustrating to see how he skins the centre back with his pace and has a clear run at goal and yet shoots into the side netting rather than shoot across the keeper or try and cut in on his right foot. Or even just slot the ball across the area to the right unmarked striker. May have something to do with finishing and composure stats but I had Paloschi in a previous long term save and he was the same despite top stats.

In FM 11 to be fair it was almost too easy, definitely with your right striker. Every time he was free of the last defender he would shoot beautifully low to the keepers right always nestling the ball in the bottom corner so maybe it has been tweaked.

Have to say I disagree with Milner point. Of course it's a lot to do with shooting. If strikers shoot properly you will score and thus means more chances are scored so you are less likely to be complaining about clear cut chances or chances created and still losing!!!! ;-)

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[quote name='Sussex Hammer']
Have to say I disagree with Milner point. Of course it's a lot to do with shooting. If strikers shoot properly you will score and thus means more chances are scored so you are less likely to be complaining about clear cut chances or chances created and still losing!!!! ;-)[/QUOTE]

If strikers are given good chances they will score from them, give them half chances or less and you will constantly see a repeat of the screen shots in this thread. There is a reason why a lot of us do not suffer from this problem, and we dont play special versions of the game. If your experiencing anything like we have seen in this thread it is 99% of time because of your tactics.

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There is isnt too much wrong with shooting in this game, apart from the occasional issue when players aren't quite shooting across goal as much as they should. But even then most intelligent strikers will do so. Certainly not extremely poor.

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Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.

Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.

What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.

Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?

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Is it Spurs in the last few weeks of this season that have needed around 25 shots per goal?

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[quote name='ArsenalFan7']Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.[/quote]

Your definition of chances is different to others in this thread.

You haven't created 27 chances in a game, you have had 27 shots in a game - Not the same thing.

If you create good chances you are rewarded with goals both in RL and on FM over time (Nb there will be fluctuations as you will go through good and bad spells).


[quote]Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?[/quote]

See above - They aren't really chances.

Create better chances and your players will convert more often.


[quote]Is it my tactics? To an extent.[/quote]

Most probably yes - See wwfan's post #117.


[quote]Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them. [/quote]

Probably not as in general users find it easier to identify good players than good tactics.


[quote]Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.[/quote]

No, as if it was every user would be experiencing the same problem.


[quote]What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.[/quote]

They created better chances and scored a long shot, nothing really wrong with that.


[quote]Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?[/QUOTE]

Luck plays a role but in general you can do more to help yourself.

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[quote name='Ackter']Is it Spurs in the last few weeks of this season that have needed around 25 shots per goal?[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17503279]15:3[/url]
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17465293]29:3[/url]
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17412539]19:0[/url]
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17412539]24:1[/url]
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17243496]22:0[/url]
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17201215]15:3[/url] (vs. Stevenage)
[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17175777]18:1[/url]

It's actually closer to 1 in 16 for Spurs (1 in 13 including the game against Stevenage).

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[quote name='ArsenalFan7']Creating 27 chances in a game is not normal and when we create these chances we aren't rewarded.

Why is that my players are so poor at taking these chances?
Is it my tactics? To an extent.
Is it their attributes? I doubt it as they've got great finishing stats most of them.
Is it the match engine? There's definitely something wrong with finishing in the ME.

What do you have to say about the AI taking their only 2 chances on target? One being a nice screamer outside the box.

Is it luck? Or am I just cursed? Or could it be a poor ME?[/QUOTE]

Do you think the game hates you for some reason? Because it definitely doesn't happen to me.

Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.

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I seem to have adjusted the tactics to allow my players to take chances more successfully however there's still a problem with the AI scoring with just 1-3 shots on target at times, not sure what do about that.

[IMG]http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh124/speakiegooner/VillarrealCFSADFixtures_Fixtures-2.png[/IMG]

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I lost any chance to catch a Champions league positions last season just because of this issue.I dominate most of games i have all stats in my favor but when it comes to goals Ai somehow manage to pull it back even from 2 goals difference with 2 shots on goals last 15 minutes.Its just silly SI must fix this crap already.
Im tired of missing easy sitters and blasting everywhere except net,this game have too many woodworks and silly missed chances if u ask me.Sometimes i feel that its russian roulette and not a simulation of real football.Not to mention stats like finishing composure where too offen this stats are not taken in consideration and ME just completely ignore them.

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I just love how people still refuse to see something that is so clear in this game. If you have any doubts about the bias just go train Real Madrid, put CR in striker position and as target men. here's what happens almost every game: 30 shots, around half are on target and are either shots that Ronaldo shoots straight at the keeper with no other opposition or just a super awesome defense from the keeper. and dont even get me on the amount of thos ronaldo sends off target when he has a good angle and has no opposition. same on the long shots where a random DM AI player with 13 on long shots and 10 on finishing can score from 1/4 of the field against casillas while my players xavi alonso, kaka, douglas costa and willian often miss them with no opposition.

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Seriously this game give me the creeps i recall only few games last season that if it were normal i even could beat for title with my team.
For example in 1 game against Chealsea i dominate the posession having ~same other stats but somehow they manage to beat me and this after a throw in where my team forgot to defend.Other games i lost just because of stupid corners or because my strikers forgot how to score while ai having diabolic rates of conversion.Its just silly.

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[quote name='deathspawn666']I just love how people still refuse to see something that is so clear in this game. If you have any doubts about the bias just go train Real Madrid, put CR in striker position and as target men. here's what happens almost every game: 30 shots, around half are on target and are either shots that Ronaldo shoots straight at the keeper with no other opposition or just a super awesome defense from the keeper. and dont even get me on the amount of thos ronaldo sends off target when he has a good angle and has no opposition. same on the long shots where a random DM AI player with 13 on long shots and 10 on finishing can score from 1/4 of the field against casillas while my players xavi alonso, kaka, douglas costa and willian often miss them with no opposition.[/QUOTE]

C.Ronaldo has the shoots from distance ppm plus the biggest, most selfish ego on the planet. If not used correctly I am quite sure he can do stuff like that. If used correctly he can score a hat-trick per match, though.

On the other hand, defending IS poor in the game so there are of course more chances and more goals than in rl.

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Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.

[QUOTE]Or you could accept that it just IS your tactics and adapt. While I absolutely don't agree that there's 'nothing' wrong with shooting and finishing (the angles players choose to shoot from are too often suspect, they are way too willing to take a shot on their weaker foot or try one form an impossible angle etc) it goes both ways and it's actually easier to exploit it than suffer from it if you accept the reasons and react accordingly.[/QUOTE]

Perfectly put!

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[quote name='BiggusD']C.Ronaldo has the shoots from distance ppm plus the biggest, most selfish ego on the planet. If not used correctly I am quite sure he can do stuff like that. If used correctly he can score a hat-trick per match, though.

On the other hand, defending IS poor in the game so there are of course more chances and more goals than in rl.[/QUOTE]

i know very well how to use him, on my 1st season he scored 80 goals, my complain about his situation is even though he scored that much he could have scored many more if it wasn't for the fact he misses lots of goals in 1vs1 INSIDE the area and with a good angle but most of them are straight at the keeper or shots to the fans.
agree with you on the defending, it was a clear problem in FM11 and still is on FM12, so they nerfed strikers however the nerf is so severe that if it applies the same for AI then most of them will hardly score, therefore creating the bias

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[quote name='deathspawn666']i know very well how to use him, on my 1st season he scored 80 goals, my complain about his situation is even though he scored that much he could have scored many more if it wasn't for the fact he misses lots of goals in 1vs1 INSIDE the area and with a good angle but most of them are straight at the keeper or shots to the fans.
agree with you on the defending, it was a clear problem in FM11 and still is on FM12, so they nerfed strikers however the nerf is so severe that if it applies the same for AI then most of them will hardly score, therefore creating the bias[/QUOTE]

They didnt nerf the strikers. There is no bias like that so dont spread misinformation.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']They didnt nerf the strikers. There is no bias like that so dont spread misinformation.[/QUOTE]
did you play fm11?? on the 11.0 release defending was very bad (tons of threads about it), on 11.1 they changed GKs and most of them turned super keepers (there was lots of thread also complaining about it) so we wouldn't score more, on fm11.2 they tweaked GKs to normal and nerfed strikers because suddenly world class strikers would made lots of stupid shots like we have now in fm12. you can bury your head in the sand all you want but this is what happened last year with tons of threads about it and in fm12 we have a very similar ME, even SI said they didn't changed it a lot

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[quote name='wwfan']Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.



Perfectly put![/QUOTE]
oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?

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[quote name='wwfan']Can nobody see the clear difference between the shot spread in posts 107, 109 & 121 and the one I posted in 119? Quite simply, in the first three posts a large number of the shots from open play are speculative, whereas in 119 most are from relatively good positions. If you aren't able to create a quality shot spread, you are going to have a lot of games in which you struggle to score.



Perfectly put![/QUOTE]
oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?

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Is there really any point in this thread any more? Some people clearly dont want the help thats being offered, the post above sums up this forum perfectly.

With all the mis-information that gets spread in the GD forum its no wonder some people dont know what to make of the game.

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Bro, I'd say after the tactical adjustments your offense is working quite nicely. Now you just have to figure out why the team still concedes the occasional goal. Its probably because the opposition is countering you, playing a very direct style for a few minutes of the game, overloading your flanks, or getting set piece goals due to aerial dominance (or poor instructions, marking). Hell, if you score 3 and concede 1 I wouldn't worry about it too much!

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[quote name='deathspawn666']oh nice to see you here wwfan, as for your quote you know very well that tactics is the least that matters atm in FM12, morale and teamtalks have much bigger impact on player performace and that was already proven in another thread that you and another mod locked when people were proving that the same problem is being discussed here. are you gonna close this thread now too?[/QUOTE]

It wasnt proven at all then. much like it hasnt been proven at all now. The game after the OP made changes, his scoring and finishing improved. You've already decidied you're right and are bashing anyone else who disagrees with you.

The game has many areas than be improved, doesn't change the fact that a lot of the time its down to the user needing to adapt their approach.

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