bullybeef

Open goal experiment

88 posts in this topic

I have a query and would like to perform an experiment if you could help me. If we have ever come across open goal misses on FM, it is obviously infuriating. If a human misses them IRL, they're human, but when a computer controlled avatar misses them, it just doesn't seem right. Obviously IRL you can see whether the player was off balance, whether the ball bobbled, or whether he lost his footing. Obviously we aren't privy to this kinda evidence of FM.

So I would like to ask if ppl could post screenshots of missed by open goal chances by both human and AI players. I would like to get an idea of how often this occurs. I know it happens more often than it should, but I am more interested to see how often the AI misses these kinda chances. It would also be interesting to view the player attributes for these misses too.

Thanks in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

0 in 22 seasons as far as i can remember, if it is any more than that it will be by 1. It happens, its football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0 in 22 seasons as far as i can remember, if it is any more than that it will be by 1. It happens, its football.

how much are you paid by SI? :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen them for both AI and human teams on various versions of FM. I actually seen one earlier this week on a game I'm currently playing on FM10. I havent actually seen one on FM12 yet though, but to be fair I havent played it a lot yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

anyway papiss cisse missed easy 1 on 1 in 2 consecutive games for newcastle in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
anyway papiss cisse missed easy 1 on 1 in 2 consecutive games for newcastle in real life.

The OP says nothing about 1 on 1's, he is talking about open goals, read the OP first before jumping in to attack me :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just posted this elsewhere, if you've seen it, don't give the answer away.

As you can see Bellamy has the ball with the goal gaping....what happens next and/or where does the ball go?

0673B5E26207798D698F0BE293959FCFEC21027C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've just posted this elsewhere, if you've seen it, don't give the answer away.

As you can see Bellamy has the ball with the goal gaping....what happens next and/or where does the ball go?

0673B5E26207798D698F0BE293959FCFEC21027C

Can you upload the clip to youtube please so I can view it? Cheers :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Google "worst open goal misses" and you'll get 74,400,000 hits, just saying:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted it in the PKM file, Cleon, under my username. You can look if you promise not to laugh!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The open goal situation I refered to earlier was litereally an open goal made froma speedy counter attack whereby my striker had already rounded the keeper around 15 yards out and still missed! I also remember seeing the computer do it as Liverpool for against me, one of their players missed a certain goal from about 10-15 yards out in FM 2009, I was really counting my blessings then! It really does happen in the game as it does in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Google "worst open goal misses" and you'll get 74,400,000 hits, just saying:D
If a human misses them IRL, they're human, but when a computer controlled avatar misses them, it just doesn't seem right. Obviously IRL you can see whether the player was off balance, whether the ball bobbled, or whether he lost his footing. Obviously we aren't privy to this kinda evidence of FM.

Just in case you missed what I said. I does occur IRL, but it just looks either silly, dishonest, or both, on a PC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I posted it in the PKM file, Cleon, under my username. You can look if you promise not to laugh!

You got a link I can't find it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You got a link I can't find it.

It is in the FTP. Not sure if we have access.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The OP says nothing about 1 on 1's, he is talking about open goals, read the OP first before jumping in to attack me :)

alright. fine. dont really have a problem with open goals. more regarding 1 on 1s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is in the FTP. Not sure if we have access.

Ahh ok.

Can you upload the clip to youtube then or the PKM elsehwere so I can look at it please? I think I know why Bellamy missed that one but I can't be sure without seeing the actual PKM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kHuSmIMMQ

Enough said?

No? Well you can say it "looks silly" when the computer misses if you want but first of all the match engine is woefully simple. Secondly, the "little computer avatar men" are attempting to emulate real life play. So why shouldnt they miss similar opportunities?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56kHuSmIMMQ

Enough said?

No? Well you can say it "looks silly" when the computer misses if you want but first of all the match engine is woefully simple. Secondly, the "little computer avatar men" are attempted to emulate real life play. So why shouldnt they miss similar opportunities?

I was at that Sheff Utd game :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just in case you missed what I said. I does occur IRL, but it just looks either silly, dishonest, or both, on a PC.

So are you saying the players in FM should never miss easy chances? So at what point would you limit the ME in terms of mistakes from players? Would you take them all out? Or only the ones that have annoyed you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So are you saying the players in FM should never miss easy chances? So at what point would you limit the ME in terms of mistakes from players? Would you take them all out? Or only the ones that have annoyed you?

I think the point is granting the human player some level of achievement here. If a chance as clear as an open goal, with a player in question whom is capable based upon his attributes to score the opportunity, then whom will it hurt if he scores? Creating chances is the hard part, especially chances like that, and if you've played football at a decent level, scoring is the easy part. Why is it such a problem if he score especially if you've made the effort to create such a clear chance? Where's the reward?

Plus, if it is a matter of odds based upon differing variables, then Bellamy wouldn't hit the woodwork from there in 9/10 chances, he'd either miss completely or score. There's a big difference between missing completely and hitting a 5 inch diameter metal bar from 8 yards. So in this sense there is more chance he would score than hit the bar.

Anyways, we're missing the point of the thread, I only asked if people could post examples of these kinda misses, by both the human and AI player, to see if there is a balance, and how often it occurs. Plus if there is anyone who knows their odds, what would be the chances of these kinda misses occurring? For example Bellamy missing an open goal and hitting the bar from that kinda position? Yeah it occurs IRL, but I am sure more goals have been scored by the attacking team in open goal situations too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the point is granting the human player some level of achievement here. If a chance as clear as an open goal, with a player in question whom is capable based upon his attributes to score the opportunity, then whom will it hurt if he scores? Creating chances is the hard part, especially chances like that, and if you've played football at a decent level, scoring is the easy part. Why is it such a problem if he score especially if you've made the effort to create such a clear chance? Where's the reward?

Plus, if it is a matter of odds based upon differing variables, then Bellamy wouldn't hit the woodwork from there in 9/10 chances, he'd either miss completely or score. There's a big difference between missing completely and hitting a 5 inch diameter metal bar from 8 yards. So in this sense there is more chance he would score than hit the bar.

Anyways, we're missing the point of the thread, I only asked if people could post examples of these kinda misses, by both the human and AI player, to see if there is a balance, and how often it occurs. Plus if there is anyone who knows their odds, what would be the chances of these kinda misses occurring? For example Bellamy missing an open goal and hitting the bar from that kinda position? Yeah it occurs IRL, but I am sure more goals have been scored by the attacking team in open goal situations too.

Scoring is the easy part? Are you sure on that?

Anyway, you seem to be suggesting that players in FM should never miss these chances, but of course they should otherwise its not replicating a game of football at all. Chances are 9 times out of 10 Bellamy (in game) puts that in the back of the net, but since you cannot replicate the situation another 9 times its impossible to tell, but i think by the lack of responces so far providing any evidence its safe to say that players in FM dont miss that many open goals. There are plenty of posters online now who would love to back you up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't an argument, as much as you'd like it to be, it's just out of interest. I'm sure SI would like to know how often empty goal chances are missed. Why wouldn't they? If it occurs more often against the human player, I think that is worth noting. I am not saying it does, which is why I am asking.

Also, open goal misses IRL live long in the conciousness because of the nature of the miss, but open goals that are scored, are just an easy chances, and are rarely recalled. If someone is trying telling me people miss open goal chances more often than they score, then you're having a laugh.

And as I just said elsewhere, are we saying when FM players miss, they're meant to miss, in order simulate RL events? Mmmm controversial. Are we suggesting the ME cheats?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the point is granting the human player some level of achievement here. If a chance as clear as an open goal, with a player in question whom is capable based upon his attributes to score the opportunity, then whom will it hurt if he scores? Creating chances is the hard part, especially chances like that, and if you've played football at a decent level, scoring is the easy part. Why is it such a problem if he score especially if you've made the effort to create such a clear chance? Where's the reward?

Plus, if it is a matter of odds based upon differing variables, then Bellamy wouldn't hit the woodwork from there in 9/10 chances, he'd either miss completely or score. There's a big difference between missing completely and hitting a 5 inch diameter metal bar from 8 yards. So in this sense there is more chance he would score than hit the bar.

There's no logic in the above, I'm afraid.

Are you seriously suggesting that because you've created a goodish chance, it is only fair that it should always be converted if the player has a good shooting attribute, meaning no player above a certain level will ever miss?

Or that hitting the bar should never happen as it is difficult to hit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This isn't an argument, as much as you'd like it to be, it's just out of interest. I'm sure SI would like to know how often empty goal chances are missed. Why wouldn't they? If it occurs more often against the human player, I think that is worth noting. I am not saying it does, which is why I am asking.

Also, open goal misses IRL live long in the conciousness because of the nature of the miss, but open goals that are scored, are just an easy chances, and are rarely recalled. If someone is trying telling me people miss open goal chances more often than they score, then you're having a laugh.

And as I just said elsewhere, are we saying when FM players miss, they're meant to miss, in order simulate RL events? Mmmm controversial. Are we suggesting the ME cheats?!

Players miss in FM for many reasons. None of those are a "cheating ME".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be a fear in saying that the ME is premeditated. If it makes calculations based upon variables which are made at super fast speed before the fact, that's premeditated. If a calculated process has occurred before the action, that's premeditated. I don't understand why it such a touchy subject?

Whether I know the ME is premeditated is a fact or not, I'll still enjoy playing the game, because I have always suspected it, how else would a simulated football match model come to any in game conclusions if it didn't calculate them before the fact. Or has SI built a computer model that can break the laws of linear time, and make decisions in the present??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ME plays out the game before you see it. It has to for the highlights viewer to work. It cannot display match highlights if it doesn't know where they are.

However, that doesn't mean you can't change things. Every time you make a tactical change, the match is recalculated. That means the full game still operates in real time for the user, bar the minor delay when making tactical changes during a highlight, which cannot activate until it has finished.

You are confusing a mechanical necessity for pre-determination.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have me wrong, wwfan, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact the ME calculates and pre-determines events, how else would it do it?

All I am trying to highlight is IRL, a player, or in this case, a striker, doesn't pre-determine whether he may miss or whether he may score, he will think he will score. He isn't controlled by variables until he's in the present. Unlike a computer that can pre-determine what options the present may bring using super fast processes, including changes that the AI or user may change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you have me wrong, wwfan, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact the ME calculates and pre-determines events, how else would it do it?

All I am trying to highlight is IRL, a player, or in this case, a striker, doesn't pre-determine whether he may miss or whether he may score, he will think he will score. He isn't controlled by variables until he's in the present. Unlike a computer that can pre-determine what options the present may bring using super fast processes, including changes that the AI or user may change.

It happens in real time in the ME, via multiple calculations per second. There's nothing predetermined about why he does or doesn't score. He might be super confident, resulting in his trying to do too much with a difficult to control ball. He might snatch an easier chance because he's nervous. He might strike it perfectly, but an inch too high. He might put it in the back of the net.

There are so many reasons as to why he does or doesn't score, just as there might be in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Open goal misses happen extremely rarely in my games.

Wouldn't have thought is was a big enough issue for these pages.

My favourite real life open goal miss was one many years ago by Derby striker Roger Davies (against Chelsea I think, anyway Derby were playing in a strange colour away strip) where he rounded the goalkeeper beautifully & put it wide from a yard out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the ME player isn't real, it's a computer controlled avatar - for both sides. Making up excuses that why he misses, like we do IRL, really cannot come into it, because it's a simulation. It isn't RL, as much as we wish it to be, and the irony is, when we see a computer controlled avatar miss, it looks odd, because we know it was was controlled by an electronic process, not God or luck.

You develop the game, surely you know this.

As my wife persistently says to me: "It isn't real!" - but knowing and understanding this doesn't stop me from playing, because FM is the very best of a very bad bunch of footy sim games in today's market.

I think I would have more relieved if people had just laughed at the miss rather than try to explain it, because it was a shocker. I was hoping to see some others just for the humour value, not to discredit the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well not really, your OP was looking to back up your claim of a problem (based on the previous thread to this one), to which no one has backed you up, so now you have decided its a joke thread. It was never started as a joke thread, even if you now claim it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never did get to see the actual PKM or highlight :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well not really, your OP was looking to back up your claim of a problem (based on the previous thread to this one), to which no one has backed you up, so now you have decided its a joke thread. It was never started as a joke thread, even if you now claim it.

Erm, no, remember you want an argument, I just wanted to know whether it was common. And if it isn't common, it must be just me then, I guess. No biggy. Remember, it's not real, it's a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Never did get to see the actual PKM or highlight :(

I asked earlier up how you view recorded highlights, so I can upload it, Cleon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I asked earlier up how you view recorded highlights, so I can upload it, Cleon.

I'll drop you a PM and you can email me and I'll sort it you out later if you want. Will give me a chance to watch it and give you feedback anyway :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the Bellamy Chance

This is the download link for Bullybeef’s PKM http://www.gamefront.com/files/21470315/BULLYBEEF+-+Liverpool+v+Tottenham.pkm

I’ve had a look at the PMK and the Bellamy chance. The chance isn’t as clear as you think it is, let me try and show you why.

1.png

Notice Bellamy’s position when the move starts (He’s the player circled). He has a lot of work to do and ground to make up before he even gets on the end of the move.

Now let’s skip onto the bit where the OP is a little confused and can’t understand why the chance was missed as it was an open goal.

2.png

This is the exact moment Gerrad puts the cross in. Look at Bellamy (circled player again) and where he is stood. Now for the area where Gerrard is about to cross the ball Bellamy is not only to advanced but he’s got to get back into an area to get on the end of the ball. Now this is where the problem stems from of why it’s missed.

3.png

Now if you look at that screenshot you can see what the issue is when the ball is crossed. The ball is behind Bellamy and he’s facing the wrong way. The ball is travelling fast and high. Now Bellamy must shift his body and try and get in to a position so he can get on the end of the chance.

4.png

The above screen shows you Bellamy who’s just about to strike the ball as it’s crossed into him. This is the exact moment before impact. His body is still turning and his foot is trailing behind him which he is going to use to strike it. Now remember the ball is travelling across goal at speed and quite high. Bellamy decides to hit it first time while it’s still positioned high. He doesn’t allow the ball to drop he just hits it.

As you can see on the screenshot his left leg is still behind the ball and not in front of it. If he was facing the ball direct they’d be no question about how easy the shot should be. But he’s always behind the ball and not at the best angle to begin with.

The ball is at the wrong angle the whole time and it was never in his favour. He’s actually lucky that he managed to get it on goal in the first place because the way it’s positioned as he’s striking it, it could have gone anywhere.

Reversed Touchline is the best angle to view the clip on. If you watch this angle of the whole clip you’ll see that it was not an easy chance. It was difficult and would have been a quality goal if it had gone in.

Now I’m not sure what his attributes are like on your game but on mine he isn’t all that clever. I mean he has 13 agility and balance both which are needed for the swivel he had to do and turn his body quick. And he did have a lot of work to do with getting his body back inline. He also has 13 for concentration and anticipation both again needed to stay focused for the cross. Normally these attributes would be good enough if the chance was easy. And as he was attempting a volley he needs excellent first touch and technique. And his technique is low it’s only 12 on my game. His first touch of 14 is enough though.

I don’t class it as an easy chance missed viewing it back several times. It was a difficult chance and he was always on the back foot really and positioned all wrong. He did well to get it on target imo

It’s probably not what you wanted to hear but thought I’d give you my views anyways

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This happened to me recently:

I normally see my team miss an open goal at least once a season, not too unrealistic. The guy who said it hasn't happened once in 22 years is either forgetful or unbelievably lucky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This happened to me recently:

I normally see my team miss an open goal at least once a season, not too unrealistic. The guy who said it hasn't happened once in 22 years is either forgetful or unbelievably lucky.

haha :D ffs :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[video=youtube;cblSAyXcwU8]

Worst one I have ever seen from a goal a game striker as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Cleon, great commentary! LFC could do with you at IRL now if you can defend that! Even the in match commentary thought he was going to score (I missed that bit).

So you're telling me, if that was a RL event, it wouldn't have gone on the empty goal bloopers compilation? You went to all that effort, for what? I don't get it. Obviously, if you deeply believe that elements of the game really do simulate RL events, which you quite scarily do (I think you should see go and someone about that), I concede it would have been a great goal if it was a couple if inches lower. I just watched it again from behind the goal and it was a great effort, though. Shame.

Anways I won the game.....but I can't shake this feeling that this whole process of your time was simply for the purposes to belittle? But why would you do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now those are bad!! I feel much better now, thanks guys!

[video=youtube;Yu6daFrz-x4]

Same player, same match, more than made up for that terrible miss lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks Cleon, great commentary! LFC could do with you at IRL now if you can defend that! Even the in match commentary thought he was going to score (I missed that bit).

So you're telling me, if that was a RL event, it wouldn't have gone on the empty goal bloopers compilation? You went to all that effort, for what? I don't get it. Obviously, if you deeply believe that elements of the game really do simulate RL events, which you quite scarily do (I think you should see go and someone about that), I concede it would have been a great goal if it was a couple if inches lower. I just watched it again from behind the goal and it was a great effort, though. Shame.

But the fact is you mock me now I've explained in detail how yours wasn't a bad miss and you've got no comeback so now you resort to mocking. Well played. At least mock after you've gone into details as to why I'm wrong and not just say I am. Put effort into posts to disprove soemthing that happens

Anways I won the game.....but I can't shake this feeling that this whole process of your time was simply for the purposes to belittle? But why would you do that?

How was I belittling you? I just gave you feedback that's all. The other misses in the thread I can't explain as they are really bad misses. However yours is not a sitter nor is it an easy chance. I was just giving you feedback based on other posts you'd done in another thread and this same chance.

Who mentioned three yards? I said 6 without even viewing the clip, so I wasn't far off. That's a difficult chance?? It's harder to actually hit the woodwork, which he did. If open goal misses come down to a matter of opinion, then we've got no chance. An open goal is what it is; if a human misses them, they're human, when a computer control avatar misses them, it's so dodgy.

You thought it was an easy chance based on that quote which you did earlier today.

Yours wasn't a bad miss, I was just making sure you and whoever else use this thread can distinguish between a bad miss which can't be explained and the scenario like you posted which is explainable.

That's not me defending the game. That's me knowing what is a real issue and what is one created by someones lack of understanding regarding the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's not me defending the game.

Who said that? I didn't say you were defending the game, but seeing as though you are clearly a good defender, what's your price, I need a decent CB! ;)

How was I belittling you? I just gave you feedback that's all.

Just ignore me, Cleon, you see when you're disabled, it's easy to feel a little paranoid and the feeling of belittlement (although usually, I get this feeling when people actually see me....how strange), especially when it maybe said someone may come across as righteous, and especially when you went to so much trouble, even though it was a little off topic mind. I did presume when you pmed me, you were privately going to advise me further regarding this incident....I wasn't aware I was in for a public flogging! :D

And I hope you aren't going to run the gamut on every missed empty net. I am sure every man (and his dog) has an opinion on these misses, but I didn't really require one. He missed, I won, it didn't really make any difference. And it really wasn't the point of the thread. As I posted twice, I just wanted to see how often these kinda things occur, not really why they occur. There's not much we can do about it, apart from accept it, and maybe we could find some humour in them.

I hope you don't feel you have wasted your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If a human misses them IRL, they're human, but when a computer controlled avatar misses them, it just doesn't seem right.

So what you're saying, is that, as a computer controlled avatar, the "player" should never miss?

Perhaps the goalkeeper should have predicted the cross and been in position to save, using his AI logic.

In fact, in the screenshot above, Gerrard should have just shot the ball. He's using AI, so he could just target the 2.067 square metres of goal that's greater then or equal to the maximum reach of the goalkeeper, knowing that the keeper is 1.86 metres tall and can launch himself with 1952.903 Newtons of force at an angle of 62.5 degrees above horizontal.

Of course, a human can't do this, but these aren't humans! Sort it out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So what you're saying, is that, as a computer controlled avatar, the "player" should never miss?

Perhaps the goalkeeper should have predicted the cross and been in position to save, using his AI logic.

In fact, in the screenshot above, Gerrard should have just shot the ball. He's using AI, so he could just target the 2.067 square metres of goal that's greater then or equal to the maximum reach of the goalkeeper, knowing that the keeper is 1.86 metres tall and can launch himself with 1952.903 Newtons of force at an angle of 62.5 degrees above horizontal.

Of course, a human can't do this, but these aren't humans! Sort it out!

He should also know the trajectory to hit the ball to bounce it off the post and to spin back into the net.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.