Koki

12.2 regens from inactive nations - how is the situation now?

148 posts in this topic

Turkey's youth rating is 144, whereas most 2nd tier European countries like Croatia, Belgium, etc. have it at 80-100. I just closed that gap a little bit, by decreasing Turkey's rating to 134, and increasing the others by 5, sometimes 10. I hope this will produce a more realistic distribution of newgen quality.

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@ bleventozturk - I agree with your reasons for lowering some of the nations, just like I did myself.

I feel like it would be a waste of my time if I go with the default youth ratings as it has literally took me around 7-10 hours carefully tweaking them based on the past & present. I feel that would have would have been a waste if I don't go with it. What do you think?

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I still have a ridiculous amount of talented players. However I'll be waiting 3-4 years until most hit their peak and I can compare them to real players with similar PA's.

Saying this though, despite Robin's PA I can't ever see him being anywhere near as impressive as a C.Ronaldo or Messi despite his PA suggesting he should be similar in ability to those. But then I suppose that expands much further to how their attributes are layed out, how they develop, attribute weighting, bla, bla.

j-2.png

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@ bleventozturk - I agree with your reasons for lowering some of the nations, just like I did myself.

I feel like it would be a waste of my time if I go with the default youth ratings as it has literally took me around 7-10 hours carefully tweaking them based on the past & present. I feel that would have would have been a waste if I don't go with it. What do you think?

Like I said, if you haven't done a drastic change on a few nations, it shouldn't have too much effect anyway. Only little tweaks to make it a little more realistic, that's all. Your game won't change a whole lot (to a degree that you won't like it) by increasing some nations by 5-10 points and decreasing Brazil, Turkey, Mexico, etc. by 10-15 points.

So, I'd say use your edited DB, unless you changed those numbers by 30-40 points :)

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My two cents:

* Variety is good, on paper. Unfortunately every 80CA/180PA newgen from DR Congo, Egypt and Burkina Faso will get scouted AND signed by important clubs because all the game cares about is PA. The fact these potential worldbeaters will fail to fulfill their potential due to poor mental attributes [lack of ambition, professionalism etc] is barely relevant, because their PA will still earn them a contract in Top Leagues, one way or another.

* Some youth ratings are insanely high, period. There's no tradition or no valid reason to set them so high.

* Population and vague future analysis are worth diddly-squat IMO... We've been hearing about African football's future domination since Cameroon's run in WC90 and we're still waiting for an African national team to break into the Top Four... Hell, even South Korea stole a 4th place in 2002 but nobody in their right mind would be anticipating the Asians to take over the football world ;)

So let's leave macroeconomics to other people and let's just stick with football...

As said by others, Netherlands and Denmark have achieved a lot with a small population because of organization... Based on population and popularity, USSR should have won every European competition until they collapsed, but it didn't work like that.

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Seems to be a good mix of nations tho!

Hmm... Yeah it does!

ArsenalFan7 - Was this with the default youth ratings?

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My two cents:

* Variety is good, on paper. Unfortunately every 80CA/180PA newgen from DR Congo, Egypt and Burkina Faso will get scouted AND signed by important clubs because all the game cares about is PA. The fact these potential worldbeaters will fail to fulfill their potential due to poor mental attributes [lack of ambition, professionalism etc] is barely relevant, because their PA will still earn them a contract in Top Leagues, one way or another.

On the contrary, its very relevant as one of the issues was these players going on to be world class and as such countries like CR Congo or in my game Zambia push up into the worlds top 5 nations.

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Like I said, if you haven't done a drastic change on a few nations, it shouldn't have too much effect anyway. Only little tweaks to make it a little more realistic, that's all. Your game won't change a whole lot (to a degree that you won't like it) by increasing some nations by 5-10 points and decreasing Brazil, Turkey, Mexico, etc. by 10-15 points.

So, I'd say use your edited DB, unless you changed those numbers by 30-40 points :)

Yeah see I have drastically edited some nations like Turkey etc. who are now 108, USA are 110. Congo are 63 or something like that. Uruguay way up from 90 to 115. Maybe I should just go back and edit from the default database again by just 5-10 points per nation like you said.

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Hmm... Yeah it does!

ArsenalFan7 - Was this with the default youth ratings?

Yes, no database edits.

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Yeah see I have drastically edited some nations like Turkey etc. who are now 108, USA are 110. Congo are 63 or something like that. Uruguay way up from 90 to 115. Maybe I should just go back and edit from the default database again by just 5-10 points per nation like you said.

If you haven't progressed with a new save yet, my recommendation would be to make small changes to the default youth ratings, since we can see in some other peoples' posts here that the talented youth distribution is not out of whack with the default DB.

Youth rating is not the only factor for all we know, and if I have to use the Turkey example again, with the default DB I know there are too many (to my liking) 150+ PA Turkish players created, and I feel like by decreasing Turkey's rating by 10 points below the likes of England the game will produce more reasonable level talent from Turkey. But I don't want to change it so much that Turkey will go down to the same level with Albania all of a sudden. Like I said, there are other factors and maybe a youth rating of 108 for Turkey (like you did) is equivalent to a youth rating of 75 for Croatia for example, considering population and other factors and all. We just don't know for sure to be honest, right?

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I think in every new save, statistically the number of high PA newgens from every country will at some point converge to a value that is set by the initial DB. We know that the players are created randomly, and if we all play the game for 5 seasons, some of us may end up with too many talented newgens from Brazil, some others may end up with too many wonderkids from England, Egypt, Turkey, Mexico etc. So, if you are playing the game for 5-10 seasons, I would say just enjoy whatever randomness the game creates for you.

But if we all collect the data, those numbers will converge and the country with the highest youth rating (plus other related factors in the DB) will always end up having the greatest number of these high PA players. In our case it is Brazil, which is fine. It's just that I'd like to close that gap between Brazil and other top powers a little bit, by looking at the limited data I have in my hand from my soak tests. In every soak test I did Brazil produced insane amount of wonderkids. If I compare this to real life: In real life every year we hear about new wonderkids from Brazil, and so many of them get transferred to European clubs, and get coached by best coaches in best facilites, but many of them don't become new Messi's. In the game however, a 190 PA kid from Brazil coming to Milan always ends up reaching that potential. There is really not much going on in the game to prevent this from happening on a regual basis, and soon all the top teams have many 180+ CA players, majority of them from Brazil.

So, I feel like, by decreasing the youth rating for Brazil from 185 to 175, the game will still produce the best talent from Brazil over long term, but at a considerably more reasonable level imo.

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Good posts there and yeah I agree with you. I haven't yet started my game no so I'll follow your advice and just make changes up to 10 points per nation maximum. The reason I was asking so many times was because I'm a long term save kinda person and I take a while to set up my staff and bring in new players etc. so I wouldn't like to restart if I didn't like how the game was panning out regarding newgen output.

Making small changes like this shouldn't negatively affect my game in any way compared to if I went with the sweeping changes I previously made. I will make an exception for the following 4 countries though as they are way out of whack imo. Algeria, China, DR Congo & Egypt. I might reduce these by 30-40 but then again as you said, we don't know for sure if the youth rating is the only thing that affects the quality of newgen output so maybe a 30-40 reduction for these 4 countries would be a little excessive and 20 at most would be better in this case. The Netherlands I will increase to a level similar to England as I feel 122 is too low for them.

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On the contrary, its very relevant as one of the issues was these players going on to be world class and as such countries like CR Congo or in my game Zambia push up into the worlds top 5 nations.

I meant it's barely relevant when people use the "but they don't fulfill their potential anyway" to belittle the issue...

Of course Congolese or Zambian "hidden gems" NOT fulfilling their potential is indeed a bit of a saving grace because it prevents most of them from becoming the new Rooneys or Zlatans, driving their NT forward as a consequence.

What I tried to explain was those players still end up "disrupting" the gameworld landscape even though they rarely reach their PA... Even as a 140CA/190PA a couple of Egyptian players would still be able to attract a lot of interest and to make their way to clubs their real-life counterparts would never dream of.

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You can always run a 10 seasons long soak test and see what you find, and decide if it is acceptable for you or not. If I would see 1 odd player from Congo with 170 PA I would be fine with it. If I see a few players from Congo with 170+ PA though I would find it very unrealistic, although not impossible of course.

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You can always run a 10 seasons long soak test and see what you find, and decide if it is acceptable for you or not. If I would see 1 odd player from Congo with 170 PA I would be fine with it. If I see a few players from Congo with 170+ PA though I would find it very unrealistic, although not impossible of course.

Was that directed at me or RBKalle?

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I still have a ridiculous amount of talented players. However I'll be waiting 3-4 years until most hit their peak and I can compare them to real players with similar PA's.

Saying this though, despite Robin's PA I can't ever see him being anywhere near as impressive as a C.Ronaldo or Messi despite his PA suggesting he should be similar in ability to those. But then I suppose that expands much further to how their attributes are layed out, how they develop, attribute weighting, bla, bla.

But most of them are pre-patch 12.2 generated, aren't they? I mean I played 6 seasons with the OP-newgens of the 12.1 patch and even though I drastically decreased the PA of players from inactive nations I still got around 15 home-grown players now in my squad with a PA of 180+ but all from France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Brazil, Mexico and Argentina which are all active nations in my save game.

My teams looks a bit like your complete list up top and in a few years time I think I can field an entire first eleven full of players with a PA of 190+ the team will be out of this world once these guys are all playing at their full PA.

But as I said the last push of quality players seams to have largely gone down. Only two players with a PA above 180 have been generated in one season after the 12.2 patch so the times of too many world class players seams to be gone.

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Okay, some data from my savegame (started with 12.2), scouted with Genie Scout:

Start 2011

Players: 74,000

CR 70: 825

CR 80: 10

PR 70: 1825

PR 80: 26

CA 160: 99

CA 180: 6

PA 160: 659

PA 180: 56

Savegame 2017 (exactly 6 years later)

Players: 98,000 (132%)

CR 70: 1982 (240%)

CR 80: 31 (310%)

PR 70: 2790 (153%)

PR 80: 38 (146%)

CA 160: 310 (313%)

CA 180: 22 (366%)

PA 160: 884 (134%)

PA 180: 89 (158%)

CR = Current Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

PR = Potential Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

CA = Current Ability

PA = Potential Ability

Some info about the savegame: I have lowered the youth ratings of every country by 10%, some countries (Egypt, USA etc.) have had their ratings lowered further. The only active country is Germany (Division 1-6).

You can see that the amount of players with a certain potential stays almost consistent (taking into account the growing amount of players in the database). But the problem is, that too many players seem to fulfill their PA/PR.

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Okay, some data from my savegame (started with 12.2), scouted with Genie Scout:

Start 2011

Players: 74,000

CR 70: 825

CR 80: 10

PR 70: 1825

PR 80: 26

CA 160: 99

CA 180: 6

PA 160: 659

PA 180: 56

Savegame 2017 (exactly 6 years later)

Players: 98,000 (132%)

CR 70: 1982 (240%)

CR 80: 31 (310%)

PR 70: 2790 (153%)

PR 80: 38 (146%)

CA 160: 310 (313%)

CA 180: 22 (366%)

PA 160: 884 (134%)

PA 180: 89 (158%)

CR = Current Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

PR = Potential Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

CA = Current Ability

PA = Potential Ability

Some info about the savegame: I have lowered the youth ratings of every country by 10%, some countries (Egypt, USA etc.) have had their ratings lowered further. The only active country is Germany (Division 1-6).

You can see that the amount of players with a certain potential stays almost consistent (taking into account the growing amount of players in the database). But the problem is, that too many players seem to fulfill their PA/PR.

Have you activated the option "is regen" under the region drop down menu? Otherwise you're counting in the rating development of the non regens as well.

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I deliberately counted the real players as well. They are still in the database, still signable and therefore contribute to the amount of available high CA/PA players. But of course, we can only get an accurate picture with a savegame where all real players have retired.

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Fwiw in my game, regens:

My game Nov. 2018 (111,377 regens (:confused:)),

PA's

0-70: 65,575

71-80: 10,874

81-90: 15,857

91-100: 12,686

101-110: 7,975

111-120: 8,012

121-130: 7,327

131-140: 5,100

141-150: 2,664

151-160: 1,395

161-170: 476

171-180: 336

181-190: 45

191-200: 10

I can't really be arsed to compare to that with reals as it varies too much, this is 7 or 8 seasons worth of regens, I think? So yeah, there's lots of talent.

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Okay, some data from my savegame (started with 12.2), scouted with Genie Scout:

Start 2011

Players: 74,000

CR 70: 825

CR 80: 10

PR 70: 1825

PR 80: 26

CA 160: 99

CA 180: 6

PA 160: 659

PA 180: 56

Savegame 2017 (exactly 6 years later)

Players: 98,000 (132%)

CR 70: 1982 (240%)

CR 80: 31 (310%)

PR 70: 2790 (153%)

PR 80: 38 (146%)

CA 160: 310 (313%)

CA 180: 22 (366%)

PA 160: 884 (134%)

PA 180: 89 (158%)

CR = Current Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

PR = Potential Rating (Standard Genie Scout Rating)

CA = Current Ability

PA = Potential Ability

Some info about the savegame: I have lowered the youth ratings of every country by 10%, some countries (Egypt, USA etc.) have had their ratings lowered further. The only active country is Germany (Division 1-6).

You can see that the amount of players with a certain potential stays almost consistent (taking into account the growing amount of players in the database). But the problem is, that too many players seem to fulfill their PA/PR.

Do you mind looking how many of those 22 players (CA > 180) are newgen and how many are from original DB?

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You can always run a 10 seasons long soak test and see what you find, and decide if it is acceptable for you or not. If I would see 1 odd player from Congo with 170 PA I would be fine with it. If I see a few players from Congo with 170+ PA though I would find it very unrealistic, although not impossible of course.

Yeah I really can't be bothered running a 10 season soak test though as I'm about to start my save tomorrow. I think I'll go with your suggestions and lower/increase some nations by 5-10 and at most 20 instead of the drastic changes I made before.

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Yeah I really can't be bothered running a 10 season soak test though as I'm about to start my save tomorrow. I think I'll go with your suggestions and lower/increase some nations by 5-10 and at most 20 instead of the drastic changes I made before.

Ok. Good luck mate :)

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Do you mind looking how many of those 22 players (CA > 180) are newgen and how many are from original DB?
Only 4 players of the 22 CA>=180 players are regens so far. They are all 22 years old. As I'm in 2017 now, it suggests that these players have been generated as 16 years-old and it simply takes some time to develop into world class. Let's see if next year there are new 22-years-old with a CA of 180. By the way, there are 26 regen players and 46 real players with a CA >=175.

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Fwiw in my game, regens:

My game Nov. 2018 (111,377 regens (:confused:)),

Have you added leagues while playing ? That´s likely where there are so many damn regens. Basically all the sub-70 PA regens are just spacewasters that the game creates when adding new leagues, was acknowledge by a developer and i really hope they are hard at word on the issue as it´s a big time problem (considering the feature was supposed to be one of the main selling points for the game)

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the best potential % can be out by a good 2-3% maybe more for newgens. but i have had nothing near there in terms of ability for 2 seasons.

i'll have a look in geniescout and relay my findings in terms of PA. but from what i have seen at a glance, the best players in england in terms of newgens have spawned from the championship.

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Only 4 players of the 22 CA>=180 players are regens so far. They are all 22 years old. As I'm in 2017 now, it suggests that these players have been generated as 16 years-old and it simply takes some time to develop into world class. Let's see if next year there are new 22-years-old with a CA of 180. By the way, there are 26 regen players and 46 real players with a CA >=175.

See, this tells me that the increase in number of high CA players can't be blamed on newgens only. Looking at this we could conclude that too many young players in the original DB have high PA and also high hidden attributes to help them reach their potential easily.

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Just about to start my game and I'm thinking of going with a totally default youth ratings database but not 100% sure. As you can tell I change my mind every 5 minutes lol :lol: It happens in all aspects of life with me and is really annoying! :mad:

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Ok, in the end I made only slight changes to a few nations as I mentioned before. I won't name all the nations I edited as there was quite a few but the most noticeable changes I made were...

Increase: Belgium, 85-95. Croatia, 98-103. Czech Rep, 94-99. Denmark, 91-95. Ghana, 96-101. Italy, 144-154. Netherlands, 122-145. Portugal, 114-125. Senegal, 74-84. Serbia, 94-102. Sweden, 88-93. Uruguay, 90-110.

Decrease: Algeria, 102-82. Brazil, 185-180. China, 117-97. Colombia, 117-107. DR Congo, 101-81. Egypt, 138-118. India, 86-66. Iran, 95-85. Japan, 114-104. Mexico, 153-135. Nigeria, 135-115. Russia, 148-138. South Africa, 95-90. Turkey, 144-124. USA, 132-122.

I feel with the above changes (there were a few more smaller increases/decreases not worth mentioning) will reflect real life better as you can see the nations that are strong in real life that were too low have now been increased and some of the weaker nations/nations with a rating which was just way too high have been decreased. The above shows 12 nations which have been increased and 15 which have been decreased. They kind of swap around really. As you can see, the ones I increased only got small 5-10 increases apart from Netherlands & Uruguay whereas the nations I decreased included quite a few -20's.

If anyone wants this file I can make it available for download, just let me know.

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Just about to start my game and I'm thinking of going with a totally default youth ratings database but not 100% sure. As you can tell I change my mind every 5 minutes lol :lol: It happens in all aspects of life with me and is really annoying! :mad:

Nooo, don't do that, you gotta at least decrease Congo, Egypt, Algeria, China, Turkey, Mexico, Brazil

:)

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Ok, in the end I made only slight changes to a few nations as I mentioned before. I won't name all the nations I edited as there was quite a few but the most noticeable changes I made were...

Increase: Belgium, 85-95. Croatia, 98-103. Czech Rep, 94-99. Denmark, 91-95. Ghana, 96-101. Italy, 144-154. Netherlands, 122-145. Portugal, 114-125. Senegal, 74-84. Serbia, 94-98. Sweden, 88-93. Uruguay, 90-100.

Decrease: Algeria, 102-82. Brazil, 185-180. China, 117-97. Colombia, 117-107. DR Congo, 101-81. Egypt, 138-118. India, 86-66. Iran, 95-85. Japan, 114-104. Mexico, 153-135. Nigeria, 135-115. Russia, 148-138. South Africa, 95-90. Turkey, 144-124. USA, 132-122.

I feel with the above changes (there were a few more smaller increases/decreases not worth mentioning) will reflect real life better as you can see the nations that are strong in real life that were too low have now been increased and some of the weaker nations/nations with a rating which was just way too high have been decreased. The above shows 12 nations which have been increased and 15 which have been decreased. They kind of swap around really. As you can see, the ones I increased only got small 5-10 increases apart from Netherlands whereas the nations decreased included quite a few -20's.

If anyone wants this file I can make it avaibal for download, just let me know.

Now this one looks very similar to mine :)

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Now this one looks very similar to mine :)

Nice :)

I'm thinking of decreasing Brazil, Colombia & Russia further from 180-175, 107-97, 138-133 respectively. What do you think?

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Nice :)

I'm thinking of decreasing Brazil, Colombia & Russia further from 180-175, 107-97, 138-133 respectively. What do you think?

I have Brazil at 175 already.

I think I have Russia at 138 and Colombia at 112.

Egypt 118, Mexico 135, Congo 81, just like you have them :)

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My goal is to play this save for about 10 seasons, stop there to observe the newgen talent distribution, and if it is good enough I will keep the save for good. If I see major problems, I will further tweak the youth ratings, stop playing for a week or two, and start one final save, before moving on to FM2013 :)

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I have Brazil at 175 already.

I think I have Russia at 138 and Colombia at 112.

Egypt 118, Mexico 135, Congo 81, just like you have them :)

Who would have thought it? lol. Great minds think alike :D

I'm gonna leave Brazil & Russia as they are now and not decrease them any further. I'll possibly decrease Colombia to 105/102.

My goal is to play this save for about 10 seasons, stop there to observe the newgen talent distribution, and if it is good enough I will keep the save for good. If I see major problems, I will further tweak the youth ratings, stop playing for a week or two, and start one final save, before moving on to FM2013 :)

Unfortunately I won't be able to start again once I start as I would never have the motivation to go back and play the same save over again :p I think these changes will be ok for me though as I like the game to produce lots of good regens but would prefer them to come from nations that are known to produce them and not Congo etc.

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cant SI just change the values or whatever to how they were in 11? amount of good regens coming out of various countries was alright in 11. i dont know why they change things that work in the first place.

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Turkey's youth rating is 144, whereas most 2nd tier European countries like Croatia, Belgium, etc. have it at 80-100. I just closed that gap a little bit, by decreasing Turkey's rating to 134, and increasing the others by 5, sometimes 10. I hope this will produce a more realistic distribution of newgen quality.

When I checked in 12.1, Turkey's youth rating was above England iirc and on level with Spain/Italy, which I think despite Turkey's large population + football culture is highly exaggerated.

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When I checked in 12.1, Turkey's youth rating was above England iirc and on level with Spain/Italy, which I think despite Turkey's large population + football culture is highly exaggerated.

Exactly. When you look at Egypt or example, yes they have a large population but 138 is a bit extreme. I lowered them to 118 and that is still being generous tbh.

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OK. I am about to start a new (first) game on the new DB and 12.2. Is the issue fixed or not? I read through the thread and could not find any meaningful post saying yes or no.

The issue used to be that when a large database loaded/players with high rep from each country loaded, the regens from inactive leagues were disproportionally good. It's been 3 months now, is this fixed or not? Please let me know as this will determine what DB to load...and I hate playing small DB, but might have to as I can't be bothered to go through editing ratings again.

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OK. I am about to start a new (first) game on the new DB and 12.2. Is the issue fixed or not? I read through the thread and could not find any meaningful post saying yes or no.

The issue used to be that when a large database loaded/players with high rep from each country loaded, the regens from inactive leagues were disproportionally good. It's been 3 months now, is this fixed or not? Please let me know as this will determine what DB to load...and I hate playing small DB, but might have to as I can't be bothered to go through editing ratings again.

My feeling is that while Algerie, Morocco and Egypt becomes too good, actual world-class players are very uncommon from there in 12.2.2. I always load Mexico and Turkey. I think that if you don't load extra players and instead include all the big/major leagues, you will be fine.

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My feeling is that while Algerie, Morocco and Egypt becomes too good, actual world-class players are very uncommon from there in 12.2.2. I always load Mexico and Turkey. I think that if you don't load extra players and instead include all the big/major leagues, you will be fine.

I am not too bothered about country-by-country ratings but rather whether the overall issue of inactive leagues is fixed. I know which specific countries to nerf myself, just need to know from someone that loads, say, England only and then adds national rep players worldwide or large db to tell me whether the game is full of stars. I am sure some people have done it in 3 months. Otherwise I will have to buy Genie and go through holidaying again to ifnd out which is pointless atm.

Koki has posted some figures but has not specified what DB he is using (small, large, loaded national players, etc) so it doesn't tell me much as the issue was not present when using small db in the first place...

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OK, so I holidayed a couple of seasons with my normal set-up (large DB, players with national reputation, 1 league loaded) - 2 seasons in I get 250 regens per season with PA 155+. Start of game you have 1060 155+ PA players, which is roughly 70 per season for a typical career. Well, yes, fixed of course....SI is having a laugh again - did you seriously not test whether you've fixed it before releasing the patch??? We reported the issue back in November I think. It is June now and the issue is still there. Well, done, SI, amazing work. One is for sure - I am not buying FM13 if you can't fix a freaking DB management issue in a SIM game for 7 months. Sorry, but this is not 40 quid worth of work for me.

what a joke...

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OK, so I holidayed a couple of seasons with my normal set-up (large DB, players with national reputation, 1 league loaded) - 2 seasons in I get 180 regens per season with PA 155+. Start of game you have 1060 155+ PA players, which is roughly 70 per season for a typical career. Well, yes, fixed of course....SI is having a laugh again - did you seriously not test whether you've fixed it before releasing the patch??? We reported the issue back in November I think. It is June now and the issue is still there. Well, done, SI, amazing work. One is for sure - I am not buying FM13 if you can't fix a freaking DB management issue in a SIM game for 7 months. Sorry, but this is not 40 quid worth of work for me.

what a joke...

Yes as I said, if you want to start a game, select a bog standard Large database, add England, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Portugal, Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, Greece, Mexico, Argentina Brazil top divisions, all divisions in the league you want to play in + second leagues from the four/five big nations England, Italy, Spain, France and Germany.

There will be no problems with the databases if you do this. Besides, the number of players with high PA isn't relevant. It is the number of these that become true greats that can become a problem. This was discussed earlier in a 500-post thread, and it was proven that too many of them did, but this was not with the 12.2.2 patch iirc.

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No, I know what I have to do - play small DB and load many countries...but the fact is the DB doesn't behave as it should be and SI is saying they've fixed when a very quick look shows they haven't (as I said, we found the bug back in November). For me, this is simply not serious and good enough. I will enjoy FM12 for a while, I am certainly not giving money for FM13 with such timely (if ever) "bug fixing". I don't like playing small DBs and the current FM doesn't allow much else if you want anything close to realistic...

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