Creating a Player

[Romanista1994]

No real comments to make about the training, because although my schedules usually give less weight to physical categories those attibutes can be a significant advantage at lower levels of the game.

I can see the two young centrebacks doing very well as partners in a stopper/cover partnership as they have complementary abilities. I'd love to see how they got on in a few years, particularly if they both have leading Prem potential.

[Dave Vessey]

Partly its a consequence of how I play. My defenders, particularly the centre-backs, look to get the ball forward quickly rather than needing ball control attributes to start moves going, interplay with the midfield etc. And whilst I take your point re. attacking and passing training, would it not be preferable to focus individually on passing at a later stage rather than give time to the attacking area which is mostly irrelevant for defenders (creativity etc)?

[LlamaZA]

I guess its a view you have to take, I wouldn't expend too much focus on Attacking (somewhere between 6 and 9 notches) but I think some training there (especially in the case of Nolan who clearly 'wants' to gain Attacking attributes, probably because he is also a CM). I also look at Pickering and it seems he's desperate to get some attribute gain in Attacking attributes.

I don't think this whole thing is a zero-sum game (i.e. you have X new attribute points and you better be careful where they go), rather players will increase all attributes at different rates over a period of time and they'll have areas that will improve with greater speed and probability - and if you miss out on that you lose that potential gain. Therefore it is up to us to match the training to those attributes in order to maximise the total number of attributes gained.

In these cases I would suggest that you would be able to see the same (or only slightly lower) attribute gain in Defending and Tactics attributes if you shifted some training to Attacking and obtain significantly greater gains in Attacking attributes.

[Dave Vessey]

Ah I see your argument a little better now. Reading the training bar chart has always been a weaknes of mine, but you're suggesting that because Nolan and Pickering have some bar in attacking, despite the slider being on zero, that they'd benefit in those areas?

I'll have a look with a view to adjustment at the end of the current game month when I check traininf progress.

[Cleon]

Don't see the point in wasting CA and trying to shape the player into an attacking one if you're not going to use him as an attacking player. Your defenders don't need crossing or off the ball so it's a total waste just so they focus passing. I'd rather achieve that via individual focus.

So I'm not sure why people are telling you they are in need of some attacking training. Bar passing the rest is useless for the types of players they already are. Nolan maybe I can see why but not for Pickering you'd be wasting vaulable points on attributes he will never use.

You should base training on how you'll be using him and what role for the club above all else.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Tommy_Styles]

Do any of you guys develop players purely as "meat products?" If so, do you use a different approach? I often let contracts of the talents who have "only" 3 star potential run out in order to free up resources (resources such as time coaches spend per player, more playing time for others, tutors will only have to spend time with the cream of the crop and more money for wages), but lately have been wondering whether I should develop them in order to make a profit.

Anyone who goes down this route?

[Dave Vessey]

Its an interesting debate if Llamaza's theory means boosts to attributes in the specific area as a sort of 'freebie' besides general progression.

Just to add, Nolan's bar is at zero now so he no longer seems bothered about attacking.

[LlamaZA]

Don't see the point in wasting CA and trying to shape the player into an attacking one if you're not going to use him as an attacking player. Your defenders don't need crossing or off the ball so it's a total waste just so they focus passing. I'd rather achieve that via individual focus.

So I'm not sure why people are telling you they are in need of some attacking training. Bar passing the rest is useless for the types of players they already are. Nolan maybe I can see why but not for Pickering you'd be wasting vaulable points on attributes he will never use.

You should base training on how you'll be using him and what role for the club above all else.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

I find this a bit odd coming from you, since if I look at your training schedules you always assign some training to what is "not useful" - go look at your Striker schedules that have 4ish notches in Defending or your Fullbacks with some Shooting training. Although above your AMC doesn't have any Defending training.

Anyway, no-one said 'shape the player into an attacking one'. That's a complete misrepresentation of what was said, what I said was that there were wasted 'notches'.

Let's look at Nolan - and let's assume we're trying to make him a pure DC. He has (roughly) 13 notches in Strength, 14 in Aerobics, 21 in Tactics, 6 in Ball Control, 22 in Defending and 0 in Attacking and Shooting.

Now despite this the chances of him increasing his Strength attributes is slightly greater than the chance of him increasing Tactics attributes (13 vs 21) at the same time he has significantly more chance of increasing Strength over Aerobic (13 vs 14) and Ball Control has the same probability as Aerobic despite the vast difference in training intensity.

As I read this situation it tells me that I'm wasting my time with Aerobic training, he's just not getting it - all that 'time'/intensity is wasted here. Meantime he appears to be soaking up Ball Control training like a sponge (and the same for Attacking).

The next bit is the assumption I'm making (if you do not agree with this then my whole theory falls apart); there is no hard cap on how many attributes a player can gain as he converts his PA into CA - i.e. as a player converts PA into CA he gains attributes and it may be 4 or it could be 20. So you don't lose out if a player gains 1 in Tackling and 1 in Off the Ball as if that 1 in off the ball was 1 he could've had somewhere else. He could've gained 1 in Tackling and 0 in Off the Ball or 1 and 1 for the same gain in CA. (I hope this quick explanation makes sense)

What does this all mean? In Nolan's case we should be taking training away from Aerobics since we're wasting our time there, if we had instead focused on Ball Control or Attacking we would have got all the same gains in Defending and Tactics AND more in Ball Control - and in both cases we'd have seen little increase in Aerobics.

Even further then this I sense that 21 notches in Tactics is too high, we could probably get the same training level at 16/17 notches freeing up a further 4 notches to other training areas.

If I look at Strength training I would say its almost perfect, probably one or two more notches would take it to the same Training Level as Defending.

Looking at this player, his current schedule, and his Training Levels I would adjust to the following:

Strength 15

Aerobic 11

Tactics 17

Ball Control 12

Defending 19 (and check Training Level and see if falls/stays the same and adjust accordingly looking for that 'sweet spot' where his Training Level stays high for lowest number of notches)

Attacking 8

[Dave Vessey]

Nolan's training graph has changed quite a bit as the season's progressed despite staying on the same schedule. It might be because he's being tutored, or because the first screenshot was just after pre-season had ended.

[LlamaZA]

Nolan's training graph has changed quite a bit as the season's progressed despite staying on the same schedule. It might be because he's being tutored, or because the first screenshot was just after pre-season had ended.

Ah, that would explain it then. Having just come off pre-season would affect his Training Levels as they're based on the past month. Pretty much makes my whole analysis off the concept remains, but the discrepancies aren't as vast.

I can't see completely clearly, but there appears to be an argument to up his Tactics over Defending for the reasons I've outlined above

I also always like to leave one or two notches in other areas (well except Shooting for Defenders and Defending for Attackers) in order to gauge the players affinity for the stat gain, since generally you do see 0 Training Level with 0 training.

[Cleon]

Its an interesting debate if Llamaza's theory means boosts to attributes in the specific area as a sort of 'freebie' besides general progression.

Just to add, Nolan's bar is at zero now so he no longer seems bothered about attacking.

There are no freebies, they all cost CA.

I find this a bit odd coming from you, since if I look at your training schedules you always assign some training to what is "not useful" - go look at your Striker schedules that have 4ish notches in Defending or your Fullbacks with some Shooting training. Although above your AMC doesn't have any Defending training.

Which individual schedules are you reffering too? Or are you reffering to the general schedules in the thread that you've not read all of where I stated I don't use them, as I use individual ones? If you mean the general ones then yes they are flawed and I don't use them ever. I only use individual ones which is stated in that thread several times

Now despite this the chances of him increasing his Strength attributes is slightly greater than the chance of him increasing Tactics attributes (13 vs 21) at the same time he has significantly more chance of increasing Strength over Aerobic (13 vs 14) and Ball Control has the same probability as Aerobic despite the vast difference in training intensity.

I'm not sure I follow you here. The higher the intensity the more chance it has of increasing the attributes trained in that catergory regardless of how many attributes that catergory covers. From the example you've posted he'd have more chance of gaining in tactics and not strength like you claim. So Im confused what you're on about somehow

The next bit is the assumption I'm making (if you do not agree with this then my whole theory falls apart); there is no hard cap on how many attributes a player can gain as he converts his PA into CA - i.e. as a player converts PA into CA he gains attributes and it may be 4 or it could be 20. So you don't lose out if a player gains 1 in Tackling and 1 in Off the Ball as if that 1 in off the ball was 1 he could've had somewhere else. He could've gained 1 in Tackling and 0 in Off the Ball or 1 and 1 for the same gain in CA. (I hope this quick explanation makes sense)

Every single attribute point takes up CA though. So for example if you have a striker and you want to spend all of his CA on his attacking side of the game then any points he gains in the defensive side of things are wasting his CA and limiting what his attacking attributes will be like.

[LlamaZA]

Which individual schedules are you reffering too? Or are you reffering to the general schedules in the thread that you've not read all of where I stated I don't use them, as I use individual ones? If you mean the general ones then yes they are flawed and I don't use them ever. I only use individual ones which is stated in that thread several times

Still your schedules though

I'm not sure I follow you here. The higher the intensity the more chance it has of increasing the attributes trained in that catergory regardless of how many attributes that catergory covers. From the example you've posted he'd have more chance of gaining in tactics and not strength like you claim. So Im confused what you're on about somehow

The example above was based on misinformation so best to ignore it.

If I look at the new info, what you see is Nolan having MORE notches in Defending but LESS Training Level (possibly the same Training Level). Either way it appears that there is no benefit to those extra notches in Defending.

To make it clear, what I'm saying is that if we placed a player on a schedule with an equal weighting across the categories. The Training Level would be unequal based on the players natural affinity towards certain attributes (position is a key part of this and since we all use pretty solid position schedules we don't see this imbalance that often - but it does exist).

The question is what this means for your training - are you wasting time in that area? or should you overcompensate and try push the player to learn those attributes regardless of his affinity for those attributes? Thus 'overtrain' the player in order to try get an increase in those attributes. Per the example above, you should you push more training at Defending to try get Defending above Tactics (or just decrease Tactics training to make the relative game stacked in Defending training's favour?)

Every single attribute point takes up CA though. So for example if you have a striker and you want to spend all of his CA on his attacking side of the game then any points he gains in the defensive side of things are wasting his CA and limiting what his attacking attributes will be like.

Are they though? Are we saying that there is a fixed sum of attributes that a player can have? So +1 in Tackling is a cost of +1 in something else, and for full CA players this becomes a zero sum game of lose a rating in one place to gain in another? I think I've read somewhere that attributes aren't equally valued (some use more PA than others) and this is based on position, so even then a small increase in Defending attributes for a Striker will come at little cost to his Shooting attributes.

I'm not 100% sure of the background mechanics, but there is definitely a system of increases that occurs in players whereby players prefer certain types of attributes to others - but on the plus side it appears players tend to prefer the attributes they need.

So it becomes a balance game of the cost of PA vs. the cost of training time vs. the relative value of say 3 points in Passing vs 1 in Tackling (almost would you take 3 Passing in 1 year or 1 Tackling in 2 years - its never as clear cut as that but it highlights a point).

I think the goal of my method is to speed up CA gain by taking the player along the path his naturally going and creating a Schedule that tries to get as much attribute gain as possible as quickly as possible. If you look at Januzaj above you'll see the method in action, which created an across the board increase for the player. Now you could argue there was a lot of wasted PA there, and I'd be happy to accept that as a potential problem of this view on training a player.

[Cleon]

Still your schedules though

Which where created a year ago and I admitted they were flawed, hence the move into individual ones. Don't follow your logic or point? :confused:

The example above was based on misinformation so best to ignore it.

If I look at the new info, what you see is Nolan having MORE notches in Defending but LESS Training Level (possibly the same Training Level). Either way it appears that there is no benefit to those extra notches in Defending.

To make it clear, what I'm saying is that if we placed a player on a schedule with an equal weighting across the categories. The Training Level would be unequal based on the players natural affinity towards certain attributes (position is a key part of this and since we all use pretty solid position schedules we don't see this imbalance that often - but it does exist).

If all schedules are equal then all attributes have the same percentage of increasing. The only things that would alter the training levels would be morale, personality, hidden stats, facilties etc. And not training as all would be equal.

Are they though? Are we saying that there is a fixed sum of attributes that a player can have? So +1 in Tackling is a cost of +1 in something else, and for full CA players this becomes a zero sum game of lose a rating in one place to gain in another?

Indeed it is. That's why it's harder to shape players who are already full poential or who have little potential to begin with.

I think I've read somewhere that attributes aren't equally valued (some use more PA than others) and this is based on position, so even then a small increase in Defending attributes for a Striker will come at little cost to his Shooting attributes.

Some are worth more but there things like footedness which take up a loads of CA. And I think what you mention above is actually the other way around, I'm sure I've read that in GQ. Learning a striker defensive attributes would come at a greater cost than teaching him attacking ones as he should already have a decent base for his attacking attributes. But for him to learn defensive ones he's need a lot of spare CA to get them to a respectable level. And the same for a defender learning attacking attributes (unless the values are high to begin with). But you get what I'm getting at I think?

I'm not 100% sure of the background mechanics, but there is definitely a system of increases that occurs in players whereby players prefer certain types of attributes to others - but on the plus side it appears players tend to prefer the attributes they need.

I think they prefer the attributes they use in actual match events. Hence why someone does something they don't usually do you can see an immediate rise of the attribute. Me and SFraser had been studying this for around 2 years and we both came to the same conclusion.

I think the goal of my method is to speed up CA gain by taking the player along the path his naturally going and creating a Schedule that tries to get as much attribute gain as possible as quickly as possible. If you look at Januzaj above you'll see the method in action, which created an across the board increase for the player. Now you could argue there was a lot of wasted PA there, and I'd be happy to accept that as a potential problem of this view on training a player.

I agree with this.

To speed up CA gain though you need to get him tutored by someone better than himself and expose him to match experience. If a player is getting CA which is gained only from playing then he'll see his attributes rise a lot quicker. Hence the player in the other thread I created today and the ones I'll be posting about later or tomorrow. You'll see that the more games they play the easier and faster it becomes to shape them via training due to getting CA at a faster rate.

I actually think our approach is quite simliar even if it doesn't seem so. We just go about distributing the CA slightly different.

[Coentrao]

It can be a waste because of crossing and off the ball but surely it's worth to have some attacking training even for center-backs to improve creativity alone so they can have a better vision of the pitch specially if you want to play a possession-based game?

I mean, a defender with creativity of 5 will punt it long a lot of times while a defender with a creativity of 8 or 9 maybe "sees" a free Winger or DMC to make a pass instead of giving it away cheaply, that's the impression i get but i could be wrong.

Maybe if the defender has very high decisions and composure doesn't need creativity to always pass the ball safely.

[Cleon]

It can be a waste because of crossing and off the ball but surely it's worth to have some attacking training even for center-backs to improve creativity alone so they can have a better vision of the pitch specially if you want to play a possession-based game?

I mean, a defender with creativity of 5 will punt it long a lot of times while a defender with a creativity of 8 or 9 maybe "sees" a free Winger or DMC to make a pass instead of giving it away cheaply, that's the impression i get but i could be wrong.

Maybe if the defender has very high decisions and composure doesn't need creativity to always pass the ball safely.

Well if the attribute is low to begin with for how often he should be on the ball in an area where he is in need to see a lot of different passes, how often do you think that happens? Unless you are trying to recreate a Libero or sweeper system it won't be much. So the benefit would be neglible imo. Plus would you really want your defender to try and do a complicated pass to someone further up the field? Imagine the complications if he did this often but didn't have the technical attributes to pull off what he was seeing.

A defender with 5 creativity wont punt it long, it would depend on his settings and the players around him. He should still be capable to finding the fullback, DMC or MC. He'll just not see the more ambitiou kind of passes.

But like I stated, you should make schedules based on how you want him to play and the role you need him to do for the club. If you want a player who can see every option available then yes it would be important. But remember it would come at a cost of other attributes.

[Coentrao]

Well if the attribute is low to begin with for how often he should be on the ball in an area where he is in need to see a lot of different passes, how often do you think that happens? Unless you are trying to recreate a Libero or sweeper system it won't be much. So the benefit would be neglible imo. Plus would you really want your defender to try and do a complicated pass to someone further up the field? Imagine the complications if he did this often but didn't have the technical attributes to pull off what he was seeing.

A defender with 5 creativity wont punt it long, it would depend on his settings and the players around him. He should still be capable to finding the fullback, DMC or MC. He'll just not see the more ambitiou kind of passes.

But like I stated, you should make schedules based on how you want him to play and the role you need him to do for the club. If you want a player who can see every option available then yes it would be important. But remember it would come at a cost of other attributes.

I agree that if it's too low to start with it's probably too hard to improve it to a decent level and from the rest of your post now i see i'm overrating how important creativity is for center backs, always thought it was the number one cause for panicky clearances.

[Cleon]

I agree that if it's too low to start with it's probably too hard to improve it to a decent level and from the rest of your post now i see i'm overrating how important creativity is for center backs, always thought it was the number one cause for panicky clearances.

Panicky clearances are more to do with Composure. If he has high composure he should still find his intended target.

[däkkä]

My first proper player to come through the academy. Lacks anticipation, composure and creativity. Currently focusing on shooting and attacking categories with individual training on strength. How would you develop this guy?

Here he is a year later:

His training schedule:

[omarm88]

How do I develop this youngster? He is only16 but been involved in first team already. His profile and current training schedule is below

http://s1077.photobucket.com/albums/w480/omarm88/

[Falahk]

How do I develop this youngster? He is only16 but been involved in first team already. His profile and current training schedule is below

http://s1077.photobucket.com/albums/w480/omarm88/

looks to me like you are puting to much focus on physical attributes, you dont need that much training in order to get rapid growt in those attributes for such a young player

[BluMoonII]

I don't feel he has the ability for bringing others into play as a TM (lacks aggression, bravery, strength, jumping). He has potential in leading the line to score and create for others (good finishing, technique, crossing, agility, pace, stamina, teamwork, work-rate, flair).

I'd focus on Aerobic more than Strength; his lack of aggression/bravery would make increasing his jumping/strength a bit pointless in terms of challenging in the air, but making his acceleration/pace higher can help him pull away from defenders, plus his already high work-rate will aid in that. Plus, as Falahk said, they don't need to be incredibly high for youngsters.

I also think focus on Tactics and Attacking as increasing his anticipation, concentration, decisions and off-the-ball will help him get into dangerous areas, while crossing, passing, composure, creativity, decisions, and already high finishing/technique/teamwork will let him take advantage of those situations, whether it's by scoring himself or providing the assist. High teamwork and decisions would ensure he does what's in the whole team's best interests.

Some training should definitely be left in Ball Control because boosts to his dribbling/first touch will further help him get into those dangerous areas, while increases to his heading will just help him score from crosses when he finds space in the area, if increasing Tactics/Attacking works as suggested above.

Shooting doesn't need to be particularly high as his finishing is already good, though you should keep an eye on this in case it begins to lower.

Having the training workload so high also risks burning out your youngsters (become jaded and in need of a rest), which will hinder their development/any time they are given off is time wasted. Plus, unless he's a Model Citizen/Professional, he's unlikely to be happy about it, and when players are unhappy with their training, their development is not as high as it could be.

So, I'd;

Reduce Strength quite significantly - first couple clicks of medium,

Reduce Aerobic by just one or two clicks,

Increase Tactics to at least high,

Increase Ball Control by three or four clicks,

Increase Attacking to at least high,

Shooting can probably stay as is, but watch his finishing.

Depending on how he develops over a few months, then increase any of those areas that are still particularly weak. I don't think he needs an Individual Focus set at the moment. If any of Dribbling, Heading, Composure or Acceleration don't increase as you'd want, then some time on each of them would not hurt.

[Romanista1994]

däkkä - That is some ridiculous development, well done! The only thing I think could help him further is training focus on areas like Passing, First Touch and Composure to ensure that those don't lag behind his other attributes. When those are taken care of it could be time to start thinking of which PPM's would suit his abilities and the way you play him.

omarm88 - The advice from Falahk and BluMoonII above is very good and definitely worth following. BluMoon's in particular has pretty much all the elements which I'd change.

[däkkä]

däkkä - That is some ridiculous development, well done! The only thing I think could help him further is training focus on areas like Passing, First Touch and Composure to ensure that those don't lag behind his other attributes. When those are taken care of it could be time to start thinking of which PPM's would suit his abilities and the way you play him.

And his development is just as ridiculous as his performances for the first team. As a 17-year-old kid he outperformed veterans Iniesta and Fàbregas and near Javier Pastore's level. I didn't plan on featuring him exclusively in the first team but what the hell, if he's one of my top performers, why not? He scored 12-15 goals in his first season in the first team, from MC position, all goals from open play.

He has already picked up plenty of PPMs from Cesc and Pastore who've been tutoring him all this time. Off top of my head he has learnt at least the following: plays one-twos, likes to lob the keeper, tries killer balls often, dictates tempo. Also, I'm focusing on his composure.

[hursty2]

I love how in the OP his determination has gone from 13 to 19 through the use of tutoring.

I didn't realise that a jump of +6 was possible so I usually discard any youngsters with a determination of under 15 but this has changed my mind.

[Romanista1994]

I love how in the OP his determination has gone from 13 to 19 through the use of tutoring.

I didn't realise that a jump of +6 was possible so I usually discard any youngsters with a determination of under 15 but this has changed my mind.

Yeah, the last point of determination actually increased on the day/week that the partnership ended. If it hadn't I would just have given him another round of tutoring though.

I wouldn't discard any youngsters on the basis of low determination at 16/17 as you can get them tutored multiple times. If the tutee doesn't want to learn or falls out with important players I'll send the youngster off on his way as he won't fit in at the club.

[OriginalCMmanager]

This thread is amazing, I had not thought about individual training schedules. I just have 3 generic schedules for Def, Mid and Att. I will now pu more focus on this as have been enlightened to the benefits and growth potential, and the last post about determination is also good to know. I always try and build my teams around youth and tutoring but obviously have never maximised the potentials. I always setup my training schedules to include all schedules and even if it was just a few notches below medium intensity.

Question.

Can anyone tell me which attributes should be trained first when selecting individual training focus, which attributes should be trained first to maximise further individual training.

For example a for a Attacker : would Composure be 1st and then off the ball and finishing (random attributes for example).

[Falahk]

Question.

Can anyone tell me which attributes should be trained first when selecting individual training focus, which attributes should be trained first to maximise further individual training.

For example a for a Attacker : would Composure be 1st and then off the ball and finishing (random attributes for example).

Stamina about 95% of the time, unless the player is somewhat lacking in a mental attribute I would consider vital for the role he is suposed to preform

[Seagullfan]

Still on FM10 and apologies if this is already covered in this thread but haven't had time to read it all yet. Is there a general rule on how many point attribute increases you should expect on average in a year for a developing player. I know a lot depends on your staff etc but I was looking to identify early when it is time to give up on a youngster. Also is there a maximum increase any attribute can actually have as if a striker has say a 2 in finishing at age 16 is he never going to be able to get a high enough level for your aspiration? I imagine these sort of things are dependent on his PA etc but it would be good to be able to rule out certain transfer prospects based on the fact that it is obvious they will never be able to play at the intended level.

[Romanista1994]

Question.

Can anyone tell me which attributes should be trained first when selecting individual training focus, which attributes should be trained first to maximise further individual training.

For example a for a Attacker : would Composure be 1st and then off the ball and finishing (random attributes for example).

I usually go with what makes them more effective the earliest. For example, a striker who already is good at finishing like Erichsen would get his composure upped so that he doesn't buckle under the pressure and then attributes like first touch and technique to give him more and better chances.

As Falahk mentioned low stamina is often a good place to start so that the player can last the full 90 minutes in the first place.

Still on FM10 and apologies if this is already covered in this thread but haven't had time to read it all yet. Is there a general rule on how many point attribute increases you should expect on average in a year for a developing player. I know a lot depends on your staff etc but I was looking to identify early when it is time to give up on a youngster. Also is there a maximum increase any attribute can actually have as if a striker has say a 2 in finishing at age 16 is he never going to be able to get a high enough level for your aspiration? I imagine these sort of things are dependent on his PA etc but it would be good to be able to rule out certain transfer prospects based on the fact that it is obvious they will never be able to play at the intended level.

I don't think there's an actual set rule, but a lot of playing time (which increases ability rather than training), being further from his potential and a good personality will all make the increase sizeably larger.

Finishing at 2 can be increased a lot through individual focus (though that wasn't in FM10), but the player would have to possess no other flaws because you would be spending all of your time on the finishing attribute instead of his other flaws. I have had a player in a Barakaldo save that went from 5/6 in finishing to 14 without having a very high potential, but such increases are only possible with heavy individual focus.

[Seagullfan]

I usually go with what makes them more effective the earliest. For example, a striker who already is good at finishing like Erichsen would get his composure upped so that he doesn't buckle under the pressure and then attributes like first touch and technique to give him more and better chances.

As Falahk mentioned low stamina is often a good place to start so that the player can last the full 90 minutes in the first place.

I don't think there's an actual set rule, but a lot of playing time (which increases ability rather than training), being further from his potential and a good personality will all make the increase sizeably larger.

Finishing at 2 can be increased a lot through individual focus (though that wasn't in FM10), but the player would have to possess no other flaws because you would be spending all of your time on the finishing attribute instead of his other flaws. I have had a player in a Barakaldo save that went from 5/6 in finishing to 14 without having a very high potential, but such increases are only possible with heavy individual focus.

Yes I always try to sign players with professional type personalities and good determination and as I play in Serie C currently I do have a squad with excellent personalities. Also I have many players that have some attributes in the 15+ area so there is a bit of quality as well. It would really be interesting to see what the biggest attribute increase anyone has ever achieved as this would be quite a useful guide about what is possible.

I have been using schedules based on the SFraser principles and must say I am getting some excellent results.

[Cleon]

Yes I always try to sign players with professional type personalities and good determination and as I play in Serie C currently I do have a squad with excellent personalities. Also I have many players that have some attributes in the 15+ area so there is a bit of quality as well. It would really be interesting to see what the biggest attribute increase anyone has ever achieved as this would be quite a useful guide about what is possible.

I have been using schedules based on the SFraser principles and must say I am getting some excellent results.

The principles that those schedules based upon by SFraser were fundementally flawed which he accepted just before he died. He learnt that training didn't work the way he assumed which was confirmed by SI.

[Seagullfan]

The principles that those schedules based upon by SFraser were fundementally flawed which he accepted just before he died. He learnt that training didn't work the way he assumed which was confirmed by SI.

Yes I had read this and was aware of it but I think the results I get are so good that it is difficult for me not to continue in this way. I don't get a massive amount of time to play but have always decided not to download tactics etc but made an exception for his schedules as I was thinking before I read his stuff of building schedules along the same lines so could justify it to myself. I have read absolute pages and pages of stuff on training but have to say I still struggle to understand the training screen and what all the bits do.

Anyway any thoughts on how I should develop these 2 bearing in mind I am playing in Serie C

[Romanista1994]

Rolland - Little strength and quite a bit of aerobic, pretty high tactics and shooting and medium/high ball control, attacking with strength quite low. The rest untrained.

Tagliani - Low strength, fairly high aerobic, high tactics, ball control and shooting. None for the other categories.

[Seagullfan]

Rolland - Little strength and quite a bit of aerobic, pretty high tactics and shooting and medium/high ball control, attacking with strength quite low. The rest untrained.

Tagliani - Low strength, fairly high aerobic, high tactics, ball control and shooting. None for the other categories.

I'm thinking TM for Rolland and Poacher for Tagliani??

[Romanista1994]

I'm thinking TM for Rolland and Poacher for Tagliani??

Those roles do fit them nicely and they look like they could complement each other well so that's a yes from me.

[Romanista1994]

Most of you will probably already have picked up on this, and I'm not sure how I've missed it until now, but I recently noticed it's possible to cancel the partnership between tutor and tutee before the six months come to an end.

This is very useful if the tutor's personality is passed on before the end of the six months as the youngster can go under someone else's tutelage very quickly. One of my youngsters at Roma (different save from the Erichsen one) has gone from 14 determination to 17 under Fabio Simplicio and then to 20 under De Rossi in less than two months since being generated.

I hope I haven't been the only one to miss this though.

[Dave Vessey]

There are advantages to having teammates on each other's favoured personnel list though, and you'd miss out on that if the tutoring doesn't complete.

[Falahk]

There are advantages to having teammates on each other's favoured personnel list though, and you'd miss out on that if the tutoring doesn't complete.

additionaly there would be a risk that hidden attributes have not fully been assimilated, even if the detrmination is going upwards fast

[Romanista1994]

additionaly there would be a risk that hidden attributes have not fully been assimilated, even if the detrmination is going upwards fast

It's not only the determination I look at, I also check whether their personalities and media handling have become the same. In this version I haven't had any players get onto each other's favoured personnel after tutoring, so in my case it makes sense to move the player's personality upwards quickly instead of waiting for something which just hasn't happened so far.

[R0ca]

As Per OP really, I want this thread to be a thread about player development and how you can develop your 15 Cork Lad into Roy Keane.

The idea is we post pictures of our young players with potential and give each other tips on how to develop them into better players, and discuss ideas of what roles and duties would be best for them.

I'll kick it off with a young lad I've got in my under 18's who goes by the name of Hugo Sera. All idea's and suggestions are welcome.

Available Tutors for him are Wayne Rooney & Gonzalo Higuian. I'm playing FM2011 and He's listed as a Wonderkid, his current PPM is argues with officials and he's listed as Ambitious however he's short tempered and confrontational.

Let's get this show on the road shall we!

[Karnage94]

Ah This sounds like a top idea for a thread. I'll start of by saying that lad is probably more suited to playing an AMC role as a playmaker because of his weak finishing and composure. I would think it is too much to ask him to improve his pace and his finishing and composure and his off the ball all in one go, though I might be wrong, but that's why I think you would be better off playing him at AMC where he can really use those incredible technical attributes. I'm not overly sure on how good of a tutor Higuain is and I never used Rooney to tutor.

Actually, just noticed he is good in the air, maybe a creative targetman style approach, kinda like Drogba would work well. But if you are going to use him up top, get his finishing and composure up.

[däkkä]

He looks like a central midfielder to me. He lacks everything I look for in a striker.

Not pacy but has good strength and stamina, bad composure and off-the-ball, great work rate and team work. Good passer of the ball but lacks flair and creativity... and he has decent defensive numbers for positioning, concentration, tackling and marking.

[R0ca]

Ah This sounds like a top idea for a thread. I'll start of by saying that lad is probably more suited to playing an AMC role as a playmaker because of his weak finishing and composure. I would think it is too much to ask him to improve his pace and his finishing and composure and his off the ball all in one go, though I might be wrong, but that's why I think you would be better off playing him at AMC where he can really use those incredible technical attributes. I'm not overly sure on how good of a tutor Higuain is and I never used Rooney to tutor.

Actually, just noticed he is good in the air, maybe a creative targetman style approach, kinda like Drogba would work well. But if you are going to use him up top, get his finishing and composure up.

Thanks Mate, the thread just hit me I hope it becomes a hive of activity!

What a great second that is too, I didn't even look at retraining him as a AMC so thanks for suggesting that I'll have a think about it for sure .

Higuain Makes an excellent tutor actually, He's Evasive, Reserved and Resilient with Determination of 16 so not too bad.

Ya this kid is quite the mixed bag i think no matter how i train him he'll turn out quite un-orthodox.

He's got 3 star Potential so at a guess i reckon his PA will be around the 180 mark he's also very 1 footed and can only play CF so I reckon if i leave him as a striker he could turn out pretty special with all the above taken into consideration.

Keep the idea's coming guys

[Shakes]

If he's listed as only a stiker with no level of ability at all in other positions then training him elsewhere is a dicey prospect, his versatility may well be too low to make quick progress.

At only 18 he has time on his side, with focus I think the finishing can be brought up to an acceptable level so I wouldn't sweat that, he doesn't really need to be moved to another position. Despite his creativity being a little low I still think I'd look to play him as a play making striker, probably the trequartista role. Obviously it depends a lot on the tactics you are currently using though. Maybe you could give us a bit more info on the system you're trying to fit him into?

[Romanista1994]

Interesting player you have there R0ca, he certainly has an unusual attribute spread. I think there are three main roles you could train him in, but he has his flaws in each of them:

1) The playmaker upfront. At the moment he lacks Anticipation, Composure, Creativity, Off the Ball for this role and he could do with his finishing being a bit higher. He'll most likely never be a really clinical striker, so perhaps it's best to leave his ability in that area a little lower and have him learn to place his shots, which should see his accuracy go up when coupled with his brilliant technique. Another PPM to consider could be "Plays with back to goal", because his movement is also quite average for a top prospect and he would see more options to play in others that way. It's also interesting to note how many fouls he has committed compared to the fouls against. He would probably do very well if he was allowed or even pushed to chase after defenders and this makes him a great asset to have in tight games.

2) The attacking midfielder. He would need to be less good at finishing here, but the mental attributes that are lacking are the same ones and he lacks the ability to play the position itself. With his physical ability and his great work rate he could be very useful here when you have a numerical disadvantage in midfield.

3) The midfield ball-winner and retainer. If he was retrained to a midfield position his sheer physicality would allow him to win a lot of balls by winning headers and dominating the midfield. Additionally, his great decision making coupled with his lower vision would mean that he would mostly choose the correct option to retain possession or start a new attacking move (his flamboyancy may push him towards the latter a bit more, probably a good thing when his awesome passing range is considered). For this role and the previous one I'm not too sure about what PPMs would suit him, you may be better off leaving him to do his thing here and only forcing changes to his behaviour when you notice something's wrong with how he plays.

In any case I'd have Higuain tutoring him first to improve his Temperament and other hidden attributes, before Rooney takes over the job to raise his Determination.

[R0ca]

Thanks for the perspective guys. I never actually seriously seen Hugo as anything else other than a striker. It's suprising how short sighted we can be sometimes.

I am leaning towards the creative striker role/Target Man/Complete Forward, I'm really loathe to train him in a new position purely down to the fact that he's not perfectly suited to anything else either. After all it can be nice to have someone who is slightly unconventional.

In terms of my system, it varies depending on circumstance but the 3 systems I will be frequenting are 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-2-1 & 4-4-2.

To give you guys some perspective. Meet Amauri.

He's another young and up-and-coming player Potential Strike Partner for Sera. Infact this kid is rated slightly higher by my coaching staff.

So maybe it would be a good idea to have them compliment each other. As per Sera feel free to input with you lot on board I can have a bigger coaching squad than the Brazil National Side

[Romanista1994]

This one's much more straightforward. Although Amauri could easily play any striker role very effectively he's best as the most advanced player on your team.

Get him working on his speed, agility, decision making, composure and anticipation and he'll be beastly. In terms of shooting PPMs, the one I would recommend as per this SFraser thread is 'Shoots with power'. Barring injuries he should have no trouble learning it and when he's more developed and has learned that PPM he'll be practically unstoppable, beating defenders any way he likes before blasting an incredibly brilliant, accurate shot (19 finishing and either footed? 18 technique and 18 flair? Wow!) past the keeper. He's the sort of player that you don't want to have thinking about where he places the ball, because his decision making and composure are fairly low at this stage, but rather just shoot instinctively and with a lot of force and let his natural finishing ability take over from there.

A thing to perhaps think about if you're playing the two of them together in a 4-4-2 is where you position each of them. If you decide to teach Sara the 'Plays with back to goal' PPM, he's best off playing in the left striker slot with Amauri running onto his throughballs on the right.

[R0ca]

I must be getting Old Romanista as i didn't even realise he was 2 footed lmao!

But yea this guy was always going to be developed in the way you've mentioned he's much easier to fathom as you've stated initially.

I only posted him as with some positions it's better not to consider just one player but the players he will have around him. This guy is Described as Determined however according to his training reports he's very professional as well. I was gonna have Higuain tutor him but I think i'll leave him be as I don't want him learning places the shots PPM and he already has the awful lobs the ball PPM.

I don't think he will develop too much to be honest. He's rated at 2 1/2 out of 3 1/2 Potential atm but I want him to have game time this season. It's going to be difficult to juggle this season as I have too many forwards and i'm trying to operate a 25 man squad with a 1 in 1 out policy. I may have to loan Sara out as well as another 21 year old Striker I have to give Amuari minutes. I also have another young striker who's been out on loan this season who's also a poacher type at about 19.

Damn i've got quite a few young players which i'm sure i'll post up for you all to get your teeth into. Having so many youths makes it difficult to have a clear plan for all of them so having people throw out their opinions is very helpful.

[Romanista1994]

I wouldn't have him tutored by Higuain tbh, his personality seems pretty great already from what you've described. What's his Media Handling Style?

Also, feel free to post up any other players you want advice on.

[Seagullfan]

I wouldn't have him tutored by Higuain tbh, his personality seems pretty great already from what you've described. What's his Media Handling Style?

Also, feel free to post up any other players you want advice on.

Be interested on a breakdown of media handling style as I have just brought in a DC who has media handling as Volatile. Board say he is a bad signing and fans think he will be a disruption.....are there any positives to Volatile and what others should I look out for in future!!!!