el_magico89

really annoyed......

263 posts in this topic

The AI in games is still extremely primitive. Like a Commodore 64 but with bigger numbers to play with to make the game look fancy etc

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I'm not saying that's exactly how it works. This game is essentially a roleplaying game. Your goal is to change the script in your favour and this is done via probability, which you can never sway 100% in your favour, and what you do in the game makes your probability fluctuate.

I.e. Like on a Monopoly board where you land on a bad square, in this game you don't want to land on a bad script, a storyline where you lose

Another example, exclude everything else, both teams are of similar quality but you have better tactics, that gives you less chance of landing on a bad square but your opponent has more of a chance of landing on a bad square because he has much crapper tactics than you. So the chance of you landing on a win, a story of success, is much greater

Your dice has i.e more 6's on it because you chose much stronger tactics

But this dice (just say a dice) can never have a 6 on all sides

So FM is a combination of a book, Monopoly and Yahtzee? Is it also like a car?

Rather than continue with these tortuous analogies, which are no use to man nor beast, why not actually use basic football terms. It's very easy.

1: The team with the best players usually wins.

2: However, a good match strategy and tactical adjustments can counter the player mismatches.

3: If you have good players and a good match strategy, you should do well.

4: However, if you can't get your players motivated, they might underperform.

5: Further, if the players haven't gelled or adjusted to your style of football, they won't be as effective as they could be.

6: Poor man management can destroy a squad, no matter how talented it might be.

7: Every team has the odd off day. If you learn to spot these, you can minimise their impact.

That's pretty much it. It is very simple to understand and isn't trying to peep behind the curtain, which is hiding a level of complexity far beyond the simplistic and highly flawed analogies you are producing.

Also, forget the result is scripted, then you see the match playing out that script. The match does get played out before you see it, but in real time. The ME drives the result, not the other way around. The basic error in your whole conception is that the scoreline is worked out through a few "throws of the dice" then reproduced in the ME.

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You really aren't the full picnic. :D

I'm serious. The computer (PC I meant) is merely a calculator with graphics etc assigned to numbers and those numbers are called upon whenever unique chains of actions are performed, i.e. if 2+2=4 then do this. That's me simplifying it but computers really are not that sophisticated.

I.e. you click on the start button on your computer, you've entered an equation into your big calculator, and the following menu that pops up is the answer to that equation

The only different is that it doesn't show black numbers

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We're wandering dangerously off topic here but just to clarify AI or at least the current definition of AI is found in software & that can be very complex indeed, computers are hardware & on their own are just expensive paper-weights.

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Is it also like a car?

Yes!

A car won't work without wheels, just as it is important you have good players.

If you have wheels but don't have a seat (tactics), then there isn't much point having wheels because you can't use the car.

If you have wheels and a seat, that's great, but you better hope you're at the top of a hill and want to be at the bottom, because without an engine you won't be able to go anywhere else. If you can't motivate your players, you might as well not have players or tactics.

If you don't have a steering wheel, you might as well be managing skilled, motivated players in a good tactic without looking out for bends in the road when the opposition push for an equaliser.

Without brakes, you will be forced to keep driving until you either die in a horrible flaming wreck, or your engine stops working, which... is the equivalent of gelling?

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Very droll!

And furthermore, it is a like car in that if I buy a car and it doesn't work I get the company to fix the problem. With FM, if I have a losing season with my club, even after we've been very good, SI won't sort it out :p

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Not quite got to grips with making sarcastic analogies Mr 1970's songsmith.

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Hmm, car analogies... how about this one?

Trying to drive the car forward while in reverse is your fault not the company's, just like trying to win games with a bad tactic/poor teamtalk is your fault, not SI's :o

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Not quite got to grips with making sarcastic analogies Mr 1970's songsmith.

Ah well, I tried . . . thought the "car" analogy was apt, given that we've heard it about bugs so may times over the years. I'll get my coat . . .

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Don't make me ban you all.

Better a surreal turn than the usual switch into ranting.

I refer you to post # 137 as to why it is useful. :p

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In an effort to sort of return to the topic:

Team shots/goal: 5.9

Team on target/goal: 2.8

Best player shots/goal: 3.5

Best player on target/goal: 1.9 (same player)

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I was just saying that no matter how sophisticated a game appears it's still based on the same principle that if you click the correct options you win. But that would make the game empty, kind of linear, so you make it a probability thing and add lots of options that can go for or against you (a little bit of hit and hope)

Like a gambling machine and I get slightly more tries of winning because I swayed the probability slightly more in my favour

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I was just saying that no matter how sophisticated a game appears it's still based on the same principle that if you click the correct options you win. But that would make the game empty, kind of linear, so you make it a probability thing and add lots of options that can go for or against you (a little bit of hit and hope)
That's not the case with FM though is it, you can do everything right, click all the correct options & have a tactic that is as close to perfect as it can be yet every now & then you will still fail to win.

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some how off topic: who are beta testers? i am not trying to prove anything(or beta testers prove something to the forum), just wondering. and how important are they?

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That's not the case with FM though is it, you can do everything right, click all the correct options & have a tactic that is as close to perfect as it can be yet every now & then you will still fail to win.

And that is why you implement a probability thing so that there is always a high % for failure no matter what. And how to make the game a challenge? Well, you could give the game an overall higher probability (more chances of winning) by default and/or even make it adjust to your playing strengths.

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btw. I dont know, whether you guys from SI are allowed to tell us this, but do you think, there are going to be massive ME changes, or is the new patch going to be focused on other areas of the game?

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The match engine doesnt need massive changes though.

It does but far too many to do on an update imo

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I dont deny that changes are needed, just think that saying "massive" is a tad over the top.

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It does but far too many to do on an update imo

well, after playing a full season with my villarreal side, I can admit, that the biggest problems dont lie in the match engine. its almost the same in my opinion. just need to fix this "throw-in marking bug", maybe less goals from corners and also reducing the effectiveness of quick players or make the defenders at least a bit more risky, so that they dont hesitate to go into challenges, when a fast striker wants to go through them :D

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Maybe make it easier to buy/sell players? That's what kind of put me off this game, I found it too difficult to buy/sell. I want to go a really mediocre team and build my own team from scratch

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Yeah but by the time the season starts I've only managed to sell 1 player. Nobody's putting in bids for the other players. I would like to have 3 or 4 new players before the season starts. I just like the feeling of building my own squad, even if they are worse than the previous squad (or turn out to be worse)

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Yeah but by the time the season starts I've only managed to sell 1 player. Nobody's putting in bids for the other players. I would like to have 3 or 4 new players before the season starts. I just like the feeling of building my own squad, even if they are worse than the previous squad (or turn out to be worse)

quite normal, because most teams dont have great budgets and mostly looking for loan deals.

in the scnd season, its far easier to get rid of your deadwood ;)

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Would it be a correct assumption to say that people see the ME as more probability-based than it really is because the inner workings are hidden from view? That certainly explains the different point of views wwfan and el_magico89 has.

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SI have said this before, but I'll do it again - the TC+Shout strategy is an illusion. It fools you into believing that you are doing sensible, realistic changes in real-life footballing terms when all it does is - like Classic "supertactics" - allowing you to find a set of tactical instructions that works well... universally well, not just in that particular situation. Otherwise what I do wouldn't be possible...

In that case you are also arguing the entire thing was complete rubbish, never mind how you're dealing with opposition - via sliders, TC, whichever. You are suggesting that all the tactical changes the AI makes don't need to be taken into consideration at any point, nor do any match circumstances. You are suggesting what wwfan was pondering about in his first paragraph of post #35 was merely a clever marketing ploy to promote FM's engine and tactical setups, rather than an anything particularly useful. In either case muss lesser management games would trump FM's engine, from a gaming point of view. As crud as Konami's attempt at management was a few years back, it played out in a real-time environment fueled by an elderly PES engine, in which decisions did alter the course of a match, both from you and the opposition, as it should do. I struggle to cope with anyone arguing that playing a little safer away when being up and the home team likely to aggressively push for the equalizer, just to give a very basic example, would be merely an illusion rather than a sensible tactical decision. Maybe I got it wrong, but this is all that is being argued against - that there was a totally universal "tactics" that would suit any situation regardless of... hell, anything.

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Dude I just lost a game, the oposition scored before the wistle, time: 93:30. there was only ment to be 1, yes only one minute added on, now that pissed me off.

But it does happen in real life, I have seen up to three more minutes added on than was stated to allow a team to win this year in the league at home.

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In that case you are also arguing the entire thing was complete rubbish, never mind how you're dealing with opposition - via sliders, TC, whichever. You are suggesting that all the tactical changes the AI makes don't need to be taken into consideration at any point, nor do any match circumstances. You are suggesting what wwfan was pondering about in his first paragraph of post #35 was merely a clever marketing ploy to promote FM's engine and tactical setups, rather than an anything particularly useful. In either case muss lesser management games would trump FM's engine, from a gaming point of view. As crud as Konami's attempt at management was a few years back, it played out in a real-time environment fueled by an elderly PES engine, in which decisions did alter the course of a match, both from you and the opposition, as it should do. I struggle to cope with anyone arguing that playing a little safer away when being up and the home team likely to aggressively push for the equalizer, just to give a very basic example, would be merely an illusion rather than a sensible tactical decision. Maybe I got it wrong, but this is all that is being argued against - that there was a totally universal "tactics" that would suit any situation regardless of... hell, anything.

There are many such universal tactical setuops, not just one. Whichever tactical adjustment you set out to do via strategic (Balanced, Control etc) changes along with shouts will inevitably close in on one of them and this is reflected through improved player performances. To be clear - if I switch to my deeper-lying counter-attacking more balanced tactic and you click on Counter, Drop deeper, Play narrower we are essentially doing the same thing. However, the original attacking tactic I am normally using is much better than the Counter-tactic in almost every circumstance - also defensively. I rarely use it any more mostly because there is little need for it. Why is this? From your quoted post you assume that the risk of defensive failure is higher because it is an attacking tactic pushing up, wide etc - but it really isn't! Sometimes the opponent manages to exploit the space behind the defenders, but they manage this with my 5-4-1 ultradefensive tactic too so it isn't like dropping deeper is necessarily helping you gain points in difficult away matches. You just imagine that it is your tactical adjustments that stopped ManU dead at Old Trafford, while the truth is that if you found a good attacking strategy the same thing would have happened, or a counter tactic, or playing through the middle or crossing from the bylines... it doesn't really matter because that's the illusion I am talking about. "You should defend deep and play defensively in order to get a win vs huge favourites away" - no you don't. You just need a good tactic, a good team and good morale. Go 1-4-5 gung-ho, or 5-4-1 all-out defense (or 1-4-5 ultradefensive/5-4-1 gung-ho)... it doesn't matter as long as the tactic works.

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I'm Female ;)

A lot of people still try playing it like they did CM03/04 but the games moved on since then in the way you was able to play it.

Yeah, and that was FUN, that was A GAME, now it seems more like a bloody job...I guess FM is becoming far away from what I look in a computer game. If I want such "realism" I get a real job or take coach classes or something :p

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I'm gonna jump in here. Just because you, let's say, dominate possession for an entire match doesn't mean you will win. Real life example. Look at my beloved Liverpool. The number of times have I've seen them this season dominate possession and come away with a drow/loss is sickening! It happens mate.

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o...m...g

lose valencia to an injury.. he comes back.. broken jaw

dominating possesion is meaningless. you can quite happily sit with 1% possesion in defence stoping everything and score from a swift counter. its is what you do with it

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I get annoyed with this game too. I find you often fail to win a game you should but rarely win a game you don't deserve.

Also I could be all over an opponent and get nowhere. But whenever I'm getting battered they ALWAYS score. Really p***es me off.

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I get annoyed with this game too. I find you often fail to win a game you should but rarely win a game you don't deserve.

Also I could be all over an opponent and get nowhere. But whenever I'm getting battered they ALWAYS score. Really p***es me off.

Probably because you build your tactics to attack rather than defend & counter.

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i played 13 games (excluding the preseason friendlies) on all of them. deserved to draw/lose about 5 of them. but scraped a 1-0

i beat bradford 3-2 in extra time away they had 2 shots on target, and were completly outplayed. dumb stuff happens.

more annoying when you play junk away from home. and get 4 away games in a row.

just had some bs officiating.

winger recieves ball starts to run at defenders - offside HOW CAN HE BE OFFSIDE WHEN I SEE 3 DEFENDERS INFRONT

striker has a shot it hits the keeper goes wide - goal kick WTF

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I have now found out a way to deal with team talks.

basically, I have 2 coaches + ass. manager with good motivation, man management, determination and discipline attributes (motivation+ man management are the two most important) before a game, I always check up their opinion and mostly it is either "we should tell the players to do it for the fans" or "we are on a good run, we should encourage them" which means "impress me".

Ive experimented a bit, in which I relied my coaches for the pregame team talk and what has suprised me is, no matter, in what a good form/ bad form we were, no matter how strong the opposition was, they always used the calm tone. even as I played against a lower division team in the spanish cup, they just stayed with the calm tone.

so the pregame team talks are always coming from my coaches and since then, Ive managed to beat anything, no matter whether away or home with at least 3 goals difference.

at ht, when the score is level just "im far from pleased" in a calm tone, when youre losing "im far from pleased" in an assertive tone and when youre leading "youre doing well, but there is still room for improvement or keep it up, when youre having a big lead) in passionate tone.

since using these team talks, I have the impression, that I would play with a completetly different tactic. the improvements are just so great :D

so in my opinion, it isnt really important whether you use "expect a win or do it for the fans, or impress me and so on..." its much more the case of which tone you use. I have 3 great coaches with superb mental attributes and they taught me, that using the right tone can make a huge difference.

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TYou just need a good tactic, a good team and good morale. Go 1-4-5 gung-ho, or 5-4-1 all-out defense (or 1-4-5 ultradefensive/5-4-1 gung-ho)... it doesn't matter as long as the tactic works.

If that is your conclusion, I'm wondering how you - or anyone - would want to play the game. If any kind of decision making would be an illusion, and the corresponding statistics and match engine play to be analyzed that goes along with it, the game would be a total waste of time and money.

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If that is your conclusion, I'm wondering how you - or anyone - would want to play the game. If any kind of decision making would be an illusion, and the corresponding statistics and match engine play to be analyzed that goes along with it, the game would be a total waste of time and money.

Neh, just think about it - many players drop deeper and more defensive against better opponents... and wins. Some wants a quick, short passing game... and pulls it off. Some like quick through balls and long passes from the back line... and wins everything with mediocre teams. There are more than one way to Rome; so since there are so many different tactics that works well, the ME allows great variety and individualization. SI has programmed it to be able to deal with multiple scenarios, so there is just as much skill involved in slider tweaking as there is in figuring out the right shout combination for your team. Everyone's happy!

And that's the whole point - if slider tweakers and shouters should both be happy with the game, adjusting your tactics according to the many-faceted situation at hand cannot be the only answer! Yet to the shouters that's what it must be, because otherwise the walls of the world would be crumbling and tumbling down into the abyss of realism. I'm not that dogmatic.

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If that is your conclusion, I'm wondering how you - or anyone - would want to play the game. If any kind of decision making would be an illusion, and the corresponding statistics and match engine play to be analyzed that goes along with it, the game would be a total waste of time and money.

The game's just trying to be realistic in that you never know what can happen. Chelsea are sitting 4th (I think) but I'm pretty sure they were dominant in those games they lost and/or drew. I realized that the game would be too easy (or rather too predictable) if it were mostly about looking at the ME stats and just tweaking here and there per game

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You mean Chelsea in real life? They have been anything but dominant in most games this season, especially not the ones they have lost.

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You mean Chelsea in real life? They have been anything but dominant in most games this season, especially not the ones they have lost.

Come on, they probably had the better of the overall play though. Ok maybe not lots of chances but most of the possession or something, if you had to go back and watch the full match again

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So you';ve not actually watched them but are guessing based on how you think it was?

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So you';ve not actually watched them but are guessing based on how you think it was?

God I'm not trying to cause arguments here. I'm just saying that many people had the wrong idea about this game

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Come on, they probably had the better of the overall play though. Ok maybe not lots of chances but most of the possession or something, if you had to go back and watch the full match again

I suggest you watch football, before commenting on it.

Ill say again Chelsea have been anything but dominant, that is the whole reason they are struggling. They do not keep the ball well, do not create a lot of good chances, and are dodgy at the back, especially when you consider they are suppose to be a title challenging side.

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God I'm not trying to cause arguments here. I'm just saying that many people had the wrong idea about this game

No, they didn't - the majority of people know how the game works. You just assumed they did and then started confusing everyone with probabilities and dice.

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I suggest you watch football, before commenting on it.

Ill say again Chelsea have been anything but dominant, that is the whole reason they are struggling. They do not keep the ball well, do not create a lot of good chances, and are dodgy at the back, especially when you consider they are suppose to be a title challenging side.

You're focusing on the dodgy moments. Your memory can deceive you. If you were to watch those full matches again, even though they lost, they still would of showed that they had more class than their opponents.

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Hang on, you've already made it clear you havent really watched them, yet your telling me im not watching the games properly? Have a day off.

Having class and dominating a game are two completely different things altogether, and do not need to be tied into each other.

Do you actually watch football?

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