RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Been in shocking for ages. At what point does it stop being a lack of form/confidence etc and be put down to the fact that maybe he is just gone rubbish and this will be reflected in his stats. i.e. It will be pretty hard to justify him having awesome stats in 2 years time if he manages an appauling goals return within that time - Anyone else agree? I haven't actually seen what his stats are like on the new game but I imagine he isn't half bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Form is temporary, class is permanent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdunk Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Form is temporary, class is permanent. So the question becomes, is he an average player that had a fantastic run of form a few years ago, or is he a great player that's been in dreadful form for the last few years? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 That's my point... If he scores 6/7 goals a season for the next two years would he take a severe hit in his stats or would the programmers see it as "Form is temporary, class is permanent." I've chosen Torres as I can't really think of anyone who was as big as him that has had such a dramatic fall from grace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 So the question becomes, is he an average player that had a fantastic run of form a few years ago, or is he a great player that's been in dreadful form for the last few years? Ooooh well through out sir Whats the answer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtuck01 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Torres may not be scoring goals as regularly as in his time at Liverpool, but he is still playing well. The fact that Chelsea don't play in the same way as what Liverpool did when Torres was there has more to do with him not scoring than it does with him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Couldn't you argue any mediocre striker isn't being played in a manner that would allow him to score more goals than he does? But again... Imagine he gets 6 league goals this season and for the next two... Surely he would need to take a hit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayIgnition Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You can tell hes a player suffering out of form. that chance he had against United he should of put his laces through it but he cut back and got tackled... I dont think his stats should decrease too much but something implimented like a low confidence striker and its upto you aswell as him to get him to rediscover his form... On my United save Torres is 29 and in Chelsea reserves not even getting a game as hes hardly scored. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtuck01 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Couldn't you argue any mediocre striker isn't being played in a manner that would allow him to score more goals than he does? He scored 81 goals in just 142 appearances for Liverpool in three and a half years. Using mediocre in context to Torres is embarrassing. But again... Imagine he gets 6 league goals this season and for the next two... Surely he would need to take a hit. A few of his stats yes, but not a whole lot of them. Anyone who has seen him play a fair bit this term will tell you he is playing well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCIAG Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 He will inevitably take a drop after the past year. He took a small one in the summer and will probably take a more noticeable one now, though he'll still be a very good player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenco Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If he has an appalling goal return in the next 2 years then yes, his stats will be bad. His goal stat will be low which in turn will mean his average rating will be low in comparison to other strikers who score more goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 He is a very good player but he is not a good goal scorer any more. I think if he is still not scoring by the time FM13 comes out his attributes need dropping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gerrard 8 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 He is the worse signing ive ever seen. His stats should take a battering in my oppinion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtuck01 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 He is the worse signing ive ever seen. His stats should take a battering in my oppinion Nothing at all the do with you being a Liverpool fan, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Using mediocre in context to Torres is embarrassing. Nah mate, this is embarrassing But not as embarrassing as his goals to games ratio for Chelsea. In any case you have not understood what I am saying - I'm not saying he is a mediocre player, I am stating that the arguement used to explain his lack of form could be used for any striker who isn't scoring goals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Nothing at all the do with you being a Liverpool fan, though. Hahaha beat me too it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Nah mate, this is embarrassing But not as embarrassing as his goals to games ratio for Chelsea. In any case you have not understood what I am saying - I'm not saying he is a mediocre player, I am stating that the arguement used to explain his lack of form could be used for any striker who isn't scoring goals. Not exactly, if a player has never scored a lot of goals why would you assume they have the ability? Fact is Torres a few years ago was the best striker in England, you couldnt say the same for just any player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtuck01 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Nah mate, this is embarrassing But not as embarrassing as his goals to games ratio for Chelsea. In any case you have not understood what I am saying - I'm not saying he is a mediocre player, I am stating that the arguement used to explain his lack of form could be used for any striker who isn't scoring goals. So you are taking one miss in one game and ignoring the fact that he was probably man of the match in that fixture? Typical armchair supporter - you only see what the idiot box shows you. Yes, his goals per game ratio for Chelsea is very, very poor, but that does not detract from his performances. His finishing and composure could do with being lowered a bit in future versions of FM, but sweeping changes would be irresponsible. The last sentence I don't need to respond to, it has already been done milnerpoint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelseafanatic Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Torres has not only been in bad form. Anyone who watches his games can see that he is not as sharp anymore. Accelaration, off the ball, speed and dribbling therefore should all have declined. Even though the FM has not changed his stats that much u can see that in previous years he was considered a better striker when he would receive a scouting report. The same happenend with essien and kaka. Those two are only 3 stars when scouted by my juventus scouts. In the previous games they would receive much more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Not exactly, if a player has never scored a lot of goals why would you assume they have the ability? Fact is Torres a few years ago was the best striker in England, you couldnt say the same for just any player. I could have been clearer on that - I am referring more to one season wonders like Marcus Stewart, he showed ability (granted, for not as long or to the standard of Torres) in the Premiership (scoring 19 I think), was his lack of top flight goals from then because he wasn't played in an appropriate position? (I am sure there is a better example of this but I cannot think of one at the moment) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcidBurn Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think his pace and acceleration needs dropping a point and finishing of 17 is too high. I didn't realise he only had 12 for off the ball. The trouble with player attributes are that people will never agree 100 percent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's an interesting question - "form is temporary class is permanent", sure - but how long does the poor form have to be before it's not form anymore, it's a loss of ability? Torres is not the prime-of-his-career-youngster he used to be, he's lost the key yard of pace he had at Liverpool and his best game was on the shoulder of the last defender - like Owen, take away the pace which gave him an edge (and in turn, gives him confidence) and suddenly you have a guy who needs to be doing things he isn't used to, to try and 'invent' goalscoring opportunities. His confidence is low because he's out of his comfort zone and although he is obviously still a very good footballer, his best attributes are no longer being used to their fullest advantage. Suddenly he's drifting wide or dropping deep to try and get on the ball, when crossing and long shots were never his forte, his skill was movement and pace in and around the penalty area to create room for a shot. He doesn't seem to be getting into those positions anymore, and arguably had gone off the boil the season he went to Chelsea - after the bad injury he suffered he was never the same player. IMO he should definitely be taking a hit to his stats - certainly his physical ones, and possibly a few of his mental/hidden personal stats, like anticipation, off the ball and/or consistency. He is technically still one of the world's best players, obviously - so high finishing/technique etc shouldn't be a problem - but at the moment he is rarely in a position to use those excellent technical skills to score goals. If Chelsea hadn't bought him for 50m, and he didn't have the aura of the 'old' Fernando Torres, there's no way in this market nowadays, that clubs would be paying big money for him (were he actually for sale of course), because he isn't scoring, and hasn't for a while. Right now he comes with the reputation but not the ability, and I think defenders have lost their fear of him, and thus no big clubs have come in with a 20-25m offer to see if Chelsea would cut their losses. He simply isn't worth that anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 So you are taking one miss in one game and ignoring the fact that he was probably man of the match in that fixture? Typical armchair supporter I have never said he was a mediocre player, I do think he has been playing well but isn't getting the recognition for it because he isn't doing his main job (scoring goals). You are jumping to your own conclusions here and are coming across as a Torres fanboy. Responding condescendingly as you have done as opposed to discussing it like Milnerpoint shows me you can't put a stong enough arguement forward so you have to belittle what I have said previously. So there isn't really any point in discussing it with you. The link is there because the Torres bashing appears to wind you up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I could have been clearer on that - I am referring more to one season wonders like Marcus Stewart, he showed ability (granted, for not as long or to the standard of Torres) in the Premiership (scoring 19 I think), was his lack of top flight goals from then because he wasn't played in an appropriate position?(I am sure there is a better example of this but I cannot think of one at the moment) Its a chicken or egg question for me, do you have to have ability to achieve form, or do you fulfil ability because of form? Its a hard one to answer really, i often use an Aberdeen player as an example, (surprise there!) Darren Mackie is a striker we have had for 10 years, i think he has a total of about 55 league goals, 16 of which came in one season, now does he have the ability and we have used him wrong all these years except one, or did he just have a lucky year? In the Torres example its safe to say he didnt have a lucky year, or lucky few years, so it begs to question is he now just having an unlucky time of it? Is it possible that one goal changes everything and he comes back to the form of before? That half yard of pace he has lost could be down to him not being confident enough and therefore not sharp enough, or it could be down to him having lost that half yard of pace. Hence the issues the researchers have every 6 months when it comes to FM, when does form start or stop becoming a reflection of ability? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtuck01 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have never said he was a mediocre player, I do think he has been playing well but isn't getting the recognition for it because he isn't doing his main job (scoring goals).You are jumping to your own conclusions here and are coming across as a Torres fanboy. Responding condescendingly as you have done as opposed to discussing it like Milnerpoint shows me you can't put a stong enough arguement forward so you have to belittle what I have said previously. So there isn't really any point in discussing it with you. The link is there because the Torres bashing appears to wind you up Well, yes, it is. That is because the fact of the matter is that people are advocating almost a mass lowering of his stats, when in reality just a few could do with being lowered by a couple of points. He is still an excellent footballer. But because of injuries, and having to play in a new style compared what he did earlier in his career, aswell as an obvious lack of confidence infront of goal, he isn't now scoring goals anywhere near as much as he did before. As the old cliche goes, he just needs one bounce in off his bum to set him off scoring again. And Torres fanboy? I have no reason whatsoever to like Fernando Torres. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 You seemed to take the notion of his lack of ability harder than others... Anyway, I'm not saying he should be turned into a League 2 standard striker. Simple fact is that he is good footballer and he has shown that this season with Chelsea despite the lack of goals. But at the end of the day he wasn't brought in for any other reason apart from scoring goals - His stats suggest that he is a player capable of 25/30 goals a season (he still could be at that standard, this is why I am expressly stating that he would need to not score more than 8-10 for the next two seasons at least). I wouldn't have any issues with his stats being maintained at a high level if they showed a change in striking role (i.e. One who works hard, creates space for others and assists as opposed to scoring). If his goalscoring form were to continue for the stipulated time I don't think his current stats would reflect the type of striker he is/has become. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham206 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It's an interesting question - "form is temporary class is permanent", sure - but how long does the poor form have to be before it's not form anymore, it's a loss of ability? Torres is not the prime-of-his-career-youngster he used to be, he's lost the key yard of pace he had at Liverpool and his best game was on the shoulder of the last defender - like Owen, take away the pace which gave him an edge (and in turn, gives him confidence) and suddenly you have a guy who needs to be doing things he isn't used to, to try and 'invent' goalscoring opportunities. I agree it's really difficult to distinguish between a temporary loss of form and a player who has seriously declined. I remember that Rooney lost form badly at about the time Torres did and there was a period when I thought he would never be as good again: by the 2010 World Cup he had been playing badly for about nine months and couldn't control the ball. Rooney's from has returned and clearly it would have been a mistake to substantially downgrade him for what turned out to be a temporary loss of form, but Torres has been performing well below his best for so long now that it looks permanent to me. Like Kaka or Owen he's not the player he was. It may be that in the summer he'll move away from Chelsea and his form will improve, but I can't see him ever being as effective as he was three years ago. But no-one can tell for certain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
poola21 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Shevchenko from AC Milan suffered the same fate when he came at Chelsea Torres should leave the club he hasn't adapted at Chelsea, the coaches and their tactics did not help him either but I believe his problems are mentally and not technically Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Torres has not only been in bad form. Anyone who watches his games can see that he is not as sharp anymore. Accelaration, off the ball, speed and dribbling therefore should all have declined. Its becouse he lacks confidence. I think its to early to drop he`s stats. Maybe in FM13 or FM13.3 (after january transfer window). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hagakure Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Torres has not only been in bad form. Anyone who watches his games can see that he is not as sharp anymore. Accelaration, off the ball, speed and dribbling therefore should all have declined. Its becouse he lacks confidence. I think its to early to drop he`s stats. Maybe in FM13 or FM13.3 (after january transfer window). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio MVP Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think it's about time he gets properly downgraded. He's been crap for the past two years or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc177 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Torres is still an outstanding player, AVB is asking him to go wide more during games. Perhaps composure could drop down but as this is a confidence thing, maybe it should not. Okay he is not scoring the goals that he once was, surely the stats represent what the player is capable of? If this is the case, then surely he has proven (not recently) that he is worth the stats Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 he should lose a point or two for sure... but he is proven world class player and frankly.. he 's still playing brilliantly... just needs to hit the back of the net and play in the right team... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marty78 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think a small drop for now but nothing too drastic. A further small one for FM13 if things have not improved for him by then. Despite his scoring record of late he is still a good player so shouldn't be hit too hard too quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeHaynes Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Reminds me of Gianluigi Lentini but without the car crash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 reminds me of robben too... lost his way for a few seasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mato Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just decrease him consistency below 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMeppen Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 To understand Torres you need to know about how he previously operated at Atletico and Liverpool, and how that differs from Chelsea and Spain. Torres has always been at his best when the ball is played into space behind the defence so he could use his pace to get away from challenges and then he had the composure to finish. He's never been a great player outside the box when it comes to linking and getting involved in the build-up and relies on having at least one of the midfield pushing up close to him. Atletico and Liverpool both set-up their teams to get the best out of him in this fashion; in the 2008-9 season he and Gerrard - who was playing just behind him - really tested defences (when they weren't injured). The difference when Roy Hodgson took over at Liverpool was clear - he played Gerrard deeper (or on the wing), didn't push the midfield up to support Torres and forced him to come deeper to look for the ball. The problem there was that Torres isn't a player to run at his man because his close control actually isn't that great if he's under any real pressure. That said, give him a bit of space outside the box and he certainly used to be able to do some great things. A similar issue surrounds him when he plays for Spain because the team isn't set-up around him. He is often paired with Villa up front, the midfield play a more patient build-up further up the pitch (limiting the space he has to work in) and he is the deeper striker of the pair. It is rare that he dazzles when he plays for Spain; even rarer when Villa is playing alongside him. And so to Chelsea: again, the team is set-up to suit his game. Chelsea don't have a great deal of pace in their side and play with another midfield that will push on, so he's again got less space to work in when Chelsea's midfield and the opposition's defence are compressed in the final third. As mentioned above, AVB also wants him to go out wide - this isn't something that gets the best of him (but it is helping the team). It's unlikely that Chelsea will see the Torres that Liverpool fans had, because whereas Liverpool built the team around his abilities, Chelsea won't (and it would arguably need some drastic changes for that to happen). That doesn't really help answer the question though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lambs Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Some interesting facts, I heard on TV about him: He has scored more goals against Chelsea than he has scored for them. He has been booked more times playing for Chelsea than he has scored for them. In 2011 he scored more goals for Liverpool than Chelsea. I still think he is a class player, but his run of poor form and complete lack of confidence must surely get reflected in his stats at some time, but as other have stated more eloquently than me, a small reduction in a few stats would do the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 just change all his stats to 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 never will understand these so called genius managers who get paid millions are trusted with these budgets and spend silly amounts on players and then stop them from playing their game the way they need to play.. madness.. especially with a talent like torres. madness. particularly amusing to me is that torres would suit liverpools style of play now down to a tee... and carroll would thrive at chelsea lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisseyMuse Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Some stats may drop in the next update, but he is capable of brilliance still so I'd expect his mental stats to take more of a hit, Pressure and consistency/important matches probably. With the right team/manager I think he'd score buckets once again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott MUFC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 yes i agree, torres is better at liverpool, and it looks to me if chelsea are using him as a more target man, deep laying forward.. which he obviously isn't he should be doing what sturridge does imo. so yes carroll would be beter for cheslea as he is a bigger guy with more strength and is ideal for the target man, deep laying role torres has ended up in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzathafiz Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Been handling Chelsea for several seasons, here's my 2 cents: Torres is a damn good poacher in FM2012...whenever he's not injured or suspended that is - got a bit of a temper, that fella. Then again, as pointed out already it's probably a matter of having the suitable strategy in playing him. I might be wrong, but aren't the player stats in this game decline over time due to injury or lack of games? If not, maybe something that could be implemented in future updates - stats affected by low morale/loss of form. I am all for minor adjustments to Torres' stats if needed to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRock1986 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Having stats fluxuate between a range depending on confidence/morale does seem like a great feature to have - Although it might be difficult to implement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil ole me Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Torres is just poop.......he gets paid a hell of a lot to score goals....not set them up. He will ALWAYS be judged on how many goals he scores and that is just pathetic. Now Alan Shearer was a REAL striker, a person who could score with any team as he proved with Southampton, Blackburn & Newcastle. Stop making excuses for this man, his stats need lowering, or you can do what i did and lower then using FMRTE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coentrao Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I've never seen a player decline so much IRL like Torres, except for Saviola that was amazing for Benfica in 09/10 but has been shocking for the last season and half though he just turned 30.. Supermeppen has a point with his post though, i also wonder if with all the injuries and hamstrings, Torres may have lost that extra yard of pace that made a difference.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidji Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 If you go by late goalscoring form Carroll and Suarez should take a hit aswell. None of them close to be scoring 20 goals a season in the EPL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenco Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 To understand Torres you need to know about how he previously operated at Atletico and Liverpool, and how that differs from Chelsea and Spain.Torres has always been at his best when the ball is played into space behind the defence so he could use his pace to get away from challenges and then he had the composure to finish. He's never been a great player outside the box when it comes to linking and getting involved in the build-up and relies on having at least one of the midfield pushing up close to him. Atletico and Liverpool both set-up their teams to get the best out of him in this fashion; in the 2008-9 season he and Gerrard - who was playing just behind him - really tested defences (when they weren't injured). The difference when Roy Hodgson took over at Liverpool was clear - he played Gerrard deeper (or on the wing), didn't push the midfield up to support Torres and forced him to come deeper to look for the ball. The problem there was that Torres isn't a player to run at his man because his close control actually isn't that great if he's under any real pressure. That said, give him a bit of space outside the box and he certainly used to be able to do some great things. A similar issue surrounds him when he plays for Spain because the team isn't set-up around him. He is often paired with Villa up front, the midfield play a more patient build-up further up the pitch (limiting the space he has to work in) and he is the deeper striker of the pair. It is rare that he dazzles when he plays for Spain; even rarer when Villa is playing alongside him. And so to Chelsea: again, the team is set-up to suit his game. Chelsea don't have a great deal of pace in their side and play with another midfield that will push on, so he's again got less space to work in when Chelsea's midfield and the opposition's defence are compressed in the final third. As mentioned above, AVB also wants him to go out wide - this isn't something that gets the best of him (but it is helping the team). It's unlikely that Chelsea will see the Torres that Liverpool fans had, because whereas Liverpool built the team around his abilities, Chelsea won't (and it would arguably need some drastic changes for that to happen). That doesn't really help answer the question though. That's a pretty good summary. The point about him playing wide is interesting, as when he was out wide against United and whipped in that cross for Mata's goal, absolutely wonderful cross, perhaps he should stay out wide? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolwik Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 His finishing and composure should be at most 10 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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