Letter of Grievances by some FM Fans

[Ackter]

I disagree.

Scouts should have an estimate of a player's CA (depending on their scouting attributes) and they then guess the PA using that CA value, player's age and maybe a few others thigs. This will also be modified depending on their attributes.

There is already a PPA (perceived potential ability) value in the game, I just believe it's too accurate.

[Smurf]

Well whatever way they do it - it shouldn't be as accurate as it is now.

I still think the scouts should be more guess work than calculated to absolute. Perhaps if they averaged out the Potential and then took into consideration the age, stats etc.

I do notice the potential of players going down if they have not played in a while, or they're attributes dip in training.

So there is something going on behind the scenes making the potential rating go up and down.

But for scouting players - I think it should be more of a guesstimate than an absolute figure. I think if the potential of players was rated as a "between", like:

If you have good scouts:

3.5* to 4.5*

If you had bad scouts:

2.5 to 3.5*

You wouldn't actually ever get a player with a potential of 4.5* as an absolute - you'd always get a "between" these * potential star rating.

[Neil Brock]

I disagree.

Scouts should have an estimate of a player's CA (depending on their scouting attributes) and they then guess the PA using that CA value, player's age and maybe a few others thigs. This will also be modified depending on their attributes.

There is already a PPA (perceived potential ability) value in the game, I just believe it's too accurate.

The PPA isn't that accurate, basically in an ideal world the code would be rewritten from the ground up, but that (again sounding like a broken record) would be an incredibly difficult and time-consuming task. That's not to say it won't happen and I certainly hope it's something we can look at in more detail.

In regards to x42bn6's post - I may not be a coder but I do work with them every single day and have discussions about the code, so I think I have a fairly decent idea of how complex, even in layman's terms certain aspects of the game are. I'm also aware how much certain things in the game have potential to vastly slow the game down - increasing the demands on the AI on top of the current code certainly has the potential to be one of those.

[Ackter]

While it's not wholly accurate, it's accurate enough to be right a lot more times than its wrong, which is where my problem lies.

[MrPompey]

It's already destroyed by letting teams like Sunderland who were battling relegation when I took over to reach 4th place.

In 4 years, I've brought a Prem League title, I've brought a 2 Champions League title and I final. I've won the League Cup, and FA Cup. Before me there was no success.

I'm not suggesting a total rubber banding. I'm suggesting that in no way shape or form in 4 years should I have had the success I have had at Sunderland.

When I took over at Sunderland it was a long term project. Now it's short term. I just want to develop the team and players into the best they can be and move on now.

Before this - same saved game

When I was at Santo Andre FC 3rd Division to 1st and State and league Champions back to back. Took me from 2012 to 2016, that's 4 seasons to bring Santo Andre FC to the best team in Brazil.

When I left them, I noticed all the Star players were sold off. And they got demoted. Despite being the winners in that league for and state for 3 seasons ( I think), the Brazlian league thing and State kept on going didn't really get a break.

Summarise

4 years at Santo Andre FC - 3rd Division to multi-time league and State Champions

4 years at Sunderland - relegation battlers to league and Champions League winners... twice

My point is - if you tell your Board, "We'll finish mid-table" it should be very difficult to get higher than that. Maybe next season you say "Euro Spot" and you can make it to that position.

There is just no way I should be able to take a team from obscurity to World Beaters in 4 seasons.

I've done it twice in the same save. I've done with every save I've ever had.

Perhaps the AI winning more is a bit extreme. Perhaps I should be allowed to finish 2nd, 3rd , 4th in League. If that's the case - then don't let the reputatoin go up so high that I get offered world class players, like Ozil, Czech, Wilshere, Zarate

These are players that shouldn't be playing at a club with my REP. Perhaps Rep needs to be slowed down a bit.

But the game has to "rubber band" you somewhere. It's just not there. And I've proven it with every single game I've played with FM 12.

Look at Newcastle (this weekend aside) and their current league position. Would you have included them in there "no way can they finish 4th etc? The unexpected happens in real life so I 100% disagree with rubber banding

However I 100% agree with improved AI around squads, tactics and finances

[Ackter]

Rubber-banding should never, ever, be included in any way in any game.

It's a trick for lazy programmers who can't be bothered to do a proper job of it.

[Smurf]

Well I hope it's some food for thought. I know some changes take more than a year to implement. This is certainly one of these areas that need a bit of revamping.

I wouldn't have a clue how the Scout reports are currently generated, or what goes on behind the scenes. All I can say is that it is really too accurate, even if you have really bad scouts.

[Smurf]

Look at Newcastle (this weekend aside) and their current league position. Would you have included them in there "no way can they finish 4th etc? The unexpected happens in real life so I 100% disagree with rubber banding

However I 100% agree with improved AI around squads, tactics and finances

Take a look at the Spanish league. Barcelona, Real Madrid, in the game always win the league between them in real life.

I can take over Valencia, or At Madrid and in 2 seasons dislodge them from the top spot.

How is that realistic? I took Perugia from Serie C2 to Italian champions in back to back promotions.

I'm not saying that you can't ever never get above your expected final position.

How did I get Sunderland from "avoid relegation" to Champions League winners (twice) in 4 seasons???

It just shouldn't happen so quickly.

I'm not sure what the solution is - but I agree, Rubber-Banding shouldn't be it.

I never heard of the term rubber-banding before.

[Smurf]

I said:

I took Perugia from Serie C2 to Italian champions in back to back promotions.

And to back that up - with each promotion my Board wanted me to avoid relegation. Yet year after year I waltzed the leagues and promoted no problem.

Perhaps if your team is overachieving the players that tend to get nervous their morale could slip slightly more than expected or something.

Just thinking out loud.

[Ackter]

Personally I feel the problem lies in squad building and management. The AI buys the wrong players and uses them in the wrong way.

[Deisler26]

Can I just say that it's all in the way we play? It's taken me sixteen seasons to reach Serie A from Serie C2. In this time, I haven't paid ridiculous salaries or transfer fees (I balk above £3m), tried to win with a mostly home-grown Italian squad and tried to follow the tenets of Catenaccio. This was my choice and in fact my managerial style so I haven't actually seen these problems that Eugene Tyson is alluding to, simply because that's not the way I play.

I'm not saying there aren't things to be fixed, but to sit and say because I can scour the globe for the best youngsters and have the best staff and buy the best that will come, surely you should be expecting success? I mean, if I ever went about that, I'd be expecting never to be out of the top 2 and CL semis after a few seasons.

My point is that, while playing for the best things makes the game easier, don't think that EVERYONE plays that way, FM12 has been the most enjoyable one of the series so far for me and I am happy with the way things are proceeding.

[aderow]

Rubber-banding should never, ever, be included in any way in any game.

It's a trick for lazy programmers who can't be bothered to do a proper job of it.

Oh you have no idea how much I agree

[Ackter]

Oh you have no idea how much I agree

I've gotten into quite a few "discussions" with dev teams over rubber banding in the last few years...

I hated working on games with rubber banding. It made me feel dirty.

[SiN8]

I disagree.

Scouts should have an estimate of a player's CA (depending on their scouting attributes) and they then guess the PA using that CA value, player's age and maybe a few others thigs. This will also be modified depending on their attributes.

There is already a PPA (perceived potential ability) value in the game, I just believe it's too accurate.

Absolutely spot on. I also think some sort of sliding window would work also. Let's say the good scout is able to read 20 points above CA. So he'll be able to differentiate a 120/120 player from a 120/140. But a 120/140 and 120/180 would be rated the same.

[Lawlore]

Can I just say that it's all in the way we play? It's taken me sixteen seasons to reach Serie A from Serie C2. In this time, I haven't paid ridiculous salaries or transfer fees (I balk above £3m), tried to win with a mostly home-grown Italian squad and tried to follow the tenets of Catenaccio. This was my choice and in fact my managerial style so I haven't actually seen these problems that Eugene Tyson is alluding to, simply because that's not the way I play.

Kudos to you, but this is the problem- those limits you've placed on yourself, your "play style" is SUPPOSED to be the default game experience- you shouldn't need to have to blinker yourself from parts of the game in order to find a challenge, which you've only achieved it through self-imposed regulation. I'm sure your board would've had no qualms about you filling your team with expensive, world-beating foreigners whilst running up debt out the ying-yang, which no doubt would've cut that 16 season trek into a much shorter (and ultimately less-satisfying) one. FM is supposed to have at least one foot in reality- that much is evident from the sheer depth of research going into stats, but what you say is right- it is too easy to scour the globe, to have the best staff and to buy the best.

Your play style should be pretty much the default FM experience- managing a club and helping them progress over time in line with realistic expectations. That's what has always given FM its longevity, it's generally been pretty good at that. But the tools currently available in-game give the player far too great an edge over the AI, which means you can pluck any random team from obscurity and have them challenging at the top of the top division within a very short, unrealistic, period of time. Yes, your restrictions do make the game more realistic, and I'm delighted doing so is helping you enjoy it, but you shouldn't need to be doing that in the first place- that just underlines the point that the basic game, as it stands, is too easy.

[Smurf]

Can I just say that it's all in the way we play? It's taken me sixteen seasons to reach Serie A from Serie C2. In this time, I haven't paid ridiculous salaries or transfer fees (I balk above £3m), tried to win with a mostly home-grown Italian squad and tried to follow the tenets of Catenaccio. This was my choice and in fact my managerial style so I haven't actually seen these problems that Eugene Tyson is alluding to, simply because that's not the way I play.

I'm not saying there aren't things to be fixed, but to sit and say because I can scour the globe for the best youngsters and have the best staff and buy the best that will come, surely you should be expecting success? I mean, if I ever went about that, I'd be expecting never to be out of the top 2 and CL semis after a few seasons.

My point is that, while playing for the best things makes the game easier, don't think that EVERYONE plays that way, FM12 has been the most enjoyable one of the series so far for me and I am happy with the way things are proceeding.

Again - this falls under the answer of "simply don't do it".

It's not a solution to the issues, that's just ignoring them.

Although in my Santo Andre adventure, I rebuilt the team with better players I found for free. I sold off the other players. They were mostly Brazilian players.

The goalkeeper I got for free in Division 2 of the leagues went on to become the Brazilian national goalkeeper. Another chap I found for free, Opinzo I think his name was, and he went on to become one of Chile's best players.

I found these players with scouts, scouts that were not very good. I signed them because I needed players and couldn't afford to pay for players. I didn't do anything wrong, I saw weak spots in my team, I scouted, I found players, I signed them. I sold other players off. Like any manager would do. The problem is with the frequency to which you can do this. I can buy and sell whole new teams in transfer windows.

And tell me this, if Jack Wilshere and Mesut Ozil were offered to you and you could afford it, would you take them or decline the offer? I accept the offers and I get them, because I want to have the best players I can. And someone offers me a winning ticket I'm not going to say no.

Sure I can start a game as Sunderland and say I'll get mid-table, and play every game and structure myself into a mid-table finish. But why would I?

I don't think I've changed tactics that much in the 10 seasons I've played so far. I think I moved my DM to an AM in the tactics. But that's it. I've played with the same tactic and instructions for the team for over 4 seasons.

AI should adapt, learn how to beat my tactic and force me to change over time.

Ignoring these issues and simply not doing it is not a viable answer to fixing a game that's dreadfully broken. Yes I can play and restrict myself, but I don't do it so I can bring up issues like everything I've mentioned.

I just want the game to be better. And I've played every version of CM up to it changed to FM and every version of it.

[Ackter]

Absolutely spot on. I also think some sort of sliding window would work also. Let's say the good scout is able to read 20 points above CA. So he'll be able to differentiate a 120/120 player from a 120/140. But a 120/140 and 120/180 would be rated the same.

See I disagree - the only way a coach would be able to tell the difference between that 120/120 player and the 120/140 player is one season later when the first is still 120 but that second has now hit 125. Up until that point, the coach should believe that both are of a similar potential (given that their ages, performances etc are similar). It's only when the second player starts to stand above the other would he revise his judgement.

[Smurf]

Kudos to you, but this is the problem- those limits you've placed on yourself, your "play style" is SUPPOSED to be the default game experience- you shouldn't need to have to blinker yourself from parts of the game in order to find a challenge, which you've only achieved it through self-imposed regulation. I'm sure your board would've had no qualms about you filling your team with expensive, world-beating foreigners whilst running up debt out the ying-yang, which no doubt would've cut that 16 season trek into a much shorter (and ultimately less-satisfying) one. FM is supposed to have at least one foot in reality- that much is evident from the sheer depth of research going into stats, but what you say is right- it is too easy to scour the globe, to have the best staff and to buy the best.

Your play style should be pretty much the default FM experience- managing a club and helping them progress over time in line with realistic expectations. That's what has always given FM its longevity, it's generally been pretty good at that. But the tools currently available in-game give the player far too great an edge over the AI, which means you can pluck any random team from obscurity and have them challenging at the top of the top division within a very short, unrealistic, period of time. Yes, your restrictions do make the game more realistic, and I'm delighted doing so is helping you enjoy it, but you shouldn't need to be doing that in the first place- that just underlines the point that the basic game, as it stands, is too easy.

Everything in bold. Is exactly my point. Well his point, but I agree.

Well said.

Board don't care that I am losing €11m a month - they remind me they are in a healthy position COOL.

I've had to sign 16 - 18 year olds from all over the world to beef up my youth squad, the English regens are rubbish. (see post 103)

I was able to sign every scout I went for. Knowing what scout attributes to look for make it very easy to sign top scouts for very little.

[SiN8]

See I disagree - the only way a coach would be able to tell the difference between that 120/120 player and the 120/140 player is one season later when the first is still 120 but that second has now hit 125. Up until that point, the coach should believe that both are of a similar potential (given that their ages, performances etc are similar). It's only when the second player starts to stand above the other would he revise his judgement.

One problem of relying only on CA is that RL scouts have a sense of which attributes can be improved by age. Let's say a kid is dominating youth league by brute strength and size, but lacks vision or technical abilities. His CA might be higher than his peers, but scouts would favor a smaller player with technical abilities that would be able to grow into his frame.

It's nuisances like this that are difficult and complex to program into FM.

[Ackter]

I still find it weird that people use FMScout "to even the odds with the AI".

There's plenty of legitimate uses for FMScout* (or Genie or whatever its called these days), but that isn't one of them.

*testing, bug avoidance, because you really want to etc

[Deisler26]

Again - this falls under the answer of "simply don't do it".

It's not a solution to the issues, that's just ignoring them.

Although in my Santo Andre adventure, I rebuilt the team with better players I found for free. I sold off the other players. They were mostly Brazilian players.

The goalkeeper I got for free in Division 2 of the leagues went on to become the Brazilian national goalkeeper. Another chap I found for free, Opinzo I think his name was, and he went on to become one of Chile's best players.

I found these players with scouts, scouts that were not very good. I signed them because I needed players and couldn't afford to pay for players. I didn't do anything wrong, I saw weak spots in my team, I scouted, I found players, I signed them. I sold other players off. Like any manager would do. The problem is with the frequency to which you can do this. I can buy and sell whole new teams in transfer windows.

And tell me this, if Jack Wilshere and Mesut Ozil were offered to you and you could afford it, would you take them or decline the offer? I accept the offers and I get them, because I want to have the best players I can. And someone offers me a winning ticket I'm not going to say no.

Sure I can start a game as Sunderland and say I'll get mid-table, and play every game and structure myself into a mid-table finish. But why would I?

I don't think I've changed tactics that much in the 10 seasons I've played so far. I think I moved my DM to an AM in the tactics. But that's it. I've played with the same tactic and instructions for the team for over 4 seasons.

AI should adapt, learn how to beat my tactic and force me to change over time.

Ignoring these issues and simply not doing it is not a viable answer to fixing a game that's dreadfully broken. Yes I can play and restrict myself, but I don't do it so I can bring up issues like everything I've mentioned.

I just want the game to be better. And I've played every version of CM up to it changed to FM and every version of it.

First off, I don't believe that I'm 'restricting' myself. I'm playing in the way that I enjoy. Secondly, I would turn them both down, simply as a) they wouldnt fit into my system and b) I don't like buying 'name' players.

I'm not saying that your opinion is any less valid than mine or that there is nothing wrong with the game. However, what you have said so far is "I've got the best, it's too easy".

[Ackter]

One problem of relying only on CA is that RL scouts have a sense of which attributes can be improved by age. Let's say a kid is dominating youth league by brute strength and size, but lacks vision or technical abilities. His CA might be higher than his peers, but scouts would favor a smaller player with technical abilities that would be able to grow into his frame.

It's nuisances like this that are difficult and complex to program into FM.

That would need to be programmed into the national tendencies imo - a lot of English teams seem to favour the big fast lump players, for example. Instead of building a team to play in a certain way, to groom them for the first team, they just put the big strong ones on and try to win everything. Winning means nothing at youth level.

[Smurf]

First off, I don't believe that I'm 'restricting' myself. I'm playing in the way that I enjoy. Secondly, I would turn them both down, simply as a) they wouldnt fit into my system and b) I don't like buying 'name' players.

I'm not saying that your opinion is any less valid than mine or that there is nothing wrong with the game. However, what you have said so far is "I've got the best, it's too easy".

And I'm playing in a way I enjoy.

I have one system. Doesn't matter who I buy. They slot in at whatever position they are marked at.

I didn't particularly need Mesut Ozil, but you know world class player and I was in. I never thought he'd sign for me. But again, that's not the point really - it's the fact that he was offered to Sunderland that bothers me.

Same with Jack Wilshere, Sunderland shouldn't even be on the list of teams to offer him to.

That's the point really.

[Deisler26]

Kudos to you, but this is the problem- those limits you've placed on yourself, your "play style" is SUPPOSED to be the default game experience- you shouldn't need to have to blinker yourself from parts of the game in order to find a challenge, which you've only achieved it through self-imposed regulation. I'm sure your board would've had no qualms about you filling your team with expensive, world-beating foreigners whilst running up debt out the ying-yang, which no doubt would've cut that 16 season trek into a much shorter (and ultimately less-satisfying) one. FM is supposed to have at least one foot in reality- that much is evident from the sheer depth of research going into stats, but what you say is right- it is too easy to scour the globe, to have the best staff and to buy the best.

Your play style should be pretty much the default FM experience- managing a club and helping them progress over time in line with realistic expectations. That's what has always given FM its longevity, it's generally been pretty good at that. But the tools currently available in-game give the player far too great an edge over the AI, which means you can pluck any random team from obscurity and have them challenging at the top of the top division within a very short, unrealistic, period of time. Yes, your restrictions do make the game more realistic, and I'm delighted doing so is helping you enjoy it, but you shouldn't need to be doing that in the first place- that just underlines the point that the basic game, as it stands, is too easy.

As I've said. I'm not restricting myself. I play as I see fit. In the same way that Skyrim is not just playing the main quest and done. FM is not "Buy the best, win it all". I understand your points, but that's not MY default playing style.

[Deisler26]

And I'm playing in a way I enjoy.

I have one system. Doesn't matter who I buy. They slot in at whatever position they are marked at.

I didn't particularly need Mesut Ozil, but you know world class player and I was in. I never thought he'd sign for me. But again, that's not the point really - it's the fact that he was offered to Sunderland that bothers me.

Same with Jack Wilshere, Sunderland shouldn't even be on the list of teams to offer him to.

That's the point really.

So really, your point was only that Sunderland shouldn't be offered players like Ozil and Wilshere? Fair enough.

[Ackter]

Same with Jack Wilshere, Sunderland shouldn't even be on the list of teams to offer him to.

The current offers feature is literally an all or nothing thing. If a player is offered to one team, he is offered to every team. That's why you got offered him, they didn't just pick you out.

[Guest]

Everything in bold. Is exactly my point. Well his point, but I agree.

Well said.

Board don't care that I am losing €11m a month - they remind me they are in a healthy position COOL.

I've had to sign 16 - 18 year olds from all over the world to beef up my youth squad, the English regens are rubbish. (see post 103)

I was able to sign every scout I went for. Knowing what scout attributes to look for make it very easy to sign top scouts for very little.

You haven't had to sign teenage talent from around the globe, you chose to seek out & sign these players & now it is SI's fault that you went down this route?

I am among the loudest voices saying that the game is not perfect & that it does allow far too many exploits for my liking but without them many casual players will walk away from the series & whether we like it or not it is the casual players who keep this title going.

This is an assumption on my part & for that I apologise in advance if it is not he case but is sounds like you play each & every save in the same way & are disappointed that each & every time you get the same result, take a step back for a moment & consider how you can modify your playing style to make the game more challenging.

Do you load extra player files? If so don't as this can unbalance the player database & make it easier to find talent in obscure locations that the AI does not search.

Ditch FM scout, no good can ever come from that programme.

Be more disciplined with your finances, just because the game mistakenly allows you to pile on transfer liability with little or no downside it doesn't mean you have to use it.

Upload your various successful save files to ftp, if the SI dev team can see how you're making the game so easy then it can only help them in making the game more difficult.

[Smurf]

I still find it weird that people use FMScout "to even the odds with the AI".

There's plenty of legitimate uses for FMScout* (or Genie or whatever its called these days), but that isn't one of them.

*testing, bug avoidance, because you really want to etc

I branched my Santo Andre to Sunderland game into another game where Arsenal wanted me as boss.

I was in charge of Sunderland for 1.5 seasons. And all of a sudden Arsenal wanted me, keeping in my mind that every club I applied to from Santo Andre all laughed at me. Sunderland were kind enough to take me on.

But it was farcical that after 1.5 seaons Arsenal wanted me so I went ahead and branched my save and went with Arsenal.

Again, I stripped the team apart, I sold off the junk and bought in better players as per my scout reports. Again in 3 seasons I had a world beating team. I spent another 5 seasons winning everything, Quadruple after Quadruple, and soon got bored.

As I was finished with that save anyway, I then decided to check FM Scout to see what the players were like that I had bought. My scouts had found nearly all the best players in the world and I had signed them.

I think I spent €250m in my first transfer window at Arsenal. And I don't think the game should allow this. I shouldn't be allowed to sell off 20 players. I sold Walcott for €20m ish I think and the Board allowed it.

The Board should be interjecting.

[SiN8]

The current offers feature is literally an all or nothing thing. If a player is offered to one team, he is offered to every team. That's why you got offered him, they didn't just pick you out.

Isn't there an automatic filtering based on mutual interest? If Sunderland is on the list, doesn't that mean Wilshere would considering joining? We don't see the offer extended to league 1 teams.

[Ackter]

I imagine its based on reputation bands.

[Smurf]

You haven't had to sign teenage talent from around the globe, you chose to seek out & sign these players & now it is SI's fault that you went down this route?

I have - despite having top youth facilites, and youth coaches, I never get a good regen, ever. My U18s are so weak they never make it to the reserve team. With no English players in my team I can't play in the league.

So now I buy up youth from around the world, because they will be classed as trained at Sunderland if they train there for 3 years between 15 and 21. Hence they will be trained in nation and trained by Sunderland, allowing me fill my quota.

It's nearly impossible to sign the good youth players that the AI gets into their teams in the Premier League.

So yes, I do have to sign youth from around the world.

This is an assumption on my part & for that I apologise in advance if it is not he case but is sounds like you play each & every save in the same way & are disappointed that each & every time you get the same result, take a step back for a moment & consider how you can modify your playing style to make the game more challenging.

Again, that's ignoring the issues and not addressing them and fixing them.

Why can Sunderland in my first season in charge spend €150m in a transfer window?

Do you load extra player files? If so don't as this can unbalance the player database & make it easier to find talent in obscure locations that the AI does not search.

So the AI doesn't search obscure locations?

So I shouldn't? Perhaps the AI should be fixed to search these obscure locations instead?

Ditch FM scout, no good can ever come from that programme.

I don't use it, unless at the end of a career where I have a peak at my team and see what I had. I then dump that game.

I usually start a new game directly after this.

Be more disciplined with your finances, just because the game mistakenly allows you to pile on transfer liability with little or no downside it doesn't mean you have to use it.

Again, why can't this be fixed? Why do I have to curb my style of play?

No club, no board, ever has said "NO you can't buy this player." "NO you can't spend any more." "NO you can't sell 20 players". "NO you can't sell a club favourite"

etc.

I'm not saying I can't do what you suggest, because I can. But I shouldn't have to. It simply should not be in the game.

Ignoring the issue is not fixing the issue.

Upload your various successful save files to ftp, if the SI dev team can see how you're making the game so easy then it can only help them in making the game more difficult.

I will be starting a new save when the transfer deadline patch is out - and I'll do it then.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Guest]

Eugene, I'm not ignoring any issues, I know they exist & have made my points known to SI.

What I'm suggesting is that you try to play the game differently to see how you get on because in the short to medium term you are likely to be disappointed with FM as it will take time for the game to develop into a meaningful challenge for people who know about & exploit the various weaknesses.

As for your comment on youth players & Fred's I do not see where you are coming from, granted some teams will receive better youth players than others but this will be down to them having well established & highly focused youth development programmes, most clubs will only get a couple of half decent prospects a year & they do not spend their time signing 4.5* PA 16 year old players from deepest Peru.

It's already been mentioned but it is worth repeating, set your own rules & stick to them, you might be surprised how interesting the game becomes.

[Ackter]

Once I've upgraded youth facilities to the top class I get roughly one first team player every two seasons on average coming through my youth. The hard part is identifying which ones are worth the time (and believe me, in this case at this age your coaches are often wrong until the youth have been in your team for quite a while) and effort.

[Smurf]

Eugene, I'm not ignoring any issues, I know they exist & have made my points known to SI.

It's already been mentioned but it is worth repeating, set your own rules & stick to them, you might be surprised how interesting the game becomes.

I know what you meant Barside. But I wasn't suggesting you were ignoring the issues.

What I'm saying is that if these things are not brought up and said and given as feedback to SI then they will never be fixed.

This is a Football Management game. Yet there are no ramifications for going into debt, that I can see. As I say, I'm losing €11m a month and the Board are fine with that.

I'm playing the game. I'm finding the exploits, I'm telling SI. And all I get as feedback is "set your own rules and stick to them".

That's not an answer to the issues.

At Santo Andre all I could do was sign free players. The players I had weren't good enough. I found replacements for FREE through scouting. I didn't have a transfer budget or high wages to offer. And I still found my way to the State, League and Copa Suda and Libertoars champions in 4 seasons (Brazilian seasons are back to back, don't know if you ever played them?)

Now I'm at Sunderland I have the cash to play with. So I'm spending it on youth players and the odd world class player that's offered to me.

All my youth are found through scouting.

[SiN8]

As I was finished with that save anyway, I then decided to check FM Scout to see what the players were like that I had bought. My scouts had found nearly all the best players in the world and I had signed them.

Were you buying established players or youth players? I think scouts should be fairly accurate for established players, but need to be toned down for youth.

I think I spent €250m in my first transfer window at Arsenal. And I don't think the game should allow this. I shouldn't be allowed to sell off 20 players. I sold Walcott for €20m ish I think and the Board allowed it.

I don't see why the board should stop you. If you're spending within your limits, what's the basis of board intervention? Personally, I think Arsenal would take €20m for Walcott.

The Board should be interjecting.

I disagree about the board interjecting. You should have the freedom to build your own team as you see fit. However, FM needs to inject a harsher chemistry penalty for replacing a whole team.

[Smurf]

Once I've upgraded youth facilities to the top class I get roughly one first team player every two seasons on average coming through my youth. The hard part is identifying which ones are worth the time (and believe me, in this case at this age your coaches are often wrong until the youth have been in your team for quite a while) and effort.

Thanks I did know this. I'll try to keep a few more youth players for a while and take more notice with them.

[Ackter]

I don't let them go until they've hit 21 - I've seen a few players go from average to spectacular once they hit their twenties.

Even more annoyingly, I've seen plenty of 21 year old DCs that I've sold to rivals turn into bloody world beaters by 25

[Ackter]

I let him go at the age of 20 because he was distinctly average

[Smurf]

Were you buying established players or youth players? I think scouts should be fairly accurate for established players, but need to be toned down for youth.

I bought players like David Goodwillie, Innes Fletcher, a few players like that, between 10 and 15m each.

That was my first season I think. I also went through the youth players took me hours of searching to find the really good ones.

Definitely, established players should be more definitive, and youth should be a bit more hit and miss.

I don't see why the board should stop you. If you're spending within your limits, what's the basis of board intervention? Personally, I think Arsenal would take €20m for Walcott.

When your transfer budget is 38m for the season and you tally up 150m in deals...

Yes the 48 month deal thing is too easy to buy a whole new team. This is why I'm now losing 11m a month but the Board are fine with it, they tell me they are in a good financial position.

Plus Niall Quinn keeps dumping about €150m into the club every now and then. Handy.

I disagree about the board interjecting. You should have the freedom to build your own team as you see fit. However, FM needs to inject a harsher chemistry penalty for replacing a whole team.

Well some consequences, I said earlier on that there should be consequences and the Board interjecting from time to time.

Consequences could be - League Performance moved from Avoid Relegation to Euro Cup place or something. That would mean your job would be under threat if you didn't reach it.

Then not being in the position that the Board have refined could add pressure to players, they lose morale, get stressed etc. with the expectations.

[Ackter]

Do you play with fog of war off? You shouldn't be able to look through most of the youth without scouting them at least 3 times if you had it turned on.

And I agree, the boards should be much more hands-on when you start doing crazy things.

[Cleon]

Consequences could be - League Performance moved from Avoid Relegation to Euro Cup place or something. That would mean your job would be under threat if you didn't reach it.

Already happens in the game.

[Guest]

Not if you use the 48 month payment exploit.

[Cleon]

Not if you use the 48 month payment exploit.

Ahh okay

[Smurf]

Do you play with fog of war off? You shouldn't be able to look through most of the youth without scouting them at least 3 times if you had it turned on.

And I agree, the boards should be much more hands-on when you start doing crazy things.

I do play with the fog of war. (That is I can't see most of their stats until scouted). I scout players sometimes for a whole season before deciding to buy.

I have 16 scouts. They scout every competition, from U18, U19, African Champions League, Asia U21, Asia Cup, all the cups. All the international tournaments at all levels etc. I scout every league, Argentina, Brazil, UK/Ireland, France, Germany, Portugal, Holland, Russia, Italy, Croatia, Czech Republic, etc. etc. etc.

I regularly check the scout reports and set the Scout Team to scout a player for 3 matches. I wish I had the option to scout them for longer, hence why I have to go back and rescout them about once a month.

I don't make any decisions until January or Summer transfer windows.

[Smurf]

I will add that also Scout for the Central Europe, South Europe, North America, Middle East etc.

I've gone from a 35% scouting knowledge to nearly 65% in one season. Although the players they are finding the ME, Asia, North America are not worth the effort. But I want to increase the scouting knowledge.

I'd be better off focussing the scouts in the areas where players Develop, like Central Europe, Uk/Ireland, indvidual top leagues, and the Brazil and Argentina leagues.

My scouting knowledge would be about 40%, but I think I'm fairly safe ignoring the other 60%.

I did find a decent youngster in China though, which was surprising.

[Coentrao]

It's harder to poach youngsters on this version anyway isn't?

I've seen a few great 16 year old youngsters from Spanish clubs like Espanyol or Athletic that wouldn't settle for at least 14M for them, while on previous versions they would probably take 5M or so for them.

[Ackter]

It's harder to steal them in pre-contracts, but once they've signed for their club it becomes easier imo.

[Govnar1]

See I disagree - the only way a coach would be able to tell the difference between that 120/120 player and the 120/140 player is one season later when the first is still 120 but that second has now hit 125. Up until that point, the coach should believe that both are of a similar potential (given that their ages, performances etc are similar). It's only when the second player starts to stand above the other would he revise his judgement.

Scouting is definitely overpowered at the moment in my opinion. First issue is inadequate fog of war. We get to see player attributes way too fast and they are always 100% accurate regardless of scout used. Not even the best scouts should be able to give such an accurate picture of players ability and certainly not on such a short notice. Than there's a problem of judging ability of players that play in lower/lesser leagues against poor opposition. Finally judging potential ability is far too accurate. This should be much more hit and miss, even for best scouts out there.

[Shukela]

I found the game to be too easy finding good prospects. For example when I play with a club from Turkish Lower Leagues , after you promote to top league or 2nd division its incredibly easy to win the league in lets say 4,5 years. Find a good scout , send him to Germany, usually the teams release high potential regen players on free, sign few of them , let them play for you a year or two, sell it to a European club for 5-10M€ , do same thing every year and in the end you have a very nice financial status while other teams are usually dealing with bankruptcy.

[Coentrao]

I found the game to be too easy finding good prospects. For example when I play with a club from Turkish Lower Leagues , after you promote to top league or 2nd division its incredibly easy to win the league in lets say 4,5 years. Find a good scout , send him to Germany, usually the teams release high potential regen players on free, sign few of them , let them play for you a year or two, sell it to a European club for 5-10M€ , do same thing every year and in the end you have a very nice financial status while other teams are usually dealing with bankruptcy.

I find this an issue as well, the youngsters with high potential released from top clubs though i read it might be caused if you load leagues on view-only or players from regions which i did on my current save, don't know if that's your case.