sperlz

2013 Primary Focus - Match Engine

174 posts in this topic

Since the 3D match engine was first introduced to FM about 4 years ago or so... it hasn't really improved a great deal. In terms of graphics improvements and stuff its fine that has been improved. Its the actual engine itself which is tweaked and adjusted every year but never actually improved greatly.

There are big parts of the game of football that are missing from the match engine and I find that disappointing. Things such as variation for why players are sent off, handballs are way too rare and goalkeepers cant get sent off... the only possible way for them to get sent off is through a glitch where they glide with the ball out of their area but it looks fake and buggy. Also Keepers dont give away penalties or freekicks, the engine doesn't seem to let them make contact with outfield players. I still think the marking in the match engine is quite poor as well and have posted some screenshots in the bugs forum of examples.

I think the match engine should be the most important part of the game and therefore it needs to be improved to further the game, at the moment I dont really feel like starting a new game because whats the point if it is missing vital things like keeper red cards and keepers giving away penalties and also penalty handballs only happening 1 in a million. It defeats the object of emulating a football game if its missing all the key features. Come on SI the games been out since Championship manager in the early 90's!!! How can you have such key incidents missing from the game in 2012! Sort it out SI.

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I agree with you 100%. Match engine must be first on the list. Its not bad engine, but its same for so many years. We really need new stuff, because we have our old tactics and after so many years, they work like dream. But i dont agree with you that you will not play new game, just because some things are not in the match engine. its the game, after all. i was playin f. manager games 20 years ago and had fun. and they had 1% of options if you compare them to football manager today.

20 years ago, in first f. managers, you just had result from the match. no subs or tactic switch. but it was fun. :)

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To much time has been wasted tinkering with the match engine, they need to work on the AI of the computer managers. There is a superb thread on here by DaveC, on how lower league management has been neglected as well. Game has lost its enjoyment, as a part from a few new gimmicks, and match engine updates, the AI of managers has been left untouched and the realism suffers in longish career games.

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[quote name='Major Raver']To much time has been wasted tinkering with the match engine, they need to work on the AI of the computer managers. There is a superb thread on here by DaveC, on how lower league management has been neglected as well. Game has lost its enjoyment, as a part from a few new gimmicks, and match engine updates, the AI of managers has been left untouched and the realism suffers in longish career games.[/QUOTE]

The match engine team do not work on other aspects of the game, so both could (and should imo) be worked on as the main focuses of FM13.

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They have also stated they are working on a new match engine altogether, so really this thread is pointless.

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I hope player numbers on the back of shirts will be included in FM13. This is such a simple task to implement but would be of great value, IMO.

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To be Frank about the FM series it needs to be given a kick up the backside.

Never bothered buying FM12 due to the fact nothing has really changed since 2010 version.

The time scale on releases now have been under 11 months and all we are seeing is minor cosmetic changes.

Match engine needs work that is a must.

The match commentary needs a massive revamp as word by word seems to be the same ole same ole.

Scouting needs to be improved on a huge scale.

Cut out all the BS in press conferences and match talks, really are a chore which rhythms with bore.

The game use to be fun but it's no longer the case, it's now not known for it's simplicity more the fact you have too many pointless sections in the game.

With regards to radical changes that's been just the one since 2009 and that's the 3D engine, every year has been the same with a little extra which isn't worth writing home about.

SI need to up the ante or it will be like all the other game titles with yearly release titles being all the same but with a number change in the title.

Rant over :p

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It says a lot that the only major change you've noticed is a cosmetic one ;)

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Adding and removing leagues after the game starts isnt a major change? :eek:

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That's editing which could have been created by a third party source and why would I want to mess round with the leagues?

Pointless and cosmetic.

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ME without doubt needs changing but for me, the tactics need completely starting from fresh.

I cannot stand the rigid set formations that the game allows.
You should be able to put players where you like on the pitch and ask them to make all sorts of run types and defending movements.
You should be able to get your star playmaker to 'come deep', 'play more to X' and so on...

The tactics are so out of date and I'm fed up with the game because of it...

Obviously, the ME and tactics are massively linked, so if you change one, surely you have to change the other?

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That shows a major misunderstanding of how things work, cynet.

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Ackter the yearly releases have not been radical enough or on a huge scale to think the game is going places when in fact it has been rather subdued.

Each release has been under 11 months which in terms for improvement there has been little difference in progress due to the limited time for the next cash cow release sale.

The difference between FM11 and 12 version is limited and hasn't really made great strides in being different.

Years ago there use to a 2 yearly release and the difference was major which then you don't mind coughing up the £30 for the game.

All I'm seeing is a title being milked to death on a limited time of development and the only justification for paying full price for a game with a few updates is adding or removing leagues, not ground breaking IMO.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']They have also stated they are working on a new match engine altogether, so really this thread is pointless.[/QUOTE]

Yeah thought PaulC said work was already underway?

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Under 11 months? This years game was not released 10 months after 11 was and as far as i remember the only time there was a 2 year gap was between Champ Man and Football Manager.

One thing tho, adding and removing leagues may be a small thing for you, for others its the single most important addition to the game for years and something the fan base was screaming out for. Its also probably one of the most successful and bug free additions to the game for a while.

What differences are you looking for between the releases?

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If they give me a kinda realistic chances/conversion ratio I'll be more than happy. They should also focus on the basics which they have failed miserably at, as well as a new tactics mechanic, because it's almost broken in its logic. A.I. should also be looked at because right now is really basic.

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I see two major new features in two years - DLR and add/remove leagues (UI is cosmetic, and team-talks are more cosmetic than anything). Two major new features in two years.

What's funny is that FM 2012 was advertised as a game that had "800 new features" - when it clearly doesn't, to a customer. 800 bugfixes maybe.

And FM 2011 was advertised as FM 2010 with "polish".

Are either of these really new games? Personally, I think it seems insulting to customers, and just highlights the fact that SI need competition. FM 2012 is barely a new game compared with FM 2010 and arguably could have just been two addons. Both DLR and add/remove leagues seem too small to be even released as DLC!

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Have you played FM12 X42bn6?[/QUOTE]“One does not need to have cancer to analyze its symptoms.”
― Dan Brown, Angels and Demons

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lol you guys,most of you dont even have fm12.1.1. How can you have a controversial opinion? you're just planning to buy fm13?ok then wait.
[SIZE=1]wtf[/SIZE]:)

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[quote name='avine']lol you guys,most of you dont even have fm12.1.1. [b]How can you have a controversial opinion?[/b] you're just planning to buy fm13?ok then wait.
[SIZE=1]wtf[/SIZE]:)[/QUOTE][quote name='x42bn6']“One does not need to have cancer to analyze its symptoms.”
― Dan Brown, Angels and Demons[/QUOTE]

Some people actually look at the game's feature list before purchasing. If it doesn't look tempting on the cover, then why purchase it?

Personally, I never got into FM 2010, and it's collecting dust at the moment. I found it far too tedious ("Continue Manager 2010") and at times too easy. Database updates don't really matter to me as I prefer regen-filled worlds with pseudo-real gameworlds. Neither FM 2011 nor FM 2012 looked that much different to me, so if I never got into FM 2010, I'm probably not going to get into either of these either, and I have to pay for it, too! No thanks.

If 24 months of development can only produce two new major features, then that just screams of "complacency". We criticise EA for repackaging its franchise, sticking on a few extras, sticking a new skin on the front and not fixing old bugs. Shouldn't that apply to SI as well?

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[quote name='x42bn6']“One does not need to have cancer to analyze its symptoms.”
― Dan Brown, Angels and Demons[/QUOTE]
Dan Brown is an idiotic author & has the writing style of a 15 year schoolboy.

The correct phrase should be "One does not need to have cancer to see its symptoms", to correctly analyse them one will need an understanding of the symptoms so although you can comment on what direction you feel FM13 or any other future version should take you are not in a position to offer an analysis of FM12.

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[quote name='Barside']Dan Brown is an idiotic author & has the righting style of a 15 year schoolboy.

The correct phrase should be "One does not need to have cancer to see its symptoms", to correctly analyse them one will need an understanding of the symptoms so although you can comment on what direction you feel FM13 or any other future version should take you are not in a position to offer an analysis of FM12.[/QUOTE]Analysis seeks to gain understanding. Everyone has to start somewhere, possibly from zero.

"Conclude" is probably a better phrase, where you need to apply outside understanding in order to baseline your analysis, gain context and perform testing. But I'm talking about the "spirit" of the quote, not the "letter".

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I personally feel that SI may have been stretching the fanbase's loyalty releasing full price yearly updates.

Did we not used to have a full price release with major additions , followed by a couple of cheaper yearly releases with minor updates ?

The ME is really beginning to show its age. Manager AI (especially when it comes to building and maintaining squads) ranges from average to poor. The tactics module is still pretty limited in scope , and missing some pretty obvious options. The transfer module needs a contract style overhaul ( may be linked to manager AI when it comes to squad management)

I still enjoy FM , I still pump more hours than I care to admit into my saves, but , I can't help that feel the length of development cycle coupled with the lack of any real competition is stunting the growth of the game.

The fan-boys that are willing to defend the game (as is) to the hilt need to realise that no series can rest on it's laurels. FM needs to continually evolve and improve , because eventually there WILL be a genuine competitor .

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Adding and removing leagues after the game starts isnt a major change? :eek:[/QUOTE]

But this has it flaws anyway. If the league isn't run originally then certain things dont happen in the league such as managers getting sacked in inactive leagues and players having proper stats for those seasons. Then you add a league 10 years on and in full detail and the same managers were at the same clubs for all them years and histories are all messed up. I personally dont even use the feature.... so apart from an improvement in the actual look of the match engine and fixing a few bugs from FM2011... im a bit confused to actually what all the staff at SI have spent the last 12 months doing.

I also think that they need to expand as a business, employ more staff and leave sega for a bigger name with better commercial value. The game has huge financial potential that isn't being exploited globally. For example my brother hadn't played the game for a few years and never seen the 3d match engine but when he saw me playing it he was instantly interested in buying it. Maybe if they actually advertised the game in their adverts instead of just talking about it then people might be more interested. People who havn't played the game for ages will be intrigued by seeing the new features actually advertised and will give it a go. Furthermore if they were to join a bigger company like EA or something, then expanding as a company will give us a much better game to play every year with huge improvements.

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[quote name='x42bn6']I see two major new features in two years - DLR and add/remove leagues (UI is cosmetic, and team-talks are more cosmetic than anything). Two major new features in two years.

What's funny is that FM 2012 was advertised as a game that had "800 new features" - when it clearly doesn't, to a customer. 800 bugfixes maybe.

And FM 2011 was advertised as FM 2010 with "polish".

Are either of these really new games? Personally, I think it seems insulting to customers, [B]and just highlights the fact that SI need competition[/B]. FM 2012 is barely a new game compared with FM 2010 and arguably could have just been two addons. Both DLR and add/remove leagues seem too small to be even released as DLC![/QUOTE]

agree 100%.. I think we all get carried away because it is such a good game and we all love it for what it is. However it hasn't moved forwards for a while. For example we all love the Premier League and would never stop watching it because its football... but thats not to say that we are happy with the way it is run, we play FM because everyone loves a football manager game and FM has the best one... but its become sloppy because it has no competion whatsoever so they know that we aren't going to stop loving football manager games so they know that even with minimum improvements they will make money.

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RE: Adding leagues during a save game ; I like many other was relatively excited about this feature ( It's one of those things you always thought would be nice to have) , but I have not used it once since implementation.

I do agree that FM12 would be a fantastic game for anyone that hasn't played for a few years or a first timer , I just feel the current method of updates offers limited value to those who buy the game every year.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']What basics have they failed miserably on?[/QUOTE]

Like it's gonna make a difference if we have [I]this [/I]conversation again.

Let's all hope that we can finally see some football in the ME that resembles a bit the real thing.

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OP's in luck SI have said they have pushed the current ME as far as it will go and FM13 will have a new one.
As for whether recent versions have offered enough new features, I think CM\FM has had very few releases which fundamentally altered the game and many more that built on last years game FM09 was a big leap forward followed by three refinements. Before that CM4 was a big step that was worked on until FM09. Newgen player generation templates, DLR, in game league addition are all bigger features then I can remember CM4 to FM08 introducing.

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In luck or out of luck... its taken them 4 years to get the bugs out of the current match engine. If this new match engine is better it could take even longer.

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ME, as far as I know, doesn't support few modern tactical stuff like pressing from multiple players at once (Barca style). It is also quite repetitive. Many goals looks the same, all free kicks from a player seem to be aimed at same corner of goal etc. And I don't think player role should be so much based on his position. Today there are so many false positions like false-winger, false-9 and so on. Position should be just a zone which player ought to occupy or sth flexible. Different instructions for playing with and without ball would be also welcomed. Just a brainstorm, sorry for mixing so many stuff :D.

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[quote name='sperlz']In luck or out of luck... its taken them 4 years to get the bugs out of the current match engine. If this new match engine is better it could take even longer.[/QUOTE]I was under the impression that the current ME was introduced on CM4 & has been evolving ever since.

Thankfully a lot of lessons have been learnt over the years & I'd be hopeful that if we do get to see a totally new ME for FM13 it will not be anywhere near as problematic as CM4.

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[quote name='cynet']Ackter the yearly releases have not been radical enough or on a huge scale to think the game is going places when in fact it has been rather subdued.

Each release has been under 11 months which in terms for improvement there has been little difference in progress due to the limited time for the next cash cow release sale.

The difference between FM11 and 12 version is limited and hasn't really made great strides in being different.

Years ago there use to a 2 yearly release and the difference was major which then you don't mind coughing up the £30 for the game.

All I'm seeing is a title being milked to death on a limited time of development and the only justification for paying full price for a game with a few updates is adding or removing leagues, not ground breaking IMO.[/QUOTE]

There has never been a "2 yearly release" in the entire series. The closest it's come is about 17-18 months when one of the games was delayed (like with CM4). Every year has seen an SI product on sale*

*with the exception being when CM4 was released - because of the delay, no game was released one year but [I]two[/I] games were released the next.

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i would rather there be focus on the tranfer side.
twice i have missed out on players because of thier wage demands.. only for them to go to clubs on lesser rages

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[quote name='Ackter']There has never been a "2 yearly release" in the entire series. The closest it's come is about 17-18 months when one of the games was delayed (like with CM4). Every year has seen an SI product on sale*

*with the exception being when CM4 was released - because of the delay, no game was released one year but [I]two[/I] games were released the next.[/QUOTE]

Don't use facts in a forum argument!

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I have hated the 3d engine for ages, never really used it, always used classic view when playing. Only use 3d for highlights.

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[quote name='omaroo']I have hated the 3d engine for ages, never really used it, always used classic view when playing. Only use 3d for highlights.[/QUOTE]

Before FM11, my previous FM was 08. I really struggled with the tactical side of the game and never really understood exactly what was going. Between the tactic creator and the 3d match engine with FM 11, I finally felt like I had a handle on what was going on in the match, partly because of the player roles and partly because of the 3d match engine. Its far more easy for me to identify a problem and tweak a players role then it was previously. But that's why they say "Different strokes for different people" and why SI has both the classic and the 3d available for users.

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I just want to see less reliance on pace and acceleration, yes those attributes are important IRL for some positions on the pitch, but on FM it's almost everything..

Why all the attacking duties imply a run with ball often for instance? The attacking midfielder, poacher? And i know that i can tweak those things manually but if i want to use the TC it seems to go against it's purpose.

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[quote name='Ackter']There has never been a "2 yearly release" in the entire series. The closest it's come is about 17-18 months when one of the games was delayed (like with CM4). Every year has seen an SI product on sale*

*with the exception being when CM4 was released - because of the delay, no game was released one year but [I]two[/I] games were released the next.[/QUOTE]

Correct , but it used to only be the major updates that received a full price release , with the title or 2 after releasing with minor updates and a 19.99 rrp.

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[quote name='treble_yell_:-)']Correct , but it used to only be the major updates that received a full price release , with the title or 2 after releasing with minor updates and a 19.99 rrp.[/QUOTE]

When?? There were never just updates released, it is always a new version each year.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']When?? There were never just updates released, it is always a new version each year.[/QUOTE]

Right at the very start they used to release "Season Updates".

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Manager_series#Championship_Manager_.2793_Data_Up-Date_Disks"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_Manager_series#Championship_Manager_.2793_Data_Up-Date_Disks

T[/URL]hey included more than just data updates though, which is what many people seem to remember happening for some reason.

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Christ, that is a long long time ago now. So they did it once from reading that, hardly the set plan SI used to follow.

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A few of the releases were released as "Season Updates" rather than 'new' games, and this has changed in a lot of people's memories to mean SI sold data updates only in between the major releases of CM2, 3 and 4. IIRC even the very original data update disc included other changes, but I could be wrong there.

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[quote][quote name='Ackter']There has never been a "2 yearly release" in the entire series. The closest it's come is about 17-18 months when one of the games was delayed (like with CM4). Every year has seen an SI product on sale*


*with the exception being when CM4 was released - because of the delay, no game was released one year but [I]two[/I] games were released the next.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='wwfan']Don't use facts in a forum argument![/QUOTE][/quote]
I also thought that we established there was a gap longer than 2 years from CM'93 to CM2, although I think the current game has its lineage from CM2 rather the Championship Manager so your point sort of still stands.

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[quote name='Barside']I also thought that we established there was a gap longer than 2 years from CM'93 to CM2, although I think the current game gains its lineage from CM2 rather the Championship Manager so your point sort of still stands.[/QUOTE]

Championship Manager was released in 1992. CM '93 then arrived, followed by CM Italia and a bunch of seasonal updates up until 1995. Then CM2 was released in September 1995. There's been a release every year except for 2002, but they made up for that by releasing two games in 2003.

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The overall ball playing should be tweaked and improved. Currently sometimes the goals seem too easy to score and sometimes players are dumb with no idea how to protect the ball and pass the ball around where they are too easy to be losing the ball. So the overall attacking movement and defensive formation/movement should be improved according to real life football.

1.The marking around the center area in front penalty box should be more tight and players with back to goal should be harder to dribble past defenders.

2. when players are with ball they should stops play and cut in more often. Currenly players often run with ball aimlessly/needlessly towards wings or byline while they should cut inside to evade the defender or stops the ball and confront the opponent trying to go past them using skills or body swaying around the 'channel' areas.

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