The Ball-Winning Midfielder - Winning Tackles & Trophies

[llama3]

I would assume the header is a few yards sideways to his midfield partner because from a goalkick the two CMs will be pretty much level rather than staggered.

Average positions show the DLP sits naturally further back than the BWM - even with the DLP on support and the BWM on defend

[mikcheck]

Cleon what about a player with high antecipation but poor positioning? How will he react to a situation?

I have a defensive midfielder who has awesome stats but lacks positioning, only 11.

[lucatonix]

Average positions show the DLP sits naturally further back than the BWM - even with the DLP on support and the BWM on defend

I'm not disputing that but surely, at a goalkick, they will be side by side not staggered since they will be marking their opposition CMs. Hence the header will be sideways rather than backwards (or only very slightly backwards).

[Cleon]

I would assume the header is a few yards sideways to his midfield partner because from a goalkick the two CMs will be pretty much level rather than staggered.

No they take up their normal mentality position, which makes them staggered.

Why would you be worried about backwards headers? Especially to a more creative player who you'd want to make those sort of passes.

To me the BWM in that scenario is making a winning header and playing it to a man in space who then would be able to make a play - being a player more able.

Because if they have fast strikers or an AMC, then he would be heading back into the position they would be occupying. It's a very dangerous situation.

Cleon what about a player with high antecipation but poor positioning? How will he react to a situation?

I have a defensive midfielder who has awesome stats but lacks positioning, only 11.

Well against fast breaks he won't be in a good enough position to make a tackle, he'll always be that half of yard behind. He knows exactly where the ball will be going but his starting position wasn't good enough to begin with.

I'm not disputing that but surely, at a goalkick, they will be side by side not staggered since they will be marking their opposition CMs. Hence the header will be sideways rather than backwards (or only very slightly backwards).

It's still quite a noticeable stagger though. And none of you seem to be taking into account the oppositions players positions.............

[LlamaZA]

No they take up their normal mentality position, which makes them staggered.

Well then that depends on mentality settings, since if they are both support or defend then they'll line-up together. Also given that most players would go BWM(d) and DLP(s) the BWM would have a lower mentality and sit further back.

Because if they have fast strikers or an AMC, then he would be heading back into the position they would be occupying. It's a very dangerous situation.

That's assuming a lot. I doubt the AMC or SC would be marking the DLP, I tend to find my DLP is always in space for those back passes.

And none of you seem to be taking into account the oppositions players positions.............

Not quite fair. My view is that a forward header from my BWM would put the ball into that 50/50 area where my opponent is likely to have extra players (since in general there's always an extra defender). So if you take into account opposition positions, the back/sideways pass is generally safer and more likely to secure possession.

[Cleon]

Well then that depends on mentality settings, since if they are both support or defend then they'll line-up together. Also given that most players would go BWM(d) and DLP(s) the BWM would have a lower mentality and sit further back.

That's assuming a lot. I doubt the AMC or SC would be marking the DLP, I tend to find my DLP is always in space for those back passes.

Not quite fair. My view is that a forward header from my BWM would put the ball into that 50/50 area where my opponent is likely to have extra players (since in general there's always an extra defender). So if you take into account opposition positions, the back/sideways pass is generally safer and more likely to secure possession.

I'll throw some examples up later and show you why I don't agree with you.

[mikcheck]

Well against fast breaks he won't be in a good enough position to make a tackle, he'll always be that half of yard behind. He knows exactly where the ball will be going but his starting position wasn't good enough to begin with.[/indent]

Understand. Thanks.

[Flohrinho]

I love Sven Bender as my BWM. He really is a beast defensively and can also make some good passes.

[DKB]

Positioning is the ability of a player to read a situation and position himself in the best possible position to deal with the unfolding events. Anticipation will help him in the first stage but in terms of his actual positioning, it comes down to this attribute. A higher rating will ensure the player takes up a better position. So for anyone who you expect to win tackles must have a high attribute for this, it's vital.

This is one of the reasons why people think their defender just stand there and allows the attacker past. It's not that he allows him past, its the fact he was never in a starting position to make the tackle.

@Cleon

would you go as far to say that position are "more" important for a central defender than heading or jumping

lets say two central defenders were nearly identical, but

A: had 11 i position - 16 i jumping and 16 i heading

B: had 16 i position - 13 i jumping and 13 i heading

would you then go for player B?

[Proffa]

I know it wasn't targeted to me but I think anyone who has played the FM series for a long time would choose player A.

[LlamaZA]

I'd say it depends.

But on first glance I'd take B. Mental stats are significant, smart players don't need great technicals to succeed. He gets himself in the right position to defend the header, force the opponent to go around or through and drawing the foul. He's the guy who has the right of way so to speak when competing because he knows best where to be.

But I guess it depends what type of player we're talking about and in context of the rest of the team.

[James9]

Llama could I ask what team instructions you are using with your Arsenal team. Also would it be better to play an attacking midfielder - attack or advance playmaker-attack behind the trequartista

[llama3]

James I chop and change roles and duties all the time. It is a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 - I play Balanced, Short Passing, Pressing, Drill Crosses, Zonal Marking and Roaming

I haven't found what works best yet, and I won't know until the new season thanks to van Persie's injury. The attacking midfield i play on a support role. Seems useful, but ratings aren't good.

[yonko]

@Cleon

would you go as far to say that position are "more" important for a central defender than heading or jumping

lets say two central defenders were nearly identical, but

A: had 11 i position - 16 i jumping and 16 i heading

B: had 16 i position - 13 i jumping and 13 i heading

would you then go for player B?

Player B is the better defender IMO.

I know it wasn't targeted to me but I think anyone who has played the FM series for a long time would choose player A.

Wrong. I've played every edition of FM and CM since 1994. I pick player B.

James I chop and change roles and duties all the time. It is a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 - I play Balanced, Short Passing, Pressing, Drill Crosses, Zonal Marking and Roaming

I haven't found what works best yet, and I won't know until the new season thanks to van Persie's injury. The attacking midfield i play on a support role. Seems useful, but ratings aren't good.

Attacking Midfielder on Attack with Moves into Channels wide play is very nice complement to a Trequartista.

[dz47]

@Cleon

would you go as far to say that position are "more" important for a central defender than heading or jumping

lets say two central defenders were nearly identical, but

A: had 11 i position - 16 i jumping and 16 i heading

B: had 16 i position - 13 i jumping and 13 i heading

would you then go for player B?

Player B without hesitation. 13 jumping and heading will enable him to compete in the air with all but the biggest TM types. Positioing of 16 will mean he can be relied upong to be in the right place defensively the vast majority of the time. That is extremely important as a CB, and will assist him in both 'on the ground' and 'in the air' defending. Player A would be strong in the air, but 16/16 is not excellent, so the best TM's will still give him a good challenge. PLus his low positioing will mean he will often not even be in the right spot to challenge for the header, which really negates any strengths he has in this area.

[Cleon]

Sorry I'm kind of away until Sunday so time around the forums is rare. But without a shadow of a doubt I'd pick player b every time. And the reasons why have been covered above.

[R. Hearn]

I've got a question about PPMs for BWMs...

Which ones would be suitable for them?

And also, both of the players I usually play in that role has the PPM 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible'. Is this wise?

[llama3]

\Well Song's allows him to dribble with the ball through the centre, but he chooses not to use it much. Tackling based PPM's may be useful, either diving in or staying on feet whichever your preference, they both have pro's and cons. Alternatively a plays simple passes PPM may be useful to retain the ball a bit more.

As long as the BWM has cover and does not expose his defence and midfield then getting forward is fine.

[SPDtrip]

I've got a question about PPMs for BWMs...

Which ones would be suitable for them?

And also, both of the players I usually play in that role has the PPM 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible'. Is this wise?

As is often the case with many of these questions in FM the answer is often, it depends.

If your BWM has a support duty I think it's OK and can even be advantageous but if he's on Defensive duty (and the CM next to him is on Support or Attack) then It could be trouble. As LLama explains right above if your BWM (with Forward PPM) doesn't have cover the opposition sooner or later will exploit the space behind him right after he goes flying forward.

If you play with one particularly against a good team just make sure you can compensate just in case.

[R. Hearn]

Well, I play a 4-1-2-1-2. My DMC is a DM (D), MCR is a BWM (D), while the MCL is a DLP (S). So, they somewhat limit my AMC who's a Trequartista. It gets worse when I do play Hamsik in the MCL slot, as he's got the same PPM, and both surge forward, crowding the opponent's box.

[llama3]

your central midfield sounds quite defensive there on first look i must say

[R. Hearn]

your central midfield sounds quite defensive there on first look i must say

Ah, I see. Any suggestions?

[yonko]

Well, I play a 4-1-2-1-2. My DMC is a DM (D), MCR is a BWM (D), while the MCL is a DLP (S). So, they somewhat limit my AMC who's a Trequartista. It gets worse when I do play Hamsik in the MCL slot, as he's got the same PPM, and both surge forward, crowding the opponent's box.

Ah, I see. Any suggestions?

How do they limit your Trequartista? What PPMs does he have? Can you use him in a different role?

[Kamil-S]

Ah, I see. Any suggestions?

So if I understood correctly your midfield diamond has no forward runs at all (rarely for DM, MCs and AMC). Your strikers are slightly isolated from rest of your team and your trequartista drops too deep to be real option for your DLP. Try BWM (S) instead of BWM (D) and AM (S) instead of TQ.

[R. Hearn]

Yes, that would be correct. Besides, three of my MCs have the 'Get forward whenever possible' PPM, so it didn't seem like it mattered. But, thanks for the suggestion, Kamil-S. I'll try that in my next match soon.

As for my Trequartista, it's Mesut Ozil, for most of my matches. Ganso fills in for some games.

[llama3]

Kamil's suggestions seem fair. Come back if they don't work.

[SnUrF]

Yes, that would be correct. Besides, three of my MCs have the 'Get forward whenever possible' PPM, so it didn't seem like it mattered. But, thanks for the suggestion, Kamil-S. I'll try that in my next match soon.

As for my Trequartista, it's Mesut Ozil, for most of my matches. Ganso fills in for some games.

Not sure, but doesn't the bold bit change the RFD from never to sometimes?

-SnUrF

[Kamil-S]

Not sure, but doesn't the bold bit change the RFD from never to sometimes?

-SnUrF

It's not that simple. Mentality slider/player's decision attribute/creative freedom determine when/how often player uses his PPM.

[R. Hearn]

Thanks for the suggestion, guys. It seems to be working well for me. The TQ to AM (s) switch seems to have made the bigger difference, as my BWM already get forward with the PPM. Played two matches so far since the advice. Beat Udinese 5-1 and then Novara 3-0. Will see how well it fairs against bigger teams.

[FanasdaBola]

How to get an almost perfect BWM?

Buy Rodney Strasser and Kristofer Haestad as his guardian (tutor).

[RTHerringbone]

Terrific thread this llama3 with some valuable input from various posters.

I've always irrationally steered clear of BWMs due to a preconceived idea that he just legs it about and gets caught out of position.

My current tactic has several central midfield slots so I may experiment with a BWM tonight to see how things go.

Currently use a CM (D) and DLP (S) behind an AM, AP and IF all on Attack (it is a Strikerless formation).

I'm considering dropping an AM line player back to the MC line, and that will allow me to deploy a BWM on Support.

EDIT - 4 of your 5 examples in Post #3 show 3 or more central midfielders. Why is this? Is there any credence to my lazy assumption that the BWM can be a bit of a liability unless set up with at least two other central players?

EDIT 2 - Actually, I quite like this idea. From left to right, my MC line would be DW (S), CM (S), DLP (D), BWM (S), W (A). The idea would be that the BWM is closing down to the side of the Winger who is advancing up field. He would replace the AM (A) in my AMC line.

The setup sounds pretty conservative, but this is because I only have a back three and am looking for the MC line to stifle the opposition centrally.

[llama3]

With regard to how many central midfielders I use with the BWM - I do actually like having a 3rd central midfielder when I use a BWM, as he needs a more defensively stable partner alongside him and this can limit movement from the midfield as the team transitions into attack. I would only use him in a pair if he was the support role alongside a MC(D) or a DLP(D) because of the space he sometimes leaves. But others may vouch that this is not necessary or true.