[FM12.2.2] • • • MiNiMaL_FuSS - FuSStidious V3 FINAL || FLAT 4-4-2 • • •

[FuSS]

Thanks Crags, looks as expected, through-balls in the centre of the final third causing the problems the majority of the time. Which means I'll need to look at defensive positioning, likely marking, d-line and offside trap.

[Schreiber]

Atm i'm trying some tweaks :

- crag's tweak on the two strikers + target man ticked

- playmaker ticked with the 2 MCs selected as playmakers + no roam from position and no hold the ball on the MCs

How is the striker tweak working for you?

[Hansah]

well, there are good killerballs going into their feet but i have still problems with my wingers loosing the ball while holding the ball too long under pressure

[drhay53]

It seems to me like the majority of the through ball problems come in the channels between the CD and the FB.

What tends to happen also is that the opposite CD will close down a dribbling player, then the other CD will simply stay in his zonal marking scheme, and never mark a player who is running through the vacated zone.

Sometimes this happens the other way around, where a player dribbling with the ball will simply run 30 yards with all defenders backpedalling and no one ever closing him down, presumably because he doesn't enter anyone's 'zone'.

What happens with the CD and possibly the fullbacks on man marking with a little less closing down? I really think the high closing down settings for the defenders are what is sucking them up out of position to cover through balls in the final third.

[FuSS]

It seems to me like the majority of the through ball problems come in the channels between the CD and the FB.

What tends to happen also is that the opposite CD will close down a dribbling player, then the other CD will simply stay in his zonal marking scheme, and never mark a player who is running through the vacated zone.

Sometimes this happens the other way around, where a player dribbling with the ball will simply run 30 yards with all defenders backpedalling and no one ever closing him down, presumably because he doesn't enter anyone's 'zone'.

What happens with the CD and possibly the fullbacks on man marking with a little less closing down? I really think the high closing down settings for the defenders are what is sucking them up out of position to cover through balls in the final third.

What you have to remember is that the match-engine has a lot of misleading names for things. FM does not have man-marking in the real world sense, man-marking is just a different kind of zonal marking in the match engine.

Man-marking in real life is actually being designated a man that you stick with, in FM man-marking is sticking with the man that enters your zone and following him.

Zonal marking in FM means sticking to your position and only intercepting a personal while they are in your zone.

In theory, man-marking should be best when the opponent only has a few forward, and zonal should be best when the opponent floods the box with players.

The difficulty is coming up with a balance to suit all occasions.

That said your diagnosis of the problem is apt, players are closing down too readily on any single player and not considering other players around them.

The key to this is actually the 'tight marking' option. Again this is a misleading label in-game. In real life tight marking mostly applies in set pieces and when a player such as a Suarez or Aguero plays with their back to...in real life tight marking is about getting close as possible to these guys to stop them turning and finding space. That's not what tight marking is in game. In game tight marking has more of a 'step up' effect...if you turn it on a player will instantly 'step-up' to any player entering his designated 'zone'.

I think your description is right, but I think it's the stepping-up affect of tight marking in game that's mostly causing it.

I'm think lowering the CB's closing down a tiny bit and switching off tight marking will improve the situation. Their current zonal marking setup is what makes then so good against bigger teams...it also makes them more vulnerable against smaller ones that through only 1 man forward.

[irabbit]

can use with 12.0.4 Fuss ?

[AlCapone]

Playing whit Underdog aginst bayern in CL they hit me on counter pretty god.

[drhay53]

What you have to remember is that the match-engine has a lot of misleading names for things. FM does not have man-marking in the real world sense, man-marking is just a different kind of zonal marking in the match engine.

Man-marking in real life is actually being designated a man that you stick with, in FM man-marking is sticking with the man that enters your zone and following him.

Zonal marking in FM means sticking to your position and only intercepting a personal while they are in your zone.

In theory, man-marking should be best when the opponent only has a few forward, and zonal should be best when the opponent floods the box with players.

The difficulty is coming up with a balance to suit all occasions.

That said your diagnosis of the problem is apt, players are closing down too readily on any single player and not considering other players around them.

The key to this is actually the 'tight marking' option. Again this is a misleading label in-game. In real life tight marking mostly applies in set pieces and when a player such as a Suarez or Aguero plays with their back to...in real life tight marking is about getting close as possible to these guys to stop them turning and finding space. That's not what tight marking is in game. In game tight marking has more of a 'step up' effect...if you turn it on a player will instantly 'step-up' to any player entering his designated 'zone'.

I think your description is right, but I think it's the stepping-up affect of tight marking in game that's mostly causing it.

I'm think lowering the CB's closing down a tiny bit and switching off tight marking will improve the situation. Their current zonal marking setup is what makes then so good against bigger teams...it also makes them more vulnerable against smaller ones that through only 1 man forward.

Thanks for a good response.

I'm worried that unticking tight marking will amplify the issue where defenders just ignore a player who dribbles 30 yards into a clear cut chance, because no one ever closed him down.

Expanding on what I said earlier, I think the biggest problem with this tactic is when other teams play high tempo.... when your team is in defense, they sit in their zones until a player gets the ball, then they sprint up and try to tight mark them. If they're one touch passing or if they immediately turn and run at your defender, you can get into big trouble.

That said, the tactic pours in alot of goals and doesn't concede a ton, it's just much more difficult to put together an unbreakable defense this year. Lot more 5-2 scorelines than 3-0 in years past. It's annoying and unrealistic and I hope SI fixes the ME, but I can live with it as long as I understand what's going on.

Now, I still get upset when some nobody blasts in a 35 yard strike with pinpoint accuracy, to scrape a 1-0 win against my team who created 8 CCC's and missed all of them....but that's not a tactical story

[FuSS]

Thanks for a good response.

I'm worried that unticking tight marking will amplify the issue where defenders just ignore a player who dribbles 30 yards into a clear cut chance, because no one ever closed him down.

Expanding on what I said earlier, I think the biggest problem with this tactic is when other teams play high tempo.... when your team is in defense, they sit in their zones until a player gets the ball, then they sprint up and try to tight mark them. If they're one touch passing or if they immediately turn and run at your defender, you can get into big trouble.

That said, the tactic pours in alot of goals and doesn't concede a ton, it's just much more difficult to put together an unbreakable defense this year. Lot more 5-2 scorelines than 3-0 in years past. It's annoying and unrealistic and I hope SI fixes the ME, but I can live with it as long as I understand what's going on.

Now, I still get upset when some nobody blasts in a 35 yard strike with pinpoint accuracy, to scrape a 1-0 win against my team who created 8 CCC's and missed all of them....but that's not a tactical story

I'm testing some marking changes at the moment, it's definitely much better against single strikers and troublesome formations. I've just got to make sure I haven't lost any power elsewhere as I've changed quite a few things to get the mid fielders to track back better as well (which should help cut out those runs from deep).

Will update tomorrow probably.

[Tha Real behanger]

I am using your tactic with Juventus in the first season, I am pretty glad with it. I have played 16 games won 14 and drew 2, while scoring 49 and getting 10 against.

[glynnbob]

gonna give this a go with my notts county side prem lge 2017 very weak team. just one question about team talks would you say aggresive expect a win against man u chelsea arsenal etc???

[Venatio UK]

gonna give this a go with my notts county side prem lge 2017 very weak team. just one question about team talks would you say aggresive expect a win against man u chelsea arsenal etc???

I'm in a similar position to you. Just switched to this tactic from Mr Hough. I'm Luton in the premiership, 2018/19 season.

It's working really well so far and I've been using the aggressive team talks suggested by Fuss. Highlights have been beating Man City and an away draw with Liverpool. Struggled a bit in the last couple of games, had to go to penalties with Bristol Rovers (League 1) in the league cup.

[serek]

This tactic enjoys strong opposition. I'm Legia, a polish team. In Euro Cup group phase I finished first with 3 wins and 3 draws, having Anderlecht, Stoke and Lazio in my group! My best result in the league is 7:1 win vs Wisla, current league champions.

Weak opposition? 5:1 vs LKS Lodz, 5:1 vs Lechia, 5:2 vs Widzew... so far I only lost to Slask who are actually a pretty good team (and currently placed second in league table, just behind me). In 18 league games so far I've scored 52 goals and conceded 14.

EDIT: Just beat Slask in rematch.

[CK ck x]

i just won the league with man u with your new tactic, lost the league cup to man city 2-0, got into the fa cup final and champions league final, my league stats finish W-31 D-5 L-2 scored 119 and concedeed 15, mr hough gave me his latest tactic to have a look at so played the fa cup and last 2 game of season with that. but your tactic is amazing one of the best i have used on any fm. cheers fuss

[Wes_Coulam]

Match stats from previous season.

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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Noticed that i conceded a high percentage of goals late in games i've know started to shut out games by stopping forward runs on wingers lowering mentality/tempo/def line & unticking offside trap! Which seems to be working very well, conceded 2 goals in 8 games now.

Also off topic what application do people use to upload screens imageshack is too much effort for someone as lazy as me!

[Mike Dodgson]

Is this a Classic style tactic or a Tactical Wizard style?

Any help appreciated.

[Wes_Coulam]

Is this a Classic style tactic or a Tactical Wizard style?

Any help appreciated.

Classic x x x x

[FuSS]

As ever, I'll try to answer everything.

I am using your tactic with Juventus in the first season, I am pretty glad with it. I have played 16 games won 14 and drew 2, while scoring 49 and getting 10 against.

Sounds good, not too many concedes, defence is plain hard to get right in FM12, but just invest in your fullbacks and you'll get it.

gonna give this a go with my notts county side prem lge 2017 very weak team. just one question about team talks would you say aggresive expect a win against man u chelsea arsenal etc???

No probably not, you'll annoy most of the team - I'd most likely skip to assertive/have faith player talks in said situation. Havn't played much lower league though, so it'll be down to you.

I'm in a similar position to you. Just switched to this tactic from Mr Hough. I'm Luton in the premiership, 2018/19 season.

It's working really well so far and I've been using the aggressive team talks suggested by Fuss. Highlights have been beating Man City and an away draw with Liverpool. Struggled a bit in the last couple of games, had to go to penalties with Bristol Rovers (League 1) in the league cup.

Complacency and motivation seem to be massive factors - remember to do individual talks outside of matches (ie talk to player), I find these help a lot and it's very easy to learn what's right to say quite quickly.

This tactic enjoys strong opposition. I'm Legia, a polish team. In Euro Cup group phase I finished first with 3 wins and 3 draws, having Anderlecht, Stoke and Lazio in my group! My best result in the league is 7:1 win vs Wisla, current league champions.

Weak opposition? 5:1 vs LKS Lodz, 5:1 vs Lechia, 5:2 vs Widzew... so far I only lost to Slask who are actually a pretty good team (and currently placed second in league table, just behind me). In 18 league games so far I've scored 52 goals and conceded 14.

EDIT: Just beat Slask in rematch.

Higher concedes to goals rate than I'd like to see (5:to:1 isn't bad though), I'm sure it'll tighten up as you gradually buy in a better defence, remember to be careful breaking up defensive partnerships, they take time to re-build.

i just won the league with man u with your new tactic, lost the league cup to man city 2-0, got into the fa cup final and champions league final, my league stats finish W-31 D-5 L-2 scored 119 and concedeed 15, mr hough gave me his latest tactic to have a look at so played the fa cup and last 2 game of season with that. but your tactic is amazing one of the best i have used on any fm. cheers fuss

I assume Man City used a single striker? I recommend switching the centre-backs to man marking BUT ONLY FOR SINGLE STRIKERS. Works for me if your willing to make a little change each match.

Great results though, 15 concedes in a season is remarkable with any team.

Noticed that i conceded a high percentage of goals late in games i've know started to shut out games by stopping forward runs on wingers lowering mentality/tempo/def line & unticking offside trap! Which seems to be working very well, conceded 2 goals in 8 games now.

Thanks for the stats, they are very similar to the other I've achieved - nearly all the concedes come from placed shots, nearly all the assists are passes, and nearly all are in the centre final third. This suggests central strikers and through balls are the issue. There's a case for a DMC, but I don't want to upset the balance or the formation - I may simply make one of the CM's more covering and wander less.

Thanks for the feedback about late goals, not something I'd spotted, but looking at my own stats there's definitely a pattern. It's a very physical and closing down tactic, so it makes sense that your players will struggle toward the end. I'll see what I can do on this subject.

Is this a Classic style tactic or a Tactical Wizard style?

Any help appreciated.

Classic x x x x

Thanks Wes.

[Aciel]

Fuss, when you upload the updated tactic? Will it work with Volverhampton?

[cragswfc]

You've got some questions on your team talk thread mate.

[Aciel]

My second question was about the new tactics, which Fuss wrote yesterday:

Will update tomorrow probably.

PS: Sorry for my English.

[drhay53]

4 games into my second season with Stoke, with a mid-table squad.... Drew 1-1 away to Newcastle, drew 0-0 at home to Man Utd, Drew 2-2 away to blackpool, and won 2-1 away at QPR.

Every conceded goal so far was a through ball to a player who cut in from a wide position. The through ball came through the channel and the player cut in to run onto it behind my defense.

My defenders are fairly solid, not world class, but it's still annoying. I am creating a ton of chances but not putting them away. My attackers are generally pretty low on finishing except for Crouch, so I don't think this is an issue with the tactic.

[Venatio UK]

[amsterdam019]

Good Job Fuss

Media 20th ?

Salary (Hinckley too Rich)

Table

2015/16

[drhay53]

FuSS: There may be something to creating a late game version of your tactic to hold a lead. I have tried reducing winger runs, reducing mentality, increasing tempo slightly (under the assumption that the opponent will try to close me down more), increasing time wasting, and dropping the defensive line a few clicks. This was suggested above by another poster, and I haven't conceded any late goals in 5 matches.

Finish the main tactic first, then if you get a chance, put together a more defensive minded version? I think that's a great idea for FM12 tactic makers in general.

[Wes_Coulam]

Second season as Grimsby using this tactic & the results are absolutely phenomenal I feel that im seeing out the end of games by just a few minor tweaks (although let it be said that two teams have got past me whilst I flicked over to the see game out version but its to be expected i don't have the best squad) Anyway the picture below is worth a thousands words! This is just a snippet of my second season so far only in January but I think I'll be winning two leagues on the bounce!

Join Loreaon

[cragswfc]

Second season as Grimsby using this tactic & the results are absolutely phenomenal I feel that im seeing out the end of games by just a few minor tweaks (although let it be said that two teams have got past me whilst I flicked over to the see game out version but its to be expected i don't have the best squad) Anyway the picture below is worth a thousands words! This is just a snippet of my second season so far only in January but I think I'll be winning two leagues on the bounce!

Join Loreaon

Wes what tweaks you done?

[Wes_Coulam]

Wes what tweaks you done?

Notin major and it varies from game to game, but at about 60-75 mins (if im controlling I'll leave it to 75 mins if I think im going to concede I'll do it on 60 mins) but basically this (it does vary as i don't have a set tactic i just tone down stuff)

Forward runs on ML/MR to Mixed

Mentality Down two/three notches

Width down to narrow

closing down - down two notches

Time wasting into often about 16 (more or less depending on how your game is going)

Defensive line down 3 notches

Offside unticked

Counter Attack(If im only winning by one it will be ticked if i have a two goal advantage it is unticked)

If it works well which it was for me in the beginning of the season (I've stopped trying to see out games now im 18 points clear because im lazy) you should get something like this:-

[Wes_Coulam]

Just tried out these settings when winning 1-0 wanted to close game down but still be available to sneak a goal so I had counter attack ticked as my goal advantage was less than 2 went on to win 2 - 0

Tweaked again against preston i was 2-0 up wanted to see game out left counter on as it's a two leg cup game and won 3-0 scored one & saw game out

[cragswfc]

Notin major and it varies from game to game, but at about 60-75 mins (if im controlling I'll leave it to 75 mins if I think im going to concede I'll do it on 60 mins) but basically this (it does vary as i don't have a set tactic i just tone down stuff)

Forward runs on ML/MR to Mixed

Mentality Down two/three notches

Width down to narrow

closing down - down two notches

Time wasting into often about 16 (more or less depending on how your game is going)

Defensive line down 3 notches

Offside unticked

Counter Attack(If im only winning by one it will be ticked if i have a two goal advantage it is unticked)

If it works well which it was for me in the beginning of the season (I've stopped trying to see out games now im 18 points clear because im lazy) you should get something like this:-

Just tried out these settings when winning 1-0 wanted to close game down but still be available to sneak a goal so I had counter attack ticked as my goal advantage was less than 2 went on to win 2 - 0

Thanks, Been try it working good hope I ant spoke to soon

My Twitter

@Cragswfc

[Wes_Coulam]

Thanks, Been try it working good hope I ant spoke to soon

Good good hope it holds out for you! That's my FM done for tonight i'll be back again tomoz.

[the_russian]

hey Fuss will you upload the tactic tonite?

[Aciel]

I also look forward to the new version for Wolverhampton too. The present is good, but wasted too many chances on goal.

[serek]

Seems to need at least 15 Stamina for MCs. Mine have 10-12 and are at 50-60% fitness after the game :F

[FuSS]

I've taken a step back from releasing an update, there isn't any need for a gut reaction.

Just looking at the responses the the screen shots people are putting up, for the vast majority of you the defence is okay (not great, but certainly not bad), there's quite a few posts with people conceding only 10-15 goals in a season now, which is phenomenal!

There are a couple of issues that need to be examined, but the tactic works well as it is right now. So I'll take my time and play a bit over the weekend and see what's what with some serious long term testing.

[FuSS]

Seems to need at least 15 Stamina for MCs. Mine have 10-12 and are at 50-60% fitness after the game :F

You'll notice in the OP and in all my tactics I always always always suggest that physical stats are overrated and extremely important in FM12, that includes stamina.

I'd take somebody with brilliant physicals over somebody with a much higher CA and better technical skills any day! And for the love of god don't listen to the ratings on crap like FMRTE, it's a god awful system and whoever invented it needs a kick in the head.

[the_russian]

I've taken a step back from releasing an update, there isn't any need for a gut reaction.

Just looking at the responses the the screen shots people are putting up, for the vast majority of you the defence is okay (not great, but certainly not bad), there's quite a few posts with people conceding only 10-15 goals in a season now, which is phenomenal!

There are a couple of issues that need to be examined, but the tactic works well as it is right now. So I'll take my time and play a bit over the weekend and see what's what with some serious long term testing.

which tweaks are in your opinion useful to cope with a single striker and wingers?

[serek]

You'll notice in the OP and in all my tactics I always always always suggest that physical stats are overrated and extremely important in FM12, that includes stamina.

I'd take somebody with brilliant physicals over somebody with a much higher CA and better technical skills any day! And for the love of god don't listen to the ratings on crap like FMRTE, it's a god awful system and whoever invented it needs a kick in the head.

Out of curiosity.. for every position?

[FuSS]

Out of curiosity.. for every position?

Within reason, yes. By which I mean physical stats are massively overpowered but of course you need decent necessary stats elsewhere too.

[serek]

Aight.

Anyway I finished season winning the league and scoring 95 goals. I'm unhappy, I wanted 100! In Euro Cup, I won my group, then beat Spartak Moscow in first knockout phase. After that I lost to eventual finalists, PSG, but I don't really mind considering that my whole team is worth about as much as 1/3 of Pastore. Looking good for season 2.

My top goalscorer was right striker Nacho Novo who scored 52 goals in all competitions.

[Gee_Simpson]

Within reason, yes. By which I mean physical stats are massively overpowered but of course you need decent necessary stats elsewhere too.

I'm surprised you think that, FuSS. Sure, for certain formations etc. A fast CB or fast ST would work better than a slow one but I regard Mentals as the most important attributes in FM.

[serek]

Gee, if if was like that then the best players in the game would be old farts, and that is simply not the case.

[swedishchef_uk]

How are the wingers performing? Would really like a useful winger tactic - but most of mine now use AMR/L, so will need a big reshuffle if I use this version. Are they getting many goals and telling crosses? Cheers

[Wes_Coulam]

Just secured promotion from league 2 with 10 games to spare!

This is the best tactic i have ever used! Not sure whether to holiday my remaining games or try and be the Grimsby Unbeatables........

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Unbeaten dream is now over lost my next game against Northampton got the first half team talk wrong went 1-0 down, got the second half spot on got my players fired up we tried and tried to blow down the Northampton house of defence but just didn't have enough. First Loss in 37 League games Cant complain really just wish i nailed my first half team talk. Still not bad for a team media predicted 20 something. Full season report will follow as usual

Re-Edit: Won the league with 8 games to go but lost in the JPT Final yet again a poor first half team talk cost me a game shouldn't of followed my Ass man on this one! Gutted.

[the_russian]

Just secured promotion from league 2 with 10 games to spare!

This is the best tactic i have ever used! Not sure whether to holiday my remaining games or try and be the Grimsby Unbeatables........

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Unbeaten dream is now over lost my next game against Northampton got the first half team talk wrong went 1-0 down, got the second half spot on got my players fired up we tried and tried to blow down the Northampton house of defence but just didn't have enough. First Loss in 37 League games Cant complain really just wish i nailed my first half team talk. Still not bad for a team media predicted 20 something. Full season report will follow as usual

Re-Edit: Won the league with 8 games to go but lost in the JPT Final yet again a poor first half team talk cost me a game shouldn't of followed my Ass man on this one! Gutted.

hey mate what kind of team talks are u using? do u still use your tweaks after 75 mins ?

[FuSS]

I'm surprised you think that, FuSS. Sure, for certain formations etc. A fast CB or fast ST would work better than a slow one but I regard Mentals as the most important attributes in FM.

As long as your picking your own players and aiming for the stats to do the job you want then it's great in my book.

My problem is people that use FM Scout and FMRTE to pick a player, and then insist that player is great because he has a high CA and a high rating. Where do they think those player ratings come from? They come from an indivudal summarising what he thinks is typically important for a player of that position....not from what you need from a player of that position. Hence I'm also not a fan of templates, different teams need injections of different things to keep them ticking.

Wolves for example are desperately short on pace up-front, so they need a fast striker, that's not necessarily the same as a highly rated striker.

[FuSS]

I've been looking at hough's new tacit - we usually chat over ideas before releases with each other anyway. I really like his loose marking / high-line technique and will look at integrating this into a new release shortly as I feel it's a great way to combat the few defensive issues we've seen. I'll begin testing immediately, and there may be an update this weekend after all

[Big H]

Fuss (or anybody) have you tried pushing the ML & MR to AML & AMR and has it had any effect on the tactic? I really want to use this tactic, but my wide players are all Attacking ones.

Thanks

[drhay53]

I have not liked the defense in Hough's tactic, TBH. Test it extensively before implementing anything like it, I think overall your defense is actually better.

[Wes_Coulam]

hey mate what kind of team talks are u using? do u still use your tweaks after 75 mins ?

Beginning Of Game - I look at what my Ass man saids if he saids we are favourite i go Aggressive we should win

If we are not favourite i let my ass man take the talk then click on each defender/midfielder/attackers and go passionate i have faith

Half Time - If winning by 2 Calm or cautious (calm if your favourite/cautious if they are) well done but you could do better

If winning any less by 2 Aggressive top option

Full Time - If won passionate top option

If lost or drew aggressive top option

Note: If the opponent is a massive favourite you risk upsetting your players im talking massive favourites you can get away with it in league one playing the top teams and your newly promoted.

If you not getting a response don't be shy to go goalkeeper/defender/midfielder/attacking passionate and top option.

Yes im still tweaking after 60/75 minutes it's really stopped those late goals (ill show screenies soon) i only conceded 39 in 46 with a newly promoted team which i think is good plus my Assman took charge of the last 8 games and conceded 12 goals because he is a fool lucky he is Paul groves and i will not sack him.