Neil Brock

Football Manager 12.1.1 update *OFFICIAL* Feedback Thread

1,369 posts in this topic

[quote name='milnerpoint']Every tiny increase changes the way the attribute will be used in the ME, even 0.1 of a change makes a difference when it comes to the ME. If you click on the attribute it will take you to a graph and you can see yourself what the increase is.[/QUOTE]

How is a 0.1 increase/descrease in crossing going to effect the ME? How can someone be 0.1 better/worse at a certain atrribute and how could it be transformed into the ME performance? I personally think if this is the case then it needs to be more warranted and detailed to physcially show this, rather than not.

And with regards to the graph, i didn't know that, so thanks mate.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Every tiny increase changes the way the attribute will be used in the ME, even 0.1 of a change makes a difference when it comes to the ME. If you click on the attribute it will take you to a graph and you can see yourself what the increase is.[/QUOTE]

The point is that the changes are too minor to warrant the arrows. There are too many arrows as a result and it becomes impossible to keep track of attribute progression. The scale is 20 so I want to see attribute changes on that particular scale highlighted. If SI think the 20 point scale is not enough then they should just change it. What they have done with the arrows is neither here nor there and it doesn't help the user in any way.

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[quote name='Reccy']How is a 0.1 increase/descrease in crossing going to effect the ME? How can someone be 0.1 better/worse at a certain atrribute and how could it be transformed into the ME performance? I personally think if this is the case then it needs to be more warranted and detailed to physcially show this, rather than not.

And with regards to the graph, i didn't know that, so thanks mate.[/QUOTE]

It could be as little as 1 cross in 100 is of a better quality, i obviously dont know exactly how the ME is calculated, but any increase will improve your player and like i say it could be 1 pass in a hundred or 1 cross in a hundred is better, which in turn could lead to a goal that wouldnt have happened without the increase. SI dont have the attributes increasing for no reason, any tiny change effects the ME.

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[QUOTE=Äktsjon Männ;7465212]The point is that the changes are too minor to warrant the arrows. There are too many arrows as a result and it becomes impossible to keep track of attribute progression. The scale is 20 so I want to see attribute changes on that particular scale highlighted. If SI think the 20 point scale is not enough then they should just change it. What they have done with the arrows is neither here nor there and it doesn't help the user in any way.[/QUOTE]

Its very easy to keep track of any progression using the graph. I far preferr the new way, its much easier to keep on top of poor trainers and catch things early, or to see when a player is a bit burnt out and not training so well, for me the change is fantastic, i need to use the graph less because i can keep an eye out on the attribute page much better.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Its very easy to keep track of any progression using the graph. I far preferr the new way, its much easier to keep on top of poor trainers and catch things early, or to see when a player is a bit burnt out and not training so well, for me the change is fantastic, i need to use the graph less because i can keep an eye out on the attribute page much better.[/QUOTE]

'Show attribute changes' is not a function for showing short term training progress. It there to show attribute changes. It doesn't now. For me this is absolutely useless. Training progress has to be shown on the training page, that's what it's for.

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Attribute changes are hugely tied into training progress.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Attribute changes are hugely tied into training progress.[/QUOTE]

No sh*t Sherlock. Doesn't mean it's necessary to make a feature that used to show attribute changes do something different i.e track short term training performance. If I was interested in training performance there were ways to track that before 12.1 (the attribute graph, training page, etc). There is no easy way to track attribute changes on the 20 point scale now. That's the point.

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Okay, please bear with me on this one.... I've played FM for years but never used a 'Patch' or 'Update' I've always just taken the game for what it is....

Could somebody please help me with my queries below...

Is a 'Patch' or a 'Thread' the same thing?

Where do I find, download and apply a patch or thread to my game?

If I download the latest patch or thread will that then include updates and data from previous patches released since the original game but before the latest path or thread?

If I add a patch/thread to my 'save-game' will players then move automatically in-line with IRL transfers?

Thanks for your help with this.

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This now gives you a more detailed instant view of how your players are progressing, i really dont see the problem, if you dont want to see the arrows turn them off, you can still check progression through the other ways you mentioned with the arrows off. Its just something a bit new people have to get used too, hopefully it stays this way for future version.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']This now gives you a more detailed instant view of how your players are progressing, i really dont see the problem, if you dont want to see the arrows turn them off, you can still check progression through the other ways you mentioned with the arrows off. Its just something a bit new people have to get used too, hopefully it stays this way for future version.[/QUOTE]

Where exactly have I said that I don't want to see arrows? I want them to highlight attribute changes just like they used to instead of doing something they're not at all supposed to do. There are no alternative ways to see attribute changes.

It's not something that I should have to get used to, it's something that should be made optional or improved (couple of good suggestions on how are being discussed [URL="http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/294443-Surely-I-can-t-be-the-only-one-who..."]here[/URL]).

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Who says they are not suppose to do what they do now? The arrows were always there to indicate attribute changes, they now do it to a more detailed level than they did before, they are not doing anything they shouldnt be.
You can use the graph to easily see attribute changes, click on any attribute and it will bring up the graph, go to the view tab top right and it will zoom in and you can see exactly what has changed and by how much.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Who says they are not suppose to do what they do now? The arrows were always there to indicate attribute changes, they now do it to a more detailed level than they did before, they are not doing anything they shouldnt be.
You can use the graph to easily see attribute changes, click on any attribute and it will bring up the graph, go to the view tab top right and it will zoom in and you can see exactly what has changed and by how much.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, because it's really easy to manually click each and every attribute instead of, you know, seeing an arrow beside the attribute to indicate a change. Is it really so hard for you to understand that some players actually want to track attribute changes [B]on the 20 point scale[/B], the one that's used everywhere in the game? There are other ways to track training performance, easily, in the places where it's logical to look for it i.e the training page.

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I'm done going over and over this, we're clogging up the thread. The arrows show attribute changes, now more detailed than before, get used to it.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']I'm done going over and over this, we're clogging up the thread. The arrows show attribute changes, now more detailed than before, get used to it.[/QUOTE]

Get used to what? That a feature that used to work before now does something it's not meant to do - purely judging on it's very description? If an attribute was 15 before and is 15 now it hasn't changed. Therefore the arrows do not properly describe attribute changes. I don't want detail that ends up in every player having an arrow beside pretty much every attribute or none at all - that's the end result of this change.

Again, I'm not even saying the new style system must be removed. But there should be an option to go back to the old way. Or at least use a different set of arrows for the minimal changes so one could still tell when the attribute has gone up or down.

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Sorry did you design the feature, am i missing something here? You say its doing something its not suppose to do, even tho SI devs have explained to you its doing exactly what its described to do. Attributes dont, and have never gone from 13-14 for example, they have always gone 13.1, 13.2, 13.3 ect.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Sorry did you design the feature, am i missing something here? You say its doing something its not suppose to do, even tho SI devs have explained to you its doing exactly what its described to do. Attributes dont, and have never gone from 13-14 for example, they have always gone 13.1, 13.2, 13.3 ect.[/QUOTE]

The attributes are shown in the game as 1-20, not 1.0-20.0. If that's not enough they should change it. In my opinion though the 20 point scale is enough. Again 15 to 15 is not a change on that scale, even if something has changed 'under the bonnet'. I'm not sure what youre arguing about really.

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Attributes for as long as i can remember have been worked out on a 1-100 scale, not 1-20, nothing has changed under the bonnet in this respect. Its just we are giving a 1-20 scale on the attributes screen.

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Well the point is, attributes are working out on a 1-100 scale, the arrows show us progression on a 1-100 scale, have you considered that maybe the arrows didnt work properly before now?

Anyway like i said a few posts back, we're clogging up this feedback thread, feel free to PM me if you want to carry on discussing it :)

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There is a simple way to look at the arrows displayed on the player profile page.

Treat them as a quick visual reference for the general effectiveness of your training regimes, green arrows indicate that your training is having a positive effect & red means you are retarding a players development, from there you can opt to take a closer look at the players development via there training page to see precisely what is going on.

As with many areas of FM the first screen you see does not & IMHO should not give the full picture as there is too much information to successfully convey on just one screen, it's all about the detail & SI have helpfully provided a staggered format to how information is fed to the player.

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An "arrow" usually represents something that has "changed" (if it's not a button), so if nothing appears to have changed to the user, there should not be an "arrow".

The 1-100 backend is relatively meaningless - users aren't supposed to know it's 1-100 behind the scenes. The player screen is supposed to act as an interface that encapsulates all that logic behind the scenes. One day it could be 1-1000 behind the scenes, or it might turn into decimal numbers such as 50.42. We shouldn't need to care.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Well the point is, attributes are working out on a 1-100 scale, the arrows show us progression on a 1-100 scale, have you considered that maybe the arrows didnt work properly before now? [/QUOTE]

No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.

[QUOTE][COLOR=#333333]Anyway like i said a few posts back, we're clogging up this feedback thread, feel free to PM me if you want to carry on discussing it [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

This is feedback so I don't see how it's clogging up the thread. Plus there's nothing here to be discussed privately.

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[QUOTE=Äktsjon Männ;7465507]No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.[/QUOTE]
I didn't think there had been any change in how these arrows work compared to recent FM's, I may have missed a post confirming a change but I always thought that changes to the underlying 0-100 attribute range were represented with arrows as they are on FM12.

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You can estimate the 'finer detail' of the attributes by looking on any player's Training screen graphs, fwiw.

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[QUOTE=Äktsjon Männ;7465507]No. What I would perhaps consider is that the scale shown ingame is too narrow, but I don't think it is. The arrows should be relevant to the scale shown in the game just like they always have been up until now.
[/QUOTE]

The game uses both the 1-20 scale and the 1-100 scale depending on what screen your looking at.

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[quote name='x42bn6']An "arrow" usually represents something that has "changed" (if it's not a button), so if nothing appears to have changed to the user, there should not be an "arrow".

The 1-100 backend is relatively meaningless - users aren't supposed to know it's 1-100 behind the scenes. The player screen is supposed to act as an interface that encapsulates all that logic behind the scenes. One day it could be 1-1000 behind the scenes, or it might turn into decimal numbers such as 50.42. We shouldn't need to care.[/QUOTE]

You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.[/QUOTE]

How? The graph only represents a trend. There are no values assigned to it (actually there are, values from 1-20). You can just as well see it as a 1-100000 scale. The 1-100 scale is not visible in the game at all. It is so because SI have decided, at some point, that a 1 point change on a 100 point scale is not important enough to be represented in a player profile. The small increment changes within an attribute (1-20) have always been shown as a measure to describe short term training performance.

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Now I'm confused. Which of the two come into play for Match Engine? the 1-20? or 1-100?

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[quote name='grade']Now I'm confused. Which of the two come into play for Match Engine? the 1-20? or 1-100?[/QUOTE]

Which is a good question because it's not exactly been made clear. PaulC posted above that the attributes are 'stored' on a scale of 1-100, but which scale does the ME see in it's calculations?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']You can easily see its a 1-100 scale when you look at the training graph.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't it show 1-20 down the side? If not, there's a mismatch between that graph and the player's profile.

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[quote name='x42bn6']Doesn't it show 1-20 down the side? If not, there's a mismatch between that graph and the player's profile.[/QUOTE]

There are 5 points between 14 and 15, not 1. If the scale is 1-100 I mean. Looking at it, that is quite obvious isn't it?

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[quote name='BiggusD']There are 5 points between 14 and 15, not 1. If the scale is 1-100 I mean. Looking at it, that is quite obvious isn't it?[/QUOTE]

No it's not, unless you know that it's a 1-100 scale underneath. It looks like this:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/EIyNb.jpg[/IMG]

The difference between 14 and 15 is not divided into 5 extra segments. There is no way of knowing this is a 1-100 scale unless you know it because you've been told so by the developers. Regardless, this is not really relevant either.

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The ME sees what is stored - 1 to 100.

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I think everyone would be happy if there was just consistency between the screens. If 1-100 is important, used throughout the game, and worth showing on the training screen, it should be either shown everywhere by default, or an option to have 1-20 shown everywhere, including the training arrows.

It is a bit odd that 1-100 is used in game, but that all player attributes are entered in the database in a 1-20 format by researchers though?

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They ate stored 1-100 as its easier to have a realistic progression of attributes that way through a player's career. However we think 1-20 makes more sense from a research point of view.

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[quote name='PaulC']They ate stored 1-100 as its easier to have a realistic progression of attributes that way through a player's career. However we think 1-20 makes more sense from a research point of view.[/QUOTE]
I would actually say that 1-20 makes more sense from a playing perspective as it (very) artificially adds to the realism.

Using a 1-100 display reference is too finite & would remove an aspect of vagueness that currently exists, one 15 rating will be different to another 15 rating but if the 1-100 was displayed we'd know that one was a 71 & the other was a 77 making it easier to ensure you had the very best players.

On this issues ignorance (1-100 rating) is bliss & change is a bad thing.

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This isn't a major issue but...

[URL="http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5752/95333411.png"]Italian Manager in charge of Italy is offered the Mexico job?
[/URL]
Seems a bit unrealistic to me.

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So my feelings after the patch... The game definetly lost the fun factor. It is frustreting to see, how a world class striker like Mario Gomez is shooting 15 goals per season, when before the patch he shoot 30 goals. Yah, and don`t tell me about the motivation bug... Because you can`t tell me that the game is so horribely playable because SI have changed something in the process of motivating players. Second when I see how my players are playing when the ME kicks in in a match... I play Fc Bayern in FM12 but the style whitch i see when ME kicks in is horrible, passes are inaccurate, the players are shooting each other on, the goalies seem sometimes unbeatable, freekicks are bad (i`m thinking sometimes, why the hell do we need freekicks in the game when they are awfull simulated, 3 goals from freekicks last season... SI really??) and one more. I`ve got planty times a situation when the opponent team is scoring a goal against me and the game is saying that "That his first goal this season". This happens a lot of times. I read some posts on this topic and I see a lot of players are not happy with the current patch. SI is saying that they wanted to make the game more chellenging... Yeah, ok I can understand that, but it looks like that most of the players don`t want to be frustrated about the FM, they want to have fun. SO SI i would say that the 12.1.1 patch is to 80% an owngoal. Let make the next patch (goal) count :)
PS. Sorry for my bad english.

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The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
they just miss too much..

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[quote name='RDSkillz']The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
[B]they just miss too much...[/B][/QUOTE]

So true :(

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[quote name='VonBlade']There is still an [U]insane amount of "off the woodwork[/U]" stuff in an underhanded attempt to keep the scoring down to a "realistic" level. Which would be okay except the game then chastises you for not winning by as large a margin as you ought.[/QUOTE]

yeah i 'm with you mate , this is annoying and so unrealistic number of woodwork and crossbar hope si fix that in next patch

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[quote name='PaulC']Grep my best advice to you is just try it for yourself.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to be a broken record, but this is not really sound advice. Owing to SI's manner of operating patches, if you 'try', you are stuck and can't go back. Updating is less of a 'try' and more of a gamble, an irreversible commitment. I've never understood why it is deemed unacceptable to 'downdate', or revert to a previous version if a customer is not satisfied after 'trying' and update.

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I have to say I think this alteration in the motivation levels of players and the complete randomness of team talks has killed FM12 for me. I was doing ok before the last patch, and had a common sense system of how to handle team talks (try not to be erratic and swing from one mood to another, try to be positive but let the players know if they were underperforming) but it seems completely random now. I rarely get any player being positive (green indicator) in team talks, and so many players just switch off irrespective of what you say to them. One example was a big home win for my Liverpool side against a Fulham side who were battling for the title with me. We won 4-1 and I told them it was a very good performance and still nobody reacted at all to that full time teamtalk. Not one single player showed they were pleased to have beaten a title rival - what?

I feel like the last patch has just taken away any common sense approach and I now feel like I am randomly trying things in the vain hope I do the right thing. I have tried managing teams from lower league, top leagues, using automatic rep, international footballer rep, but there is no feel that I am actually in control of what is happening and no matter what I try nothing gives the same reaction twice. Might as well use a bingo caller to randomly shout out my teamtalks!

Back to FM10 for me I think.

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Jep I am sure they were happy with the win. Perhaps you telling them well done had no real bearing on their mood as a result?

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[quote name='jep']I have to say I think this alteration in the motivation levels of players and the complete randomness of team talks has killed FM12 for me. I was doing ok before the last patch, and had a common sense system of how to handle team talks (try not to be erratic and swing from one mood to another, try to be positive but let the players know if they were underperforming) but it seems completely random now. I rarely get any player being positive (green indicator) in team talks, and so many players just switch off irrespective of what you say to them. One example was a big home win for my Liverpool side against a Fulham side who were battling for the title with me. We won 4-1 and I told them it was a very good performance and still nobody reacted at all to that full time teamtalk. Not one single player showed they were pleased to have beaten a title rival - what?

I feel like the last patch has just taken away any common sense approach and I now feel like I am randomly trying things in the vain hope I do the right thing. I have tried managing teams from lower league, top leagues, using automatic rep, international footballer rep, but there is no feel that I am actually in control of what is happening and no matter what I try nothing gives the same reaction twice. Might as well use a bingo caller to randomly shout out my teamtalks!

Back to FM10 for me I think.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it is the team talks as such that has changed, but their attitude to their manager. I have continental reputation at Bradford in PL, while the club and the players are barely National, and they adore me there. In Roma, having barely National reputation in a club that is surely Continental, I experience the same thing as you. I got Andorra promoted to Liga Adelante and they all adore me there, while after only ten league games with Granada they are "meeeh" towards me.

What I choose as team talk doesn't seem to have any bearing on anything unless the players adore me. I think that the British idea of reputation and inherited status is shining through too much in 12.1.1, other cultures don't have the same attitude towards social rank. I wonder how Germans think about teenagers talking back to their boss and not following orders...

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I wouldn't mind a "playing nervously" epidemic running through my squad every second match so much if it didn't render them unable to make a simple five yard pass.

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[quote name='RDSkillz']The one on one chance of striker vs keeper made me stop playing until the next patch comes.. (and I doubt that it will be fixed)
they just miss too much..[/QUOTE]

I'm with you, they just hit the majority of shots onto the woodwork to keep scores down.

I hope its fixed in the next patch and I'm really missing FM.

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[quote name='stevemc']I'm with you, they just hit the majority of shots onto the woodwork to keep scores down.

I hope its fixed in the next patch and I'm really missing FM.[/QUOTE]

That's just rubbish.

Maybe the woodwork count is slightly higher than IRL, but its still not more than 1 per team each 2 matches at the high end. Perhaps teams suffering from it have strikers with a tendency to try to place the ball in the corners?

Anyway, no significant ME changes for 12.2, just so you don't get your hopes up.

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[quote name='PaulC']That's just rubbish.

Maybe the woodwork count is slightly higher than IRL, but its still not more than 1 per team each 2 matches at the high end. Perhaps teams suffering from it have strikers with a tendency to try to place the ball in the corners?

Anyway, no significant ME changes [b]for 12.2[/b], just so you don't get your hopes up.[/QUOTE]


So when goes the 12.2 patch live?

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Any update will be included with the Post-January transfer update as usual. We have no exact date set for this at this stage. Thanks.

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