The SI Sports Centre - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Cleon]

Cleon is it possible to try to win the ball quickly and doing a heavy pressing game even if the tactic includes 2 DMC and 1 MC ?

Yeah just be sure to take the D-Line into consideration too.

[mikcheck]

Ok. Thank you

[robb0_888]

Outplay - Yes... beat - NO! I'm enjoying the challenge though.. but it's not something I can do over one game. Sometimes for example, If my fullback is too tight to Bale he'll get skinned, but if i change his marking to not tight then he may leave too much space. I suppose its like youv'e expressed throughout the thread.. the ME involves the interaction of so many attributes that it's very difficult to address sometimes. I'm not too fussed about losing, as long as I put up a fight and do it playing good football!

By the way.. playing QPR who are using the 4-2-3-1 formation, and im using 4-1-2-2-1. Really struggled, Graham dropping deep getting the ball to feet just got hounded by their CB and I couldn't keep possession. I changed the CM(l) to Advanced Playmaker, and changed Sinclair (AML) to winger to try and create the space for the CM(l)to move into. Also, changed Graham to a poacher to push the defensive line further back and its worked wonders. Making your own tactic and seeing it work is amazing.. i dont know how others download other peoples for plug and play.

[Gee_Simpson]

Outplay - Yes... beat - NO! I'm enjoying the challenge though.. but it's not something I can do over one game. Sometimes for example, If my fullback is too tight to Bale he'll get skinned, but if i change his marking to not tight then he may leave too much space. I suppose its like youv'e expressed throughout the thread.. the ME involves the interaction of so many attributes that it's very difficult to address sometimes. I'm not too fussed about losing, as long as I put up a fight and do it playing good football!

By the way.. playing QPR who are using the 4-2-3-1 formation, and im using 4-1-2-2-1. Really struggled, Graham dropping deep getting the ball to feet just got hounded by their CB and I couldn't keep possession. I changed the CM(l) to Advanced Playmaker, and changed Sinclair (AML) to winger to try and create the space for the CM(l)to move into. Also, changed Graham to a poacher to push the defensive line further back and its worked wonders. Making your own tactic and seeing it work is amazing.. i dont know how others download other peoples for plug and play.

Like you I recently started creating my own tactics and you definitely get an extra sense of achievement when something you've created works compared to using someone else's tactic. I couldn't go back to downloading tactics now.

[ShirazS]

Like you I recently started creating my own tactics and you definitely get an extra sense of achievement when something you've created works compared to using someone else's tactic. I couldn't go back to downloading tactics now.

Agreed. Although I still download a tactic now and then to use it with a test save and then take ideas from it

[robb0_888]

Finally done it ! Well and truly deserved too Cleon. Restricted their chances to mostly long shots and Defoe from difficult angles. Happy with most of the stats too, but Brittons pass completion percentage was around 60% which I need to address. They switched to 4-3-1-2 again like I told you last time, except this time I put the two CB's on the same role and used exploit flanks shout and overlapping full backs. Should of kept a clean sheet, but I stupidly told Williams to man mark Defoe, who hugged the touchline and dragged him out of position, which meant VDV filled the space and scored. Lesson quickly learned!

[Cleon]

Finally done it ! Well and truly deserved too Cleon. Restricted their chances to mostly long shots and Defoe from difficult angles. Happy with most of the stats too, but Brittons pass completion percentage was around 60% which I need to address. They switched to 4-3-1-2 again like I told you last time, except this time I put the two CB's on the same role and used exploit flanks shout and overlapping full backs. Should of kept a clean sheet, but I stupidly told Williams to man mark Defoe, who hugged the touchline and dragged him out of position, which meant VDV filled the space and scored. Lesson quickly learned!

How pleased are you right now?

Don't worry about Brittons pass completion to much for this game as I feel he had a lot of defensive duties to do in this game. But if it continues to be low then yes it could be an issue. It might be a case of him been too deep at times meaning his normal passing options didn't exist.

[robb0_888]

I now face new problems Iv'e missed chances to win against Norwich, Blackburn and Fulham where Iv'e dominated but not really created enough chances in the final 3rd. I have Graham to roam to create the space, but sometimes it looks like too many people are outside the box and not enough making runs through the defence, so i'm going to take his roaming off and see how I get on. Iv'e checked the average positions on the analysis and the runs look fine so im strugglin to put my finger on it.

[snakebite1992]

when i start fm 12,there's a black screen after the sponsors and sega add and all.and it never goes.i was told to go to desktop,right click on the shortcut of fm12 and go to properties and add '--reset_preferences' to what was already written in the target bos in properties. it still didnt work,then i was told to make a space between what was already in it and wha t i had to write,the problem didnt get solved.i was told to write something else in it.i tried,but the problem persists.can u please help me out?

[Cleon]

when i start fm 12,there's a black screen after the sponsors and sega add and all.and it never goes.i was told to go to desktop,right click on the shortcut of fm12 and go to properties and add '--reset_preferences' to what was already written in the target bos in properties. it still didnt work,then i was told to make a space between what was already in it and wha t i had to write,the problem didnt get solved.i was told to write something else in it.i tried,but the problem persists.can u please help me out?

You can't just post random problems in threads ffs

Try General

[gooner83]

You can't just post random problems in threads ffs

Try General

Hahaha Cleon that was a great reply

[Đẹp Trai]

@Dep Trai

00:07 - Liverpool are playing a high line with almost a 4-2-4. They are obviously attacking and don't really think much of your chances in this game. This can be a good thing, because you should be able to find a lot of space. However, I'm guessing you have default or man-marking set, because your MC, who should be central presumably waiting for a nice outball to start a counter attack, has instead moved across to man mark whoever is Liverpool's MCR. This causes him to be double marked, because your DMCL is already doing that job. Also, it appears that your DMCR is a defensive player, who is gifting way too much space to Lucas Leiva, who receives the ball in space. It is already clear that your fullbacks are not defending enough because Liverpool's pushed-up wingers are goalside of them. This leads directly to the goal.

00:18 - There are nine players within a very small area crowded around the ball - 5 black, 4 red. Your shape is almost indeterminable here, so I'm guessing you are closing down too much. Everyone has been attracted to the ball and being cut out by Liverpool's short interplay. Wherever the ball moves, your players rush to close it down, leaving gaps for another opposition player to move into and thus receive the ball. This is exemplified at 00:21, when Charlie Adam receives the ball and has no less than FOUR players surrounding him - none of which are putting him under any significant pressure. Again, the fifth player is your fullback who lets Downing ghost past him for his second goal.

00:29 - I assume by this point, at two goals down, you pretty much went for broke. This is because you are suddenly playing a suicidally high line which Liverpool exploit with ease.

Overall, I think you firstly decided to counter attack the opposition, which is not such a bad idea. However, your execution of that plan was heavily flawed. It looks like you were closing down too much, not positionally disciplined enough and didn't deal with the key threats on the flank in one-vs-one battles. Against a 442 like Liverpool were playing, playing two DMCs gives the opposition MCs too much time and space on the ball. Especially when both of those MCs are Lucas Leiva and Charlie Adam - creative, but fairly static, players. The third midfielder was rendered useless by picking either the MCR or MCL to double-up on, rather than staying central and high between the liverpool defence and midfield. It would have been better to play 4411, thus pushing out the Liverpool midfield. When the opposition midfield has free runners, like a Lampard or Gerrard or Cahill, who is going to break from deep and get into the box, that is the time to play some sort of defensive screen in DMC. The other major flaw was that you were constantly caught playing Liverpool's extremely attacking wingers onside, particularly Downing. I don't know what role or duty the fullbacks were on, but I would have set them up as defending and maybe even played converted centrebacks in these positions - as opposed to attacking fullbacks, for example.

thankyou verymuch :x

what you do if your team is suffered more conner ?

[rvd313]

Hi Cleon,

After getting bored with my 4-1-2-2-1 (433) false nine tactic, I've started using a system similar to the one you used with Newcastle, with minor modification's to suit my team:

It has produced some nice football which I have thoroughly enjoyed. One of the most satisfying moves is when my AMR cuts inside and plays a perfect diagonal through ball to my AML, as he has done on several occasions now. The movement of my CF and his link-up play is also very nice to behold and he is creating and scoring goals in equal measure. The results have also been enjoyable, bar a couple of exceptions:

I have though somehow managed to back myself into a tactical conundrum, concerning my goalkeepers distribution and the placement of my DLP. I wonder if I should have my GK distribute to my RB so that the ball reaches my AMR quicker - not to mention the fact that the AMR is more likely to show for the ball than my AML - and therefore the diagonal to my AML would be on more often? Or should I leave it on my LB so that the ball reaches my DLP more often and more quickly, allowing him to dictate the play (my DLP is essentially a Croatian Xavi)? I also realise the dilemma could be partially solved by placing my DLP in the DMCR slot, but then I think he'd need to be on a defend duty, a move I worry would stifle his creativity somewhat. He is also left-footed and I worry that by placing him on the right-side I'd be forcing him into making certain passes. There would also be the question of what to with the DMCL in that set-up. When I have used the DMCR as a DLP (defend) - for the Russian national side - I set my DMCL to a DM (support), but I found that he tended to advance too far up-field for my liking, congesting the space available to my AMC and AMR.

Decisions, decisions...

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

After getting bored with my 4-1-2-2-1 (433) false nine tactic, I've started using a system similar to the one you used with Newcastle, with minor modification's to suit my team:

It has produced some nice football which I have thoroughly enjoyed. One of the most satisfying moves is when my AMR cuts inside and plays a perfect diagonal through ball to my AML, as he has done on several occasions now. The movement of my CF and his link-up play is also very nice to behold and he is creating and scoring goals in equal measure. The results have also been enjoyable, bar a couple of exceptions:

I have though somehow managed to back myself into a tactical conundrum, concerning my goalkeepers distribution and the placement of my DLP. I wonder if I should have my GK distribute to my RB so that the ball reaches my AMR quicker - not to mention the fact that the AMR is more likely to show for the ball than my AML - and therefore the diagonal to my AML would be on more often? Or should I leave it on my LB so that the ball reaches my DLP more often and more quickly, allowing him to dictate the play (my DLP is essentially a Croatian Xavi)? I also realise the dilemma could be partially solved by placing my DLP in the DMCR slot, but then I think he'd need to be on a defend duty, a move I worry would stifle his creativity somewhat. He is also left-footed and I worry that by placing him on the right-side I'd be forcing him into making certain passes. There would also be the question of what to with the DMCL in that set-up. When I have used the DMCR as a DLP (defend) - for the Russian national side - I set my DMCL to a DM (support), but I found that he tended to advance too far up-field for my liking, congesting the space available to my AMC and AMR.

Decisions, decisions...

If he's selected as your primary playmaker then it shouldn't really matter what side he plays as players will be more inclined to already pass to him.

You'd want the keeper to pass to the BPD who then should pass to the DLP in most cases. It might help (its only a suggestion though) if you had the BPD and the DLP play inline with each other though. So I'd be tempted to move the defenders around and not the DMC's

[rvd313]

Well, setting the GK to distribute to the BPD wouldn't do much good, as he'd just end up hoofing the ball forward aimlessly at goal kicks, rather than making a simple pass to the player he's specifically been instructed to pass to. Probably best to go with the RB, because as you say, my playmaker will receive the ball regardless.

I also don't think switching the BPD to DCL would be a good idea as he's very right-footed. Also, from the DCR position he can consistently spray accurate passes to either my AML or AMR. He also seems to pass to the DLP often enough anyway. Your suggestion does have merit though, and I might see if I can buy a less one-footed BPD in January.

Btw, my CF is an absolute beast. He just thumped five goals past Bursaspor, including a hat-trick inside the first 30 mins.

[robb0_888]

I really like the tactic.. I think it produces some good football but it can be very vulnerable to certain formations. Maybe its just the way I set it out... but if I played anybody in a 4-4-1-1 formation i'd get murdered by the AMC/ST combo despite having 4 people cramming the area. Even then, if I do manage to control them I find that the 2 CM in the opposition team have too much space... whilst as people have discussed previously pushing the two DM > CM leaves you even more vulnerable.

[Cleon]

Well, setting the GK to distribute to the BPD wouldn't do much good, as he'd just end up hoofing the ball forward aimlessly at goal kicks, rather than making a simple pass to the player he's specifically been instructed to pass to. Probably best to go with the RB, because as you say, my playmaker will receive the ball regardless.

What's the point of playing with a BPD then if you just bypass him and don't want him on the ball? The whole point of a BPD is to have play the ball out of the defence. For me you are confused about what you want to do and how you are achieveing it. Not having a go, but you seem conflicted or I've massivley misunderstood you

Also, from the DCR position he can consistently spray accurate passes to either my AML or AMR.

He'd still do the same in DCL too, what makes you think differently? It's no different :confused:

Btw, my CF is an absolute beast. He just thumped five goals past Bursaspor, including a hat-trick inside the first 30 mins.

How many as he got for the season?

How does your AMC work? I found that when I used a CF he was too involved which might sound daft but I felt he was taking focus away from the AP who is the main man in this type of shape.

I'd be interested to see the game stats of the AP from the last 2 seasons or so, so I can compare with my games

[Cleon]

I really like the tactic.. I think it produces some good football but it can be very vulnerable to certain formations. Maybe its just the way I set it out... but if I played anybody in a 4-4-1-1 formation i'd get murdered by the AMC/ST combo despite having 4 people cramming the area. Even then, if I do manage to control them I find that the 2 CM in the opposition team have too much space... whilst as people have discussed previously pushing the two DM > CM leaves you even more vulnerable.

What shape leaves you vulnerable against a AMC/ST combo? You should'nt be if you have 2DMC's.

[rvd313]

What's the point of playing with a BPD then if you just bypass him and don't want him on the ball? The whole point of a BPD is to have play the ball out of the defence. For me you are confused about what you want to do and how you are achieveing it. Not having a go, but you seem conflicted or I've massivley misunderstood you

I don't bypass the BPD though. The ball tends to get knocked around during build-up between my two CB's and my two DM's. Having a BPD means I have someone capable of playing longer, more accurate passes, even when under intense pressure. He's not there purely for ornamentation, but he's also not the focal point of the team, if you know what I mean. He's just another playmaker, who happens to play at CB. He's not a concern for me; he does his job and he does it well.

My problem is trying to keep both my DLP and my AMR involved in the game equally. I worry that distributing the ball in one direction will leave one of the two isolated. I especially worry that if my AMR doesn't receive the ball wide and deep, we won't benefit enough from the dynamic of the right-side overload, allowing my AML to be picked out in space at will. I'm probably just being paranoid though.

He'd still do the same in DCL too, what makes you think differently? It's no different

You implied there would be more interchange between the two if they played in-line with one another. Is this not the case?

How many as he got for the season?

10 in 8. He's ridiculously good.

How does your AMC work? I found that when I used a CF he was too involved which might sound daft but I felt he was taking focus away from the AP who is the main man in this type of shape.

The AMC's performance seems to depend entirely on the player. When I play Fleck there he seems to get low ratings, probably due to his long shots PPM, which makes him shoot from distance at every conceivable (and inconceivable) opportunity. When Canales plays there however, he does very well.

I know what you mean about the CF taking away from the AP and I have seen some instances of this. With the right players though it seems to work out. I notice for example that if the CF drops deep the AP makes a run beyond him, which is a dynamic I've previously struggled to create. Overall I feel that my AMC is involved enough in the play, linking up with the two DMs and the front three to equal effectiveness. For example, here's Canales' passing stats from the match against Bursaspor:

I'd be interested to see the game stats of the AP from the last 2 seasons or so, so I can compare with my games

I've only started using the tactic in my current season, which is my 8th overall. I can provide stats at the seasons end if you wish?

[Cleon]

I don't bypass the BPD though. The ball tends to get knocked around during build-up between my two CB's and my two DM's. Having a BPD means I have someone capable of playing longer, more accurate passes, even when under intense pressure. He's not there purely for ornamentation, but he's also not the focal point of the team, if you know what I mean. He's just another playmaker, who happens to play at CB. He's not a concern for me; he does his job and he does it well.

But he's taking play away from your DLP imo. But if your happy your happy, I just personally don't see the point or advantage of having a BPD when you have a DLP.

My problem is trying to keep both my DLP and my AMR involved in the game equally. I worry that distributing the ball in one direction will leave one of the two isolated. I especially worry that if my AMR doesn't receive the ball wide and deep, we won't benefit enough from the dynamic of the right-side overload, allowing my AML to be picked out in space at will. I'm probably just being paranoid though.

How confident are you in your DLP? If you are confident just let him decide which options he thinks is best at the time. I think it works fine how you're set up atm as it's not 1 dimensional and makes it harder for the opposition to predict how you will play.

You implied there would be more interchange between the two if they played in-line with one another. Is this not the case?

I meant it would be easier and get the ball to your DLP faster as he'd be infront of him. I didn't mean to imply anything else

I know what you mean about the CF taking away from the AP and I have seen some instances of this. With the right players though it seems to work out. I notice for example that if the CF drops deep the AP makes a run beyond him, which is a dynamic I've previously struggled to create. Overall I feel that my AMC is involved enough in the play, linking up with the two DMs and the front three to equal effectiveness. For example, here's Canales' passing stats from the match against Bursaspor:

What are his (the AP) key passes like in the league stats page?

I've only started using the tactic in my current season, which is my 8th overall. I can provide stats at the seasons end if you wish?

If you have the time then sure, np if not though. It was only so I can compare to other saves I have and see how we differ and see if anything I can learn

[rvd313]

But he's taking play away from your DLP imo. But if your happy your happy, I just personally don't see the point or advantage of having a BPD when you have a DLP.

I understand what you're saying, but for me its not a big issue. My DLP almost always ends up completing the most passes (usually between 50-70, occasionally higher) out of all the team. Even if it were the case that the BPD was taking play away from him, that's fine anyway - I don't want the team to rely too heavily on certain individuals. If it makes sense to bypass the DLP then so be it. I trust that my BPD is intelligent enough to choose the right option.

How confident are you in your DLP? If you are confident just let him decide which options he thinks is best at the time. I think it works fine how you're set up atm as it's not 1 dimensional and makes it harder for the opposition to predict how you will play.

This is how my DLP looks currently:

He has the 'plays short passes' ppm which leads him to keep things relatively simple for the most part, but he does play some great passes to the overlapping WB's.

My other options for DLP are the following:

Johansen would be perfect if his teamwork rating was higher.

What are his (the AP) key passes like in the league stats page?

Canales has 3 key passes in the only league match he's played so far (i've been saving him for the CL..)

Fleck has 2 in 5 games.

My AMR has 6 in 4 and my CF has 9 in 6.

I'll need to play Canales more to see if this pattern continues.

[Cleon]

What happened to Jamie Ness? always liked the look of him.

[rvd313]

I sold him to Southampton in my fifth season. He never reached his potential on this save for some reason.

[Cleon]

What are people wanting to see from me in regards to threads for FM13?

[jimbobBRFC]

What are people wanting to see from me in regards to threads for FM13?

A similar one to the Sports Center would be ace, although I can imagine it takes up a lot of time. I cant see the game being massively different either so most of the stuff would probably still be relevant.

[Cleon]

A similar one to the Sports Center would be ace, although I can imagine it takes up a lot of time. I cant see the game being massively different either so most of the stuff would probably still be relevant.

They'll be a thread like this but it'll be about my adventures with Sheffield FC in the Evo-Stik Leagues and trying to battle my way to the Premiership. And how I try and achieve a distinct style and mould players to play this way, even in the lower leagues.

[rvd313]

Things are going well. Just about squeezed my way into the Champions League last 16, grinding out a couple of draws against AC Milan, before thrashing Valencia 4-1 at Ibrox and defeating Bursaspor away 2-1. My CF is still banging goals in for fun, with 19 in 19 games. His young deputy is even getting in on the act, with 5 goals in 6 games, so obviously the tactic is doing the business in terms of getting my CF goals. Infuriatingly however my AML (Vedran Vinko) is not having similar success, only managing 3 goals in 13 games. This is a guy who scored over 20 goals the previous season from the same position and in the same role. I feel I'm not creating enough quality chances for him. Would perhaps moving the DLP to the opposite side help him out? My AML is involved a little too much in build-up play for my liking - he is essentially a poacher, albeit on the wing - and this is probably due to his close proximity to my DLP. That being said, he is very much a confidence player and tends to have productive seasons followed by barren spells. The other player I use in that role, a 21-year old rookie, has a slightly better strike rate, with 5 in 12. Is there anyway I can help him out, or is he just out of form?

In other news, my DLP has just learned the 'dictates tempo' PPM - and he put that new found skill to good use in the first Old Firm game, as can be seen:

My CF may have been awarded MoM, but I think Istuk was the real star of the show. Celtic couldn't get the ball off him.

[Cleon]

Things are going well. Just about squeezed my way into the Champions League last 16, grinding out a couple of draws against AC Milan, before thrashing Valencia 4-1 at Ibrox and defeating Bursaspor away 2-1. My CF is still banging goals in for fun, with 19 in 19 games. His young deputy is even getting in on the act, with 5 goals in 6 games, so obviously the tactic is doing the business in terms of getting my CF goals. Infuriatingly however my AML (Vedran Vinko) is not having similar success, only managing 3 goals in 13 games. This is a guy who scored over 20 goals the previous season from the same position and in the same role. I feel I'm not creating enough quality chances for him. Would perhaps moving the DLP to the opposite side help him out? My AML is involved a little too much in build-up play for my liking - he is essentially a poacher, albeit on the wing - and this is probably due to his close proximity to my DLP. That being said, he is very much a confidence player and tends to have productive seasons followed by barren spells. The other player I use in that role, a 21-year old rookie, has a slightly better strike rate, with 5 in 12. Is there anyway I can help him out, or is he just out of form?

It could just be a rough patch he's having. Or he could be the reason why your CF is scoring so many goals. He might be forcing the fullbacks and DC's to concentrate on him more which is allowing the CF to create more space for himself. Have you watched any of the games back and used the analysis tab to see what the issue with him is? I would if I was you just so you know its down to form or something else. If he's creating space for others to play in then I don't think this would be too much of an issue

[rvd313]

Anything in particular I should be looking at? Shots? Scoring chances?

[Cleon]

To see how he moves during a game and why he was scoring goals and not isn't.

[rvd313]

Looking back over things I think he's just out of form, as he's certainly getting decent chances and getting into promising positions. My suspicions would appear to be confirmed by recent matches: he was suspended and the other AML I use as a IF(a) was injured, so I moved Buonanotte to AML as a WG(s) and placed Gregg Wylde as the IF(a) at AMR. Wylde seemingly has no trouble scoring in that role, in spite of his ostensibly poorer ability. I'll probably sell Vinko in the summer and replace him with a young Serbian who is doing well out on loan at Bristol City (11 goals in 19 apps) and who also did well on loan at Reading the previous season (13 goals in 16).

[raphael.sanni]

Does anybody know how my 3-2-2-2-1 can counter a 3-5-2 flat midfield and napolis 3-4-2-1?

[Deego619]

I'm finding a certain shape really irritating to play against.

I'm Zenit in Russia and i'm pretty much play against buses week in week out apart from European games, but this gave a whole new definition to the word. Was more like park the jumbo jet.

^ The stats shown are also the end of game stats.

This was a cup game, however I had lost the corresponding league fixture 5-1. Whilst on a 14 game unbeaten run too. I had thought I could play my standard 4-2-3-1 deep and play around their system with shouts. But they just overwhelmed me in midfield and I was 3-0 down after 15 minutes before I could react and they had moved back into plane mode.

This game I had tried to switch it up a touch. Playing a narrower formation with the strikers moving into the channels supporting my marauding full backs. The movement had worked well. But the sheer amount of bodies flooding the penalty area every time the ball went wide/for a corner made it impossible to create many opportunities. The only "clear" chance I had was when their defender had a lapse in concentration and Kerzhakov nicked it from him and blasted it wide 1vs1.

I used all the usual attacking shouts. Play wider, pass into space, hassle opponents, push higher, exploit flanks, look for overlap, play out of defence etc. whilst trying to exploit the massive space out wide. I ended up losing the tie on penalties after a 0-0 draw from 120 minutes of football.

Thing is I just do not have a clue what else I can do against such a system as it is the only "bus" variant I struggle to play against. My players' motivation was superb so I do not deem it a factor.

Any advice on what I have done wrong or how to approach this particular system?

[Cleon]

Does anybody know how my 3-2-2-2-1 can counter a 3-5-2 flat midfield and napolis 3-4-2-1?

If you need help then you have to put more effort into the details you post so someone can actually advise you...

[Cleon]

I'm finding a certain shape really irritating to play against.

I'm Zenit in Russia and i'm pretty much play against buses week in week out apart from European games, but this gave a whole new definition to the word. Was more like park the jumbo jet.

^ The stats shown are also the end of game stats.

This was a cup game, however I had lost the corresponding league fixture 5-1. Whilst on a 14 game unbeaten run too. I had thought I could play my standard 4-2-3-1 deep and play around their system with shouts. But they just overwhelmed me in midfield and I was 3-0 down after 15 minutes before I could react and they had moved back into plane mode.

This game I had tried to switch it up a touch. Playing a narrower formation with the strikers moving into the channels supporting my marauding full backs. The movement had worked well. But the sheer amount of bodies flooding the penalty area every time the ball went wide/for a corner made it impossible to create many opportunities. The only "clear" chance I had was when their defender had a lapse in concentration and Kerzhakov nicked it from him and blasted it wide 1vs1.

I used all the usual attacking shouts. Play wider, pass into space, hassle opponents, push higher, exploit flanks, look for overlap, play out of defence etc. whilst trying to exploit the massive space out wide. I ended up losing the tie on penalties after a 0-0 draw from 120 minutes of football.

Thing is I just do not have a clue what else I can do against such a system as it is the only "bus" variant I struggle to play against. My players' motivation was superb so I do not deem it a factor.

Any advice on what I have done wrong or how to approach this particular system?

Did you only watch highlights or the full game? I'd have reacted after going 1 or 2 nil down. What prompted the late response from yourself? I'm guessing you only watched highlights though? You did have time to react after the first goal or the 2nd one. But you failed to. I'm not having a go or anything but the later you respond to to events in game the more you'll struggle.

I face this formation a few times as in Brazil Palmerias play this shape every time I play them. But how I beat them wont help you as I use a 32221 posted in the main thread.

However I wouldn't call the shape defensive and its certainly not a park the bus formation but what it does is have 9 players who track back so it can give the impression of been a park the bus formation. But it isn't, its just a solid shape that defends from the front.

The problem I can see from the screenshot is your ownplayers been too static and easy to mark. Have a look at the screenshot and look at your players. Not a single one in a good position to recieve the ball and not a single one in space. Your striker is useless in this scenario he is marked out of the game 4 vs 1.

You have no width and all your players are crowded in the middle which makes it even easier for the opposition to defend against seeing as they are narrow themselves.

When you say you played a narrower formation what did you play? And why would you go narrower against a team that is also playing narrow? All you do is make it even harder for space and to get your players involved.

I'm not quite sure what the original settings and roles are what you use but the way to beat this formation is by dragging the defence wide or deep. For this you either need an AMC or striker dropping deep or shifting wide and allowing the AMC to run into the space what the striker creates.

It's not always a good idea to be more attacking especially against sides you deem defensive. What you should do is be more patient and probing and tempt them to come at you by playing a little bit deeper than normal meaning there is more space between your own line. This allows for players to drop off and hopefully the opposition will follow their marker and this creates gaps and space.

I can't really offer any more advice as while you offered some info you gave nothing about your system you used and the roles etc, which is the most important aspect of all

[Deego619]

Thanks for the reply

When you say you played a narrower formation what did you play? And why would you go narrower against a team that is also playing narrow? All you do is make it even harder for space and to get your players involved.

Because of the corresponding league fixture where my team was decimated by the fact that Krasondar played so many men in the midfield. I did not want a repeat of that so I decided to ditch my usual system...

which was decimated by Krasnodar in the league game, to this..

((all roles are not modified but TC defaults, apart from my AMC who I have given RWB - Often and LS - Rarely))

As above, I know it did not seem a logical choice but I did not want my midfield to be decimated like in the league tie. I think everyone would agree if I said losing 5-1 to a lowly Russian side whilst playing as Zenit is quite dire.

Did you only watch highlights or the full game? I'd have reacted after going 1 or 2 nil down. What prompted the late response from yourself? I'm guessing you only watched highlights though? You did have time to react after the first goal or the 2nd one. But you failed to. I'm not having a go or anything but the later you respond to to events in game the more you'll struggle.

Admittedly I watch my games on extended. But ill watch full games more frequently now, and perhaps ill look over this particular game in full too. From what I saw there was just too many men playing around my DMCs.

From reading this thread and others around here I've already picked up playing more deeper as a bigger team creates more space in behind, hence the Counter strategies already on my systems above. This is the reason my IF and wingers have a support duty, to play in my Poacher or AMC and it has worked quite well. Danny has the most assists in the league (12) and (13) overall.

[Cleon]

I find it interesting that you thought that formation would make it easier to not get overrun in midfield. IMO the first set up is easier to stop the midfield threat than the formation you choose to use instead.

In the 2nd formation you was more attacking, so your front 3 would neglect any defensive duties. So again you was out numbered in midfield and make it harder for your DMC. Your DMC would have been responsible for marking and picking up the oppositions AMC and the MC's. I'm guessing your own MC would have been stretched as 2 MC's play extremly narrow. So if they picked up the oppositions MC's then they would always have a spare man that the DMC would have to pick up while at the same time trying to mark the AMC.

[Cleon]

I really wish I had more time to do a detailed response with screenshots etc but I just don't have the time I'm afraid

[Kingbogo]

Just thought i'd pop on since i haven't been playing for a while. I was probably halfway in the thread talking about the WM formation with chelsea. Well I started playing again this week and went back to my Malaga save, in my 5th year with them season 3 was first league win, season 4 treble, league, cup and champ league playing a 4231.

So i went back and was in Nov and am unbeaten in league 1 point behind Barca, and have thrown my team into the WM, but i went back to the original pic. So using 2 AMC's instead of MC's. I have a good team so they adapted well and have been flying. Still love the formation in the 2 or 3 varieties I have with about 20 versions of each with little tweaks. It really produces exciting football.

I am also someone that hasn't gone out and bought the world's best on 48month deals, not my style. Pay upfront, but notable signings for me have been Ozil (transfer listed so cost 14m), Ter Stegen was a 2 year fight to get him but is awesome, Victor Ruiz has been great, and picked up Danny Wilson on a free and he has been immense and is currently my first choice DC, Wayne Rooney transfer listed himself at Man U and I picked him up for £30 m. Javi Garcia and Blaise Matuidi have been my DM rocks. Also helped by picking up some cracking newgens and youth. Behind Rooney i have Sanogo and Wilfried, my regen Joey Mulder is currently on loan at AC milan and is doing fantastic, cant wait to get him back. My Malaga team is a long term project and doing well. Just wanted to say thanks for introducing it to me, and I am so converted.

[Deego619]

I find it interesting that you thought that formation would make it easier to not get overrun in midfield. IMO the first set up is easier to stop the midfield threat than the formation you choose to use instead.

In the 2nd formation you was more attacking, so your front 3 would neglect any defensive duties. So again you was out numbered in midfield and make it harder for your DMC. Your DMC would have been responsible for marking and picking up the oppositions AMC and the MC's. I'm guessing your own MC would have been stretched as 2 MC's play extremly narrow. So if they picked up the oppositions MC's then they would always have a spare man that the DMC would have to pick up while at the same time trying to mark the AMC.

But would the same not happen (to an even worse effect) if I was to stick by the 4-2-3-1? Then I would have 2 DMs trying to pick up 4 players with the AMC taken out by the opposition DMC. Hence my problems during my first fixture where I lost 5-1.

Would the formation in question perhaps require a very specific shape to counter it?

[Karnage94]

But would the same not happen (to an even worse effect) if I was to stick by the 4-2-3-1? Then I would have 2 DMs trying to pick up 4 players with the AMC taken out by the opposition DMC. Hence my problems during my first fixture where I lost 5-1.

Would the formation in question perhaps require a very specific shape to counter it?

I would have thought that the wide midfielders of the middle 3 would drift wide and be picked up by the full backs. If not then make sure you get bodies in the way of midfield runners.

The 4-2-3-1 deep is very good at doing that as long as the closing down isn't too high. You aren't going to dominate possession against teams that pack the middle of the park so your going to have to be quick and exploit the flanks.

If you find the outside midfielders of the middle 3 drift out wide then let your full backs deal with them however I'm not sure if they would do that or not. That's how I would address that formation.

[Cleon]

Just thought i'd pop on since i haven't been playing for a while. I was probably halfway in the thread talking about the WM formation with chelsea. Well I started playing again this week and went back to my Malaga save, in my 5th year with them season 3 was first league win, season 4 treble, league, cup and champ league playing a 4231.

So i went back and was in Nov and am unbeaten in league 1 point behind Barca, and have thrown my team into the WM, but i went back to the original pic. So using 2 AMC's instead of MC's. I have a good team so they adapted well and have been flying. Still love the formation in the 2 or 3 varieties I have with about 20 versions of each with little tweaks. It really produces exciting football.

I am also someone that hasn't gone out and bought the world's best on 48month deals, not my style. Pay upfront, but notable signings for me have been Ozil (transfer listed so cost 14m), Ter Stegen was a 2 year fight to get him but is awesome, Victor Ruiz has been great, and picked up Danny Wilson on a free and he has been immense and is currently my first choice DC, Wayne Rooney transfer listed himself at Man U and I picked him up for £30 m. Javi Garcia and Blaise Matuidi have been my DM rocks. Also helped by picking up some cracking newgens and youth. Behind Rooney i have Sanogo and Wilfried, my regen Joey Mulder is currently on loan at AC milan and is doing fantastic, cant wait to get him back. My Malaga team is a long term project and doing well. Just wanted to say thanks for introducing it to me, and I am so converted.

Cheers, nice to hear

Posts like this make the threads I do all seem worth while

[Cleon]

But would the same not happen (to an even worse effect) if I was to stick by the 4-2-3-1? Then I would have 2 DMs trying to pick up 4 players with the AMC taken out by the opposition DMC. Hence my problems during my first fixture where I lost 5-1.

Would the formation in question perhaps require a very specific shape to counter it?

Basically what Karnage says underneath this post is correct.

I find that 2 DMC's are easier to deal with the threat. You'd not have as much possession but that doesn't mean you cannot win the game. Most of their possession would be around the half way line or just inside their own half.

I've played 2 DMC's against that shape on a few occassions and never encountered massive problems. Once you cut the supply off from the AMC then the system doesn' work as intended. He is the focal point of the tactic.

And your DMC's wouldn't have 4 players to pick up, it would be 2/3. The two MC's and the AMC. The 3rd MC wouldn't be as attacking. Plus don't forget you'd have 2 centrebacks too. So they'd scoop up any mistakes or throughballs that make it pass your DMC's.

I think the problem you face is not the shape but how you view the games. Highlights or extended are okay but they don't help you win games as you're not paying any real attention to whats going on in a game. So you're not really a reactive manager so the AI always has the advantage over people who play the way you do. I'm not critisising you btw and I understand that not everyone has the time to watch parts of a game or anything and thats fair enough. But you then have to accept you'll face times where you get results like the above.

You could always give this a try;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do

[Tugger]

They'll be a thread like this but it'll be about my adventures with Sheffield FC in the Evo-Stik Leagues and trying to battle my way to the Premiership. And how I try and achieve a distinct style and mould players to play this way, even in the lower leagues.

I'm very interested in a thread like this, as I'm currently starting a save with the Blyth Spartans in the Blue Square North. I'd really like to play a certain style, but is it possible with teams at such a low level? I feel as if I'm almost confined to a strict, direct approach.

[Cleon]

I'm very interested in a thread like this, as I'm currently starting a save with the Blyth Spartans in the Blue Square North. I'd really like to play a certain style, but is it possible with teams at such a low level? I feel as if I'm almost confined to a strict, direct approach.

Lots of people think that but I don't believe it to be the case. I play the same way regardless of what level I play. If I wanna be fancy and a Swiss Verou or a W-M then I'll do exactly that. In all honesty nothing changes the lower you play, only the attributes players have but that is same for all the teams in the league not only you.

Play how you want is what I say

You'll see what I mean more for FM13 though. I'd do something now but little time and enjoy taking a break for a few months before writing again

[Tugger]

Lots of people think that but I don't believe it to be the case. I play the same way regardless of what level I play. If I wanna be fancy and a Swiss Verou or a W-M then I'll do exactly that. In all honesty nothing changes the lower you play, only the attributes players have but that is same for all the teams in the league not only you.

Play how you want is what I say

You'll see what I mean more for FM13 though. I'd do something now but little time and enjoy taking a break for a few months before writing again

Thanks for the quick response! I've been wanting to try something a bit unorthodox where I play my wingers in the STL/STR positions (hugging the touchline) and have my wing backs exploiting the space by cutting inside. Here is how I currently have the formation setup:

I'm still not sure the best way to employ my central attacker. Plan on messing around with deep-lying forward support/treq in the SC role and AP/treq in the AMC role.

[Deego619]

Basically what Karnage says underneath this post is correct.

I find that 2 DMC's are easier to deal with the threat. You'd not have as much possession but that doesn't mean you cannot win the game. Most of their possession would be around the half way line or just inside their own half.

I've played 2 DMC's against that shape on a few occassions and never encountered massive problems. Once you cut the supply off from the AMC then the system doesn' work as intended. He is the focal point of the tactic.

And your DMC's wouldn't have 4 players to pick up, it would be 2/3. The two MC's and the AMC. The 3rd MC wouldn't be as attacking. Plus don't forget you'd have 2 centrebacks too. So they'd scoop up any mistakes or throughballs that make it pass your DMC's.

I think the problem you face is not the shape but how you view the games. Highlights or extended are okay but they don't help you win games as you're not paying any real attention to whats going on in a game. So you're not really a reactive manager so the AI always has the advantage over people who play the way you do. I'm not critisising you btw and I understand that not everyone has the time to watch parts of a game or anything and thats fair enough. But you then have to accept you'll face times where you get results like the above.

You could always give this a try;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do

I usually view the stats, and which team is receiving more extended highlights and judge from what I see in them to alter shouts. You could say im a sort of hybrid from those who skim through games on Key or Only Commentary and the likes of yourself who watch them in full detail.

Perhaps it is indeed my high pressing game, like Karnage said, that is the problem here. Its an error on my part that I didn't think that having 2 DMs closing down like mad men all those midfielders may not be the best option and will pull them from position on the AMC.

I'll make sure to watch my matches in more detail in future.

Thanks for all your advice and debate by the way Cleon and Karnage, yous are a credit to the forum.

[rvd313]

Now that's what I call a football match.

It was both an exciting and an exasperating game of football. We dominated Madrid in the early stages and yet found ourselves two goals down, conceding from both a set-piece and a simple cross into the box. We pushed on however, and with the use of the 'hassle opponents' and 'get ball forward' shouts started to look more of a threat ourselves. Soon enough after these changes Celik (playing in the absence of the injured Sigthorsson), breaking the offside trap, was played through one-on-one with Casillas, whom he darted past to fire into a now vacant net. The equaliser came a few minutes later from a corner, with the ever dependable centre-half Jim Larsen getting up at the near post to head home. Madrid looked rattled at this point and we threatened to score more, but unfortunately it just wouldn't happen, as chances were narrowly missed and goal-saving blocks made. Into the second half and we contrived to concede again in spite of our superior play, Cristiano Ronaldo reacting quickest in a goal mouth scramble to put the visitors 3-2 up. We kept plugging away and looking for an equaliser, but again our attempts were being thwarted by the footballing gods - the amount of times we hit the post in the second half was bordering on the ridiculous. Also, Madrid (playing a 4-2-3-1) were beginning to look more comfortable in possession, bypassing our high pressing with ease. I decided a change was therefore required and on the 70th minute mark I made the switch to a 3-1-2-3-1 (same shape as in SI Sports Centre thread), substituting Lee Wallace - normally one of my most reliable players, but having an absolute nightmare against the Madrid AMR - and bringing on another central midfielder in Jonas Svensson. The change seemed to work as we absolutely battered Madrid for the rest of the game, with Vinko nabbing the equaliser in the 84th minute. Unfortunately we couldn't get the winner though.

All-out attack at the Bernebau?

I'm definitely going with the 3-1-2-3-1 for the second leg.

[vince89]

Just started up my 4th season with QPR (finished 14th, 14th, 8th) 3 games in I have 1 win, 1 draw, 1 loss after going ahead first in all 3 games.

The focus for me this season is to improve the defence and to "grind out" more results as I have no problems with scoring goals - so Ive been paying attention to the match statistics. I noticed that both my full backs are making 6.x tackles per games while my centre backs are only making 2.x - I assume this is down to one or more of the following:

1) My formation, a 4-3-1-2 is as follows:

----------P(a)-----DLF(a)-----

-------------AM(a)------------

----MC(s)---BWM(d)--DLP(s)--

DL(s)---DC(d)---DC(d)---DR(s)

--------------GK(d)-----------

My basic assumption is that the AI is setting out to play down our flanks, therefore the full backs are making more tackles because the opponent is attacking them more often than the central defensive players. Watching the games, this appears to be the case. The game I lost, we were esecially bombarded with crosses.

If that's the case, I've had 2 ideas to try to protect them a bit:

1.1) Put my BWM on the right of the midfield three, and set him and the MC(s) to high closing down so they will try to act as a first line of protection

for the full back

1.2) Play with 2 defensive DMs with high closing down so they can protect their respective side - this leaves my MC(s) by himself and I don't like how

that shape would look.

2) My full backs are committing to tackles too much, either through PPMs or player instructions. In this case should I set them to Easy tackling and attempt to train them to stay on their feet?

Both sides my full backs are well rounded with 15s in all the 'key attributes' (except crossing) the game highlights for full backs (they are M'Bengue and Zimmermann) so I dont think its due to them being bad players - seems more of a tactical problem.

Would appreciate any insight on this, as well as any tips on defending and holding onto leads.

[rvd313]

If you have the time then sure, np if not though. It was only so I can compare to other saves I have and see how we differ and see if anything I can learn

What stats do you need Cleon? Just key passes?