fman1 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Hi Cleon, I will raise my hand as someone who regularly visits your threads but doesn't post. I have found some great tips in your threads that I am trying to implement in my current tactic. I am playing a 4231 deep due to the players at my disposal and I am trying to get the DMR who is a DLP to dictate the play a bit more, so any tips on player instructions for your next post would be great. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Cleon any information you can give us, is very useful. Give us more and please don't take too long Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Sounds good to me, Cleon. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Thought I knew how these instructions work, but I can't find the logic with them on your WM tactic. So I'm looking forward to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Sounds good to me, Cleon. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Thought I knew how these instructions work, but I can't find the logic with them on your WM tactic. So I'm looking forward to it Yeah I thought they might perplex a few people as they don't really make sense until you look at them a lot more closely. So I'll deffo go into explaining them a bit more Cleon any information you can give us, is very useful. Give us more and please don't take too long Your wish is my command lol Hi Cleon,I will raise my hand as someone who regularly visits your threads but doesn't post. I have found some great tips in your threads that I am trying to implement in my current tactic. I am playing a 4231 deep due to the players at my disposal and I am trying to get the DMR who is a DLP to dictate the play a bit more, so any tips on player instructions for your next post would be great. I'll have a go Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomadeira08 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Cleon, the whole reason why I gave you the FTP account was to carry on creating magic. They are great posts and I am interested to see how things develop, especially your training and player development. At the moment at Dortmund I am re-training Bender to play at DC, Gotze as a FC so I can play him as a TQ, he seems to be scoring more goals this season. And Perisic a fitting poacher is also being asked to move up top as well as being able to play AML/C great to have the flexability when it comes to changing tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Cleon, the whole reason why I gave you the FTP account was to carry on creating magic. They are great posts and I am interested to see how things develop, especially your training and player development.At the moment at Dortmund I am re-training Bender to play at DC, Gotze as a FC so I can play him as a TQ, he seems to be scoring more goals this season. And Perisic a fitting poacher is also being asked to move up top as well as being able to play AML/C great to have the flexability when it comes to changing tactics. I'm in the process of doing a training update in the main thread just now. So if you have any questions fire them away Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Brilliant! It's very interesting to see how much the acc and pace of Ganso has improved. Also, hasn't Marcao's determination dropped because of tutoring? (Tutored by a player with lower determination). Never knew that determination could rise or fall on its own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I've actually added all the training bits I had done. I can and will add a lot more players with different individual schedules, but a lot are regens so not been at my club that long. And I like to judge them over several seasons to see how they progress. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Brilliant! It's very interesting to see how much the acc and pace of Ganso has improved. Also, hasn't Marcao's determination dropped because of tutoring? (Tutored by a player with lower determination). Never knew that determination could rise or fall on its own. Romario has improved a lot as well. It could very well be tutoring as it was Ganso who tutored him and he only has 16 determination. Good spot . It can drop if you don't fine players when they get sent off, poor perfornaces etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Cleon thanks for keep us update. Very interesting and awesome improvement from your players. Ganso and Neymar ar obviously the big stars and i see loads of potential in Marcão at such a young age. Now one thing that it's not related with training. I was looking at Neymar and Ganso match stats and Ganso despite having lots of goals, does not have many assists. I'm saying this because i guess you use Neymar as Inside Forward and Ganso as Trequartista. Neymar have a huge amount of assists and i tought that it was more Ganso job. Anyway, awesome achievements from both Edit: I was talking about season 3 because i see that season 2 Ganso had more assists Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Cleon thanks for keep us update. Very interesting and awesome improvement from your players. Ganso and Neymar ar obviously the big stars and i see loads of potential in Marcão at such a young age.Now one thing that it's not related with training. I was looking at Neymar and Ganso match stats and Ganso despite having lots of goals, does not have many assists. I'm saying this because i guess you use Neymar as Inside Forward and Ganso as Trequartista. Neymar have a huge amount of assists and i tought that it was more Ganso job. Anyway, awesome achievements from both Edit: I was talking about season 3 because i see that season 2 Ganso had more assists Ganso is a deeplying forward and Neymar is an inside forward. Ganso works his socks off but he normally starts the move. He will pass to Neymar or whoever I play on the right and then recieves the ball back and scores. Thats why Neymar has more assists. So he doesn't get many assists even though the moves start with him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fman1 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Hi Cleon, Looking at the schedules for your developing regens Rogerio & Marcao, they are both in the overall medium level. I know a lot of people who are trying to develop young players (under 20) would have upped their overall workload to heavy. Do you think you have missed out in any increases with a medium workload, or do you think it keeps them fitter to play in the reserves and get some game time as a sub in the first team? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks. I tought you use him as a TQ, now it makes more sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Hi Cleon,Looking at the schedules for your developing regens Rogerio & Marcao, they are both in the overall medium level. I know a lot of people who are trying to develop young players (under 20) would have upped their overall workload to heavy. Do you think you have missed out in any increases with a medium workload, or do you think it keeps them fitter to play in the reserves and get some game time as a sub in the first team? I don't look at the overall workload really, I just focus on the areas a player plays in. And no I don't think I've missed any development through training. I may have for Rogerio through game experience though but not from training. As for Marcao he's a first teamer and gets plenty of match experience now and this is the most important thing for a player to develop above all else. Plus you have to remember in Brazil you play like 80 games a season with an off season of 1 week. If a player is unfit, not match fit or tired all the time then they can't improve, they have to be in peak condition to develop. Thanks. I tought you use him as a TQ, now it makes more sense. Deeplying forward in the W-M and was in the 4-4-2 too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks. Looking forward to see more, especially the tactical part. Glad you didn't stop posting there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'll try and get something tactical up tomorrow depending on how much football I watch:D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Hi Cleon,I will raise my hand as someone who regularly visits your threads but doesn't post. I have found some great tips in your threads that I am trying to implement in my current tactic. I am playing a 4231 deep due to the players at my disposal and I am trying to get the DMR who is a DLP to dictate the play a bit more, so any tips on player instructions for your next post would be great. What's the exact issue you are having? Does he have to right stats to perform as the DLP? Have you watched any games on full and used the analysis tab to see where he's positioned and to see exactly how he performs during 90 minutes against different formations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojko Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon can you upload tactic and treining? I have read you thread but i can do myself tactic like you did Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon can you upload tactic and treining? I have read you thread but i can do myself tactic like you did No I've already explained why I wont to you before. It's a discussion thread not a download one. If I make it for download people wont learn or understand why it works the way it does or why I choose some the stats I did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 I've updated the thread as much as I can for today, hopefully its enough to keep you all going Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fman1 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 What's the exact issue you are having? Does he have to right stats to perform as the DLP? Have you watched any games on full and used the analysis tab to see where he's positioned and to see exactly how he performs during 90 minutes against different formations? Just reading your analysis tab posts. I will have a look at his average position etc and see if i can tweak his instructions and see how it goes. Trial and error and all that! I dont have a huge budget and have brought in a regen AMC who I am going to try and retrain to be a fantastic DLP. Giving him a training schedule and new position to see how it goes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Just reading your analysis tab posts. I will have a look at his average position etc and see if i can tweak his instructions and see how it goes. Trial and error and all that! I dont have a huge budget and have brought in a regen AMC who I am going to try and retrain to be a fantastic DLP. Giving him a training schedule and new position to see how it goes. I've won everything for the last 3 years and only got £6 mill each season to invest in the team. That meant I had to invest in youth and rely on people coming through my ranks. I'm retraining quite a few players atm which I'll update on soon. Now in the 4th season and finally got decent money like £40 mill to invest due to a new £80 mill tv deal and new sponsors. I'm still investing in youth though and only keep and buy players who I believe will make the first team at some point. Have a look at his analysis and let me know how you get on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon thanks for the update. Those tackles stats are insane! Do you get similar stats in other games? I mean i can't get my players to do 1/3 of those tackles your team does. Really amazing. Keep it coming Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon thanks for the update. Those tackles stats are insane! Do you get similar stats in other games? I mean i can't get my players to do 1/3 of those tackles your team does. Really amazing. Keep it coming Yes in all games they do roughly the same amount of tackles. Have you used the analysis page to see what kind of tackles your missing out on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Well, as i've told you by PM, right now i'm playing FM08 with arsenal so i don't have access to analysis page. I'm trying to recreate W-M formation so i'm really interested in all your info. I'm trying to get a similar attacking movement wich i guess it's possible with the diagonal arrows and sarrows help. But i guess the defensive part is the most difficult one to get it right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Well, as i've told you by PM, right now i'm playing FM08 with arsenal so i don't have access to analysis page. I'm trying to recreate W-M formation so i'm really interested in all your info. I'm trying to get a similar attacking movement wich i guess it's possible with the diagonal arrows and sarrows help. But i guess the defensive part is the most difficult one to get it right. I think I had the W-M on FM08 but the thread was deleted when the forums were changed over sadly so I cant provide a link Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon yes i've searched but i didn't find nothing. Altough your recreating it for FM12, i'm sure it will be a big help for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon yes i've searched but i didn't find nothing. Altough your recreating it for FM12, i'm sure it will be a big help for me Try Mag_Man I think he did it for FM09 Edit - Link for you http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/106245-W-M-Discussion-Thread.-An-attempt-to-recreate-the-historical-formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Thanks for that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Thanks for that! Glad to help Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeEp Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 do you use default tactic settings for each player? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 do you use default tactic settings for each player? Yes unless stated otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeEp Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 do you use shouts for WM? and the size of the pitch? thanks for your time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 do you use shouts for WM?and the size of the pitch? thanks for your time Pitch size just default and if you've read the thread you'd know what shouts I use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimness Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 You've mentioned before that you use players out of their position as long as they have right attributes. But do you retrain players when you use them in SCR and SCL positions? I ask cos in some saves I used true wingers and while they had AMR or AML positions as natural, assistant was moaning that they are being played out of positions and should be retrained to strikers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 You've mentioned before that you use players out of their position as long as they have right attributes. But do you retrain players when you use them in SCR and SCL positions? I ask cos in some saves I used true wingers and while they had AMR or AML positions as natural, assistant was moaning that they are being played out of positions and should be retrained to strikers. Well Marcao plays SCR for me and he's only a striker. I am retraining him though to AMR to make him more confortable to play in that position. But it doesn't really harm at all imo if they have the stats to begin with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake Appeal Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The one thing I would say about your training schedules -- and this applies to just about every set of training schedules I've ever looked at on these forums -- is they're pretty timid. The bar goes all the way to the right for a reason, and yet most people seem to build their framework within two-thirds of the available 'space', which leads to less specialization than you might require because the ratios are crushed. I usually start by identifying the one or two (non-physical) attributes I need to hammer, set those to 'Intensive', and then set everything else in relation to them, trying to hit a sweet spot around the point where overall workload ticks into 'Heavy'. But then I also make individual training regimes for every player in my first team and any youngster who might one day make it there, so I appreciate that level of detail isn't for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 The one thing I would say about your training schedules -- and this applies to just about every set of training schedules I've ever looked at on these forums -- is they're pretty timid. The bar goes all the way to the right for a reason, and yet most people seem to build their framework within two-thirds of the available 'space', which leads to less specialization than you might require because the ratios are crushed. I usually start by identifying the one or two (non-physical) attributes I need to hammer, set those to 'Intensive', and then set everything else in relation to them, trying to hit a sweet spot around the point where overall workload ticks into 'Heavy'. But then I also make individual training regimes for every player in my first team and any youngster who might one day make it there, so I appreciate that level of detail isn't for everyone. There not timid and just because the bar goes to the end doesn't mean its viable for each player, hence why I've now moved onto individual shcedules. You can over train people, did you know? The heavier the workload for players who play regular the more damage than good you do to their progression. I'm guessing you didn't know that though by your comment? Tired players don't improve just like they don't if unfit. You have to keep them in peak condition. I don't use heavy workload as its pointless in a 80 game season, the Brazillians play more football matches than any other league so its tiresome for the players and a lot of rotation with a game every 2 days morealess. I also don't use ratios as SI have stated time after time ratio training doesn't work as thats not how training is devised. I just look at a player then determine what attributes I want to train and then just focus on them. That's why I see more improvements for a player than anyone else who has posted their schedules and examples of player development. I get a lot more attribute gains in the correct places than them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 I didn't mean the above in a agressive tone btw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake Appeal Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Wow, you really don't like it when your authority is questioned, do you? I have played these games for about fifteen years now, so I am quite aware of how the mechanics have developed and changed. And yes, I keep my players in peak condition and rarely start a match without them at 99%/100%. They also happen to improve massively each season. And I don't use 'heavy' workload; you must not have read my post carefully. I am also aware of what SI have said about training. What I am saying is that as one of your players makes gains, the ratio between the attributes you are improving that he needs relative to the ones he does not is crushed by your training most categories more than you should and the few crucial ones less. For instance, if you dared to set your strikers' shooting all the way to the right and then use individual training, you would be able to pinpoint improve finishing, composure, etc. improvements every month or two. For my best players, the ones I monitor constantly, I set about building attributes one by one. I am sure your training is great. It's not as good, or as precise, as it could be. I don't mean the above in an aggressive tone, btw! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Wow, you really don't like it when your authority is questioned, do you?I have played these games for about fifteen years now, so I am quite aware of how the mechanics have developed and changed. And yes, I keep my players in peak condition and rarely start a match without them at 99%/100%. They also happen to improve massively each season. And I don't use 'heavy' workload; you must not have read my post carefully. I am also aware of what SI have said about training. What I am saying is that as one of your players makes gains, the ratio between the attributes you are improving that he needs relative to the ones he does not is crushed by your training most categories more than you should and the few crucial ones less. For instance, if you dared to set your strikers' shooting all the way to the right and then use individual training, you would be able to pinpoint improve finishing, composure, etc. improvements every month or two. For my best players, the ones I monitor constantly, I set about building attributes one by one. I am sure your training is great. It's not as good, or as precise, as it could be. I don't mean the above in an aggressive tone, btw! Where did you question my authority? Don't get ur knickers in a twist I understood your post fully, AND I explained I have now created individual schedules to stop over focusing on attributes that have gained too much to really improve further. Training is a progression and you have to constantly adapt through the seasons as a player develops. My schedules are very precise for how I am developing my squad in the areas I am focusing on. If you're on about the general position schedules posted then you've obviosuly not read the thread properly as I stated they were only short term and to get the best out of a player I'd need to create individual for each player, like I have done. You admitted you follow ratios so already your schedules will be flawed imo. I'd like to see your own schedules though see how they compare. Care to post em up? With visuals of them working on players you've been training, I'm always curious to see other peoples shedules and see how the differ and compare certain results. And its highly unlikely that you have everyone at 99%-100% every game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeEp Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 haha it's awsome... this really works! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon could you please send me some of your pkm's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon could you please send me some of your pkm's? You can't view them if you don't have FM12 though? Have you bought it since your message earlier? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Cleon i've bought FM12 when came out but recently i've return to my old FM08 save I have FM08, 10 and 12 in my pc lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeEp Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Cleon, if your playing with 10, wich position you take off? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Cleon i've bought FM12 when came out but recently i've return to my old FM08 save I have FM08, 10 and 12 in my pc lol I'll try and get some up for you on Monday sometime if I can find somewhere to host them. Don't really wanna put them on the site I host images though. Cleon, if your playing with 10, wich position you take off? Really depends on what position has been sent off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Cleon thanks for the effort. I would really like to see some matches. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Cleon one more thing. Do you use tight mark and/or man mark in your fb's? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 Cleon one more thing. Do you use tight mark and/or man mark in your fb's? Thanks Zonal marking for everyone and no tight marking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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