Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)

[phnompenhandy]

7 minutes ago, Kingstontom88 said:

'Shoot on sight'

I have never used this instruction and to be honest I don't see when I would ever want to given the erratic manner of shooting in FM18 - however, this obviously serves a purpose - is it target goalkeepers who are carrying a knock / they've had to throw a CB in goal?

and/or is it useful for trying to force set pieces to win a goal that way?

Needing a panicky last-minute goal against an opposition on full contain.

[Bigpapa42]

9 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This is a guess, but possibly a low reputation? Or at least, a reputation below a certain level.

Good thought. I know a low reputation player can't tutor at all. But didn't consider it could also have a zone where its high enough to mentor but not high enough for the mentee to want them. And that is literally the only thing I can see that separates this veteran from several others 

[Kingstontom88]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Needing a panicky last-minute goal against an opposition on full contain.

Thanks - makes sense! Although with the shooting I've witnessed in the game this year that may be counter-productive

[phnompenhandy]

7 minutes ago, Kingstontom88 said:

Thanks - makes sense! Although with the shooting I've witnessed in the game this year that may be counter-productive

As I say, strictly for panic measures, like sending up your goalie for a corner.

 

Obviously I write as someone who never uses it!

[LeonardSnart]

What defensive corners set pieces would you recommend for counteratacks?

[Vali184]

I just started the second season in Premier League. At home I'm playing a tactic that I developed since the preseason and it's working great, I'm winning games with 2-3+ goals.

top 5 players - close down more, mark tighter, tackle harder, shoot less often

 

 

Away, i have huge problems tough... I concede very fast. I'm not using the same tactic, but I've tried using 4141, 4123 dm wide, 4231, 4231 dm(counter/defensive mentalities, tried using retain possessesion+work ball into box, counter + flat 4 midfield. Basically, trying to convert to a counter/defensive system while still using a 4-at-the-back wide tactic. Any ideas how I can do that? Most of the time I concede many goals without scoring. Sometimes we score on the counter to draw(very rarely because we can't create any chances) and sometimes we defend for 90 minutes only to concede in stoppage time. 

[Bigpole]

1. I have two strikers, similar attributes. Should I set them 'different' roles like poacher and deep lying forward (more suited to the formation) or just maximize their potential and set two advanced forwards or even poachers?

2. How to really tighten the gap between defence and midfield? I have a diamond in the middle (DM ball winning mid sup, CM's advanced playmaker sup, DLP support and enganche on AMC). I set my def line higher (because of sweeper keeper) but the gap is too big. 

[Sam Smith2]

Quick answer needed for Work Permit players.

 

Playing Carlisle Utd in Championship 2021,so after Brexit.I signed a unattached South African who my scouts thought I probably wouldn`t get a Work permit for.

He plays for SA Under 21`s,so I figured it was worth a punt trying to get him,as he may become a full international soon.

He signs for me but WP turned down on appeal.He hasn`t made his senior debut yet,so can`t play for me yet.

I can re-apply for a WP for him in 120 days.

I have no feeder team outside the EU,I offered him out on loan,no takers yet.

I have a slow Laptop ,so just top 4 leagues in England leagues loaded.

What are my options ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[HUNT3R]

17 minutes ago, Sam Smith2 said:

Quick answer needed for Work Permit players.

 

Playing Carlisle Utd in Championship 2021,so after Brexit.I signed a unattached South African who my scouts thought I probably wouldn`t get a Work permit for.

He plays for SA Under 21`s,so I figured it was worth a punt trying to get him,as he may become a full international soon.

He signs for me but WP turned down on appeal.He hasn`t made his senior debut yet,so can`t play for me yet.

I can re-apply for a WP for him in 120 days.

I have no feeder team outside the EU,I offered him out on loan,no takers yet.

I have a slow Laptop ,so just top 4 leagues in England leagues loaded.

What are my options ?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Best to ask in General Discussion. This is tactics and training, as per the thread title.

[Wap92]

What is the best way to find out what mistakes my players are making? For example, I have a player in my squad with significantly more mistakes made than others and I'd like to find out what exactly they are and why they're happening.

[zlatanera]

Go to the tactics screen, "analysis", "last match", "view match", "teams", then select "mistakes" and it'll show you a bunch of dots with squad numbers on them, hover over them and it tells you what it was and gives you the option to view highlights. I'm not sure how far back you can go into your previous matches but it should be accessible through the schedule tab then clicking on a match. 

You can also view the incidents at the end of a match before you leave it, or by going on the individual player, and selecting analysis under the reports menu, then selecting a match.

[MeMyself2k13]

Question about Look For Overlap team instruction - does it only work when you have wide midfielders/attackers or will it work with narrow formations too, where my only width are wing backs?

I read a few guides and it says that it's meant to be used when you want your wide players to hold the ball until the overlap occurs, but what I want is my central players to look for spaces out wide, that my attacking wing back runs into.

I could use the Exploit The Right/Left Flank instruction, but I don't think that would help to create space - I want to give the wing back time and space to get into a good position before giving him the ball, I don't want him to get it early on and attract opposition players on him. Same goes for Play Wider instruction I guess.

[vasilli07]

I believe look for overlap works even without wide midfielders as I remember I saw the fullbacks mentality get increased with the shout.

[alanschu14]

Having a brainfart... IIRC, Ability/Potential star rating is for the team (not the current league/division) and I assume that that still holds true for this version of the game?

Thanks!

[Lucas_26_7]

Why is my player getting so many red cards? I am playing as Blackburn in the Premier League and have this regen, who just gets booked every time I play him. He plays as a RB so will obviously get a decent number of cards but he has got 9 in 21 games (highest in the league) as well as a red card. Looking at his stats the ones that I would think should contribute to a player getting booked a lot seem to be reasonable.

 

Agression: 9

Anticipation: 12

Decisions: 17

Tackling: 12

 

Is it something deeper tactics wise? (e.g. not getting enough support from his right winger)

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Lucas_26_7 said:

Why is my player getting so many red cards? I am playing as Blackburn in the Premier League and have this regen, who just gets booked every time I play him. He plays as a RB so will obviously get a decent number of cards but he has got 9 in 21 games (highest in the league) as well as a red card. Looking at his stats the ones that I would think should contribute to a player getting booked a lot seem to be reasonable.

 

Agression: 9

Anticipation: 12

Decisions: 17

Tackling: 12

 

Is it something deeper tactics wise? (e.g. not getting enough support from his right winger)

Look at his coach report, see if it says anything about "has a competitive streak".  If it does, that indicates a high "dirtiness" hidden attribute which impacts his willingness to make intentional fouls.

[Deserter28]

Am I better off hiring a coach with better coaching attack / defend / tactics attributes, or a professional / determined personality?

 

[HUNT3R]

18 hours ago, Deserter28 said:

Am I better off hiring a coach with better coaching attack / defend / tactics attributes, or a professional / determined personality?

 

As they're going to be coaching, I'd look at their coaching attributes.

[Hovis Dexter]

I work out the individual coach’s ratings and look to sign the one with the highest rating. When I have a choice of coaches with equal ratings I then rank them by personality.

[Long Islander]

When you get a tactics advisory from the assistant manager before the next match, when he suggests that 2 or 3 players are lacking fitness or severely lacking fitness, what is he trying to tell you?

A.  Put these guys in the starting lineup to build up their fitness?  ( I doubt it)

B.  Put these guys on the bench and try to get them in the game to build up their fitness?  (possible but don't think so)

C.  Play these guys in u23 or u18 matches so they'll be ready soon.  (Is this it?)

D.  Something different?

 

 

 

[zlatanera]

7 minutes ago, Long Islander said:

When you get a tactics advisory from the assistant manager before the next match, when he suggests that 2 or 3 players are lacking fitness or severely lacking fitness, what is he trying to tell you?

A.  Put these guys in the starting lineup to build up their fitness?  ( I doubt it)

B.  Put these guys on the bench and try to get them in the game to build up their fitness?  (possible but don't think so)

C.  Play these guys in u23 or u18 matches so they'll be ready soon.  (Is this it?)

D.  Something different?

 

 

 

He's just saying that they're unfit. For example if my reserve goalkeeper isn't playing in domestic cup competitions he'll tell me before every game that he's lacking fitness. SO yeah mostly it's B. and C.

Also in your inbox before you click "Match Preview" your head physio will give you an update on fitness tests like so:

If they've passed it will say something like "recommends player is limited to 45 minutes" or 75 or something. I tend to give this a lot more credence than my assistant telling me my backup goalkeeper hasn't been playing recently.

[kingjericho]

Match fitness will be naturally low for players with less minutes. You should ideally focus on having everyone match fit (above 90%) in order to have the players ready for competitive matches, and also avoid injuries.

For my backup players, I often have them playing in the reserve team to build match fitness - this is suggested by the Ass Man.

For my rotation players, I always try to rotate 1-2 players every week in order to give minutes to everyone, without compromising the quality of the starting XI.

[Conor O'Hare]

If I wanted to play an extremely low block....Would having two central defenders on cover be suitable?  I know I'm playing with a deep back line and have close down more off to keep my shape, but I'm wondering if two covering backs will drop even deeper and give the defence more solidity and give the opposition less space to play in.

[herne79]

22 hours ago, Long Islander said:

When you get a tactics advisory from the assistant manager before the next match, when he suggests that 2 or 3 players are lacking fitness or severely lacking fitness, what is he trying to tell you?

A.  Put these guys in the starting lineup to build up their fitness?  ( I doubt it)

B.  Put these guys on the bench and try to get them in the game to build up their fitness?  (possible but don't think so)

C.  Play these guys in u23 or u18 matches so they'll be ready soon.  (Is this it?)

D.  Something different?

 

 

 

He's just telling you the players are lacking fitness and so may struggle to see out 90mins if you start them.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Hare said:

If I wanted to play an extremely low block....Would having two central defenders on cover be suitable?  I know I'm playing with a deep back line and have close down more off to keep my shape, but I'm wondering if two covering backs will drop even deeper and give the defence more solidity and give the opposition less space to play in.

What's the difference between a regular central defender, a CD with a stopper duty and a CD with a cover duty?  The Player Instructions will by and large give you the answer.

Using a player in the DMC position as well as your CD's Aggression attribute will also have an impact.

[juusal]

18 hours ago, Conor O'Hare said:

If I wanted to play an extremely low block....Would having two central defenders on cover be suitable?  I know I'm playing with a deep back line and have close down more off to keep my shape, but I'm wondering if two covering backs will drop even deeper and give the defence more solidity and give the opposition less space to play in.

A lot of people would probably tell you that you should not do this, but I would say that it's worth considering. I usually play center backs on defend but tell them to close down less to avoid them leaving their position and open up gaps, and using two covering center backs could have a similar effect. You could give it a go, but make sure you have players who are covering the space in front of your defence, like a defensive midfielder (I would actually use one with lower closing down again, if the DM player is told to close down more he often ends up closing down players out wide or further up the pitch, leaving the gap there again) or two, or central midfielder(s) on defend duties.

[Conor O'Hare]

2 hours ago, juusal said:

A lot of people would probably tell you that you should not do this, but I would say that it's worth considering. I usually play center backs on defend but tell them to close down less to avoid them leaving their position and open up gaps, and using two covering center backs could have a similar effect. You could give it a go, but make sure you have players who are covering the space in front of your defence, like a defensive midfielder (I would actually use one with lower closing down again, if the DM player is told to close down more he often ends up closing down players out wide or further up the pitch, leaving the gap there again) or two, or central midfielder(s) on defend duties.

I did try it out and I have to say I've been fairly happy with the results.  I've also done it with an anchor man and a segundo volante right in front of the defence and it's playing out how I want....My box is very compressed and whilst the opposition are campted outside my box, they're not penetrating me enough and being restricted to wasteful long shots.  My only issue seems to be that my attacking threat from counters has taken a bit of a knock....Could be be because my 2 midfielders have dropped deeper which is isolating my forwards even more.  It seems to have the defensive structure I want.

I certainly wouldn't play like this against a very strong team, I'm playing as Man United and I came up against a Newcastle side in great form, to me they were clearly overachieving but I recognized if  played open football they'd continue to be a threat, but my dropping so deep and compressing the box and locking down the flanks nullified them perfectly.  I had only 2 good chances to score in the match but watching the match in full, they had plenty of shots as one would expect but not one where my goalkeeper needed to make what looked like a great save.

I then played similar against Shakthar in the 1st knockout round of the Champions League, and this time my team created a few more chances thanks to a tweak I made to a players role but yet again, the opposition didn't score, but they did trouble me more than Newcastle and DeGea made 2-3 good saves in the game.  So against a better quality opposition, the tactic held it's own but I probably could have beaten Shakthar if i played my normal game, I had serious doubts about beating Newcastle with my system.

Sorry for the rambles lol.

[juusal]

9 hours ago, Conor O'Hare said:

I did try it out and I have to say I've been fairly happy with the results.  I've also done it with an anchor man and a segundo volante right in front of the defence and it's playing out how I want....My box is very compressed and whilst the opposition are campted outside my box, they're not penetrating me enough and being restricted to wasteful long shots.  My only issue seems to be that my attacking threat from counters has taken a bit of a knock....Could be be because my 2 midfielders have dropped deeper which is isolating my forwards even more.  It seems to have the defensive structure I want.

I certainly wouldn't play like this against a very strong team, I'm playing as Man United and I came up against a Newcastle side in great form, to me they were clearly overachieving but I recognized if  played open football they'd continue to be a threat, but my dropping so deep and compressing the box and locking down the flanks nullified them perfectly.  I had only 2 good chances to score in the match but watching the match in full, they had plenty of shots as one would expect but not one where my goalkeeper needed to make what looked like a great save.

I then played similar against Shakthar in the 1st knockout round of the Champions League, and this time my team created a few more chances thanks to a tweak I made to a players role but yet again, the opposition didn't score, but they did trouble me more than Newcastle and DeGea made 2-3 good saves in the game.  So against a better quality opposition, the tactic held it's own but I probably could have beaten Shakthar if i played my normal game, I had serious doubts about beating Newcastle with my system.

Sorry for the rambles lol.

Just make sure you don't drop too deep. You can combine the system with higher defensive line, especially against teams that only play with one striker. Also having defensive midfielders sets your defensive line a bit lower by default and I like to counter this by often using a notch higher defensive line than what I would with a formation without a defensive midfielder.

[AaLF]

How late into the match does it no longer benefit a sub to come on with regards to adding to his future development conditioning etc.?

(particularly young & lower league lads)

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, AaLF said:

How late into the match does it no longer benefit a sub to come on with regards to adding to his future development conditioning etc.?

(particularly young & lower league lads)

According to a recent SI post, you can bring a player on at any time and it'll count. The more minutes, the more it'll count, obviously.

[AaLF]

As a match progresses players get pooped.  Is there a best practice with regards to sub-ing a bloke off when his condition gets below a certain level e.g. <60% left in the tank?

Question is aimed more at active positions e.g. wingers & wing-backs.  Do they slow up getting back into the defensive line as they tire?

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by AaLF

[kingjericho]

26 minutes ago, AaLF said:

As a match progresses players get pooped.  Is there a best practice with regards to sub-ing a bloke off when his condition gets below a certain level e.g. <60% left in the tank?

Question is aimed more at active positions e.g. wingers & wing-backs.  Do they slow up getting back into the defensive line as they tire?

 

They surely have a harder time tracking back as their condition declines. When my players reach around ~70% I start thinking about subbing them off.

For some positions condition is very important. 99% of times I sub off my BWM if he's at 70% or less, with still some minutes left to play.

[AaLF]

I've seen mentioned one can create your own team.  Seems too intensive for me.  Instead is it possible to tweak an existing team?  By this I mean change the club's name, nickname & home ground?

[alanschu14]

8 hours ago, AaLF said:

I've seen mentioned one can create your own team.  Seems too intensive for me.  Instead is it possible to tweak an existing team?  By this I mean change the club's name, nickname & home ground?

This is largely what creating your own team does.

I took Dartford FC one time and made it a custom team named after a Google Hangout I have with some friends hahaha.  But I still had the Dartford players, just with my own name and nickname.  I inherited their ground and I'm not sure if you can change that.

[kingjericho]

On ‎22‎-‎02‎-‎2018 at 12:35, AaLF said:

I've seen mentioned one can create your own team.  Seems too intensive for me.  Instead is it possible to tweak an existing team?  By this I mean change the club's name, nickname & home ground?

Yes. Download the Editor in Steam and you tweak virtually anything in the game's database: club names, stadium, kits, nicknames, rivalries, and so on.

[AaLF]

How to go about buying a decent young player?  e.g.  FM says he's valued at $100,000.   

I want him!!!  Now what?   What's best way to approach this?  Make an offer?  Make an enquiry??  Truly,  I feel like some dumb tourist and these slimy managers can smell I'm green & still wet behind the ears and they nearly always try and fleece me of transfer budget.   They come back with with anything from $2mil and upwards.  Yet i can read on blogs and forum threads gamers boasting how they bought the same player in their own save for peanuts.

Someone walk me thru how you go about successfully negotiating plz.

Edited February 25, 2018 by AaLF

[zlatanera]

19 minutes ago, AaLF said:

How to go about buying a decent young player?  e.g.  FM says he's valued at $100,000.   

I want him!!!  Now what?   What's best way to approach this?  Make an offer?  Make an enquiry??  Truly,  I feel like some dumb tourist and these slimy managers can smell I'm green & still wet behind the ears and they nearly always try and fleece me of transfer budget.   They come back with with anything from $2mil and upwards.  Yet i can read on blogs and forum threads gamers boasting how they bought the same player in their own save for peanuts.

Someone walk me thru how you go about successfully negotiating plz.

What did your scouts say his expected cost would be? He may be valued at $100k but have a lot of potential (which would explain your interest) which the selling club are aware of. 

Firstly, make sure you "remove and exclude from negotiation" the clauses for "percentage of profit of next sale" and "percentage of next sale" unless you're someone like Manchester United as if you're not the highest rung on the food chain odds are eventually you'll end up selling if he comes good and you don't want to give the original club too much of your earnings.

If they're asking ~2 million and that's what your scouts say he could cost, but he's currently valued at $100k I'd offer something like $250k up front and use clauses that will only get activated if he's an absolute roaring success like payment after "50 league appearances", "50 league goals", "10 international caps" etc. but you have to be careful that you don't go overboard. 

One last thing - patience. Sometimes you can get your man easily (I recently offered Villarreal value for one of their best players and they accepted without hesitation even though wasn't unhappy), other times it can take a long time (in the same save Christian Pulisic took about 20 different offers to get but by the time I'd unsettled him I got them down from over £120million to £50million). Mostly its somewhere in the middle.

[Pretended]

Hey guys,

I am playing a 4-4-2 (Attacking, Very Fluid) with a Normal defensive line and width, Higher Tempo and Close Down Much More, Run At Defence, Exploit Flanks, Look For Underlap. The roles and duties are:

• GK (Def)
• FB (Su)
• DefDC (Def)
• DefDC (Def)
• FB (Su)
• W.Mid (Att)
• CM (Su)
• CM (Su)
• W.Mid (Att)
• AF (Att)
• DLF (Su)

I have Vitesse from Eredivisie and play in Europa League which got me facing Liverpool. The first match was about to be a huge success, but did not, as they came back tracking from 4 - 6 to beating me 8 - 6 thanks to a few individual mistakes as well. Yes, the match at Anfield concluded with a score of 8 - 6, no kidding.

I also got beaten 0 - 2 at home. I am drawing up this tactic so I can put up a good fight against powerful teams with comparably weaker ones, so I am not okay with losing to Liverpool.

I put in lots of on-target shots, no problem there but, I allow a lot too.

That's why I wanted to have quick recycle of possession but I guess I still have work to do in defensive department.

What would you suggest I tweak to reach a more sound defence? I know with the mentality and the intensity of the tactic opposition, attacks are bound to happen but I want to constrain them as best as possible without compensating from the onslaughting force of the team.

I am aiming to emulate Bayern Munich of the second half against last week's CL match against Beşiktaş. They were constant owners of the ball. And whenever a flanker was ready to pass in or cross from byline there were almost always 5 guys looking to pick and bag it in.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Pretended

[kingjericho]

22 hours ago, Pretended said:

What would you suggest I tweak to reach a more sound defence? I know with the mentality and the intensity of the tactic opposition, attacks are bound to happen but I want to constrain them as best as possible without compensating from the onslaughting force of the team.

I am aiming to emulate Bayern Munich of the second half against last week's CL match against Beşiktaş. They were constant owners of the ball. And whenever a flanker was ready to pass in or cross from byline there were almost always 5 guys looking to pick and bag it in.

With those roles and duties there's no way to make this a defensively solid tactic.

You have nobody in the midfield worried about the defensive process. On top of that, you have an attacking mentality + very fluid, which means that even a player with a defensive duty is looking to attack.

I'd say 8-6 should be your common scoreline  

[McMinn]

My current tactic I play a SV - A, I noticed it allows me to select Shoot less often - but with the attack duty it already has shoot more often.

Is this right? By selecting shoot less often would that just cancel out the other, bit strange to be able to choose conflicting instructions.

[DiStru_]

Can someone explain the difference between Full-Back on Defend and Defensive Full-Back? Why would you use one instead of another, if you wanted to lock one side down, for example?

[herne79]

33 minutes ago, DiStru_ said:

Can someone explain the difference between Full-Back on Defend and Defensive Full-Back? Why would you use one instead of another, if you wanted to lock one side down, for example?

Basically the difference is in the Player Instructions.

If you're ever in doubt as to how a role will behave or the differences between roles, start by looking at the role description, the Player Instructions for the role(s) and the green Mentality bar found in the PI screen.

There are some roles which have additional coding which affects their behaviour over and above Player Instruction differences (such as playmakers who are coded as ball magnets), but a good starting point is always the description, PIs and mentality.

[Tcufrog]

Regarding training, does the intensity of my team training(I.e. very high, low, etc.) affect the amount of total training that my players are doing? For example, if I want a player to focus more on his individual training regimen, would it be better to put team training on a lower intensity? I’m confused on how training between team and individual focuses are allocated. Thank you for any help!

[alanschu14]

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

Regarding training, does the intensity of my team training(I.e. very high, low, etc.) affect the amount of total training that my players are doing? For example, if I want a player to focus more on his individual training regimen, would it be better to put team training on a lower intensity? I’m confused on how training between team and individual focuses are allocated. Thank you for any help!

It reads to me like it's additive.  Changing the intensity of team training doesn't mean that they will spend more time doing individual training. Having both on high will see grueling training sessions and possibly make the player feel jaded and more prone to injury.

[Mactier]

I'm a newbie with an oldie i.e. FM17.   Seems downloading an FM18 tactic.FMF doesn't open in my FM17.  Is there a solution other than buying FM18?

 

[Hovis Dexter]

Downloaded tactics are never transferable between different versions of FM. Each version has some different roles, PIs and TIs. The only thing that you can do is replicate the visible instructions in the Tactic Centre.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Hovis Dexter

[Carlos92]

Hello, does anybody know if a F9 plays like a deep lying  forward if you use him in a 2 upfront? I want to try something different

Edited February 28, 2018 by Carlos92

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Carlos92 said:

Hello, does anybody know if a F9 plays like a deep lying  forward if you use him in a 2 upfront? I want to try something different

Welcome to the forum .

An F9 or DLF (or any role for that matter) will play how his role defines his behaviour.  That behaviour is largely defined by his player instructions, so if you want to know if an F9 will play like a DLF that'll be the best place to start.

Your other tactical instructions and the player's own attributes may modify that behaviour, but the role defines that behaviour in the first place.

[Carlos92]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Welcome to the forum .

An F9 or DLF (or any role for that matter) will play how his role defines his behaviour.  That behaviour is largely defined by his player instructions, so if you want to know if an F9 will play like a DLF that'll be the best place to start.

Your other tactical instructions and the player's own attributes may modify that behaviour, but the role defines that behaviour in the first place.

Okay, thanks. I wasn't sure as I've only ever used a target man on the rare occasion I have played with 2 forwards.

[zlatanera]

Been having a discussion about this over in the Bilbao thread. What exactly affects the quality of your regens? Obviously we're talking Spain so being from an inferior nation isn't having an effect here. From what I can tell its the following:

 

Youth Recruitment

Youth Facilities

Junior Coaching

Head of Youth Development (I assume? As long as he's assigned the responsibility for bringing in the youth players? I don't actually understand how he affects it to be honest).

 

Can someone please state if I've missed any other factors or am wrong about anything?