Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)

[Braincomplexa]

9 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It's not that simple. In isolation, yes training 4 attributes means each gets less attention than training 2 attributes. But what if the first player trains twice as hard, or benefits from better coaches, or is training attributes that are easier to train, or training attributes that are more naturally inclined to improve, or training attributes that receive better/more training focus from the team schedule, or is simply playing twice as much football, and so on. It is also worth noting that only two levels are shown in-game, "Key" and "Preferred", when under the hood it is much more granular than this.

Thank you for taking your time to answer, especially at the middle night assuming you are the in UK 😁

One more quick personal question sir, would your prefer training someone in a role they'll play but not natural in or train them in their natural role and do additional training that their natural role don't target whilst playing them in the role I want them to play? So eg I'm training Mason Mount as a F9, never played there before, what would be the best way to go at it?

I've always trained them in the former way, train in the roles they'll play, but I fear that may take away some potential ability? 

Edit: Mount has nearly all the attributes for a F9, 14 or higher, irl I always thought he could easily play it too.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Braincomplexa

[mikcheck]

10 horas atrás, Seb Wassell disse:

Short answer, yes.

Long answer, only a bit and it's probably worth it. Players that are not naturally adept with both feet cannot train to become two-footed, they can only raise their weaker foot to a reasonable standard. Having a stronger weak foot does "use" CA, but not much, especially if you are not able to raise it to "strong" or "very strong". Being two-footed, especially the further you get up the pitch, is incredibly useful. I would rather have a Striker with "either" footedness and 16 Finishing than a Striker with "Very Strong/Reasonable" and 17 Finishing. Similarly, I'd take that "Very Strong/Reasonable" with 17 Finishing over a "Very Strong/Weak" and 18 Finishing.

Thanks!

[Vinay17]

What is the type of player? 

What mean that my player is considered a “leading player”

How this influence the tactic?

For example the creative ones work better in a offensive tactic?

Technicall ones in a possesion system?

Edited April 20, 2020 by Vinay17

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Vinay17 said:

What is the type of player? 

Basically what kind of attributes are prevalent in a given player. Is it his physical strength or his quickness or his aerial ability or his creativity or general tactical intelligence or technical skill or some mix of these. Some player can be good at just one or two of these areas but average or even poor in others. More all-round players are good in most (or even all) of these areas. 

 

1 hour ago, Vinay17 said:

For example the creative ones work better in a offensive tactic?

Technicall ones in a possesion system?

Not sure what exactly you mean by "offensive" tactic, especially as possession systems are usually also "offensive" (i.e. attack-minded) in essence. 

When it comes to possession-oriented systems, mental attributes are as important as technical ones. 

[mikcheck]

Hi. My tactic doesn't have wide players, so if I want one of my fullbacks to have that little extra mentality, should I use overlap or underlap?

[Sharkn20]

17 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

That would depend on if that gives them more time to train and play.

Development is based on a huge number of factors, but most important amongst these is training and playing. A part-time contract is going to allow considerably less time to do these things than a full-time contract. Take a look at a semi-pro training schedule, on average you'll lose 1 session per day and 3-4 days per week when compared to a professional schedule.

The professional contract that I can offer them are Non-Contract and they will train twice a week, but it will be the same in youth contracts, as the U18 team also trains twice a week, so does it make difference? To have them in Youth Contracts the longer I can? Or having them in Non-Contract makes them develop better? Or the same? There is no clarity anywhere where I can find an explanation about this. 

Many thanks again.

[Experienced Defender]

@Adonalsium I had to remove your post because it does not belong in this quickfire questions thread and requires a separate one. So please start that separate thread and you'll surely get some advice on your tactic.

Thank you.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Hi. My tactic doesn't have wide players, so if I want one of my fullbacks to have that little extra mentality, should I use overlap or underlap?

Wait a minute! How do you have fullbacks if your tactic (formation) does not have wide players ??? I mean, fullbacks are wide players (positions). 

[mikcheck]

32 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Wait a minute! How do you have fullbacks if your tactic (formation) does not have wide players ??? I mean, fullbacks are wide players (positions). 

Sorry you're right. My only wide players are my fullbacks,

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

Sorry you're right. My only wide players are my fullbacks,

In that case, both OL and UL will do the same to their mentalities - slightly increase them. 

[mikcheck]

2 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

In that case, both OL and UL will do the same to their mentalities - slightly increase them. 

So one or the other will be the same in this case? I guess it's only different when you use wingers?

Edited April 20, 2020 by mikcheck

[Seb Wassell]

16 hours ago, Braincomplexa said:

Thank you for taking your time to answer, especially at the middle night assuming you are the in UK 😁

 

No worries, always been a bit of a night owl.

16 hours ago, Braincomplexa said:

Thank you for taking your time to answer, especially at the middle night assuming you are the in UK 😁

One more quick personal question sir, would your prefer training someone in a role they'll play but not natural in or train them in their natural role and do additional training that their natural role don't target whilst playing them in the role I want them to play? So eg I'm training Mason Mount as a F9, never played there before, what would be the best way to go at it?

I've always trained them in the former way, train in the roles they'll play, but I fear that may take away some potential ability? 

Edit: Mount has nearly all the attributes for a F9, 14 or higher, irl I always thought he could easily play it too.

.Roles are just a way of describing a collection of attributes and a job on the pitch. Train Mount in whatever you believer will allow him to perform and development optimally. Personally, I train my players to capitalise on their strengths and/or improve their weaknesses regardless of role (provided it is in a position I want them to play or learn)

[Seb Wassell]

5 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

The professional contract that I can offer them are Non-Contract and they will train twice a week, but it will be the same in youth contracts, as the U18 team also trains twice a week, so does it make difference? To have them in Youth Contracts the longer I can? Or having them in Non-Contract makes them develop better? Or the same? There is no clarity anywhere where I can find an explanation about this. 

Many thanks again.

In relation to training, no. If you're a semi-pro team, their training time is limited.

[Tom14]

On 13/04/2020 at 21:22, brookie1402 said:

I'm a bit confused as to what the reflexes attribute does for goalkeepers. The manual describes it as 'This reflects how good the goalkeeper is at reacting to unpredictable events. If he has a high Reflexes rating, he will have a quicker reaction time to make more difficult saves and will anticipate a better position to make saves in general.'

I have a goalkeeper who has an above average score for reflexes, but a poor attribute for agility, which I think would be the more important attribute which is described as 'Agility reflects how well a player can start, stop, and move in different directions at varying levels of speed (pace). It ties in with the Pace, Acceleration and Balance attributes as they work together in the match engine, especially when a player is running with the ball.'

The way I see it is that a forward takes a shot which takes a deflection. A keeper with a high reflexes attribute can recognise the deflection has happened earlier and knows what he has to do to adjust, then the agility attribute determines if he can actually get to the deflected ball. Have I got this right? Or is the ability to stop the ball all based purely on the reflexes attribute?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this and how the particular attributes I mentioned work together? 

[zlatanera]

@brookie1402 I agree with your logic. 
I don’t know whether or not it’s correct, I’m not an expert, but it makes sense. You find really old goalkeepers like Buffon might have lost their Agility yet the Reflexes attribute still reflects their prime. 

[zlatanera]

@brookie1402 If you take a look at David De Gea on FM19 here, widely considered one of the finest shot-stoppers around:

He has 20 Reflexes, obviously, and also 18 Agility which suggests you're on the right track. But he also has 17 Anticipation - reflects the player's ability to predict and react to events going on around them - so I imagine all 3 work together.

If I look at my current goalkeeper, Anthony Lopes - a level below De Gea but his player style is Shot-Stopper - I see his highest relevant attributes in each column are Reflexes (18), Anticipation (14) and Agility (16). 

Of course ideally you don't want a goalkeeper to be particularly deficient in any area.

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, mikcheck said:

So one or the other will be the same in this case?

In terms of mentality increase, it's the same - yes. Not sure though if there will be difference in their movement relative to OL or UL. 

 

15 hours ago, mikcheck said:

I guess it's only different when you use wingers?

When you use both fullbacks/wing-backs and wingers, then OL/UL slightly increases the fullback's mentality and slightly reduces the winger's.

If you use only wingers (wide mids or wide fwds), then OL/UL will slightly reduce their mentality. 

[josel15]

What is, truly, the difference between a IF and an IW?
I have this guy, Rafa, https://fmdataba.com/eng/20/p/147142/rafa/

And I don't know if he is better as an IW or as an IF, I want him to be on the left, receive the ball, go straight at the defender, beat him and shoot, and he goes missing all the games, how should I play him?

I say this because I don't really know how to use players of this profile

Edited April 21, 2020 by josel15

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, josel15 said:

What is, truly, the difference between a IF and an IW?
I have this guy, Rafa, https://fmdataba.com/eng/20/p/147142/rafa/

And I don't know if he is better as an IW or as an IF, I want him to be on the left, receive the ball, go straight at the defender, beat him and shoot, and he goes missing all the games, how should I play him?

I say this because I don't really know how to use players of this profile

IF and IW are very similar roles. The key difference is that the IF is a bit more of a forward, whereas the IW is a bit more of a midfielder. Therefore, the IF generally looks to be more involved in the finishing stage of attack, while the IW tends to be more involved in the build-up phase. But apart from these couple nuances, their general behavior is largely similar. And the vast majority of players who can play the IF role can equally successfully play as an IW as well (this also applies to your guy Rafa). So which role you should give to a particular player ultimately depends on which one fits better into your tactic as a whole. 

[josel15]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

IF and IW are very similar roles. The key difference is that the IF is a bit more of a forward, whereas the IW is a bit more of a midfielder. Therefore, the IF generally looks to be more involved in the finishing stage of attack, while the IW tends to be more involved in the build-up phase. But apart from these couple nuances, their general behavior is largely similar. And the vast majority of players who can play the IF role can equally successfully play as an IW as well (this also applies to your guy Rafa). So which role you should give to a particular player ultimately depends on which one fits better into your tactic as a whole. 

Would you, for instance, pick Rafa as an IW or IF if you wanted him to pick the ball and run at the defenders and try to wreak havoc by shooting or passing to other person?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, josel15 said:

Would you, for instance, pick Rafa as an IW or IF if you wanted him to pick the ball and run at the defenders and try to wreak havoc by shooting or passing to other person?

As I said, that completely depends on the rest of the tactic (roles and duties around him, style of football you want to play etc.). If you want really meaningful advice, please start a separate thread, post a screenshot of your current tactic and explain what style of football you want to play - and you are surely going to get help and advice from people, including myself 

[josel15]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

As I said, that completely depends on the rest of the tactic (roles and duties around him, style of football you want to play etc.). If you want really meaningful advice, please start a separate thread, post a screenshot of your current tactic and explain what style of football you want to play - and you are surely going to get help and advice from people, including myself 

I'll post in a old thread I had where you posted aswell haha, in a few minutes

[Riven]

Can lower tempo + max pressure & d-line help to unlock defences? 

[crusadertsar]

Seeing how there is no more sweeper role in FM20, what's the role closest to it now? Would it be Ballplaying Defender on Cover duty or Libero on Support? Been looking to recreate Danny Blind's role in Van Gaal's Ajax.

Edited April 22, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Djuicer]

On 22/04/2020 at 04:19, crusadertsar said:

Seeing how there is no more sweeper role in FM20, what's the role closest to it now? Would it be Ballplaying Defender on Cover duty or Libero on Support? Been looking to recreate Danny Blind's role in Van Gaal's Ajax.

Maybe the standard defender with cover duty? and maybe ease off the pressing game and loose marking? anticipation is key for the sweeper right? With less closing down and ease of tackles the player shall be forced to use his anticipation, composure and concentration. Prefering to intercept and being on step ahead of the op. rather than tackle them. Finesse defending over brute force.

 

EDIT: something like this, you can also change the passing directness and passing risk to your liking ofc, oh well..then the BPD maybe suits better from scratch (if you feel its needed)..

Edited May 29, 2020 by Djuicer

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Maybe the standard defender with cover duty? and maybe ease off the pressing game and loose marking? anticipation is key for the sweeper right?

 

EDIT: something like this, you can also change the passing directness and passing risk to your liking ofc, oh well..then the BPD maybe suits better from scratch (if you feel its needed)..

Thanks mate! Both options seem viable but maybe I'll go with BPD because I have a suitable player.

[Adonalsium]

I've really been struggling to play with a 3ATB system in FM19. On paper I really want to play with it because 4-3-3 is so universally OP and the best base formation in all recent match engines that I'm just tired of it. Do you really need to have wingbacks in such a system for it to not concede a crazy amount of goals because the match engine is bugged out and leaves your central defenders too narrow? Or can it be played with wide midfielders at all? Am I just trying to squeeze blood out of a stone here by trying to play with wide midfielders?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Adonalsium

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Adonalsium said:

I've really been struggling to play with a 3ATB system in FM19. On paper I really want to play with it because 4-3-3 is so universally OP and the best base formation in all recent match engines that I'm just tired of it. Do you really need to have wingbacks in such a system for it to not concede a crazy amount of goals because the match engine is bugged out and leaves your central defenders too narrow? Or can it be played with wide midfielders at all?

You can play with wide midfielders and no wing-backs or fullbacks. But you need the right (type of) players in order for a tactic within such kind of formation to work. And then you also need to set up the tactic itself properly and sensibly. Just like any other tactic or formation, btw. 

But if you want more specific advice on the tactic, then please start a separate thread.

[Adonalsium]

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You can play with wide midfielders and no wing-backs or fullbacks. But you need the right (type of) players in order for a tactic within such kind of formation to work. And then you also need to set up the tactic itself properly and sensibly. Just like any other tactic or formation, btw. 

But if you want more specific advice on the tactic, then please start a separate thread.

Thanks. I've been trying really hard (and perhaps predictably failing) to make a system where my two wide midfielders push up, my striker drops deep to form a sort of partnership with a shadow striker / attacking midfielder in the AMC slot and two of my three central midfielders cover the wide areas where my wide mids push up. It would end up as a positionally fluid 3-3-4 shape when in possession. I might have to make a separate thread to really get into that.

I do have another small question though, about the difference between a Carrilero and a Central Midfielder with the Stay Wider PI. What sort of hardcoded behaviour does the Carrilero have here that distinguishes it from a CM with Stay Wider? 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Adonalsium

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, Adonalsium said:

Thanks. I've been trying really hard (and perhaps predictably failing) to make a system where my two wide midfielders push up, my striker drops deep to form a sort of partnership with a shadow striker / attacking midfielder in the AMC slot and two of my three central midfielders cover the wide areas where my wide mids push up. It would end up as a positionally fluid 3-3-4 shape when in possession. I might have to make a separate thread to really get into that

Please do  

 

6 minutes ago, Adonalsium said:

I do have another small question though, about the difference between a Carrilero and a Central Midfielder with the Stay Wider PI. What sort of hardcoded behaviour does the Carrilero have here that distinguishes it from a CM with Stay Wider?

The first thing you need to understand is that a hard-coded PI always has more of an impact than the same PI that is manually added, simply because each role has its own hard-coded (under-the-hood) behaviors that distinguish it from other roles. While you can customize a role to behave a bit more like some other role within the same position, you can never get it to play in an entirely identical manner.

So when it comes specifically to the carrilero role, it's a covering midfield role, which is something between a holding midfielder (such as CM on defend duty or DLP on either duty) and a runner (BBM. MEZ or CM on support/attack). CM on support, on the other hand, is essentially a runner type of role, so even if you tell him to hold position, it still won't make him behave like a real holding midfielder in the full sense. The same is true for the "stay wider" PI (or any other).

So these are the nuances you always need to keep in mind. 

[Sebas]

In general what are the difference between playing a Tetraquartista and an Advanced Playmaker in Attack duty?

[Djuicer]

9 hours ago, Sebas said:

In general what are the difference between playing a Tetraquartista and an Advanced Playmaker in Attack duty?

The Treq. takes less responsibility wo the ball. Just roams around for good positions, dosen't carry much (or any) water for the team.

The AP takes more responsibilty wo the ball, pressing, covering space.

 

The Treq. has more freedom and is supposed to use (even) more flair. The Treq. can also play as a striker, but the AP can go in central midfield.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Djuicer

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, USAMariner2020 said:

For the life or me I CANNOT get any tactics to work for me

You need to start a separate thread, because this one is not for that type of questions. So please start that separate thread (also within the tactical forum) and you'll get some advice for sure 

[Swills417]

How do you set it so your U23s and U18s DO NOT use the same tactic as your first team? I want to let the managers of those teams do their own thing. 

[zlatanera]

5 hours ago, Swills417 said:

How do you set it so your U23s and U18s DO NOT use the same tactic as your first team? I want to let the managers of those teams do their own thing. 

Staff -> Responsbilities -> [youth team you want to change] -> 'Play matches with this tactic:' where you can either set 'No Specific Instructions' (so basically the manager's preferred style instead of yours), 'Use First Team Tactics' (self-explanatory), 'Set To Formation' (one I like to use so I can then select which youth players will get games to speed up training new positions), or 'Previously Used Tactics' (which gives you the option of any tactics you have already loaded into the game with the first team at some point. 

[Djuicer]

Which role in the central midfield slot (middle, middle one) is the most creative? is it attacking playmaker on attack?

[Alfie31796]

Is it a terrible idea to use 2 playmakers? I want to use an AP in the AMC spot and a DLP in the MCL spot in a 4231. My thinking behind it is that if one gets marked out of the game by a DM, the other can step up and create?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Which role in the central midfield slot (middle, middle one) is the most creative? is it attacking playmaker on attack?

AP on attack has (arguably) the most creative freedom among the central midfield roles, but how creative it will actually be depends on the player playing the role 

[Experienced Defender]

39 minutes ago, Alfie31796 said:

Is it a terrible idea to use 2 playmakers? I want to use an AP in the AMC spot and a DLP in the MCL spot in a 4231. My thinking behind it is that if one gets marked out of the game by a DM, the other can step up and create?

Nothing is "terrible" per se. I personally don't like having 2 PMs so close to each other, but I know people who have created successful tactics even with 3 PMs. 

[quee]

51 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Nothing is "terrible" per se. I personally don't like having 2 PMs so close to each other, but I know people who have created successful tactics even with 3 PMs. 

I'm experimenting with a DLP-D in the DM position, and a RPM plus a Car in the MC positions (4-1-2-3 Gegenpressing) in my 3rd season. In my first 2 seasons, the default position was B2B instead of a RPM. I have the players for it (B2B), so didn't change it. Now that they are getting older to be able to do the role well, I wanted to try Mezzala instead, but didn't have the budget to add new midfielder. So, I'm using my backup DM as the RPM, which has work okay so far. The DLP and the RPM are getting decent ratings usually, but the Car is affected by the change.

I'm assuming this is because he is starved of the ball since there are 2 other playmakers in the middle of the field? What would be the best combo for the 3rd position, alongside a DLP-D in the DM, and a Car.

The only other changes I made were on the sides, 1) turning my RW from IW-S to IF-A or W-A, depending on the player. The LW's default role is IW-S. 2) RB is FB-D or FB-S, depending on the player, and FB-A usually for my first choice LB.

I thought the reason my Car was doing really well was because since the RW is IF-A, he's covering that right side really well on his own, since the RB would stay back as a FB-D. Those 3 were my most functioning players and in the ME, it was showing really well.

[Experienced Defender]

12 minutes ago, quee said:

I'm experimenting with a DLP-D in the DM position, and a RPM plus a Car in the MC positions (4-1-2-3 Gegenpressing) in my 3rd season. In my first 2 seasons, the default position was B2B instead of a RPM. I have the players for it (B2B), so didn't change it. Now that they are getting older to be able to do the role well, I wanted to try Mezzala instead, but didn't have the budget to add new midfielder. So, I'm using my backup DM as the RPM, which has work okay so far. The DLP and the RPM are getting decent ratings usually, but the Car is affected by the change.

I'm assuming this is because he is starved of the ball since there are 2 other playmakers in the middle of the field? What would be the best combo for the 3rd position, alongside a DLP-D in the DM, and a Car.

The only other changes I made were on the sides, 1) turning my RW from IW-S to IF-A or W-A, depending on the player. The LW's default role is IW-S. 2) RB is FB-D or FB-S, depending on the player, and FB-A usually for my first choice LB.

I thought the reason my Car was doing really well was because since the RW is IF-A, he's covering that right side really well on his own, since the RB would stay back as a FB-D. Those 3 were my most functioning players and in the ME, it was showing really well.

This is a bit too complex a question for this particular thread (quickfire Q&A), because it requires more comprehensive tactical analysis. So please start a separate thread in this tactical forum, post a screenshot of your tactic there, explain what exactly you want and you are surely going to get some good advice (including from myself) 

[Djuicer]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

AP on attack has (arguably) the most creative freedom among the central midfield roles, but how creative it will actually be depends on the player playing the role 

Thank you! 

trying to make some loose adaptations of classic teams. A lot of 90s teams fielded some very creative players. Example Laudrup at Barcelona.

Hopefully this guy is creative enough for you?  Kudos if anyone can name the player, 32yo in the screen. Should be a great APa right?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

 

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Hopefully this guy is creative enough for you?   Should be a great APa right?

Apart from the poor teamwork, looks great and absolutely suitable for an AP on attack duty  

 

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Kudos if anyone can name the player, 32yo in the screen

De Bruyne?

[Jack Joyce]

On 20/04/2020 at 02:29, jordan_ye said:

Wow, that is eye-opening. Since I just finished Michael Cox's book The Mixer and he used a bunch of tactical role names as FM, it made me feel interested in the development of those roles. Thank you for the informative response. @Seb Wassell 

Seb has covered most of it, we add new roles when we feel like we don't quite have a certain player behaviour covered in the current tactical system. Football is constantly evolving and new tactics and roles are coming in to play, so we try to be as up to date as possible. Some suggestions also come from the community which we take in to consideration. In terms of how we recreate the behaviour in engine - it takes a lot of analysis of players that play that role and discussion within the team on the best approach.

[DimitrisLar]

maybe an odd question but nevertheless a tactic question. Why every plug n play tactic has 3-5 PI's on at least 6 players? Is that so hard to make a tactic really work with less?

[Experienced Defender]

11 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

maybe an odd question but nevertheless a tactic question. Why every plug n play tactic has 3-5 PI's on at least 6 players? Is that so hard to make a tactic really work with less?

This is a question for people that create those p'n'p tactics, but I am not sure how active they are in this regular section of the tactical forum. Btw, p'n'p/exploit tactics are generally riddled with overkill of instructions, not just player but also team-related ones. I guess it's impossible to exploit ME weaknesses otherwise. 

[Experienced Defender]

@Alfie31796 Mate, as I already said many times, any question that requires an analysis of a tactic must be posted in a separate thread. This one is exclusively for quickfire questions.

So please start a separate thread, post the screenshot of your tactic there and you'll get advice.

[zlatanera]

6 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Hopefully this guy is creative enough for you?  Kudos if anyone can name the player, 32yo in the screen. Should be a great APa right?

Neymar? If so, I'm shocked to see he's already lost 2 points off Dribbling age 32 (unless he no longer starts with 20 in FM20).

[Djuicer]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

De Bruyne?

Sorry, close but no Neym-ar

5 hours ago, zlatanera said:

Neymar? If so, I'm shocked to see he's already lost 2 points off Dribbling age 32 (unless he no longer starts with 20 in FM20).

Score, good spot mate! think he have had some serious injuries, PSG had him under contract but I got him for free so they could cut his salary.

Dribbling overall seems to be hard to increase and to keep in the latest version of the game in my experience.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Djuicer

[Djuicer]

Trequartista or DLF with attacking duty, which drops deepest?