Football Manager 2012 - iPhone/iPad/iPod release date???

[Declan Barry]

Even 0.1% can still be £1m revenue, if that is the case and SI/SEGA sell enough games every year to cover what they feel is a sufficient profit then why wouldn't they?

Edit: Also expect that to go down when the Vita is released next year.

[tylerazevedo]

Even 0.1% can still be £1m revenue, if that is the case and SI/SEGA sell enough games every year to cover what they feel is a sufficient profit then why wouldn't they?

Edit: Also expect that to go down when the Vita is released next year.

But is it worth that £1m when you are losing £10m due to lack of Android support? PSP is on it's way out obviously. So in a couple of years developing for the PSP will be like developing for the Game boy instead of the DS.

[Declan Barry]

Well when the PSP code is the same as iOS and the game is built with all the kits they need then yes as it is still viable and making a profit. The Android market has had problems mentioned already (fragmentation) as unlike many graphics based games FMH uses statistics so cannot just be scaled. Also the code base is different meaning a whole new code which won't benefit the current games but also more time on this so SI will have to employ/train/redesignate people to build the game from scratch which takes a lot of time andwill have to be paying these people, but also they will need a whole set of new QA guys and several dev kits for each Android phone (which is even more money).

[rafafloripa]

Well, the 2012 game on the PSP is basically the 2011 game with a transfer update (which was already done for FM anyway). So it was a very low investment in terms of work-hours + cash, for an already consolidated PSP player base that would buy it anyway.

Sounds brilliant to me, business-wise.

[tylerazevedo]

Well when the PSP code is the same as iOS and the game is built with all the kits they need then yes as it is still viable and making a profit.

If it were the same, then the iOS version would be done and out by now. There are obviously differences.

The Android market has had problems mentioned already (fragmentation) as unlike many graphics based games FMH uses statistics so cannot just be scaled. Also the code base is different meaning a whole new code

As long as everything is based on interfaces rather than hard coded classes, then switching between devices shouldn't be too painful. It should be more or less about the same as adapting the PSP code to work on iOS.

which won't benefit the current games

It would indirectly affect the current games. The real benefit would be an increased profit for SI, which would in turn mean a bigger staff, a faster turn around, and a higher quality game (not that the games are poor quality to begin with).

but also more time on this so SI will have to employ/train/redesignate people to build the game from scratch which takes a lot of time

Building from scratch is not likely necessary. As I said before it should be about the same effort that it took to port the PSP code to iOS. And you would need to hire maybe one or two Android developers. And you can hire a monkey to test, or anything with opposable thumbs.

andwill have to be paying these people, but also they will need a whole set of new QA guys and several dev kits for each Android phone

All part of business, except you wouldn't need any more QA guys.

I assume they are actively pursuing it as we speak. Not making moves to get their product on the platforms that own the majority of the market share (or are projected to take over in the next year or two) would be a major flaw in the company's vision for the future. It's a low risk, high reward for SI.

(which is even more money).

Gotta spend money to make money.

[Declan Barry]

If it were the same, then the iOS version would be done and out by now. There are obviously differences.

Yes there is now as the iOS is evolving more but the iOS used the PSP base and now the PSP is using some iOS things. It is the same code.

As long as everything is based on interfaces rather than hard coded classes, then switching between devices shouldn't be too painful. It should be more or less about the same as adapting the PSP code to work on iOS.

The iOS skins were all coded from scratch as unlike many interfaces it is mainly text based which cannot be scaled as well (creates blurring).

It would indirectly affect the current games. The real benefit would be an increased profit for SI, which would in turn mean a bigger staff, a faster turn around, and a higher quality game (not that the games are poor quality to begin with).

I agree and disagree, I will leave it at that.

Building from scratch is not likely necessary. As I said before it should be about the same effort that it took to port the PSP code to iOS. And you would need to hire maybe one or two Android developers. And you can hire a monkey to test, or anything with opposable thumbs.

As mentioned the iOS and PSP have the same code base (C++), Android uses a totally different one.

All part of business, except you wouldn't need any more QA guys.

More games, more QA guys, more devices to support (x20 at least).

I assume they are actively pursuing it as we speak. Not making moves to get their product on the platforms that own the majority of the market share (or are projected to take over in the next year or two) would be a major flaw in the company's vision for the future. It's a low risk, high reward for SI.

It is up to SI to make the decision just it would require a lot more people to come in as while the games could share the same ideas they would have to be built by two different teams. It can be quite a high risk as iOS users spend more than the Android ones on average and with needing a lot of time dedicated to making the game, testing it to see it works on so many different devices and each one will have different bugs and the amount of money needing to be pumped in, as well as SI needing to negotiate licenses for players, teams and leagues it could be quite risky.

Gotta spend money to make money.

I agree but they need to see viability which I am sure they are doing.

[rafafloripa]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

[Declan Barry]

Was that to me, Rafa? I never said they are the same but the same code base meaning if Marc likes he can implement one feature into PSP easily (which he has done before).

[tylerazevedo]

Yes there is now as the iOS is evolving more but the iOS used the PSP base and now the PSP is using some iOS things. It is the same code.

It's not the same code; they share code. Sharing doesn't mean they are the same. Android would probably share more code with iOS than PSP version, but all three would share code.

The iOS skins were all coded from scratch as unlike many interfaces it is mainly text based which cannot be scaled as well (creates blurring).

Things seem to scale pretty well from iphone to ipad. Unless I'm mistaken, this is a universal app right? Which means the graphics should be scaleable...unless everyone downloads 2 sets of graphics (iphone and ipad) when they download the game. Skinning a game isn't hard...

As mentioned the iOS and PSP have the same code base (C++), Android uses a totally different one.

iOS uses objective C if I'm not mistaken, which is not C++. PSP uses C, though I'm not sure about C++. They are similar yet different languages. Either way, C++ libraries exist for the Android now, so really the difference in code should be minimal.

More games, more QA guys, more devices to support (x20 at least).

by QA do you mean testers? In which case yes they would need testers. I thought you meant QA guys, which are different from mere testers.

It is up to SI to make the decision just it would require a lot more people to come in as while the games could share the same ideas they would have to be built by two different teams. It can be quite a high risk as iOS users spend more than the Android ones on average and with needing a lot of time dedicated to making the game, testing it to see it works on so many different devices and each one will have different bugs and the amount of money needing to be pumped in, as well as SI needing to negotiate licenses for players, teams and leagues it could be quite risky.

It's about the same risk as it was to jump to iOS from PSP. Off the top of my head, Android has more of a market share than iPhone at this point. So even if Android uses do spend less, it will still be about the same revenue stream as the iOS due to the higher market share. So really, if it was worth it to port from PSP to iOS then it will be worth it to port from iOS to Android. And now is the time to start down that path because PSP is likely going to be obsolete in a few years, which will cut into the profits.

[Ceirdiff]

Android can run the same code base (C++) and requires less optimisation - the majority of devices and especially the newer ones are more powerful than the apple equivalents, my phone is half a year old and fast than the 4S, the new version will be even faster again, the Amaze will have a quad core, the list goes on.

[tylerazevedo]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

yes

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

Personally I don't care since I have an iPhone. I just think it's a smart move for SI to move towards developing on devices that will be there in the future.

[Declan Barry]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

[tylerazevedo]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html

[Your_Nightmare]

It has been stated on this thread that due to Apple is very meticulous about their app process, and because of this the iOS FMH2012 has yet to be released for sale. Just out of curiosity, if Apple has all of these requirements and compliance guidelines, why is it the there weren't any issues in launching the FM 2012 for Macs made by Apple? IMO, more than Apple being the cause of games not launching at the same time on all platforms, has to do which market bringings in more profit to SI. Obviously, we know that in this case the PC version drives their profit, and therefore it's given priority in the sale launch in comparison to his younger brothers.

[lodgrief]

Hi All,

Can I just ask what the release notification process is - how will I hear about it quickest? In this thread? In the app store? Oh the footballmanager home page?

[rafafloripa]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

Was that to me, Rafa? I never said they are the same but the same code base meaning if Marc likes he can implement one feature into PSP easily (which he has done before).

No, it was to tylerazevedo.

[whoismilan]

I am surprised at how many people are desperate to play the game alongside the current season.

I suppose I can see why this would be an interesting exercise for some, personally however I'll already be well into 2012 in-game the same day the game is released, and then any keeping up with the current season and January transfers and whatever will have no importance anymore.

[Marc Vaughan]

Android doesn't use C++ according to Marc. I may have misunderstood him though but he did say he would need to rebuild the game.

What I've indicated in the past to clarify:

* Windows Mobile7 is a no-go as it doesn't support C++ at all.

* Android is a possibly viable option as it allows bridging to C++ HOWEVER there are a lot of complications involved including (but not limited to) -

(1) Only partially C++ support in the NDK, some features such as typing etc. are NOT supported, (2) NDK debugging is notoriously awkward/flaky as the development system is aimed at using Java and not debugging into C++, (3) Fragmentation on the platform means that supporting all devices is somewhat complicated not just because of their physical differences but often the platform owners involved have customised the OS somewhat which can mean unsupported or unpredictable functions and naming discrepancies between devices.

I'd love to support all devices possible - but please bear in mind that there are practical physical limits to whats possible at present ...

[tylerazevedo]

All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same. They're not. And that's the main reason why the iOS is not out yet. PSP development was clearly abandoned, while we are expecting dozens of new features in iOS.

There are thousands of android threads going on on this forum. Please don't turn this into another one...

No, it was to tylerazevedo.

Really? Why was that directed at me?

A) I wasn't trying to turn this into a droid thread because I have an iPhone and dont care.

B) I was arguing that the PSP and the iOS are not the same....so I'm confused on why you said "All your assumptions come from the hypothesis that the PSP and iOS games are the same".

[tylerazevedo]

* Windows Mobile7 is a no-go as it doesn't support C++ at all.

I wouldn't abandon Windows Mobile7 just because it doesn't support C++. It supports C#, which isn't terribly different (although it's quite different) from C++ but would be a significant amount of work. I'm not saying "please have this done tomorrow" or anything because I will probably never own a windows phone. I'm just saying don't eliminate the possibility for the future because it may one day be practical to implement.

* Android is a possibly viable option as it allows bridging to C++ HOWEVER there are a lot of complications involved including (but not limited to) -

(1) Only partially C++ support in the NDK, some features such as typing etc. are NOT supported, (2) NDK debugging is notoriously awkward/flaky as the development system is aimed at using Java and not debugging into C++,

Sort of like using Mono for .NET on OSX, which we have explored at my job, so I understand the issue. Although Mono has become a lot more stable in the past few years, so I'm sure the NDK will get better in a few years.

(3) Fragmentation on the platform means that supporting all devices is somewhat complicated not just because of their physical differences but often the platform owners involved have customised the OS somewhat which can mean unsupported or unpredictable functions and naming discrepancies between devices.

In software, there is always a solution

I'd love to support all devices possible - but please bear in mind that there are practical physical limits to whats possible at present ...

Again, I play on the iOS, so it doesn't matter to me if these ever come out. I just think it's a low risk/high reward to get onto the Android platform. Given that SI has such good customer relations, I think that you guys would put the money to good use and give us users a better overall product. It's just a win-win.

I do think that the M7 version is too high a risk to develop at this point...of which you are fully aware.

So to make this Android business relevant to the iOS release date: you guys really need to get the initial game out sooner next year...which means you guys need a bigger team...which means you need more money...which means you need another piece of the market share...which means you guys need an Android version

[rafafloripa]

I think in the end the main problem of porting it to Android is that the amount of bugs/troubleshooting/issues is going to be so huge that SI will need to hire *a lot* more people to do the Q&A

[Marc Vaughan]

I wouldn't abandon Windows Mobile7 just because it doesn't support C++. It supports C#, which isn't terribly different (although it's quite different) from C++ but would be a significant amount of work. I'm not saying "please have this done tomorrow" or anything because I will probably never own a windows phone. I'm just saying don't eliminate the possibility for the future because it may one day be practical to implement.

I'm not saying "it'll never happen" - however I am indicating in the short-medium term it won't ... putting it simply we've a small team on handheld (two developers) and there are roughly 250,000 lines of C/C++ code in the game, porting that little lot over to C# will take a while.

(and yes I've taken a cursory look at the 'automatic porting tools' ... but none have looked too promising for that level of size/complexity so far)

Sort of like using Mono for .NET on OSX, which we have explored at my job, so I understand the issue. Although Mono has become a lot more stable in the past few years, so I'm sure the NDK will get better in a few years.

I've actually got an (as yet unused) Mono-installer on my Mac waiting to be played with ... love the concept, but expecting it to be somewhat rough in places.

In software, there is always a solution

Oh I agree - unfortunately I'm a pragmatic developer and very aware of time constraints ... just because something can be done, it doesn't mean its viable.

Again, I play on the iOS, so it doesn't matter to me if these ever come out. I just think it's a low risk/high reward to get onto the Android platform. Given that SI has such good customer relations, I think that you guys would put the money to good use and give us users a better overall product. It's just a win-win.

We do our best to ensure that our products are as good quality and as playable as possible - that in itself is one of the reasons we don't 'rush' to new devices just to make a profit, I'm sure we'll expand further in the fullness of time ... when its practical and sensible to do so.

So to make this Android business relevant to the iOS release date: you guys really need to get the initial game out sooner next year...which means you guys need a bigger team...which means you need more money...which means you need another piece of the market share...which means you guys need an Android version

LOL - nicely turned

Its possible the handheld team might expand in the future (time will tell) - but as with anything it isn't just "bums on seats" its getting the right people to do the job, hiring the wrong person can be very detrimental to a development team, so its important that when we bring someone on board we take our time and get the right person ...

[JoshIsCool]

IPOD GAME RELEASE DATE OF THE 21st November Leaked, SPREAD!

[Marc Vaughan]

IPOD GAME RELEASE DATE OF THE 21st November Leaked, SPREAD!

I take it this is just a random date you've plucked out of the air to pump out and see if you can get a reaction? ... good idea, nice try ....

(silence echoes loudly)

[Declan Barry]

What the hell - do you have a source or have the Gods gifted you with this talent of picking a correct release date?

[bbuullddoogg]

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so. Especially when the 2011 version came out last December and is available for peanuts and people don’t even know what features are in the new game yet. Chill out already. Go play Angry Birds or something!

[Joshua]

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so. Especially when the 2011 version came out last December and is available for peanuts and people don’t even know what features are in the new game yet. Chill out already. Go play Angry Birds or something!

Well, FMHi is not exactly a "little game". I don't think Marc and others would agree with such remarks.

[Declan Barry]

Marc told me something a while ago, FMHi has 40k lines of codes while Angry Birds probably has at most 10k. Not exactly little .

[coxy100]

A few things as this is getting boring now (will be quoted when it applies).

1. Would you rather the game to be later and be near perfect or early August with less features and more bugs?

2. QA needs to be done, this takes time.

3. Apple need to do QA and approve the submission, at Christmas this is longer than usual.

4. Apple prevent SI talking about the game.

5. SEGA set the date, it is normally Q4 for FM as it is around Christmas and with people getting money/iTunes cards then it works out for the app to be released just before.

6. Be patient, it will be at most 5 weeks as complaining means Marc and the other SI guys are spending time answering your posts (unlike other companies) and not testing/making the game.

7. If you want a FMH type game quicker and if you know all about making, marketing and testing the games please be my guest to do it.

1) I would prefer the game to be early August AND be near perfect. If that means missing a 'year' to ensure this happens then so be it.

4)Apple prevent SI talking? How do other developers manage it then? Have you ever visited toucharcade.com ... we get interviews from devs months in advance.

7) Why are you being pedantic. People are allowed to have a moan you know - this is a discussion forum...

It cracks me up that people are freaking out this much over the fact that a cheap little handheld game won’t be out for another month or so.

I wouldn't describe FMHi 'cheap' compared to other ios games

(and the more time I spend on here posting to try and calm you chaps down the less I'm spending actually final tweaks on the game).

I don't think you need to calm us down too much - we know you're working on the game Marc

[EmmaBratten]

I am eagerly awaiting this game! It feels a bit like when I was young and waited for Santa to arrive with my gifts. Be it so that the game comes out on Christmas Eve then the circle would be complete! :-)

[Jugster]

I'm perfectly happy to wait for the 2012 release as I'm currently managing in Italy which is surprisingly different to other leagues. However, it's a valid point to ask when and why SI is scheduling the game for release. There are only two main dates to do it. One in August to co-incide with the start of the season after the summer lay-off so everyone is excited about the game again, or in December because sales benefit from a Christmas boom.

The debate over taking longer to get the bugs out etc is nonsense. If you switch to an August release then you either hire someone extra because there is a shorter development time for one year only, or you make superficial changes for that year's release. Then you have 12 months again until the next release and you still get Xmas sales and a january update is better timed. So, the question is, does actually releasing the game for Christmas create more sales than an August release and a Christmas promotion? I cannot image any relatives buying the iOS version to gift to young Johnny on his iOs device. They can't gift wrap it, it isn't physical so it simply will not happen. No-one is going to buy FHMi as a gift for a friend or relative. Yes, I can see they can hand over an iTunes gift card, and that might be spent on FHMi by new customers, but how many when face with an entire iTunes store of content to choose from?

So, is it just people feeling joyous with the spirit of buying and trying something new while they are at it? Are there really any new consumers, who, busy buying presents for everyone else, suddenly decides that they will buy FHMi for themselves, because it's Christmas? Because the regular customers, your fan base, will buy it regardless. The casual customer is most likely to want to buy it when interest is highest - and that's the start of the season and the end when all the drama happens, not Christmas.

Anyway, looking forward to the 2012 release regardless

[Ceirdiff]

Marc told me something a while ago, FMHi has 40k lines of codes while Angry Birds probably has at most 10k. Not exactly little .

Are you joking? I made a game in a weekend for a competition: 2k lines of code. 40k is barely anything, you can punch that out within a week or two even by yourself - I heard Marc quote 250k lines in several places though.

[Declan Barry]

Damn iPhone, I am sure he said 400k but autocorrect had other ideas.

1) I would prefer the game to be early August AND be near perfect. If that means missing a 'year' to ensure this happens then so be it.

4)Apple prevent SI talking? How do other developers manage it then? Have you ever visited toucharcade.com ... we get interviews from devs months in advance.

7) Why are you being pedantic. People are allowed to have a moan you know - this is a discussion forum...

1) From a marketing point of view a before Christmas release is normally the way to go for several games.

4) That is what Miles has said to me personally face to face, Marc has reiterated this on MSN too. I cannot tell you more than that.

7) Not being pedantic but people are overlooking so many things when having a go when in reality they cannot make a game like pong no matter FMH.

[Marc Vaughan]

Are you joking? I made a game in a weekend for a competition: 2k lines of code. 40k is barely anything, you can punch that out within a week or two even by yourself - I heard Marc quote 250k lines in several places though.

FMHi has at least 250k lines of code in it, haven't counted the number for quite a while now ....

Although I'd equally argue that 40k lines of code is a fairly complex program and personally I'd try not to crunch something like that out in a week myself - its possible, but if you do it then theres a reasonable chance the code you're making isn't going to be the most robust/flexible in the world - bear in mind that the code in our games has to survive the test of time, most of our products evolve for a minimum of 5-6 years, FMH was released for the first time in 2006 (if I remember right) and first code written around 2005, code from that era is still present in the game released today in 2012 ... when you're writing code with that sort of evolution timeframe writing it sensibly (ie. so its easy to understand) and ensuring its flexible is arguably more important than anything else.

[Ceirdiff]

Pong is a hard game to make...working out the angles of reflection and a decent AI is a pain xD (although I saw someones code which did a graphical one is 3 lines of python/pygame...

Unfortunately 4 is correct - I guess Apple don't want to be hated for rejecting some overhyped app.

And Marc, your definitely right, in one of my pet projects (another management game^^) then I'm working more on readability and class structure alongside a very modular approach. Obviously in a weekend game contest it's going to be slightly different though - the game is unlikely to be touched afterwords, and if it is popular I'd end up doing a complete code rewrite. A lot of space was dedicated to different class attributes inheritting from a main class, I'd probably have some format for that which would save space.

Of course, it was just a point I was trying to make that 40k isn't a huge amount. (Someone should check out the size of some pyweek entries, in my latest my map format was just a class: 48 maps x 15 tiles high = 720 lines of code for maps not including map scripts, map meta-data, etc. - this was an old school platformer to).

[trundley]

FMHi has at least 250k lines of code in it, haven't counted the number for quite a while now ....

Although I'd equally argue that 40k lines of code is a fairly complex program and personally I'd try not to crunch something like that out in a week myself - its possible, but if you do it then theres a reasonable chance the code you're making isn't going to be the most robust/flexible in the world - bear in mind that the code in our games has to survive the test of time, most of our products evolve for a minimum of 5-6 years, FMH was released for the first time in 2006 (if I remember right) and first code written around 2005, code from that era is still present in the game released today in 2012 ... when you're writing code with that sort of evolution timeframe writing it sensibly (ie. so its easy to understand) and ensuring its flexible is arguably more important than anything else.

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!

Sorry, someone had to.

Also, are there going to be any new player atributes or a revamped training scheme?

[Declan Barry]

He cannot reveal anything, sorry. However about attributes I am going to take a guess and say no as they aren't in the PSP version.

[burdinho]

Marc

So if I was to buy one version of FM2012 - in terms of depth, would it be on the 3GS or PSP?

[JoshIsCool]

Alright no need to be an idiot about it, It was on a sega interview actually so dont get knickers in a twist mate, You shouldnt even work for sports interactive, You have no respect for other people, KTHANKSBI.

[Declan Barry]

Link to this interview please?

FYI Marc is one of the nicest and most respectful people I have the pleasure to talk to every day, the criticism he gets is unfair and not deserved in the slightest as he is a top bloke.

[Marc Vaughan]

Alright no need to be an idiot about it, It was on a sega interview actually so dont get knickers in a twist mate, You shouldnt even work for sports interactive, You have no respect for other people, KTHANKSBI.

Its very unlikely to have been on a SEGA interview. If you believe I am incorrect then please post an URL to the interview you mention and I'll make certain its taken down as obviously we don't want incorrect information being posted online - but SEGA are very strict in their policies for such things.

I'm trying to be 'mellow' about things generally as its flattering to our games that people are excited and want them released .... but .... posting unsubstantiated claims about random release dates (especially incorrect ones) isn't a good way to make friends and influence people.