FM2012 difficulty.

[KUBI]

You see, thats where you and me are diffrent. Ill agree with you that you can say something like that. For you its best FM so far, thats nice. Probably first time in 10 years you won some competition and now you are happy like a child when you give him candy.

I always start at the very bottom in a custom league where you can't win anything in the first one or two seasons. So please stopp making assumption otherwise I see no point in reading your posts anymore.

[Matej]

There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all

I dont care about conspiracy at all. All i want is game with more challenge. Other games can do it, Football Manager can do it too. But if we dont write about AI problems, things wont change. And i agree that AI isnt unique to FM12. But i remember the days when i got promoted with AS Saint-Étienne and next year i was relegated. It was like 8-10 years ago ( real life). From that version, which was really hard 2 beat, game is getting easier and easier.

[hatmab123]

The game isnt any easier than FM11, what im achieving now i could do in FM11, and before that. But it is far more intuitive that FM11, and some of those who couldnt overachieve before, seem to be able to now.

The AI does need work, right across the board, but it isnt unique to FM12. There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all

I don't believe in a grand conspiracy either. I simply feel that SI have slightly taken their collective eyes off the ball. What Erimus1876 said is spot on. Surely in any game you shouldn't be able to continually win games/trophies without requiring some greater level of input from the game player? A game aimed at (very) young children would do that for sure - but something that is claiming in their own marketing to be "immersive" and "realistic" should not be "winnable" in as straightforward a manner as it currently is.

Therefore, my only "conspiracy theory" is that perhaps SI want the game to be all things to all people. Easy to play for the younger players but looking the part for more experienced players. The problem is that looking the part is not sufficient. An old Glasgow saying of "mutton dressed as lamb" comes to mind.

[speedas]

I'm not sure if they're quantitative numbers, meaning the higher the number the better the team is in that category, or if they instead represent a sliding scale of tendency, with 10 being the middle, and 1 and 20 the far extremes of little tendancy to full tendancy.

If they're tendancies then it doesn't make much sense since surely its the managers tactical attributes that should dictate how a team plays and there would be no use in having these numbers in game. If they're quantitative numbers then perhaps they're a 'base level' and a managers attributes would then add to them, enhancing them even further? I'm not 100% sure. SI labeling them Tactical Attributes, and not Tactical Tendancies, makes me think they're quantitative and have little to do with AI managers individual tactical attributes except acting as 'enhancers'.

This post was one of the ones that got me thinking TA's could be one of the causes of the easy games people are experiencing:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/284254-Let-s-figure-this-out..-I-think-I-m-onto-something

Also if they're tendancies and the game *is* tougher with the values I used in my initial test game, that could suggest the match engine is not very good at certain tendancies (styles of play) than it is with others. Not a good sign imho as it should be equally as good at all styles.

As far as I know they are fixed and do not change once your game starts. However, if they are dynamic and change from season to season this could explain "second season syndrome" were sometimes you have a much tougher 2nd season after dominating your first (I'm not convinced the AI 'learns' your tactic as some people suggest as being the cause of 2nd season syndrome - not convinced at all).

Thank for your anwser

I think AI learns sometimes your tactic (for example, in quarter finals second lag, Valencia use a very high pressing because my goalkeeper usually pass shortly to my defenders, i was forced to use long passes, I was very surprised by that, during many times i never have problems with that)

I remember studying the coaches of FM 2007, this was my theory :

Current Ability (200) coach's overall average

Potential Ability (200) maximum overall average that can be achieved by the coach

Current Reputation (200)

Home Reputation (200) it must always be bigger than the world reputation

World reputation (200)

Management :

Man Management (100) ability to manage a group correctly with status squad

Motivating (100) ability to ensure that the players give one's best, ability to use moral and motivation function before, during and after a game.

Determination (100) ability to be regular in his effectiveness

Tactical Knowledge (100) ability to make the good decision (similar to decision attribute for players) like choose offside or not, target man, when must use time wasting, etc.

Flexibility (20) tendancy to change tactic, tendancy to change his tendancies to adapt his tactic to his squad

Level of Discipline (20) ability to change a status squad player without he becomes angry

Immixtion (20) ability to ???

Mind Games, psychology (20) ability to use the criticism of players function

Sitting back (20) tendancy to be patient and change tactic in real time, more the rating is high, more he gives orders and change his tactic during a game.

Patience (20) tendancy to change the status squad of a player. More his rating is poor, more he will change the status squad of his players.

Resources (20) ability to keep influence on his players in time. More his rating is high, more he will stay longer in his club.

Squad Building :

Buying Players (20) ability to build a balanced squad

Judging Player Ability (20) ability to evaluate the current ability rating.

Judging Player Potential (20) ability to evaluate the potential ability rating.

Business sense (20) tendancy to spend a lot of money without taking into account tendancies of the market (if the rating is unless 10) or negociate the best price as possible (if the rating is more than 10)

Use of squad :

Squad Rotation (20) tendancy to change players each match

Use of subs (20) tendancy ?

Working with Youngsters (20) tendancy to use young players even if they're currently poor

Training :

Hardness of training (workload) (20) tendancy to increase the intensity of the training (more it's high, more his players will be injured)

Technique (20) tendancy to make training more technical (+10) or more physical (-10)

field players (100) ???

goalkeepers (100) ???

Coaching Mental (20) ability

Coaching Tactical (20) ability

Coaching Attacking (20) ability

Coaching Defending (20) ability

Coaching Fitness (20) ability

Coaching Technical (20) ability

Kine (20) ability

Tactic (/20) :

Attacking (mentality in FM) tendancy to take offensives risks (+10) or choose defensive mentality (-10)

Free roles (Creative freedom) tendancy to give freedom to his players

Directness (passing style) tendancy to make long passes for a more direct football (+10) or little passes for keep possession (-10)

Tempo (tempo) tendancy to take a low tempo (-10) or quick tempo (+10)

Widht (width) tendancy to use the wings (+10) or use a little space (-10)

Marking : tendancy to chose an individual marking.(-10 means zonal marking, +10 individual marking)

Pressing (20) tendancy to use pressing

Depth (20) tendancy

Offside (defensive line) tendancy to play high (+10) or deep (-10)

Use of Playmaker (20) tendancy to use a playmaker

Flamboyancy (20) tendancy to take risks even if he leads he score ???

Conclusion for some AI coaches during a party :

José Mourinho (Chelsea)

Mentality (normal) +3

Creative Freedom (high) +4

Passing style (normal) 0

Tempo (normal) 0

Width (very large) +9

Pressing (high) +7

Marking (individual) +1

Offside (no) +2

Depth (counter attack) +7

Use of playmaker (yes) +7

Rafa Benitez (Barcelona)

Mentality (normal) 0

Creative Freedom (rarely) -3

Passing style (normal) +1

Tempo (normal) +3

Width (large) +5

Pressing (low) -1

Marking (zonal marking) -7

Play offside (no) -5

Depth (counter attack) +7

Use of playmaker (yes) +8

Franck Rijkaard (Valencia)

Mentality (offensive) +6

Creative Freedom (high) +6

Passing style (short) -5

Tempo (quick) +4

Width (large) +8

Pressing (high) +5

Marking (zonal marking) -4

Play offside (no) -1

Depth (normal) -1

Use of playmaker (yes) +7

Fatih Terim (Inter)

Mentality (offensive) +7

Creative Freedom (high) +4

Passing style (direct) +5

Tempo (normal) -2

Width (large) -1

Pressing (very high) +9

Marking (zonal marking) 10

Play offside (no) -1

Depth (possession) -4

Use of playmaker (yes) +10

Javier Aguirre (Fiorentina)

Mentality (normal) +1

Creative Freedom (often) +5

Passing style (normal) +4

Tempo (normal) +3

Width (close) -7

Pressing (normal) -1

Marking (Marking individual) +6

Play offside (no) 0

Depth (counter attack) +7

Use of playmaker (yes) +4

Felix Magath (Manchester Utd)

Mentality (offensive) +5

Creative Freedom (normal) +2

Passing style (normal) +3

Tempo (quick) +5

Width (close) -7

Pressing (high) +6

Marking (zonal marking) -2

Play offside (no) -2

Depth (normal) +1

Use of playmaker (yes) +4

Sinisa Mihajlovic (Werder Bremen)

Mentality (normal) -3

Creative Freedom (high) +5

Passing style (normal) +2

Tempo (quick) +6

Width (close) -3

Pressing (bas) -4

Marking (Marking indiv) +2

Play offside (no) -3

Depth (counter attack) +5

Use of playmaker (yes) +5

But I never tested serioulsy like you, maybe i was totally wrong

[KUBI]

The game isnt any easier than FM11, what im achieving now i could do in FM11, and before that. But it is far more intuitive that FM11, and some of those who couldnt overachieve before, seem to be able to now.

The AI does need work, right across the board, but it isnt unique to FM12. There isnt some grand conspiracy behind it all

It was always possible to play the game "the easy way". The backbone of the game did not change drastically over the years, experienced players will have an advantage. But people are mixing two different things into this thread:

FM in general is to easy AND FM2012 is specifically to easy.

The first can't be changed in a patch, it would need an overhaul of the game, the second one could be an issue that could be fixed.

[hatmab123]

Speedas - wow! You need to get out more!

[themadsheep2001]

I don't believe in a grand conspiracy either. I simply feel that SI have slightly taken their collective eyes off the ball. What Erimus1876 said is spot on. Surely in any game you shouldn't be able to continually win games/trophies without requiring some greater level of input from the game player? A game aimed at (very) young children would do that for sure - but something that is claiming in their own marketing to be "immersive" and "realistic" should not be "winnable" in as straightforward a manner as it currently is.

Therefore, my only "conspiracy theory" is that perhaps SI want the game to be all things to all people. Easy to play for the younger players but looking the part for more experienced players. The problem is that looking the part is not sufficient. An old Glasgow saying of "mutton dressed as lamb" comes to mind.

But as KUBI said, people are confusing different issue:

1) FM is too easy in general

2) FM12 specifically is made easier than FM11 and before

There has always been a case for 1), this is always raised. I dont think there is a specific case for 2)

But the first issue isnt one that can be fixed with a click of the finger.

[speedas]

Speedas - wow! You need to get out more!

Fm is my only passion with football, the only game that I play.

[Tubbs]

SeanNUFC, you are right, his posts are great.

Seriously !! You guys need to get out a bit more

[hatmab123]

But as KUBI said, people are confusing different issue:

1) FM is too easy in general

2) FM12 specifically is made easier than FM11 and before

There has always been a case for 1), this is always raised. I dont think there is a specific case for 2)

But the first issue isnt one that can be fixed with a click of the finger.

I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.

In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.

This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.

Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.

Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.

[Matej]

I always start at the very bottom in a custom league where you can't win anything in the first one or two seasons. So please stopp making assumption otherwise I see no point in reading your posts anymore.

Please, dont read my posts, because im not so good in english, maybe its hard for your brain. I wish i can tell you in my language in personal what i think about your posts and what i think about people who dont think with their heads.

Now tell me this, you was looking my threads, there are 4 or 5of them. In 2 threads i was really happy and i was telling how FM is great and what things can change to make it even better. But you pull out just one thread where i said that its not normal that defender scores 20 goals per season( and i was right). So please tell me, whats your reasons to make me look bad?

If you missed point of this thread, its Q about is this game easy or not. Its not some personal arguing. If you have something against me, write me private m. And i can tell you there what i think about you 2.

[Erimus1876]

Thank for your anwser

I think AI learns sometimes your tactic (for example, in quarter finals second lag, Valencia use a very high pressing because my goalkeeper usually pass shortly to my defenders, i was forced to use long passes, I was very surprised by that, during many times i never have problems with that)

I remember studying the coaches of FM 2007, this was my theory :

I was going to first try and make all the AI managers excellent by doing what you mentioned in your post - giving them top skills in all the main catergories, but the problem is it would just be a short-term fix since they all retire after a while and are replaced by much poorer newgens. So maybe for a short term game it could work, but for the long term save its a waste of time. Hopefully editing the tactical tendancies/attributes for clubs will be permanent and work for both for short and long-term save players.

[themadsheep2001]

I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.

In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.

This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.

Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.

Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.

Fair enough, this is where i mentioned the increased intuitiveness of FM12. Not for you specifically, but perhaps others.

It has exacerbated the perspective that the AI hasnt been improving at the same rate at other parts of the game. For some (i include myself in this) it has always been the case, for other this (perhaps like you) it has been made more obvious. This is just my view though

But we definitely agree it must be looked at for the game to progress, and I'm sure it is.

[hatmab123]

Agreement reached in this thread - that must be a first.

[KUBI]

I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.

In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.

This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.

Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.

Agreed - a change won't be possible overnight, but it does need looking at by those at SI.

I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.

[hatmab123]

I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.

In the game that I am currently playing, I have signed nobody (players or staff), left friendlies up to my assman to arrange, standard training etc - and yet the game is still the same.

I am going to experiment a bit with things this weekend to see what happens!

[Matej]

I'm sure they are already looking into it. But what they would need are more detailed input from people like you and not from those who just repeat their opinion all day long.

When you start a new game, what kind of preparation are you doing? Do you setup tactic, training? Do you hire your own staff go with the staff already at the club? Did you arrange additional friendly matches? In all of those things could be something that makes FM2012 easier for you than FM2011 was.

About what we are talking about? Why he wouldnt setup his tactic, training? Because it would make game easier? People love to setup their tactic and hire good coaches, its part of the game, its not cheat. Even if we make our tactic and scout players, have trainings, it should be harder then now.

I will always have my tactic and training. Ill buy best players i can find. Ill give my best to win the game with no cheats. Ill always play with what games offers me. But that doesnt mean it must be so easy.

[grep]

You have to know that 99% of moderators and SI members voted for "game is just right", because thats their policy.

They are roughly 2 dozens

We can therefore say that the real percentage is around 35% because not all of them have voted.

[KUBI]

In the game that I am currently playing, I have signed nobody (players or staff), left friendlies up to my assman to arrange, standard training etc - and yet the game is still the same.

I am going to experiment a bit with things this weekend to see what happens!

If there is something that makes it easier, it looks that it is not directly connected with what human managers are doing, it seems to be something that affects the AI teams right from the start. Maybe it's worth to make some test by starting with two different human managers in one game. One doing nothing and the other doing his job and see if that makes any difference?

[hatmab123]

If there is something that makes it easier, it looks that it is not directly connected with what human managers are doing, it seems to be something that affects the AI teams right from the start. Maybe it's worth to make some test by starting with two different human managers in one game. One doing nothing and the other doing his job and see if that makes any difference?

Possibly, although it would be nice if someone from SI would acknowledge the issue rather than leaving stuff like this up to the customers and making little or no comment. After all, I bought a game to play it not to conduct tests on it.

Rant over!

In saying that, I'm off to conduct some tests!!!

[ommerson]

I voted "about right" as I can't say the game is easy in the half season I played so far. Although I get the feeling FM in general (not just FM12) might need a slight increase in difficulty. I find that attracting above average players for the league you're in is quite easy in the first season. As a result the game got very easy in the second season once you had your above average team together, and promotion was very much on the cards allthough pre-season odds expected a relegation struggle. For one, I've never once been sacked due to bad results (only when I applied to other jobs too often) and have never been relegated (only when I stepped in when a team was heading for relegation already).

The lack of difficulty bothers me less than the lack of interest from clubs with slightly higher, similar or lower reputation than the club with which one is reasonably successfull. In 16 seasons of FM11 I've never once been approached by a club spontaneously, only by applying or showing interest in jobs did I get job-offers. I hope this is works out better in FM12. When I'm overachieving with a norwegian 3rd level club I'd expect interest from other clubs of similar or slightly higher stature, like swedish or danish 3rd or second level clubs. Note: interest from ambitious clubs with lower rep would be realistic also. Take the extreme example of Notts County signing Sven Goran Ericsson a couple of years ago. I've never once been approached by a lower rep club I didnt apply to as long as I play FM, which goes back to the CM-days.

[Kriss]

They are roughly 2 dozens

We can therefore say that the real percentage is around 35% because not all of them have voted.

Stop making up numbers off the top of your head, most Mods don't vote in any polls, I certainly don't, this one included.

[Kriss]

Can we stop the backbiting and can we stop quoting numbers as proof of something when at best they're an unreliable indicator and at worst are plain fiction.

[Loversleaper]

If I may, I know you can't draw conclusions on the poll, but there are two things that are striking:

1: the procentage numbers have been stagnate for a number of days now

2: the gap between easy and hard procentage is quite large

[JimbobWWFC]

I take on board what you say but my experience is the opposite way around.

In the past I have found FM to be just about right in terms of difficulty/challenge/fun mix.

This year is different in the sense that I don't need to input much (if anything) into the game in order to have a successful team.

Perhaps there is an overall issue to be looked at in terms of the series, but this is the first time I have experienced it to such an extent.

Reading this whole thread (trying to separate the useful discussions from the silly arguments long the way), I'm relieved to see someone else in a similar position to myself. On these forums you rarely find anyone who doesn't class themselves as world-beaters of some sort. On that note, I often think it would be very interesting to see how everyone performs if they started a large network game with each other.

Anyway, this isn't going to be controversial so I'm not expecting much of a response to my post, but I'd just like to contribute by saying how much I enjoy FM every year, despite not being that successful unless I manage a pretty good team. I always try and be successful managing Wolves but struggle each year, and often give up trying! This year, I have just finished my first season and finished 14th and reached the League Cup semi-final... the most successful season I've had with Wolves in many years.

I wouldn't say this version is 'too easy' (but it may be too early for me to say). I am just happy that the tactics, press conferences and team talks I used didn't ruin team morale and performance (despite the decisions I made appearing to be obvious). I feel that this in itself is a step in the right direction.

[grep]

Stop making up numbers off the top of your head, most Mods don't vote in any polls, I certainly don't, this one included.

Forum guys are intelligent enough to do not get influenced by me or whomever speaks about numbers.

If I have broken the forum rules please just assign me an infraction but please do not censure my opinions.

[Kriss]

Forum guys are intelligent enough to do not get influenced by me or whomever speaks about numbers.

If I have broken the forum rules please just assign me an infraction but please do not censure my opinions.

That's not an opinion it's a number pulled from the air to infer the Mods all voted in an attempt to sway the poll:D if we wanted to do that there are over 200 SI staff and several thousand Sega staff we could get to vote.

[Keyzer Soze]

Am i the only one that actually find FM2012 harder than FM2011?

I play CM/FM since 1994, and this is the harder FM that i ever play!

Im playing with Benfica, as i always play in every FM, and with the same tactic i create last year for FM2011.

Last year, with this tactic i won every portuguese league and 8 champions league in a 11 year save. This year i'm struggling to win and performe well in the portuguese league, and in my last champions league game lost 5-0 away at Real Madrid.

So, for me, this FM is harder! The other option is that i've gonna stupid since last year!

[Kriss]

I think the consensus is that there might be certain circumstances when the game is remarkably easy from the outset, it's certainly not a case of everybody finding it easier.

That possibility is being investigated.

[x42bn6]

The problem with volunteering samples is exactly that; People choose whether to vote or not. As in the vocal part of the group(Whether it be the minority or the majority). The method has a massive flaw. Namely, the only people who will vote are the people who are problems with the difficulty in the first place. As in the people who think the game is too easy. Those who find it too hard or decently balanced wont post as the entire view of the poll has been skewed horribly. Your intentions are good and solid enough; Something like this would help SI. IF and only IF the poll was balanced however.

The poll itself is fine - three relatively unambiguous options (I would have preferred 5, however), with an unambiguous question - no frills attached. In addition, the thread's title is unambiguous. The only real way it could be fixed is if it were random or perhaps the choices were numbered (which has its own issues with interpretation). If you are going to fix volunteering samples, it has to be controlled outside of the poll as well.

I personally do not believe in the bold bit - this forum is full of SI defenders and so is this thread. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone signs up on this forum to complain.

The poll seems to be decent, but the whole premise falls apart if you read the OP.

Hm? Here is the OP:

A lot of people seem to be finding that the game is too easy this year, with human players being able to dominate without much effort (see any number of threads on front page). However, SI are stating that they think the game is well balanced, and some players are saying that they find it challenging. So, here is a quick poll, to get a better an idea of what the consensus really is on this.

Vote away...

Certainly, the OP isn't overseeing a rigorous scientific study, but I don't think this OP is trying to find a flaw. He has simply observed the number of "too easy" threads and the fact that SI have stated there isn't a problem.

Sure, the OP hasn't approached it from a way that is mathematically optimal from a study design perspective, but then again, it's not like it is easy to do so anyway, partly down to the fact that the main blocking factor is the fact that it is restricted to this forum.

I personally don't see anything terribly wrong with the OP's statement - he presents observation 1, and observation 2, and asks people to vote away.

It's not what people think about the game, thats not what the OP wants to hear, he's not here to research what people think about the game. He wants people to simply say. Yes the game is too hard, no the game is too easy. He provides ample "evidence" the game is too easy, but completely ignores the other side. His intentions might have been good but the excecution of the whole process was cocked up so hard that the whole topic turned into a "+1" fest where people say yeah the game is too hard and high five each other. You're not getting any accurate results from the topic, all you are getting is the vocal group telling each other they're right, and the people who find the game hard/balanced in terms of difficulty providing their opinions and leaving it at that. Theres a reason publically accepted polls are done by actual marketing and research groups; They know what they're doing. This topic does not, it was biased from the start completely discrediting any value the results might of have had.

This really smells of ad hominem more than anything. Certainly, the OP has been vocal against a perceived "ease" of the game, but why are you assuming bad faith on his behalf that this thread has an agenda? For all the OP's beliefs against the perceived "ease", I think the OP has done a good job of keeping that personal belief out of this thread (the OP has posted once, as the thread starter in this thread).

SI aren't going to commission a proper survey for this. We simply have to do with what we have. A volunteering survey has its flaws, but do you have a better idea?

Volunteering surveys do have their uses in the sense that they are useful for gathering information and they are quick-and-dirty to perform. They are not completely discredited because they suffer from one form of selection bias, otherwise stratified random surveys would be discredited too.

This poll isn't aiming for public acceptance - it's here to roughly gauge a community and to point out a possible perceived issue in the software. I think it has succeeded in showing that a possibly-vocal portion of the customer base finds the game easy and in the absence of any further information a rough 30% seems like a rough ballpark figure.

In addition, the same reasoning could be applied to a theoretical poll of the following:

Is <Feature X> boring? (500 voters)

Yes (99%)

No (1%)

<Reasonable OP>

Claiming self-selection bias on this poll would look fairly silly. Sure, it might not be the greatest scientific survey of the century, but it quite easily gets the point across to SI.

You have a point, even random selection will have a representative bias, I'm not arguing with that; Any sort of poll you do is not going to be 100% accurate even if you poll every person on the planet as there is going to be some sort of bias or another. The problem here is that this thread takes bias and runs with it to the other side of the solar system.

I have nothing against you, i want this poll to be succesful and actually show results but the problem is that... it simply doesn't. It's two groups arguing amongst themselves and even if people in the same group have differing opinions they will concede to the general opinion of the group, if you hate the difficulty but think that it's not that bad? Well you still better vote for the game being too easy or you might just be ostracized by the same people you're agreeing with, albeit with a different "intensity"(Hello political parties). It's people who think the game is too easy vs everyone else. Instead of everyone being a neutral party and voting what they think for. THAT is what is the major problem here, it's not a poll. It's a war of ideologies.

I really think you need to reread the OP.

The question doesn't aim to show that the proportion of "too easy" is greater than "too hard" - it aims to show to SI that there is a perceived "easiness" issue with the game.

The question is whether this has succeeded or not. I think it has. As a software designer myself, if I saw a poll (even if badly-designed) like this, I would figure out how to fix this problem.

There is no way SI are going to commission a formal survey for this or indeed, for many things - arguably, it is going to be impossible to get a proper survey done. As a result, these polls are going to be the best we have got.

The OP's post is reasonable and his question is relatively neutral. The options are unambiguous.

There really is little wrong with such a poll except for the self-selection bias, but then again, it is difficult to see how anyone can make a more robust survey.

In addition, you need to get it out of your head that volunteering samples have no use whatsoever - opportunitistic sampling always has its uses, although it should never be done as the sole method of any sensible survey without a solid justification. Differences in this poll are interpreted in an order of magnitude while in scientific studies a tenth of a percentage can mean a lot.

If we cannot use volunteering samples to gauge the forum's opinion, how can we ever report a bug that suffers from subjectivity to SI?

[grep]

That's not an opinion it's a number pulled from the air to infer the Mods all voted in an attempt to sway the poll:D if we wanted to do that there are over 200 SI staff and several thousand Sega staff we could get to vote.

Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.

[SeanNUFC]

Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.

Yes, join the dark side. JOIN US.

[Matej]

Am i the only one that actually find FM2012 harder than FM2011?

I play CM/FM since 1994, and this is the harder FM that i ever play!

Im playing with Benfica, as i always play in every FM, and with the same tactic i create last year for FM2011.

Last year, with this tactic i won every portuguese league and 8 champions league in a 11 year save. This year i'm struggling to win and performe well in the portuguese league, and in my last champions league game lost 5-0 away at Real Madrid.

So, for me, this FM is harder! The other option is that i've gonna stupid since last year!

Im glad that you find FM harder this year. If you want easier, just dont rotate players, dont tweak your tactic, dont think too much in general, just click and go to the bright future. i always use my own tactic and its easy. But i heard if you dont do nothing its even better for your team.

And yes, Kriss join us m8. i can feel you have undestanding for our problems.

[KUBI]

Yes, join the dark side. JOIN US.

He is already on the dark side. Deep in the relegation zone.

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

If anyone else wants to test if further the database can be found here...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NZSI3XK7

To get a true test, you will need to lower the TA's of the team you're going to manager using FMRTE, or you can try it as it stands in the database and see how you get on having TA's the same as all the other teams in your league.

Erimus1876, this looks interesting indeed. I'm going to test out your database now.

Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.

(My apologies if there's a separate thread already and I've missed it...)

[KUBI]

Erimus1876,

Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.

That's probably a good idea as this thread is going in circles for a while now.

[DIJRP]

Is it difficult ??? please don't tell me that i've to play with a lower division team ...

[themadsheep2001]

That's probably a good idea as this thread is going in circles for a while now.

seconded, his early looks seem promising.

on a very very small scale, i made tactical attribute changes to pep, and barca (to make them more barca-like) and certainly against the AI they have improved and are more barca like (not played against them, so cant comment vs human player). So hopefully his hugely expanded test will do the same

[Erimus1876]

Erimus1876, this looks interesting indeed. I'm going to test out your database now.

Would you consider opening a separate thread for discussing this? I think the discussion could get a bit lost among the comments in this one, and it seems to warrant its own thread.

(My apologies if there's a separate thread already and I've missed it...)

Ok I've moved the data and information to the editors forum and will post updates on there from now on. Thanks for taking the time to test it yourself

Here's the link to the new thread...

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/285126-Possible-solutions-to-the-apparent-easiness-of-FM12

[SeanNUFC]

seconded, his early looks seem promising.

on a very very small scale, i made tactical attribute changes to pep, and barca (to make them more barca-like) and certainly against the AI they have improved and are more barca like (not played against them, so cant comment vs human player). So hopefully his hugely expanded test will do the same

I've done the same. Pleased it seems to be working for you! Haven't tested mine yet but encouraged now.

[Kriss]

Kriss, you are a nice guy, I am happy we can chat this way.

Now a proposal Kriss, why don't you join our cause ? A moderator acting with us would be helpful to the cause.

There isn't a cause:) this thread achieved its objective which was to get SI to investigate suspicions it was too easy, they're now doing that.

I would stress that it's evidently only so in certain circumstances and that could make it easier or harder to pinpoint potential issues.

I won't be joining your cause to make it harder by editing as I play in a way which means it's plenty hard enough for me as it is, but I will watch your progress with interest.

If your project becomes viable perhaps the guy who builds FMRTE could make it a preset in there or something, assuming it does bulk editing.

[DevilRay]

There isn't a cause:) this thread achieved its objective which was to get SI to investigate suspicions it was too easy, they're now doing that.

I would stress that it's evidently only so in certain circumstances and that could make it easier or harder to pinpoint potential issues.

I won't be joining your cause to make it harder by editing as I play in a way which means it's plenty hard enough for me as it is, but I will watch your progress with interest.

If your project becomes viable perhaps the guy who builds FMRTE could make it a preset in there or something, assuming it does bulk editing.

I'm interested in knowing how it is you play. Do you mind explaining? Thanks.

[ArsenalFan7]

The difficulty is definitely not right imo. fwiw I haven't read the thread.

For example I've seen a user by the name of Hershie take a small Cyprian side he added into the game finishing top of Champions league groups and beating the likes of Real Madrid just 3 years in and he's admitted the game is little challenge whatsoever to how he wanted, I couldn't believe how he'd been able to get that far so quickly, he would have had little money to work with before he got to the champions league and he's already defeating the likes of Real and going far within the competition, which obviously means more money raking in and the game just becoming a breeze.

I've seen it all over these forums, small teams challenging for big competitions in tiny spaces of time, it should be a challenge to get there, I'm not talking about 15-20 years, it's just when you can take a Championship to Champions League contenders in just a few years you know the game is too easy.

I've noticed it myself in my saves as well and I don't like it.

[PaulC]

Regarding changing the tendencies of AI managers in the database:

These are tendencies NOT abilities, as I am sure you are aware. Changing them will simply affect the way these managers set up their team, but maybe not as dramatically as you think. Eg depth of 15 doesnt mean they will always set up a depth of 15 tactically, but it does mean it will probably average around that over a season depending on opposition etc.

I cant imagine such changes will affect difficulty unless the changes are making these teams' tactics significantly more of less effective.

[andu1]

Hi Paul, changing the AI managers tactical attributes in the editor is just a short-term solution, because these managers will be replaced evantually by poorer and poorer newgen managers.

Is it possible to improve the newgen staff at least in an upcoming patch?

[PaulC]

Hi Paul, changing the AI managers tactical attributes in the editor is just a short-term solution, because these managers will be replaced evantually by poorer and poorer newgen managers.

Is it possible to improve the newgen staff at least in an upcoming patch?

I dont know tbh, its not really my area of the game.

[FestyF]

What about changing a team's 'tactical attributes' Paul? Will this have any significant effect in how they set up?

[PaulC]

Not really, no. Their manager decides that. The team tactical attributes are more for who they hire I believe.

[andu1]

Thank you Paul for your answer. Maybe you can inform the persons who are responsible for newgen staff to take a better look at this area of the game?

[PaulC]

If its been properly discussed in the bugs forum then they will be aware of it.