FM2012 difficulty.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The % of headers on target is too high in 11.3/12.0. We will slightly reduce delivery but its an over simplistic solution to rely on that.

What about headers from open play? Do you track that? I've a feeling that the set piece goals are skewing the overall statistics there. I hardly ever see a header scored from open play and that includes games including a team controlled by myself as well as the AI vs AI ones I happen to watch.

[Miek]

The next update has no release date set as yet but it should be weeks rather than months. In terms of this thread the main changes should be:

1) Better share of set piece goals between AI and human teams due to better AI routines and it being harder to get a header on target under duress

2) More effect of manager reputation vs player reputation in terms of team talk reaction and match motivation.

3) Some small tweaks to the ME to balance things out a bit better for all teams

4) A more balanced morale system where the high and lower ends have shorter "shelf life" for players, and it being harder to "top up" morale using tricks like team talks and team meetings. Hopefully the game will become a tad less streaky form wise.....

Sounds good. Thx for listening to the community.

So I guess this patch/hotfix wont be the winterupdate? Would be nice cause now I'm just waiting for a new patch.

[phnompenhandy]

Paul's answers are clear and satisfactory to me.

1. I take it to apply to set pieces, particularly corners, only. Too many goals are coming from strong DCs getting free headers int he 6 yard box. The AI recognises 'challenge goalkeeper', but doesn't seem to realise that the goalkeeper can challenge the attacking player and pluck the ball off his head more often than not.

He did say that these are the tweaks pertinent to this thread; that surely implies there will be other fixes in addition to those mentioned here. I'm also picking up the hint that it won't be out until near Christmas at best.

[lee_uk]

What about headers from open play? Do you track that? I've a feeling that the set piece goals are skewing the overall statistics there. I hardly ever see a header scored from open play and that includes games including a team controlled by myself as well as the AI vs AI ones I happen to watch.

have to agree on this..i cant remember the last time i saw a header scored from open play??

[hugo_rune]

have to agree on this..i cant remember the last time i saw a header scored from open play??

I've had it happen a number of times. I like to get wingers crossing from deep, which leads to this from time to time.

[milnerpoint]

I score headers from open play, but i do play with a huge powerful target man and two wingers that are like whippets so i get plenty of crosses into him.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I'm more worried about AI vs AI. There seems to be too little headers scored from open play. If there's already too few what will happen if heading accuracy is lowered further? I hope it'll be fine and they actually track this stat but if it's going to be anything like 10.3.0 then it's going to be a real concern.

[pinuccio]

The tactics creator steps are done in code, so messing around with .tac files is unlikely to have any effect either.

Ok Paul .But if all this has no effect, because if I cancel all_tac from the folder, and then, if I start a new career, when load new game, I get written: 4-3-3.tac error, 4-4-2.tac error, etc.etc.? So he goes to read them, and probably needs these files.

Perhaps we are underestimating the effects of the folder inTactics C:\STEAM\steamapps\common\football manager 2012\data\tactics

[PaulC]

Look, if it makes you feel happy, go do whatever you want to do. If I work out that it does nothing I won't hesitate to set people straight, but I've plenty more important stuff to do.

[KUBI]

But if all this has no effect, because if I cancel all_tac from the folder,and then, if I start a new career, when load new game, I get written: 4-3-3.tac error

It's not unusual that a programme has some routines to check if all files are present to be sure that it was installed correctly. That does not say anything about the files and it's "usage" within the game.

[Mafino]

What people need to realise is that you don't need to rely on a patch from SI to make the game harder for yourself, manage another team, set yourself small rules e.g. you can only buy players from your own continent or even country. If you still find it very easy then you're fecking good at FM!!

[gate]

Paul, I appreciated your work on improving ME. Besides the corner "bug", I also hope SI to investigate CCC created by "header from DM/CD through defense line". I scored 1 or 2 goals by such CCC every month. But I can't even remember it happened in real life. Like score in corner, sometimes this kind of CCC makes game too easy and unreal.

[Vladimir]

Yep the header after a goalkick "bug" needs attention. Actually it existed in FM11 also.

About the difficulty. Just promoted AFC Telford from BSP to Premier league in 2016. Didn't really have to try that hard either. I used basically just one 442 tactic. I only had to make a new tuned tactic in the Championship for home matches. Same tactic didn't work at all in home matches, but away I was winning most of them while a clear underdog on odds.

Tactic I used worked in FM11 also and I imported it. Couple of little changes to roles and mentalities but a very basic 442.

Couldn't sign quality players cause budget was so tight all the time. Average age of the squad is about 22-23 years old I think.

I actually didn't want to get promoted this last season to Premier quite yet but managed it through the playoffs.

All in all feels like the easiest FM ever. Wins don't have the same "wow I f***ing did it!"-feel to them. Hoping the next patch breaks my tactics

[PaulC]

The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)

[BiggusD]

The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)

How exactly did you manage this without making headed goals unrealistically rare and Heading an insensitive attribute?

[PaulC]

How exactly did you manage this without making headed goals unrealistically rare and Heading an insensitive attribute?

I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......

[Coentrao]

The header from a goal kick issue is fixed in 12.1. Or at least reduced, as obviously anything is possible in football ;-)

This is awesome news, can't wait for 12.1 now!

[BiggusD]

I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......

So the defenders can still head a ball travelling in a 30 meter high arch for 60 meters with millimeter precision wherever they want on the pitch under duress from an attacker, it is just that the defenders on the other side of the pitch anticipates this better?

[PaulC]

So the defenders can still head a ball travelling in a 30 meter high arch for 60 meters with millimeter precision wherever they want on the pitch under duress from an attacker, it is just that the defenders on the other side of the pitch anticipates this better?

Sorry, you lost me. If you are suggesting something specific is broken just come out with it, maybe with an example in the bugs forum? If you've done so already just post the link.

[BiggusD]

Sorry, you lost me. If you are suggesting something specific is broken just come out with it, maybe with an example in the bugs forum? If you've done so already just post the link.

The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...

[milnerpoint]

The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...

I would have thought the ball looks better than it is because the defence is not reacting quick enough, so the defender just heads the ball forward, but because the defensive line has not reactied quick enough it looks like a great through ball.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The problem with the goalkick-ping bug is not that the defenders won't react soon enough, as you seem to suggest, but that the header from the goal kick is a fantastic through ball...

It's both actually..

I'd still like to hear more information about headed goals from open play. Will these still exist after the update?

[Äktsjon Männ]

I would have thought the ball looks better than it is because the defence is not reacting quick enough, so the defender just heads the ball forward, but because the defensive line has not reactied quick enough it looks like a great through ball.

It's not possible to head a high arch ball with that sort of precision. The ball is travelling down towards the player with not enough velocity for it to be possible to head it 30 yards forward into the strikers path. It's even more difficult to head it anywhere specific when you have opposition players challenging for it as well.

[PaulC]

The headed passes back from a goal kick are not intentional through balls. And they arent always made under duress anyway. The issue is that the defence has pushed up facing the ball so by the time they have turned to chase back the attacker is away.

As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.

[milnerpoint]

@ Äktsjon Männ

I dunno i have seen people pick up a ball and head it 20 yards from their hands, its about technique. I dont think the headers are that accurate, they just appear that way because at times the defence is static but the attackers react very quickly to the situation so it looks like a very accurate header from the back line, but in reality its just a header forward that the defense is not ready for and out of position to defend.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I dunno i have seen people pick up a ball and head it 20 yards from their hands, its about technique. I dont think the headers are that accurate, they just appear that way because at times the defence is static but the attackers react very quickly to the situation so it looks like a very accurate header from the back line, but in reality its just a header forward that the defense is not ready for and out of position to defend.

It's easy to direct a ball when you're heading it from your hands. It's almost impossible to direct a high arch ball ball forward and still get enough velocity on it. Most of the headers from goal kicks in reality go straight back in the air.

As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.

That includes set pieces I assume? Thanks for the reply btw.

[milnerpoint]

It's easy to direct a ball when you're heading it from your hands. It's almost impossible to direct a high arch ball and still get enough velocity on it.

Nonsense, you see top central defenders every week getting great distances on headers from high balls, especially if they are not under duress. My first point was not about acuracy but that it is possible to head a ball a good distance without it coming to you at velocity, heading is about technique as much as any other part of football is, if your good at heading you dont need the ball coming at you at a great speed to get power behind it.

[Äktsjon Männ]

You don't seem to understand any of what I said. There's a huge difference between a low and high arch ball. The latter will be moving down towards the player. The angle at which you have to hit the ball to convert that velocity into forward movement is extremely precise and you'd have to hit it absolutely perfectly at the exact right time. It just does not happen in reality. Watch any real football match, pay attention to high goal kicks specifically and you'll see it for yourself. In FM these headers will move great distance at a speed that makes it possible for the striker to run onto it without even needing to control it. That's just not physically possible.

[dave byrd]

Must say i'm finding it fairly easy. First season took over Sampdoria in Serie B and won the league by 29 points which was fair enough as were were favourites to go straight back up into the Serie A, but now in my first top flight season and i'm 5 points clear of second placed Inter with 14 games to go and in the semi final of the Italian cup (for the second year running). We've been top all season long so i hope we can stay there.

I'm not saying i'm not enjoying it, but it should not be possible to top the Serie A in your first season up even with a decent Sampdoria side. I should also state i've not bought any players in for a fee, all my new recruits were picked up on frees or loan signings.

Having said all that i don't think the difficulty level is any easier or harder than in previous versions, and i've played 'em all but i do find it easier to motivate my team with the team talks and private chats, but this issue has already been addressed by Paul C ealier in the thread. My manager starting experience was set to 'automatic' when setting my game up so my reputation was 'regional' in the game due to starting in the Serie B but you'd have thought i was Kevin Keegan on ecstasy the way i was able to get my players motivated!

[Casual]

Is there a rough date set for the release of the new patch and is it gonna be save-game compatible? I have a psychological barrier to start playing a new season when knowing there are bugs affecting the game like easy team-talk and such, and I can't play until the new patch comes out, and i hope it's gonna be soon.

[BiggusD]

I won L2 and L1 straight up with Bradford, now 5-0-0 in The Championship with a team mostly consisting of L1 CA players. By the looks of it I will go straight up to Premier League, so by that time I hope that my talented young squad will be able to gain enough CA to at least be Championship quality by then...

Most of my ability to succeed stems from being underestimated to a huge degree by everyone while continuing to field my attacking tactic both home and away.

[Fredric Drum]

I think the real problems with the corner "cheat" is poor defending, at least from what I've seen. The goals are never scored after an aerial duel, but always when the player is left totally unmarked (runs away from his marker) and can stand on the ground heading the ball into the net. Jumping skill is not required. See the below screen shot. The green arrow shows how the player moved, and the red arrows show the trajectory of the ball. For the record, I don't use these corner instructions any more, but they happen once in a while which is OK. But 25 goals per year gets silly. What are the defenders doing in this screenshot? And the GK? If Cuezva was challenged, he wouldn't score so easily.

[PaulC]

Hard to argue with that specific example. Feel free to save and send me the pkm file.

[Fredric Drum]

I've sent you 2 PKMs, one where Cuezva scores a corner hattrick in a silly fashion, and the match the screenshot is from. After that hattrick I had to stop corner delivery to the near post.

[phnompenhandy]

Yes, with most of my corner goals, whilst they are scored by the biggest strongest DCs or strikers, they are never actually challenged and have a free header. i mentioned above that we can choose 'challenge keeper' but the keeper never comes to challenge the player heading the ball.

[ShirazS]

The headed passes back from a goal kick are not intentional through balls. And they arent always made under duress anyway. The issue is that the defence has pushed up facing the ball so by the time they have turned to chase back the attacker is away.

As for headed goals - I will ask beta testers to monitor it. Coming in at 14% of all goals in our latest tests for what that is worth.

Do you have the numbers for goals from corners by any chance?

[Mike7077]

This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.

[Fredric Drum]

Here's a good one. "The Chiropractor" scores with a diving header after a corner kick. In this case he wasn't marked by a defender in the first place.

[themadsheep2001]

This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.

+1, small thing perhaps, but really quite annoying

[pigfacemonkeyman]

This isn't the only problem with corners. I'm sure PaulC is aware of the issue where a corner is slightly cleared, ball is played back out to corner taker, offside. It's not unrealistic once in a while but it happens with alarming regularity. It would require an inability to learn lessons for players to allow this to happen over and over. I can't train it out of them because it's not possible.

I realise this isn't really a difficulty issue but as the conversation had turned to corners, I thought I'd raise it as I'd like to see this dealt with.

This is easily dealt with. With delivery to further than the near post and your taker set to lurk.

[rhexis]

The game starts off pretty challenging. But as the years go by it gets a lot easier because you are a lot better at identifying and playing talents that the A.I, and soon you'll have a bunch of stars, but the likes of Barcelona, Manchester City, Arsenal will just have a team that would be similar to the likes of Blackburn today.

[Cilio]

AI managers also have team talks,and can talk with players before the game?

[Äktsjon Männ]

AI managers also have team talks,and can talk with players before the game?

They can and they do, they're just not very clever with it.

[Guest]

I dont see the connection. The fix is related to the behaviour of the defensive line as a goal kick is taken......

This fix alone could see me buying FM12, as someone who in the dim distant past played in defence I always find myself throwing my arms up in frustration when the defence continued to move forward when the goal kick or free kick from defensive third is in the air.

Actually @ PaulC, will the changes also apply to keeper distribution from ball in hand & free kicks in the defensive third?

[rafael_colorado]

seeing the Goal kick goals in FM2012 was a huge letdown, but it's nice to know that it's finally being fixed

[Law_Man]

Just had my first weekend of playing FM 2012. Overall I would say it was a good experience.

However, the two things that I think SI need to sort as a priority are:

1. nerfed set-pieces (especially corners) both for and against me which regulary give games that "hockey score" feel; and

2. crosses - I'm aware of the English Premier League statistic which is that a lot of crosses fail and clearly FM should reflect this (whether due to a block by a full back at the point the cross is hit, or by an interception from a defender in the box or by the cross just being generally inaccurate).

However, the statistic I would be interested in (and I'm sure someone must have it) is what percentage of total goals scored in the English Premier League result from "crosses" (I use " " as we could obviously argue about the definition of "cross" - I would prefer a broader definition including e.g. pull backs and shorter 'pass-type' crosses as well as the traditional deep and high). I do not know the answer, but I think this statistic would show that goals scored from crosses in real life account for a larger proportion of goals scored than (I am currently seeing in my game) in FM 2012 currently.

Additionally, I think such statistic would also go towards demonstrating what people who know football already know, which is that (despite the overall percentage of successful crosses being low) where:

- a crosser of the ball is a good crosser of the ball and has good technique and a good left / right peg

AND

- the crosser has (enough) time and (enough) space to put in a cross which is reflective of his good crossing/technique ability (this could be where the crosser is very quick and has beaten his man and created the time and space or where the opposition simply do not close him down quick enough or where the crosser hits a cross first-time on receipt of a pass from a team mate)

AND

- the cross is hit with pace and whip

AND/OR

- the cross is cut-back from the byeline inside/at the 18 yard box

AND/OR

- the cross is hit into the "corridor of uncertainty" which is a horizontal channel running just outside the 6 yard line

AND

- there are plenty of the crosser's teamate in the box

AND

- the crosser's teamates are all expecting the cross as the crosser is known as a good crosser

THEN

a cross represents one of the best opportunities to score in modern football.

The issues I am experiencing with my team currently in FM2012 are:

(a) the above cross does not get hit enough when the opportunity presents itself (which it regularly does) and instead the player too often elects to shoot from a narrowish angle (if in an advanced position) (or turn around and pass back to the full back, who then sometimes hits a cross first-time from deep and sometimes plays the simple ball square to the CM); and

(b) when the above cross is hit, it does not currently offer a high enough conversion ratio.

If SI could fix set-pieces (especially corners) and crosses, I think the ME would then be brilliant.

[BiggusD]

Just had my first weekend of playing FM 2012. Overall I would say it was a good experience.

However, the two things that I think SI need to sort as a priority are:

1. nerfed set-pieces (especially corners) both for and against me which regulary give games that "hockey score" feel; and

2. crosses - I'm aware of the English Premier League statistic which is that a lot of crosses fail and clearly FM should reflect this (whether due to a block by a full back at the point the cross is hit, or by an interception from a defender in the box or by the cross just being generally inaccurate).

However, the statistic I would be interested in (and I'm sure someone must have it) is what percentage of total goals scored in the English Premier League result from "crosses" (I use " " as we could obviously argue about the definition of "cross" - I would prefer a broader definition including e.g. pull backs and shorter 'pass-type' crosses as well as the traditional deep and high). I do not know the answer, but I think this statistic would show that goals scored from crosses in real life account for a larger proportion of goals scored than (I am currently seeing in my game) in FM 2012 currently.

Additionally, I think such statistic would also go towards demonstrating what people who know football already know, which is that (despite the overall percentage of successful crosses being low) where:

- a crosser of the ball is a good crosser of the ball and has good technique and a good left / right peg

AND

- the crosser has (enough) time and (enough) space to put in a cross which is reflective of his good crossing/technique ability (this could be where the crosser is very quick and has beaten his man and created the time and space or where the opposition simply do not close him down quick enough or where the crosser hits a cross first-time on receipt of a pass from a team mate)

AND

- the cross is hit with pace and whip

AND/OR

- the cross is cut-back from the byeline inside/at the 18 yard box

AND/OR

- the cross is hit into the "corridor of uncertainty" which is a horizontal channel running just outside the 6 yard line

AND

- there are plenty of the crosser's teamate in the box

AND

- the crosser's teamates are all expecting the cross as the crosser is known as a good crosser

THEN

a cross represents one of the best opportunities to score in modern football.

The issues I am experiencing with my team currently in FM2012 are:

(a) the above cross does not get hit enough when the opportunity presents itself (which it regularly does) and instead the player too often elects to shoot from a narrowish angle (if in an advanced position) (or turn around and pass back to the full back, who then sometimes hits a cross first-time from deep and sometimes plays the simple ball square to the CM); and

(b) when the above cross is hit, it does not currently offer a high enough conversion ratio.

If SI could fix set-pieces (especially corners) and crosses, I think the ME would then be brilliant.

They can't until they have built a new physics engine.

[sperlz]

I havn't read back too far in this thread so dont know if its already been brought up, but I find freekicks to be one of the main match engine problems. They are not scored frequently enough and no freekick is ever scored over the wall. Anyone else agree with me?

[Law_Man]

They can't until they have built a new physics engine.

Could you elaborate? I haven't read the whole thread in detail and not been on the forums generally for a while.

[milnerpoint]

Could you elaborate? I haven't read the whole thread in detail and not been on the forums generally for a while.

Basically the ME is limited somewhat because of its age, there is only so much they can do with it in its current state, one of its failings is ball physics, it doesnt quite get things right and as such they have a problem with things like direct free kicks, there is a completely new ME in the works, which should be better at handling things like this and we should see an improvement in how free kicks are dealt with by the ME.