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FM2012 difficulty.

How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?   1,756 members have voted

  1. 1. How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

    • The game is too easy.
      533
    • The difficulty is about right.
      1081
    • The game is too hard.
      142

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1,763 posts in this topic

Ok, it's very easy test.

Italian Serie A, we're at the beginning of the season (9 matches for each team played).

It's October 30th. 10th round.

I am the manager of Cagliari. We are 8th in the league (predicted 10th) and in 10th round we'll play against Genoa (predicted 7th), which is actually 5th.

Probably 35% Cagliari - 30% Draw - 35% Genoa is a good prediction (for what I've seen ingame). In-game odds probabilities are: Cagliari 40% - Draw 28% - Genoa 32 %

Base #1 (MP Brought to 100 for Cagliari, left as it is for Genoa):

Sorry to have to rain on your parade, but this is where the angle is not doing any favors. To conduct the test to be able to see the difference you need to lock the tactical settings that the AI uses so it is totally in conjunction with the MP settings and not allow the AI to move from them at all. You will never be able to get a clear picture as long as you have no idea what settings that the AI is using or changing to during matches due to circumstances, this is the reason that these type of tests will always be random...

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Random results? Probably.

For sure MP 2nd and 3rd string at 0 IMHO had not a big impact as someone says.

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It would be really hard to convince me that too many corner goals scored by defenders is making this game as easy as some claim it to be. It is a problem, an annoying one but I don't buy it.

As much as I know, it was never hard to win a CL with lower division teams in 10 or 15 years. Or have any other kind of success. Fm was always easy for more experinced players. Why is this years fm easier than 11, I don't know. We know why long term games are easy. From my experience and the way I play the game, I would have a thought about AI tactical ability, tactical system in general and the ME which hugely favours attacking football.

I believe it has some effect, but still find it difficult to understand how this could be the issue. In the save game I uploaded, we have scored 90+ goals in 30 games - of these 15 are through my two DC's that have played pretty much every game (one is ever present, the other has missed 3 league games).

The ever-present DC matches the supposed issue - 8 goals from 20 attempts, 40% conversion. The other guy has 7 from 29 attempts (24%). Unless I've misunderstood, it was suggested that 1 goal in 5 attempts is realistic. Therefore this means that the ever-present has scored 4 'too many' and the other guy has maybe 1 'too many'. (For the record I have not adjusted set-piece instructions for any set-piece, other than to name the takers themselves)

Where I find it difficult is in uderstanding how these 5 extra goals across 30 games is the reason I have won 27 out of 30 and average 3.3 goals a game, especially when there was one game recently where both of them scored 2 each, so you could argue that at least 2 of these 'extra goals' came in one match

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Random results? Probably.

For sure MP 2nd and 3rd string at 0 IMHO had not a big impact as someone says.

I think the point is being misunderstood as I may be very bad at trying to explain how I think it works. MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

A better way to see the effect of the MP would be to use two human users. Make sure that the one team is 100% familiar with the tactic it uses (and only use that one during the entire match without any changes) and the other team far away from any familiar settings. This way you might be able to see if the MP 'familiarity' makes a difference (and how much)...

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I think the point is being misunderstood as I may be very bad at trying to explain how I think it works. MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

A better way to see the effect of the MP would be to use two human users. Make sure that the one team is 100% familiar with the tactic it uses (and only use that one during the entire match without any changes) and the other team far away from any familiar settings. This way you might be able to see if the MP 'familiarity' makes a difference (and how much)...

Very tempted to try this :)

Although as others have pointed out, Riz wrote the MP code so if he says it does what it does, I'm happy to go with that....

... but... still... very tempted to give this test a go just to kill off any lingering curiosity. Human manager v Human manager... hmmm.

*must resist temptation and get back to updating my DB*

Damn you Loversleaper :D

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Yep, I understand your point and I agree.

But my point is not the same: we're arguing about what could or could not be the big "bug" (I don't like the term in this case). MP, Morale after a positive streak, set pieces etc.

We know that in a single game AI teams use 2nd and 3rd string formation more than often.

A 0 familiarity with 2nd and 3rd string tactics could signify a disaster, in real life, especially if (and it's the case) these tactics are used in emergency situations.

What I've said is "IMHO there are no evidence that MP 0 familiarity on 2nd and 3rd string formations are strongly linked with strange outcomes of the matches".

Probably a tweak is needed BUT I'm really convinced that MP is not the main issue (unfortunately).

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When we put all this problems aside, my worry is that FM AI dont impress me.

To be more more clear, this is how my saves look in last few years of FM. In first season just in few games i can feel power of AI teams. Maybe few games i lose 2 goals diffrence and i can feel that AI really punished me for my mistakes. More seasons i play, these games become easier and easier. I usually stop playin when i can see on my fixture list that im winning almost every game, and thats ussually in 3rd or 4th season. I play with Sheff. Wednesday or Everton.

I like games where AI is smart and where i really can say : wow, i must try harder. IN RPG games that happens a lot and thats why i like RPG.

In FM, i dont have feelin im playin against great AI managers, like A. Ferguson, A. Wenger, Ancelotti... They are in the game, but just their names, not their strength. I hope to see more strength of good managers in the future.

There's little we can do about that since the AI does need upgrading... and poor regen staff replacing the best starting DB staff after a few seasons just compounds the problem. One short-term solution to help with the latter point would be to basically create some fantastic young AI managers in the DB that have high PA's and 20's in all key managerial catergories (like buying players, motivation, man-management etc), so when the Fergie's, Mourinho's, and Guadiola's retire there's a crop of excellent younger managers coming through to replace them.

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Very tempted to try this :)

Although as others have pointed out, Riz wrote the MP code so if he says it does what it does, I'm happy to go with that....

... but... still... very tempted to give this test a go just to kill off any lingering curiosity. Human manager v Human manager... hmmm.

*must resist temptation and get back to updating my DB*

Damn you Loversleaper :D

It's not as easy as you might think. You have to use the more or less correct strategies for the match for both teams so not to cause more randomness. Pick two relatively equal teams, the Home team probably should use an Attacking Strategy (remember to remove the Counter Attack option & save it) and the away team should use Defensive, Counter or Standard Strategy (Counter though can be problematic due to triggering aspect of the Couter Attack, so perferably Defensive is best for testing purposes). Start with the home team 100% familiar with the tactic and the away team at 0, after numerous tests then change the home team to 0 and the away to 100. Make sure they use the exact same tactics throughout without any changes during all the tests...

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MP raises 'familiarity' levels of certain settings, so it doesn't matter if it is at 0 or 100 - as soon as a change in strategy/shout is implemented then it moves away from the 'familiarity' level (presumably setting it back to 0)...

No, they won't reset to zero whenever you make tactical changes during the match. Yes, once you make some tactical changes to move away from the exact tactic that you had trained to 100% level, the same familiarity won't naturally apply. But depending on the scale of the changes, the players will still have some level of familiarity on the new settings based on what they had trained before and how big your changes in match are. Ie. the playes will adapt to your changes and use their previous familiarity as much as is suitable. Naturally changing the formation has bigger effects than just changing the other parts of the tactics like tempo etc. but you would have to make some pretty drastic tactical changes during the match to lose all the familiarity gained via previous training.

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No, they won't reset to zero whenever you make tactical changes during the match. Yes, once you make some tactical changes to move away from the exact tactic that you had trained to 100% level, the same familiarity won't naturally apply. But depending on the scale of the changes, the players will still have some level of familiarity on the new settings based on what they had trained before and how big your changes in match are. Ie. the playes will adapt to your changes and use their previous familiarity as much as is suitable. Naturally changing the formation has bigger effects than just changing the other parts of the tactics like tempo etc. but you would have to make some pretty drastic tactical changes during the match to lose all the familiarity gained via previous training.

To understand this correctly: if you use direct passing (in the MP) and you decide to play shorter during a match, you naturally don't reset the direct passing 'familiarity'- I pretty much figured that. But since you do decide to use shorter passing during a match then you are suggesting that the ME doesn't recognise the 'familiarity' setting for shorter passing as 0?

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The ever-present DC matches the supposed issue - 8 goals from 20 attempts' date=' 40% conversion. The other guy has 7 from 29 attempts (24%). Unless I've misunderstood, it was suggested that 1 goal in 5 attempts is realistic. Therefore this means that the ever-present has scored 4 'too many' and the other guy has maybe 1 'too many'. (For the record I have not adjusted set-piece instructions for any set-piece, other than to name the takers themselves)

Where I find it difficult is in uderstanding how these 5 extra goals across 30 games is the reason I have won 27 out of 30 and average 3.3 goals a game, especially when there was one game recently where both of them scored 2 each, so you could argue that at least 2 of these 'extra goals' came in one match[/quote']

24% is not realistic. 10-12% would be the ballpark figure for non-forwards. You should have scored circa 5. That's 10 'gimme' goals, or 1 in every 3 games, which is similar to, if not slightly higher, than the ratio in other saves.

Say that for every game you get a 'gimme' goal, you win. You also win 1/3 of your games fairly. After 30 games your record would be circa W20 D5 L5. However, if you add in some of the morale advantages that 'hangover' from winning streaks and your MP advantage, you can award yourself a few more wins. Voila, you have 27!

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Scoring 7 or 8 goals is maybe not realistic for a Dc to score in a season, but it's acceptable. It surely doesn't make a game from being easy to chalenging. Far from it.

For me being able to have 20+ shots per game is just as annoying. Probably even more.

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24% is not realistic. 10-12% would be the ballpark figure for non-forwards. You should have scored circa 5. That's 10 'gimme' goals, or 1 in every 3 games, which is similar to, if not slightly higher, than the ratio in other saves.

Say that for every game you get a 'gimme' goal, you win. You also win 1/3 of your games fairly. After 30 games your record would be circa W20 D5 L5. However, if you add in some of the morale advantages that 'hangover' from winning streaks and your MP advantage, you can award yourself a few more wins. Voila, you have 27!

Thanks for the reply - makes more sense with 10-12% being the norm, and mixed in with the other factors (I thought that they had been downplayed more than your reply suggests). And looking at team stats, I have scored 18 goals from corners in total, the next best is 13, which is a big difference. I'm in joint 7th for goals from IFKs though, so nothing extraordinary there.

I never swap the two CDs from their left/right sides, so the default corner instructions are always the same too. Noticed that the ever present DC (who for the record has scored another in the next 4 games, from a corner obviously) always attacks the near post rather than the far.

I understand more from your answer, so the only thing I'm seeing that seems to be against the grain is that I'm having a far greater impact from the DC attacking the near post (however, he is also the much higher rated player)

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I understand more from your answer' date=' so the only thing I'm seeing that seems to be against the grain is that I'm having a far greater impact from the DC attacking the near post (however, he is also the much higher rated player)[/quote']

What are his key attributes versus the other DC (Jumping, Heading, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Strength)? Earlier in the thread it was the back post DC dominating. Your findings suggest it is attributes, not set piece position, that is the key.

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I'm the earlier thread chap. They key attribute difference between the 2 DCs was that the one getting all the goals had a very high STRENGTH attribute. He was inferior in Head/Jumping. They both have poor attributes in anticipation and off the ball.

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What are his key attributes versus the other DC (Jumping, Heading, Anticipation, Off the Ball, Strength)? Earlier in the thread it was the back post DC dominating. Your findings suggest it is attributes, not set piece position, that is the key.

Far Post - Chris Brown

brownq.jpg

Near Post - Jim Lauchlan

lauchlan.jpg

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Yes, having three full familiarity tactics will give a slight edge here but considering the bigger picture, it does not appear to be a major factor to final results. However, like I already stated above we have looked into the AI handling of their match preparation training and we are continuing to balance things where needed.

This thread has been very helpful so far. I believe it when SI says such and such have minor effect on the results, but look how many areas have been discovered here. Morale has minor effect, set pieces have minor effect, MP has minor effects, etc., but all these little 'deficiencies' AI teams have, add up to make the game (which is already easy in long term due to AI's lack of competitiveness in the transfer market) easy starting from very first season now. In the older FM's at least the first 1-2 seasons were challenging.

Anyways, I'm glad this thread became very useful to SI to improve the game. Thank you to everybody who contributed :)

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To understand this correctly: if you use direct passing (in the MP) and you decide to play shorter during a match, you naturally don't reset the direct passing 'familiarity'- I pretty much figured that. But since you do decide to use shorter passing during a match then you are suggesting that the ME doesn't recognise the 'familiarity' setting for shorter passing as 0?

Let's say you have just one tactic setup in match prep and you use direct passing that and have it already trained at 100% familiarity for example. Then you start a match and switch to a "shorter passing" style. Naturally this won't affect anything you have set in the training, but during the rest of the match the players are not using the exact same tactic as they had trained with so the familiarity level applied is not the same as shows up in the training. The level applied in the match after the tactical change is based on the level for direct passing, but is naturally lower because of the change.

Naturally if you have multiple tactics trained, then any changes you make during the match are checked against all the trained tactics to see if the new match tactics have been trained previously. And even if they haven't been trained, the players will still keep a part of the trained level of familiarity depending on how much the new match time tactics differ from the ones they had trained for.

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I still intend to have AI set them up using abilities rather than positions, but clearly they need to be a little more willing to hit that big man at the far post ;)

I know this is a bit of a tongue in cheek comment but I can't help but point out that having the AI score more unstoppable corner goals is the opposite of what should be happening. You clearly need to make it way harder for both the AI and player controlled team to actually hit anyone specific with their corner kicks. The accuracy should be nowhere near as high.

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I know this is a bit of a tongue in cheek comment but I can't help but point out that having the AI score more unstoppable corner goals is the opposite of what should be happening. You clearly need to make it way harder for both the AI and player controlled team to actually hit anyone specific with their corner kicks. The accuracy should be nowhere near as high.

No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

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No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I agree. I've tuned down my corners by advising mixed delivery so that I don't score more than the opposition (and I don't now). However, I am scoring quite a lot from IFK so the problem is headers are too accurate for me even though my players don't have exceptional heading ability.

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No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

Yeah, but it was too low in FM10. I can definitely see how it's hard to balance. Is the CK delivery very closely tied to crossing in general? I can't say I'm seeing too many headed goals from open play at all, probably the opposite in fact.

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No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I also noticed a very high percentage of scored penalties both from AI and human, dunno if I am the only one or if you guys share my thought.

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I also noticed a very high percentage of scored penalties both from AI and human, dunno if I am the only one or if you guys share my thought.

What sort of high percentage? Bear in mind that a very high percentage of penalties are scored in reality.

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What sort of high percentage? Bear in mind that a very high percentage of penalties are scored in reality.

I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.

This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

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No its an obvious point. Delivery accuracy would have to be toned down if possible. I also think headers in general are on target too often and that gives us some room for manoeuvre.

I instruct my wide men never to cross because the success rate for crossing is so low (like long shots). So on the one hand crossing is very poor, but on the other hand corners are too successful. It's the headers from corners only that needs to be toned down, from my observations.

Nb. I get very little success from free kicks. My free kick takers don't have good attributes (neither do my corner takers), so that seems right to me.

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Let's say you have just one tactic setup in match prep and you use direct passing that and have it already trained at 100% familiarity for example. Then you start a match and switch to a "shorter passing" style. Naturally this won't affect anything you have set in the training, but during the rest of the match the players are not using the exact same tactic as they had trained with so the familiarity level applied is not the same as shows up in the training. The level applied in the match after the tactical change is based on the level for direct passing, but is naturally lower because of the change.

Naturally if you have multiple tactics trained, then any changes you make during the match are checked against all the trained tactics to see if the new match tactics have been trained previously. And even if they haven't been trained, the players will still keep a part of the trained level of familiarity depending on how much the new match time tactics differ from the ones they had trained for.

This could explain why that it might be relatively easy to overachieve using one tactic throughout as described in several threads. Shouts change settings, you could be in a situation where the shouts might alter your game plan so much that your team are unfamiliar with them - thus causing the overall gameplan to fail. This is what I think is happening to the AI, as you mentioned earlier that the AI might change around more than the human would. Taking myself as an example, I am not sure what all the shouts change in regards to settings (of the sliders) so I may be in a situation where I wouldn't be able to see the desired effect of the changes I implement through the Strategy/Shouts options (where I think it would be a good idea, but due to the familiarity reality it turns out to be a bad option).

I was wondering, does the 'familiarity' have any effect on goal conversion rates (since we are talking about set-pieces/corners as well elsewhere)?

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I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.

This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

It should be closer to 80-85% in real life, and as far as I know in FM it is nowhere near 95%, it is more like 85%. 20-25 penalties are not enough sample. Overall it is not that far off.

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I am certainly being more successfull in FM12, whether thats down to me just playing better (transfers, tactics etc) or the game is actually easier, I'm not sure...

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Corners goals have a bug or something?? Is so easy to score from a corner :S

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I am certainly being more successfull in FM12, whether thats down to me just playing better (transfers, tactics etc) or the game is actually easier, I'm not sure...

Doesn't it feel like you have to do a lot less to win a game now?

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I have played only a season an a half so far ( cause of easiness I stopped playing ) and I can speak about my own perception only.

Well, I have seen roughly 20-25 penalties both from AI and mine and roughly 95% of them have been scored.

This is not a shout like the easiness one, this is only a side question I posted to listen to your opinions

The last percentages I saw had penalties at circa 79% wheres in reality conversion is 82%. Haven't seen anything to suggest that's changed.

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Just won another 1st season save - this time Grasshoppers (predicted 7/10). I am 3/4 first time league winner now. Only Wolfsburg took me 2 seasons from the bottom of the table. Differenet tactics in each team and in the last one - not a single tactical change all season... I feel ashamed to be called "wonder-maker" by the game, for it probably everyone is.

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Grasshoppers are over-powered in my game too (AI managed), I think that some of the players like de Ridder, Landeka, Bertucci, Paiva etc. are a lot better in FM than in reality.

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Grasshoppers are over-powered in my game too (AI managed), I think that some of the players like de Ridder, Landeka, Bertucci, Paiva etc. are a lot better in FM than in reality.

Landeka was a sub all season long :) Was impressed with Zuber as AML - he had a fantastic season. Also Bertucci and Lang are very good prospects. However, I just realized my finances are crap and my wage budget is even lower than first season, I am really going to struggle season 2 when I have CL and League alongside with my miniature squad - hopefully it will be more fun.

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I just saw in the other thread , C. ROnaldo scored 19 goals in first 5 games. WHats more interesting , in same thread, P. Crouch score 43 goals in a season. This game really need some balance and realism. Peter Crouch never was scoring machine, only time he score 20+ goals was for Liverpool, but in 3 seasons, hehehe.

I really dont know whats happening with this game, but i know that you must make this game harder to beat. Put some challenge in FM13, before its too late.

Actually, its pretty sad that i didnt play with the clubs i support, for 8 years (real life), Ac Milan and Arsenal, because its too easy to play with them. YOu must make some challenge for top teams too. Many players actually support bigger clubs, not smaller ones.

Only club i like and its not in first league is Sheff. Wednesday, but im tired of playin with them.

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I just saw in the other thread , C. ROnaldo scored 19 goals in first 5 games. WHats more interesting , in same thread, P. Crouch score 43 goals in a season. This game really need some balance and realism. Peter Crouch never was scoring machine, only time he score 20+ goals was for Liverpool, but in 3 seasons, hehehe.

I really dont know whats happening with this game, but i know that you must make this game harder to beat. Put some challenge in FM13, before its too late.

Actually, its pretty sad that i didnt play with the clubs i support, for 8 years (real life), Ac Milan and Arsenal, because its too easy to play with them. YOu must make some challenge for top teams too. Many players actually support bigger clubs, not smaller ones.

Only club i like and its not in first league is Sheff. Wednesday, but im tired of playin with them.

is there a tactic being downloaded that is really good, or something along those lines?

in my 6th season the most goals i've had by 1 player in the league is 24 by suarez, that was once. he's hit 20 twice, and then never more than that. neymar gets 15-18/season. and a regen i have gets 10-15. but i'm not getting anyone with 30, 40, 50 goals...

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Theres was a old football manager (i dont remember the name atm), where you pick the team you want... but always start in the 4th division.

So for example, you could pick your favourite team (Arsenal), and start the save in the 4th division.

This could be arranged in the game along side with the option to play with fictional players.

And maybe SI could arrange also a little introduction story like..."Arsenal got relegated to the 4th due to finances issues..." or something like that.

This could be a nice challenge to many players, imo... and a very easy one to implement in the game.

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This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

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I don't think this game's any easier than FM2011, to be honest. I'm playing as Lazio and I've been humbled by stronger teams (Barca, OM, PSG) etc. Haven't won the league yet in 4 seasons though I do have an italian cup. In FM11 I would be ripping the league/europe/intercontinentals apart with my B-team.

And yes, I do keep my player morals high all the time.

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This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

I would cut the word " possibly " or change it with " definitely "

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Ban me for what?

cos you kept spamming the same old crap over and over!!!

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I'm regulary having silly amounts of shots with Real Madrid. This is a little analisys of real life squad and my in FM.

IRL Real have scored 23 goals in last 6 matches, won them all. Real has scored 3,83 goals per game.

vs Osasuna 7:1 (Real had 16 shots)

vs Sociedad 1:0 (12 shots)

vs Villareal 3:0 (13)

vs Malaga 4:0 (13)

vs Betis 4:1 (23)

vs Espanyol 4:0 (15)

Together they had 92 shots, which meens 15.33 shots/game.

Real in my FM save: we have scored 14 goals in last 6 games. 2,33 per game. If I don't count two super cup games with Barca which is also managed by me then we had 3,5 goals/game.

vs Bayer 4:0 (36 shots on goal)

vs Espanyol 2:1 (21)

vs Zaragoza 2:0 (40)

vs Sporting 4:0 (23)

vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (9)

vs Barca (managed by me also) 0:1 (12)

This meens 141 total shots or 23,5 per/game. If I don't count games with Barca we had 30 shots per game on avarage.

I'm able to have twice as more shots per game than real life Real, with goals/game being lower. This is a big problem I think and surely one of the reasons why this game is easy. Especially for people who play with big clubs, or become such in few years or have a good tactic. WHich includes almost everyone at one point I guess. The reason why it is happening is in poor defensive AI and tactical system which could be easily improved.

In this two games just Ronaldo has as many shots as Real has on avarage in real life:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/70776222.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/rm2t.jpg/

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This is possibly one of the most important thread for years; let's not derail it with daft ideas.

was this related with my ideia?

You may not like it, but please respect it.

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Theres was a old football manager (i dont remember the name atm), where you pick the team you want... but always start in the 4th division.

So for example, you could pick your favourite team (Arsenal), and start the save in the 4th division.

This could be arranged in the game along side with the option to play with fictional players.

And maybe SI could arrange also a little introduction story like..."Arsenal got relegated to the 4th due to finances issues..." or something like that.

This could be a nice challenge to many players, imo... and a very easy one to implement in the game.

How would managing Arsenal with their finances in L2 be challenging? Should they start with a 5000 stadium and no followers too? Bad idea.

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