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FM2012 difficulty.

How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?   1,756 members have voted

  1. 1. How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

    • The game is too easy.
      533
    • The difficulty is about right.
      1081
    • The game is too hard.
      142

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1,763 posts in this topic

But how come it's not happening to AI teams, they also have all the big guys upfront? Match prep, morale? I think that's the real question.

10 or 15 goals per season for a DC is almost equally unrealistic as scoring 30 :D

From what I've seen, it looks like the AI hardly ever aims at the tall threat. They do actually score at a similar ratio, but they only have 6-10 opportunities during a season.

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Because it was absolutely imperative the AI didn't score too many goals from corners, it seems like the knock on is that their set piece routines were so bad they hardly scored any. Delivery accuracy would have been tweaked up to ensure they were scoring at the right ratio (dead ball v open play goals). Consequently, any half decent user routine dominates.

Aren't the AI routines the same as the default set piece creator ones then? They regularly score corners against me anyway. The last 50 games statistic says I've scored 10 goals from corners whilst the AI has scored 8 against me. All on default settings. Can't say I've noticed the AI teams being 'nerfed' in any way when it comes to set piece routines.

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wwfan explained it : you score easily from corners, therefore the AI tries harder to score, switching to a tactic they aren't used to (bug in Match Prep), and it impacts their morale (bug on morale). It also leaves you with more easy scoring occasions.

To me, this is a perfectly valid analysis. User team doesn't score a lot from corners or IFK, they score too often.

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Aren't the AI routines the same as the default set piece creator ones then? They regularly score corners against me anyway. The last 50 games statistic says I've scored 10 goals from corners whilst the AI has scored 8 against me. All on default settings. Can't say I've noticed the AI teams being 'nerfed' in any way when it comes to set piece routines.

Are you finding it too easy?

I'm just looking at the conversion ratios. They are hugely biased in favour of users and set piece conversion is unarguably the core culprit. I am pretty certain this will knock on to other chances being converted more easily as the AI is forced to open up against a solid strategy.

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From my experience the AI also scores very easily from set pieces, just to make sure, people that leave their routine on default and corner delivery on mixed aren't affected by this? Only the people that set corners to near or far post?

And for what it's worth i'm not one of those that are finding it too easy.

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From my experience the AI also scores very easily from set pieces, just to make sure, people that leave their routine on default and corner delivery on mixed aren't affected by this? Only the people that set corners to near or far post?

Same question. Are you finding it too easy? If so, check your conversion ratio against all the other teams in the division.

If not and you do concede lots from corners, it might be that the same players who score goals also give a defensive advantage for set pieces as well, which would make a lot of sense.

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Yeah to be honest what your describing makes sense. It doesnt appear the AI properly learns 3 tactics like we do, and by the conversion rate it seems the human controlled team scores more than it should from set pieces, which in turn means the AI has to come out and attack more than they would normally, changing to unfamiliar tactics and leaving themselves more open, which in turn leads to high scoring games and what appears to be easy wins for the human user.

Not an easy one to track down, but this could definitely go a long way to explaining the issues experienced by some users.

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Are you finding it too easy?

I'm just looking at the conversion ratios. They are hugely biased in favour of users and set piece conversion is unarguably the core culprit. I am pretty certain this will knock on to other chances being converted more easily as the AI is forced to open up against a solid strategy.

I'm not sure. I'm doing a career game in Swedish lower leagues, am doing well but that could well be down to the quality of my team compared to the opposition. The game says I'm overachieving greatly but it's looking at reputation only when deciding that so it means very little.

I can't argue against the conversion ratios you're seeing, I'm just wondering as to why they're so high in the first place when the AI should be using the same set piece routines as human users who don't tweak the defaults. Aren't the motivational aspects as well as the match prep issue perhaps a bit more influential here than you seem to think?

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I'm not sure. I'm doing a career game in Swedish lower leagues' date=' am doing well but that could well be down to the quality of my team compared to the opposition. The game says I'm overachieving greatly but it's looking at reputation only when deciding that so it means very little.

I can't argue against the conversion ratios you're seeing, I'm just wondering as to why they're so high in the first place when the AI [i']should[/i] be using the same set piece routines as human users who don't tweak the defaults. Aren't the motivational aspects as well as the match prep issue perhaps a bit more influential here than you seem to think?

I'm sure they are contributory, but they are secondary to the set piece issue. They may even contribute to the set piece issue (perhaps by decreasing the decision to challenge for the ball or mark a certain player?). However, we won't know until Paul looks into it.

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Same question. Are you finding it too easy? If so, check your conversion ratio against all the other teams in the division.

If not and you do concede lots from corners, it might be that the same players who score goals also give a defensive advantage for set pieces as well, which would make a lot of sense.

I've started a new season so i don't have that data anymore, i'm not finding it too easy, i got promoted with a top half team from the French National but only managed promotion on the last day, slight overachievement but not anything like the people have been posting here.

I have corners and mixed and the only thing i tweak is the number of people that go back so i don't get caught in the counter.

Corners were the same on 11.3 though, and people find it harder than FM11?

And i hope that i don't sound too annoying with all these questions, thanks for all your time in trying to claryify this issue.

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I've started a new season so i don't have that data anymore, i'm not finding it too easy, i got promoted with a top half team from the French National but only managed promotion on the last day, slight overachievement but not anything like the people have been posting here.

I have corners and mixed and the only thing i tweak is the number of people that go back so i don't get caught in the counter.

Corners were the same on 11.3 though, and people find it harder than FM11?

And i hope that i don't sound too annoying with all these questions, thanks for all your time in trying to claryify this issue.

It might be that even one change to the set piece default stops the overachievement. It might be that you don't have the right type of player in the right position to score loads from the routine. Remember, this is NOT affecting everyone.

Ultimately, these questions can only be answered after Paul looks into it in more detail.

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They may even contribute to the set piece issue (perhaps by decreasing the decision to challenge for the ball or mark a certain player?).

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If the human user is scoring more proficiently from set pieces than the AI when both are using similar routines then something must be causing this. Corners being too easy to score from may be the main issue but morale and lack of match prep for the AI are very likely to be the reason why the conversion ratios are biased against the AI.

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That's exactly what I'm thinking. If the human user is scoring more proficiently from set pieces than the AI when both are using similar routines then something must be causing this. Corners being too easy to score from may be the main issue but morale and lack of match prep for the AI are very likely to be the reason why the conversion ratios are biased against the AI.

They aren't the only reason. I think there is a fundamental issue with AI set pieces as well. However, they probably contribute.

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I still don't think this is the problem. In my first season with Darmstadt I had 72 goals - 10 of those from Defenders (2 by a FB). Goals from corners was 13. Considering how little goals are scored from DFK and IDFK, I thing it is a good ratio of goals from open play and goals from set pieces. Mind you I am No. 6 by goals from Corners, obviously the AI teams score this way too. Goals scored to goals conceded from corner was 17-5. My overall GD was 72-34. The ratio is obviously a bit higher for corners, but this simply isn't the only factor in making the game too easy. It may be a contributing factor - just like the lack of match prep for Tcts 2 and 3, no doubt about that, but certainly it is not the sole issue. I still believe it is the AI "dumbness" in managing tactics, transfers and team morale (for some reason I have noticed most teams have a crappy morale before they play against me, whereas mine is always great), that makes the game far too easy.

Mind you I don't use the bug of crossing at far post, in this case the ratio would be far worse and my career even more pointless.

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topic has been diverted to the corner bug thingy. now back to how to make the game more difficult and AI match prep being low.

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I still don't think this is the problem. In my first season with Darmstadt I had 72 goals - 10 of those from Defenders (2 by a FB). Goals from corners was 13. Considering how little goals are scored from DFK and IDFK, I thing it is a good ratio of goals from open play and goals from set pieces. Mind you I am No. 6 by goals from Corners, obviously the AI teams score this way too. Goals scored to goals conceded from corner was 17-5. My overall GD was 72-34. The ratio is obviously a bit higher for corners, but this simply isn't the only factor in making the game too easy. It may be a contributing factor - just like the lack of match prep for Tcts 2 and 3, no doubt about that, but certainly it is not the sole issue. I still believe it is the AI "dumbness" in managing tactics, transfers and team morale (for some reason I have noticed most teams have a crappy morale before they play against me, whereas mine is always great), that makes the game far too easy.

Mind you I don't use the bug of crossing at far post, in this case the ratio would be far worse and my career even more pointless.

Check the conversion ratios. Goals per shot (Go to Information / Stats). It is not the number of set piece goals, but the percentage of goals against overall goals scored. You might only score 17, but they will reduce the goals per shot by a significant margin across the team, meaning you can score while remaining defensively sound.

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So you're saying the AI routines aren't the default set piece creator ones?

Another one for Paul, but I don't think so, no.

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What ME changes were made between FM11 and FM12 to cause an issue only raised in FM12?

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What ME changes were made between FM11 and FM12 to cause an issue only raised in FM12?

It is likely to be something very, very minor. In fact, it can only be something very, very minor.

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What I don't understand in this context is why user Teams have such a big advantage over AI when the main Bugs are in the Match Engine. Shouldn't the Match Engine Calculate the same bugs on both sides. As far as I thought, the match engine doesn't differ between a user coached Team und an AI Match.

If this is true, why is the AI not scoring as much goals on corners as the User Team does? Espacially when the user only uses the standart settings for set pieces. I agree that their are too many goals form corners. But my results are the same for me and the AI as far as I watched it.

But I am stronger in scoring normal goals. Maybe the AI reacts not right if they are behind?

Or the morals thing is calculated different for AI and humans.....that would mean, that the AI-Calculation doesn't work the same way as the one for human teams und this would be a reason for the easy going, but a real bad sign for the whole game.

In earlyer versions of the game, the game was to easy after a few years. This is the only time, that it is to easy right in the first season without using common tactics or secret players. So their has to be something that holds the AI down. Maybe a Bug, maybe purpose by SI, which is bad calculated. A hope further patches will help, because I really like the additions in the last two versions, which i'd not bought.

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I hope this thread goes to show people how difficult it is finding some bugs in this game, its taken weeks, from various members and more than a few save games to get to the bottom of this, people need to give the testing team a break sometimes!!

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Check the conversion ratios. Goals per shot (Go to Information / Stats). It is not the number of set piece goals, but the percentage of goals against overall goals scored. You might only score 17, but they will reduce the goals per shot by a significant margin across the team, meaning you can score while remaining defensively sound.

My conversion ratio is 0.14. The AI teams' varies between 0.11 and 0.14 - this can't be it (at least not in my save).

Actually there are some that go above 0.15 from the higher ranked ones a couple that go to 0.10 from the relegation battlers - that is normal, this is the variotion in the finishing skills of the players from better and crappy clubs.

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Anyway, it just shows that the set pieces(corners specially) could really use some work, probably something that won't happen in FM12 lifetime unfortunately.

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Ok, I've decided to run a test on MP.

I start with Lazio, no transfer allowed, predicted 8th, no transfers, 4-4-2 standard tactic.

For each simulation and for every match I've removed bans, injuries and I'll inspire every team in Serie A.

In #1 sim I'll simply click 'Continue' button.

In #2 sim I'll adjust MP for AI teams.

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topic has been diverted to the corner bug thingy. now back to how to make the game more difficult and AI match prep being low.

Its a cascade effect. All stemming from setpiece conversion ratios (problem #1). After that the AI adds to its own woes via poor MPs (problem #2). They're then likey to suffer a loss, or even big loss, that finally puts them into a downward spiral of poor long-lasting morale (problem #3), while your teams morale goes in the opposite direction, which loops back into your next game where you're likely to be on a high, benefit from more attacks, which means more attacking setpieces and the whole loop starts again - before you know it you're on one of them long winning runs, massively over-achieving with mediocre teams. I've probably over simplified it there like, but its not just 1 single problem with corners, thats just where it starts.

You can fix the AI MP with fmrte (a massive job if you do it for all AI teams in your save game), but the pay off won't be worth the man-hours you put into it. Only an SI patch is feasible imho.

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While i was reading this last posts in this thread, played a CL game against Napoli (i'm playing with Benfica).

Lost the game 2-0.

First goal, came from a set-piece!

Second goal, came from a corner taken at the first post!

:D

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While i was reading this last posts in this thread, played a CL game against Napoli (i'm playing with Benfica).

Lost the game 2-0.

First goal, came from a set-piece!

Second goal, came from a corner taken at the first post!

:D

Don't you mean aimed at the first post? :D

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Don't you mean aimed at the first post? :D

:lol: yes! aimed at the first post! Sorry for the bad english! :o

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Its a cascade effect. All stemming from setpiece conversion ratios (problem #1). After that the AI adds to its own woes via poor MPs (problem #2). They're then likey to suffer a loss, or even big loss, that finally puts them into a downward spiral of poor long-lasting morale (problem #3), while your teams morale goes in the opposite direction, which loops back into your next game where you're likely to be on a high, benefit from more attacks, which means more attacking setpieces and the whole loop starts again - before you know it you're on one of them long winning runs, massively over-achieving with mediocre teams. I've probably over simplified it there like, but its not just 1 single problem with corners, thats just where it starts.

You can fix the AI MP with fmrte (a massive job if you do it for all AI teams in your save game), but the pay off won't be worth the man-hours you put into it. Only an SI patch is feasible imho.

What would you suggest doing with the AI MP in fmrte? I'd only do it for teams in my league.

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Took a nap, just woke up. Reading a few posts that are skeptical of wwfan's conclusion. It has been pointed out all along that not everyone is experiencing this problem. There was one key point in my analysis that is being overlooked by the skeptics, so can I ask you to check one simple thing: the player with the ridiculously high corner-scoring shots/goals ratio (a DC) has a very high Strength attribute. My other DC also had a ratio that was too high but not on the same scale, and he has less Strength. So, check the defender who has the highest shot/goal ratio - what is his STRENGTH (and Jumping and Heading)? If these attributes typically outweigh the opposition, wwfan has hot the nail on the head, whereas if you can show that the player in question's attributes are mediocre, other factors must play a bigger part.

Answers, please! :)

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My conversion ratio is 0.14. The AI teams' varies between 0.11 and 0.14 - this can't be it (at least not in my save).

Actually there are some that go above 0.15 from the higher ranked ones a couple that go to 0.10 from the relegation battlers - that is normal, this is the variotion in the finishing skills of the players from better and crappy clubs.

Have you uploaded a save game? If so, Paul, can I have a look?

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My conversion ratio is 0.14. The AI teams' varies between 0.11 and 0.14 - this can't be it (at least not in my save).

Actually there are some that go above 0.15 from the higher ranked ones a couple that go to 0.10 from the relegation battlers - that is normal, this is the variotion in the finishing skills of the players from better and crappy clubs.

No no, you're missing the point. It's not your team's stats that you need to examine; you need to look at the conversion rate for specific players. First look to see if you have any defenders (almost certainly DCs) who have scored more than a handful of games in a season - check the conversion rate for him/them. Then go to the league stats and find the table of conversion rates - in my case the chap in question was over 20 percentage points in front of the field.

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What would you suggest doing with the AI MP in fmrte? I'd only do it for teams in my league.

You can improve all three AI tactics using FMRTE for all the teams in your league (see post #1043). Thats what I did for my test games against a team in my league. There did seem to be a very slight improvement in the challenge but it was such a short test I can't 100% be sure on that. I watched the games and did the managerial things I should do, i.e. switched tactics, used shouts, tried subs etc to grind out results, so that was a positive. However, you're only slightly "fixing" one problem. You would then need to do as wwfan recommends and nuke your own setpieces by keeping your tall threats away. The long lasting morale issue can be fixed with FMRTE too by using the morale-reset thingy I was experimenting on (many posts ago). So yes, its all doable but a bit of a mess on and can be risky to the integrity of your save if you over use FMRTE.

Patch is the only way really (no pressure SI ;))

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Yeah to be honest guys i would be a bit wary of massive edits to your game using FMRTE. I would be wary of any knock on effects that could come from changing too many things at once. FMRTE is great, but at the end its not SI supported and we dont really know what could be messed up with huge mass editing of the game using it. Hopefully now we seem to have gotten to the bottom of this a patch from SI will be forthcoming soon enough :)

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Have you uploaded a save game? If so, Paul, can I have a look?

I have.

phnompenhandy - 1 of my DCs has 5/26 conversion ratio for the season: STR 10, HEA 12, JMP 11.

Took a team from mid table - their best DC is 4/10: STR 8, HEA 14, JMP 14.

Someone from another mid-tabled - best DC is 3/12: STR 12, HEA 14, JMP 16.

What I do see is that my DC's get quite a bit more ATTEMPTS despite me not even trying to go for the tactics at the back post - I think I had mixed crossing from both sides.

Otherwise, pretty much what I'd expect to see tbh. I still don't see it as THE problem in FM12...

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What would you suggest doing with the AI MP in fmrte? I'd only do it for teams in my league.

This would lead to a curious knock-on effect in itself. Let's say that before every match you up the MP of your next opposition. Consider:

1. You max out MP for Team A. Play the game, more even contest.

2. You max out the MP for Team B, which you play after Team A. Play the game, even contest. And so on.

However, when you play Team B, Team A is going to play Team C; Team A has max MP; Team C doesn't. Therefore, all the AI v AI fixtures in your league (and cup games) are going to be imbalanced, although gradually this will reduce as you play more teams.

Therefore, it's not a real solution; only a thorough fix in a patch followed by starting a new savegame can really do it.

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What I've seen so far in my save where I manage Real and Barca, there are far too many games where I end with 20+ shots on goal. The most I had was with Real where I had 40 shots and they had 3. I only won 2-0. With Barca I scored 6 goals from corners and free kicks, with Real I scored only 1 goal. Both in 5 competetive matches.

For me there are two big problems with teams that play against me. Both home and awey AI teams play very defensivly. The first problem is poor defending which ME related thing. My players come into position to shoot just too easily, it's not what you would expect against park the bus tatctics. There is no team defending, with 2 or 3 players closing down on attacker. It's just too easy to win when you have 20+ shots per game.

The second issue is that there are no real counter attack threats from AI teams. What's strange and it is related to the poor defensive mechanisms I mentioned, is that AI teams are far more capable of controlling posession than being dangerous from counter attacks. Witha Barca I play 433 and with Real 4231 so there are 3 and 4 players that don't come back to help in defense (another issue), and the AI seems uncapable of punishing that.

Imo these 2 things might well contribute to easy wins once you're being a favourite to win or playing with big clubs.

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I have.

phnompenhandy - 1 of my DCs has 5/26 conversion ratio for the season: STR 10, HEA 12, JMP 11.

Took a team from mid table - their best DC is 4/10: STR 8, HEA 14, JMP 14.

Someone from another mid-tabled - best DC is 3/12: STR 12, HEA 14, JMP 16.

What I do see is that my DC's get quite a bit more ATTEMPTS despite me not even trying to go for the tactics at the back post - I think I had mixed crossing from both sides.

Otherwise, pretty much what I'd expect to see tbh. I still don't see it as THE problem in FM12...

I THINK that does support wwfan's conclusion. You players have average attributes. The conversion rate of your DC is high, but at less that 20% not ridiculous. My DC with outstanding attributes was getting 48%.

So, remind me (us) - is your experience that you are finding the game too easy, but are NOT scoring too many goals from set-pieces?

EDIT: just read post #1115. You're saying it is too easy and you speculate that other factors must be playing a bigger part. Fair point! :thup:

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What I've seen so far in my save where I manage Real and Barca, there are far too many games where I end with 20+ shots on goal. The most I had was with Real where I had 40 shots and they had 3. I only won 2-0. With Barca I scored 6 goals from corners and free kicks, with Real I scored only 1 goal. Both in 5 competetive matches.

For me there are two big problems with teams that play against me. Both home and awey AI teams play very defensivly. The first problem is poor defending which ME related thing. My players come into position to shoot just too easily, it's not what you would expect against park the bus tatctics. There is no team defending, with 2 or 3 players closing down on attacker. It's just too easy to win when you have 20+ shots per game.

The second issue is that there are no real counter attack threats from AI teams. What's strange and it is related to the poor defensive mechanisms I mentioned, is that AI teams are far more capable of controlling posession than being dangerous from counter attacks. Witha Barca I play 433 and with Real 4231 so there are 3 and 4 players that don't come back to help in defense (another issue), and the AI seems uncapable of punishing that.

Imo these 2 things might well contribute to easy wins once you're being a favourite to win or playing with big clubs.

Well, if you play Barca/Real that is what you would expect - have you not been watching TV lately? They win 8-1 with 25 goal attempts. Pretty normal for these two clubs. The problem with FM is that same thing happens even with crappy teams.

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What I've seen so far in my save where I manage Real and Barca, there are far too many games where I end with 20+ shots on goal.

Question : how many of these shots are from corners or IFK ? I noticed with my club that when I had a high shooting game, it was often lots of headers from corners...

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I THINK that does support wwfan's conclusion. You players have average attributes. The conversion rate of your DC is high, but at less that 20% not ridiculous. My DC with outstanding attributes was getting 48%.

So, remind me (us) - is your experience that you are finding the game too easy, but are NOT scoring too many goals from set-pieces?

Exactly. Far too easy - I am playing with a team predicted to relegate - I win the league with GD of 72-34. I don't aim to exploit corners and therefore I don't get many corners goals (there are 5 teams with more goals from corners). Obviously I am scoring a lot from open play, which is where the problem lies for me. My strikers average is about 20% conversion, which is fairly typical. Still can't figure out where the problem lies, but it has something to do with the opponent's retardness in choosing tactics (I beat them without changing anything all season).

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What is the best way round this then. Moving your best headers out of the penalty box?

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Exactly. Far too easy - I am playing with a team predicted to relegate - I win the league with GD of 72-34. I don't aim to exploit corners and therefore I don't get many corners goals (there are 5 teams with more goals from corners). Obviously I am scoring a lot from open play, which is where the problem lies for me. My strikers average is about 20% conversion, which is fairly typical. Still can't figure out where the problem lies, but it has something to do with the opponent's retardness in choosing tactics (I beat them without changing anything all season).

What formation are you using? Are you scoring a lot from indirect free kicks? One thing that is interesting is that your DC only got 5. Where did the other 12 corner goals come from?

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I was just scrolling through my match stats - couldn't help but notice. In most games the long shots ratio is like 6-0 for the opposition as I tend not to shoot from distance as my players are ********. I can't remember seeing many goals scored against me with long shots, which leads me to think that the AI makes its players shoot from distance when they are incapable of doing so and in this way they just waste their chances and possension - can anyone else confirm such an observation?

Example Damrstadt - Chemniz 2:0 (They had 10 shots on goal, 0 on target, 7 Long Shots, wtf?)

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There has always been too many corners in FM for me (attacker waiting for defender to bounce the ball off him to corner thing, very annoying). As I said with Barca I scored 6 goals from ifk and corners with Real only 1 (in 5 comp games). In game where I had 40 shots on goal I only had 1 corner. The main issue here is that players too easily run with ball through the middle and being able to shoot with just one player closing him down. In real life you could easily see 3, 4 or even 5 players which would close him down, as a unit.

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What formation are you using? Are you scoring a lot from indirect free kicks? One thing that is interesting is that your DC only got 5. Where did the other 12 corner goals come from?

Not sure tbh, I guess other players score, too and I used 3 DCs - they have 10 goals total. I am using 4-4-2 (not standard but with not much adjustments). I am scoring a lot with placed shots (63) and headers (25). Assists-wise - Corners (17), Pass (33), Cross (37), Long Ball (2), Mistake (3).

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What is the best way round this then. Moving your best headers out of the penalty box?

That will help lessen the problem, but won't fix it completely since there are at least two other issues that need looking into.

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Exactly. Far too easy - I am playing with a team predicted to relegate - I win the league with GD of 72-34. I don't aim to exploit corners and therefore I don't get many corners goals (there are 5 teams with more goals from corners). Obviously I am scoring a lot from open play, which is where the problem lies for me. My strikers average is about 20% conversion, which is fairly typical. Still can't figure out where the problem lies, but it has something to do with the opponent's retardness in choosing tactics (I beat them without changing anything all season).

Are you a favourite to win matches now? Does the AI play caoutiusly against you?

My experience is that scoring goals and coming into chances is too easy against park the bus tactics. It's boring to watch such games you attack and they pass to each other at the back and then to keeper and again like that. Once I score and AI opens they become more dangerous.

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I was just scrolling through my match stats - couldn't help but notice. In most games the long shots ratio is like 6-0 for the opposition as I tend not to shoot from distance as my players are ********. I can't remember seeing many goals scored against me with long shots, which leads me to think that the AI makes its players shoot from distance when they are incapable of doing so and in this way they just waste their chances and possension - can anyone else confirm such an observation?

Example Damrstadt - Chemniz 2:0 (They had 10 shots on goal, 0 on target, 7 Long Shots, wtf?)

I would put that more down to your team not giving the opp much option but to shoot from long range, if your defence and defensive mids are playing well then the opposition will have no option but to shoot from distance.

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