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FM2012 difficulty.

How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?   1,756 members have voted

  1. 1. How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

    • The game is too easy.
      533
    • The difficulty is about right.
      1081
    • The game is too hard.
      142

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1,762 posts in this topic

[quote name='themadsheep2001']They balance together, no factor really overrides the others[/QUOTE]

That means that everthing is important , like moral f. and MP?


phnompenhandy- i was sayin that its not so important how many posts you have, its more important what you write. quality over quantity. But it had nothing with you individually. Btw, nice number. :)

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Erimus 1876, SI and the whole community should give you a donation for your job, despite the results achived. ( Maybe a pinup girl for one night would be fair IMO )

I would like to deeply thank you and as Matej stated, now we can wait for the patch and then, if it will be the case, we could start again to express opinion on difficulty level.

Told that, SI should take into consideration your CV if I was in SI.

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won league cup in first season with barnsley and currently 10 pts clear at top of championship. only spent 375k.

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[quote name='grep']Erimus 1876, SI and the whole community should give you a donation for your job, despite the results achived. ( Maybe a pinup girl for one night would be fair IMO )

I would like to deeply thank you and as Matej stated, now we can wait for the patch and then, if it will be the case, we could start again to express opinion on difficulty level.

Told that, SI should take into consideration your CV if I was in SI.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Erimus is Jesus. Even if SI has already a guy who simulate 1000 times for test the game and find technical defects, I would take Erimus to help the team without doubt

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[quote name='ReggaeBwoy']Any proof? :)[/QUOTE]

posted ss in here

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/280698-FM12-Barnsley-F.C-Aiming-for-Mid-Table-for-a-Change[/url]!

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Well done on that mate, I really dont't think that can be proof about the game being easy tbh, I don't know to much people who have won the League cup with a championship team. You should be proud about it of good management IMO

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[quote name='Erimus1876']Ok mate I've played 4 games with my four tallest players (2 CD's and 2 CF's) staying back at corners and freekicks.

[B]Game 1: 0-0 Draw[/B]
My Team... 5 corners, 0 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 13, on target, 2.
AI Team.... 4 corners, 2 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 5, on target 2.

[B]Game 2: 2-1 Win[/B]
My Team... 2 corners, 1 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 13, on target 2.
AI Team.... 4 corners, 0 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 15, on target 6.

[B]Game 3: 3-3 Draw[/B]
My Team... 2 corners, 0 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 15, on target 7.
AI Team.... 4 corners, 2 DFKs. 1 goal scored from a DFK. Shots at goal 8, on target 3.

[B]Game 4: 1-0 Win[/B]
My Team... 1 corners, 0 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 8, on target 3.
AI Team.... 2 corners, 0 DFKs. No goals scored from setpieces. Shots at goal 9, on target 0.


[B]Overall for my team:
My team had 10 corners and 1 DFK, no goals scored from any of them.
49 shots at goal, 14 on target, 6 goals scored.[/B]


Here are the 4 pkm's if you need to look at them in finer detail.

[URL]http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPIPO821[/URL]

Cheers :)[/QUOTE]


Thanks. There's your 'smoking gun'.

Conversion ratio with un-nuked set pieces is 1 goal per 4.5 shots. With nuked set pieces 1 goal per 8.2 shots (and conceding at 1 in 9.25). Remove the minor advantages of good morale and match prep (if that is the case) and that conversion ratio will fall to circa 1 in 9 - 10. You'll be able to reduce it with exceptional tactical and man management strategy, but not by default, which is what is happening right now.

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[quote name='wwfan']Thanks. There's your 'smoking gun'.

Conversion ratio with un-nuked set pieces is 1 goal per 4.5 shots. With nuked set pieces 1 goal per 8.2 shots (and conceding at 1 in 9.25). Remove the minor advantages of good morale and match prep (if that is the case) and that conversion ratio will fall to circa 1 in 9 - 10. You'll be able to reduce it with exceptional tactical and man management strategy, but not by default, which is what is happening right now.[/QUOTE]

So are you saying the main issue is goals from indirect free kicks and corners?

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I think SI should really consider hiring Erimus.

Really impressing work.

(In your test you have 8 pts with unbalanced MP and 4 pts with adjusted MP: if we consider you've taken two pretty similar teams and lowered every other difference I think your test is a solid base for SI to look deeper in MP situation).

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[quote name='tottenhamfmo7']What is FMRTE?[/QUOTE]

Football Manager Real Time Editor. Basically a data editor that overwrites certain aspects of your saved game data.

[quote name='wwfan']Thanks. There's your 'smoking gun'.

Conversion ratio with un-nuked set pieces is 1 goal per 4.5 shots. With nuked set pieces 1 goal per 8.2 shots (and conceding at 1 in 9.25). Remove the minor advantages of good morale and match prep (if that is the case) and that conversion ratio will fall to circa 1 in 9 - 10. [B]You'll be able to reduce it with exceptional tactical and man management strategy, but not by default, which is what is happening right now.[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm so someone has to be an excellent tactician and man manager to get their team to create [U]less chances?[/U], just to get more realistic results? I'm sure there a plenty of people in that 30% who've used their own tactics and still overachieved, hell I did on one save. Maybe we need some player made tactics that instead of trying to dominate and beat the AI every way they can, instead nerf your team by deliberately stifiling their attacking and creativty aspects, forefeit setpieces by setting everyone to defend, all just to get a more competative game against the AI. :/



[quote name='Fede_Gu']
(In your test you have 8 pts with unbalanced MP and 4 pts with adjusted MP: if we consider you've taken two pretty similar teams and lowered every other difference I think your test is a solid base for SI to look deeper in MP situation).[/QUOTE]

Yeah I never thought of that, over a season that could amount to a fair few points difference. Still, was too short a test to project it that far. Would be interesting to get a few people who are familiar with fmrte to try it and play a season or two, then compare results to their regular games.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']So are you saying the main issue is goals from indirect free kicks and corners?[/QUOTE]

Yes. It seems that if the user has at least one tall forward and one tall DC, he will score goals from indirect free kicks and corners at a far greater ratio than the AI, even with default settings.

[QUOTE]Hmmm so someone has to be an excellent tactician and man manager to get their team to create [U]less chances?[/U], just to get more realistic results? I'm sure there a plenty of people in that 30% who've used their own tactics and still overachieved, hell I did on one save. Maybe we need some player made tactics that instead of trying to dominate and beat the AI every way they can, instead nerf your team by deliberately stifiling their attacking and creativty aspects, forefeit setpieces by setting everyone to defend, all just to get a more competative game against the AI. :/[/QUOTE]

At the moment nerfing your set pieces will make the game fair. The required ME/AI fix is to give the AI more chance of scoring from set pieces and reduce users' chances. However, until that is in place, you will have to do it manually by deliberately undermining your own routines.

Once this is fair, you will then win through being good strategically, tactically and man managerially, as by doing those things right, you'll create genuine and realistic good chances. Currently, all you have to do is win free kicks and corners and have a relatively stable defence.

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[quote name='wwfan']Yes. It seems that if the user has at least one tall forward and one tall DC, he will score goals from indirect free kicks and corners at a far greater ratio than the AI, even with default settings.



At the moment nerfing your set pieces will make the game fair. The required ME/AI fix is to give the AI more chance of scoring from set pieces and reduce users' chances. However, until that is in place, you will have to do it manually by deliberately undermining your own routines.

[B]Once this is fair, you will then win through being good strategically, tactically and man managerially, as by doing those things right, you'll create genuine and realistic good chances. Currently, all you have to do is win free kicks and corners and have a relatively stable defence.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think this is what we're all hoping for, especially those who say just by pressing continue they can win the league (I never experienced it that bad myself though).

Do you think the poor AI MPs have any impact at all? The short term tests I did hinted at it somewhat, but granted they need to be much more prolonged to know for sure.

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[quote name='wwfan']Yes. It seems that if the user has at least one tall forward and one tall DC, he will score goals from indirect free kicks and corners at a far greater ratio than the AI, even with default settings.



At the moment nerfing your set pieces will make the game fair. The required ME/AI fix is to give the AI more chance of scoring from set pieces and reduce users' chances. However, until that is in place, you will have to do it manually by deliberately undermining your own routines.

Once this is fair, you will then win through being good strategically, tactically and man managerially, as by doing those things right, you'll create genuine and realistic good chances. Currently, all you have to do is win free kicks and corners and have a relatively stable defence.[/QUOTE]

But that must be fixed. WHats the point in having tall strikers if I cant put them to score goals in set pieces . That makes entire position of tall strikers unplayable!

wwfan what do you think, can they quickly fix this bug??

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[quote name='Matej']But that must be fixed. WHats the point in having tall strikers if I cant put them to score goals in set pieces . That makes entire position of tall strikers unplayable!

wwfan what do you think, can they quickly fix this bug??[/QUOTE]

This was an issue with FM2011, so it could be tricky to solve it, imo.

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I think there are probably three issues. The first, and core issue, is the high conversion rate from set pieces for user teams employing at least one tall forward and one tall DC versus the terrible conversion rate from AI teams. As Erimus's kind testing of nerfed set pieces illustrated, undermining your dead ball routines halves your chances of scoring and puts them in the realms of the realistic (you'd expect somewhere between 1 in 8 to 1 in 11. 1 in 4.5 is unmatchable by the AI).

Secondly and thirdly, the user's ability to keep morale high and have good match prep ensures the defence is stable, which makes it even harder for the AI to score in open play against user teams. Note that user teams that win through pressing continue have very low goals against but nothing special in the goals for columns. That is consistent with what I've seen in these games. The user team doesn't create masses of chances, so the goals for won't be hugely impressive, but does convert chances too regularly. The morale and tactical prep advantages then keep the score down at the other end.

[QUOTE]
But that must be fixed. WHats the point in having tall strikers if I cant put them to score goals in set pieces . That makes entire position of tall strikers unplayable!

wwfan what do you think, can they quickly fix this bug??[/QUOTE]

I'm sure it will be fixed. Finding the problem is always the most difficult issue, as this thread proves. Once you know what it is, you have something to aim at. Although, right now, don't let that be a tall player's head if you want a competitive gaming experience.

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Cheers for that insight wwfan :) Looks like my 6ft 6' striker is going in the reserves for a while! :thdn:

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[quote name='Erimus1876']Cheers for that insight wwfan :) Looks like my 6ft 6' striker is going in the reserves for a while! :thdn:[/QUOTE]

As long as you don't send him up for set pieces, you can play him, as his attribute advantages will be realistic in open play. Even smaller players can be dangerous from set pieces, so you won't completely prevent scoring opportunities for dead ball situations. Just keep them in the realms of the realistic.

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wwfan,

But in last year version, there was already a issue with the number of goals scored by "human teams" from set pieces (in particulary from corners). I think we all remember the threads talking about the corners taken at the first post.

My point is, this issue was already in last year version, but with FM2011 there was no discussion about the game beeing too easy.

Isn't a bit strange that the same issue is causing the game to be too easy this year?

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I think this thread has illustrated just how hard QA and testing can be. We've had multiple eyes looking at the problem from a variety of different angles, yet it has taken two weeks to determine the issues. It also looks like it is a combination of issues as well, which makes it even harder to find the key problems.

For what it is worth, I made a number of bad guesses in some pkms PaulC forwarded me. I was wrong many more time than I was right. It took a long look into an end of season 'too easy' game to identify the problem with high conversion ratios. The problem also isn't obvious at all because the number of goals scored by a single player from set pieces isn't stupidly high, but within the realms of possibility. You had to look at the scoring ratio of players in pretty much every team to identify where the issue was, then see if it was repeated in other saves (thanks Erimus for the info), then if it was preventable by removing the identified issues (with thanks again to Erimus for doing so).

In the end it came down to user teams having a better conversion ratio (somewhere between 1 goal in 4.5 to 6.8 shots) than the best AI ratio (1 goal in 7.8 shots, which is very unusual as well as most AI teams are a fair bit higher). Once you've identified that, you just have to pin down the players that were distorting the ratio and look at the pkms to see how they were scoring. Add in some other minor user advantages and voila, you have your 'win by pressing continue' seasons.

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Definitely making great strides here. However, wwfan, in the BSN I have poor corner takers and my forwards/DCs are not great headers at all, yet I was still scoring from an inordinate number of corners (but almost none from free kicks).

Erimus - just have him stay back or lurk outside the box.

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']wwfan,

But in last year version, there was already a issue with the number of goals scored by "human teams" from set pieces (in particulary from corners). I think we all remember the threads talking about the corners taken at the first post.

My point is, this issue was already in last year version, but with FM2011 there was no discussion about the game beeing too easy.

Isn't a bit strange that the same issue is causing the game to be too easy this year?[/QUOTE]

I don't know what might have changed. Something in the default setting for user teams perhaps. It might have been an extremely slight change in logic, with a massive knock on. It might even be that the good user morale / poor AI match prep issues is harming the AI's ability to defend set pieces as well. I suspect it is all tied together.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']Definitely making great strides here. However, wwfan, in the BSN I have poor corner takers and my forwards/DCs are not great headers at all, yet I was still scoring from an inordinate number of corners (but almost none from free kicks).

Erimus - just have him stay back or lurk outside the box.[/QUOTE]

Check your player stats to see who is well over expected conversion ratios. Anything above 1 in 4 (for a striker) or one in 7 (for anybody else) for regular goal scorers and you have identified the issue. Also check your overall conversion ratio and measure against the rest of the division.

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Okay. Alas I'm in pre-season of 2nd season now, but fortunately I save and keep the save every month, so I will load up the Mat 2012 file and check it now.

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[quote name='wwfan']I don't know what might have changed. Something in the default setting for user teams perhaps. It might have been an extremely slight change in logic, with a massive knock on. It might even be that the good user morale / poor AI match prep issues is harming the AI's ability to defend set pieces as well. I suspect it is all tied together.[/QUOTE]

A bit off topic:

This what i'm afraid when people talk about introducing difficulty levels in FM.
This game, have so many details that influence each other. A simple change in one area of the game, can make major influence in various aspects of the game.
If then introduce difficulty levels, bu changing some aspects of the game (for example to make it harder), what would be the consequences in other areas of the game? I think that nobofy would know.
This could leave us, with so many bugs.

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[I]MAY[/I] 2012 - end of season stats:

My DC and captain (he does have good atts - 15 jump, 15 head, 17 str) - 15 goals (inc. 2 pens). Goals/shots 48%, on target/goals 67%
Other DC (17 jump, 16 head, 9 str) - 5 goals 21% 47%

Main striker (12 jump, 12 head, 13 str) - 36 goals 29% 56%
Second striker (6 jump, 6 head, 7 str) - 29 goals 26% 55%


BSN shots on target:

1. my captain 72%
2. my #1 striker 57%
3. other 55%, then 54%, 53% .... my next player on the list is down in 69th! I think striker #2 and other players are missing because I rested them at the end of the season and played the kids. I kept only the skipper in the first team squad for leadership and striker #1 to break records.


So, my simplistic interpretation is that #1 striker is just damn good - my highest-paid player and clearly the best forward in the division, so his stats are great but not odd.
The stand out stats are my captain, a DC who scored a lot of goals from corners (not all headers). He's also an exceptional player at this level, but should never have stats like that.

What's more my DC#2 has good but reasonable stats. His jumping/heading is better than DC'#1; the key difference appears to be the Strength of the DC#1.
The set piece instruction for DC#1 is 'attack far post' (DC#2 attack near post). It is striker #1 who challenges the keeper. My best corner-taker has 11 for corners.

HTH

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Good analysis. The 48% ratio is the main issue and the one that is really distorting the game. You'll actually find a number of AI DCs who have a similar or higher conversion ratio. However, they don't have anywhere as near the number of shots (maybe 6-12 per season).

The FCs high scoring ratios are likely to be knock ons from the set piece issue. Because you have a certain number of 'easy' goals during a season (circa 1 every 3 games), the opposition is forced to play a more open style of play than they might have done otherwise. This results in more space for your FCs. If, as I suspect, the morale / match prep is knocking onto a slightly more stable defence, and perhaps a weaker 'open style' for the AI as it isn't trained, then you are going to clean up the division.

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Makes perfect sense. My forwards score very few with their heads. I studiously keep the ball on the floor in open play. As you say, the effects of the [I]super-DC-from corners[/I] problem on the opposition (open play, damaged morale [morale], no plan B [AI MP]) ensure that my forwards get plenty CCCs in most games.

So we've found the 'smoking gun', but let's not fall into the trap of assuming the easy morale and AI poor MP are red herrings' they are issues that need addressing in their own right (Paul!)

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Interesting to see my theory about corner goals is turning out to be true here.(suggested earlier in the thread) Noticed it early on in one of my games.

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[quote name='SeanNUFC']Interesting to see my theory about corner goals is turning out to be true here.(suggested earlier in the thread) Noticed it early on in one of my games.[/QUOTE]

I think the failure to recognise it was because we already knew there was a 'corner bug' of sorts. If you have a player scoring 20+ goals from corners over a season, you know there is a big issue. Currently, that is only possible by manipulating routines.

What we had is a player scoring circa 15 goals from set pieces (in the game I used to find the problem, the DC had also scored 15, just as in phnompenhandy's game). This isn't a red flag in itself, but only when taken in conjunction with the conversion ratio. There will also have been a few other goals scored by players following up or in different positions. The increased likelihood of a user scoring a goal from a set piece then knocks onto all the open play issues discussed above.

Looking at individual pkms was a waste of time as they couldn't be taken in context with the overall season. Likewise, testing AI teams over a whole season isn't going to help as all the stats are going to match up to expectations. The only way to find the problem was to analyse a whole season of matches in which the user found the game too easy. That firstly requires the user to be worried about the easiness, then be prepared to report it and upload his game. It also needed the user to have a certain type of player to even generate the core issue, which is why it hasn't been a consistent problem for everyone.

From my perspective, this has been one of the toughest 'whys' I've ever seen in FM. I suspect Paul will agree.

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Have to say, massive :thup: for your complete honesty in this wwfan - no attempt to hide behind diplomacy or patronise us.

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Yeah, really appreciate this thread.

Just to clarify, what exactly is it that we can do then, at present, to try and make the game a bit more challenging?

I've heard the expression "nuke" your set-piece settings...but what does that entail exactly?

I think FM2012 is the best version yet in terms of the game itself, but the ease with which I'm rolling teams over is as depressing as losing every game!

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']Have to say, massive :thup: for your complete honesty in this wwfan - no attempt to hide behind diplomacy or patronise us.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. In the context of the thread as a whole, I thought it was important to do a few things:

1: Highlight the difficulty of catching issues. Too many times I've seen forum users complain that SI's testers aren't doing a good job. Finding the problem(s) in this instance took an awful lot of effort from an awful lot of people.

2: Provide a workaround for people who want a challenging game before there is an update.

3: Dismiss the silly conspiracy rumours about SI intentionally dumbing the game down for mass market / console user appeal. The problem is, quite simply, an extremely well hidden and subtle bug that will only affect users with certain types of players in certain tactical positions.

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[quote name='jro1982']
Just to clarify, what exactly is it that we can do then, at present, to try and make the game a bit more challenging?

I've heard the expression "nuke" your set-piece settings...but what does that entail exactly? [/QUOTE]

In previous versions people could exploit the Match Engine with certain set-piece settings, thus making their DC score 30+ goals per season. In FM12 bizarrely, the default settings do that, so you get too many goals from set-pieces even when you're not trying to. What happens is that if you have a particularly big muscly defender or striker going for the ball, he'll score from an unrealistic proportion of chances.

Therefore, the 'nuclear' option is to keep your powerful player away from the 6 yard box for set-pieces. To do that, you need to go into the set-pieces creator and manually move him out of the way.


I'll repeat a point I made a couple of days ago - when the fix is out there will be a massive outcry from gamers outraged that their DC has stopped scoring from every corner. Ha!

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wwfan, to tie the problem down a little more, how about my stats above: My DC#1 had an unrealistic number of chances and goals, but my DC#2 was within the realms of acceptability. Why? Remember that #2 has better jumping and heading attributes. Is it:

1. DC#1's STRENGTH is the decisive factor?
2. The position at corners - DC#1 set to attack far post - is the problem with 'challenge keeper' and 'attack far post' settings? (how do free kick stats compare?)
3. Is it both in conjunction?
4. Is it one of these factors in conjunction with something else?

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']wwfan, to tie the problem down a little more, how about my stats above: My DC#1 had an unrealistic number of chances and goals, but my DC#2 was within the realms of acceptability. Why? Remember that #2 has better jumping and heading attributes. Is it:

1. DC#1's STRENGTH is the decisive factor?
2. The position at corners - DC#1 set to attack far post - is the problem with 'challenge keeper' and 'attack far post' settings? (how do free kick stats compare?)
3. Is it both in conjunction?
4. Is it one of these factors in conjunction with something else?[/QUOTE]


#2 is still pretty high. 1 in 5 is too good for a player who is only a threat at set pieces. As for the the questions, only Paul can really answer those. Personally, I think the far post header is more dangerous than the near post one because the player is meeting the ball and heading it back in roughly the direction it is coming from, not trying to divert the angle. That would be realistic too. It also puts the 'challenge keeper' player into play, who can divert balls headed straight at the keeper past him. Strength may be a factor as well, of course.

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I definitely love this thread. It highlights the complexity of every simulation : tweak a little bit some factor, ruin the balance of the simulation.

I'll take a look at my game where I'm clearly overachieving, but last time I checked I had about 15% of my goals on corners, and not too much by my tall players.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']Have to say, massive :thup: for your complete honesty in this wwfan - no attempt to hide behind diplomacy or patronise us.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='xavierm']I definitely love this thread. It highlights the complexity of every simulation : tweak a little bit some factor, ruin the balance of the simulation.
[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with these :thup:. Its been a frustrating ride at times with a few late nights of testing stuff but I enjoyed it and learned a lot. And the best thing is on the whole this threadnaught has been well mannered and very informative throughout from all sides of the FM12 experience. :applause:

And at least we've got an insight into how we can temporaily reduce certain aspects or improve others in the game now, to make it a better challenge to those seeking one while waiting for the official patch :)

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[quote name='xavierm']I definitely love this thread. It highlights the complexity of every simulation : tweak a little bit some factor, ruin the balance of the simulation.

I'll take a look at my game where I'm clearly overachieving, but last time I checked I had about 15% of my goals on corners, and not too much by my tall players.[/QUOTE]

The percentage of total is less important than the conversion ratio for the target defender and your overall goals/shots ratio. If they are too good (generated by set pieces and with open play knock ons), the AI won't be able to compete.

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Fantastic that the problem has been found and it does help a lot to explaining why i dont suffer, because of the FM11 corner bug i had set my corners up so they aim towards my two smaller strikers, which means i dont score a lot from corners or freekicks. Plus for the 1st 5 seasons my best freekick taker had 11 for the attribute and very rarely hit the intended target,

Its brilliant to see this thread lasted the course and we got to the bottom of it, big well done to Erimus for all his testing, and a big thanks to wwfan and Paul for giving this so much attention.

Now if only GD was this nice all the time!! hahaha :)

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Isn't it strange that this corner issue happens only to user teams? I would expect any player with proper ability to score unrealistic number of goals.

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Somewhat dissapointed by this conclusion, we know for a while that there are a lot goals from set pieces on FM surely the people that complained about the game being too easy noticed that they were scoring a very high number of goals from set pieces? (namely corners).

So the people that were winning everything just pressing continue didn't noticed that they were scoring 30 goals/season (made up number to prove the point) from corners?

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I do not believe it! The ME is straight and AI teams have tall players?

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It's not 30 goals. It's mid teens, which is why it is difficult to spot. The problem is the high conversion ratio, when user teams score at a goal every 4.5 - 6.5 shots meaning they can play quite conservatively yet guarantee goals. If DCs were scoring 30+ goals, it would have been spotted in a second.

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But how come it's not happening to AI teams, they also have all the big guys upfront? Match prep, morale? I think that's the real question.

10 or 15 goals per season for a DC is almost equally unrealistic as scoring 30 :D

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[quote name='knap']I do not believe it! The ME is straight and AI teams have tall players?[/QUOTE]

Don't believe it all you want. It is the reason. Go through your own saves to check.

Because it was absolutely imperative the AI didn't score too many goals from corners, it seems like the knock on is that their set piece routines were so bad they hardly scored any. Delivery accuracy would have been tweaked up to ensure they were scoring at the right ratio (dead ball v open play goals). Consequently, any half decent user routine dominates.

Weren't you pretty scathing abut ME testing? This issue highlights exactly how difficult it is to spot problems. 1000 plus posts and two weeks before any solid progress has been made.

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