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FM2012 difficulty.

How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?   1,756 members have voted

  1. 1. How are you finding the difficulty on FM2012?

    • The game is too easy.
      533
    • The difficulty is about right.
      1081
    • The game is too hard.
      142

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1,762 posts in this topic

[quote name='cressers']Kriss you are not being pedantic maybe priggish; a minority does not have to be below 50% and visa versa for majority[/QUOTE]

he was joking mate.

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Its not like that, listen, they make the game for everyone, so called hardcore fans, so called casual fans, everyone. They cannot just focus all of their efforts to appease one group of us, thats not good business and it will not make a better FM. Die hard fans alone will not keep SI in business, they have to make sure the game appeals to as many people as possible. At the same time it is very important they listen to all groups of players, which they do, devs are posting in this thread and engaging in discussion about it all, more than you will get from most developers.

You suggest the game has become easier than Fm04, i would suggest in the 8 years that have passed since that game you have become a lot better at FM, never mind better at football management or anything, better at understanding how FM works. There is little SI can do about that. You stated off by saying those who find the game hard are idiots or mentally ill i think was your turn of phrase, without really thinking about those new to the game, those with less experience than you, and those who perhaps dont understand football that well, you make the game too hard and you lose all of their custom very quickly. Old FM's were not that hard, they really werent, otherwise a lot of us would not have played this game so long, you dont play a game for as long as i have done if its too difficult to enjoy and to succeed at, btw i have played FM for about 15 years, and i do not find it any easier than FM12, that is an honest answer.
Sure i will easily say there is still a lot of scope for improving FM especially long terms games, but i dont for one second think SI are ignoring people who play the game like me or only concentrating on one group of players.

Its fantastic you are so pasionate about FM and im sure SI love the fact they have fans so vocal and engaging about their game, but if you do feel this strongly then why not try and help, so far there is nothing you have posted in this thread that would give Paul or Riz or any dev, any sort of indication as to why your finding the game too easy, you have the ability to help improve what you feel are the games weak points, again most developers dont really care or let you engage to this level, so put it to good use, upload games, upload PKM's engage in proper discussion, that is why this thread is still open, its proving useful for the best part, with good discussion, add too it.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Its not like that, listen, they make the game for everyone, so called hardcore fans, so called casual fans, everyone. They cannot just focus all of their efforts to appease one group of us, thats not good business and it will not make a better FM. Die hard fans alone will not keep SI in business, they have to make sure the game appeals to as many people as possible. At the same time it is very important they listen to all groups of players, which they do, devs are posting in this thread and engaging in discussion about it all, more than you will get from most developers.

You suggest the game has become easier than Fm04, i would suggest in the 8 years that have passed since that game you have become a lot better at FM, never mind better at football management or anything, better at understanding how FM works. There is little SI can do about that. You stated off by saying those who find the game hard are idiots or mentally ill i think was your turn of phrase, without really thinking about those new to the game, those with less experience than you, and those who perhaps dont understand football that well, you make the game too hard and you lose all of their custom very quickly. Old FM's were not that hard, they really werent, otherwise a lot of us would not have played this game so long, you dont play a game for as long as i have done if its too difficult to enjoy and to succeed at, btw i have played FM for about 15 years, and i do not find it any easier than FM12, that is an honest answer.
Sure i will easily say there is still a lot of scope for improving FM especially long terms games, but i dont for one second think SI are ignoring people who play the game like me or only concentrating on one group of players.

Its fantastic you are so pasionate about FM and im sure SI love the fact they have fans so vocal and engaging about their game, but if you do feel this strongly then why not try and help, so far there is nothing you have posted in this thread that would give Paul or Riz or any dev, any sort of indication as to why your finding the game too easy, you have the ability to help improve what you feel are the games weak points, again most developers dont really care or let you engage to this level, so put it to good use, upload games, upload PKM's engage in proper discussion, that is why this thread is still open, its proving useful for the best part, with good discussion, add too it.[/QUOTE]

I actually fully agree with this statement, I remember back in the old FM days I use to struggle but I hardly payed attention to the tactics and how to approach different games but as I play it more I just get more familiar with the game, because I have still looked at other team threads and seen FM players who have had realistic results, there are a few in the Liverpool thread who missed out on European qualification and got battered by West Brom for instance.

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Well, If anyone wants PKM's from my totally unrealistic Darmstadt season, I am happy to share them. I deleted my previous save in frustration, but I am still playing this one so I can generate the PKMs. As to why the issue appears - I have no idea. I guess if you get the tactics right once and then don't change anything, then you keep winning and as you win, the morale goes up and you win even more - no effort at all for the player. I wish I knew why it is so easy, but if the developers don't know (that is what they say, whether it's true I don't know) how am I supposed to know?

I never said don't pay attention to the masses of new players as I do realize SI gets a lot of $$$ from them, but the only reason they buy the game that much is people that have played the game for ages tell them how great it is and how much we love it. If we start saying the opposite, do you think there will be so many new players buying the game. I just want the needs of both type of players to be addressed, if it is impossible we must be told, otherwise it isn't very fair on SI's part.

Anyway, when I finish a couple of seasons on my current save and the situation stays the same, I will upload match reports.

Regarding, the previous version vs 12 version - I will give you FIFA as an example again (I am a fan of PES generally but FIFA made some good improvements recently, that is why I am giving them as an example) - FIFA was simple and easy in the beginning - you add power to your shot and you score. To tackle the issue they added manual controls, goalkeeper skill, etc to add to the game difficuty for experienced players as someone that has played FIFA '98 wouldn't enjoy FIFA 12 if it was as challenging as 98. That is why it evolved into a more cahllenging game. FM is the opposite - even if, in the best case scenario you say CM 01 was as harf as FM12 (which I still think is easier), then it means SI hasn't done anything to make the game harder for experienced players who know the ins and outs of the game. So why EA can do it and SI can't (I know there is the issue of company size, but FM does generate a lot of salesrecently so they should have resources)?

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Tbh, a comment to contradict my last post is that some guy recently posted in the Bayern thread and has claimed that he is shocked with the results himself after beating Real Madrid 5-1. When I see those sort of results I do worry to be truthful

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[quote name='ReggaeBwoy']Tbh, a comment to contradict my last post is that some guy recently posted in the Bayern thread and has claimed that he is shocked with the results himself after beating Real Madrid 5-1. When I see those sort of results I do worry to be truthful[/QUOTE]

Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back! :)

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[quote name='alexyfoot']Well, If anyone wants PKM's from my totally unrealistic Darmstadt season, I am happy to share them. I deleted my previous save in frustration, but I am still playing this one so I can generate the PKMs. As to why the issue appears - I have no idea. I guess if you get the tactics right once and then don't change anything, then you keep winning and as you win, the morale goes up and you win even more - no effort at all for the player. I wish I knew why it is so easy, but if the developers don't know (that is what they say, whether it's true I don't know) how am I supposed to know?

I never said don't pay attention to the masses of new players as I do realize SI gets a lot of $$$ from them, but the only reason they buy the game that much is people that have played the game for ages tell them how great it is and how much we love it. If we start saying the opposite, do you think there will be so many new players buying the game. I just want the needs of both type of players to be addressed, if it is impossible we must be told, otherwise it isn't very fair on SI's part.

Anyway, when I finish a couple of seasons on my current save and the situation stays the same, I will upload match reports.[/QUOTE]

If you have PKM's and save games avaliable i would suggest uploading them to the FTP server, details in the link at the bottom of the post, and let one of the dev's know the name and why you have uploaded it. We can only speculate, they can actually look at what is going on behind the scenes and hopefully figure out why people are having this problem. There is no point in developing conspiracy stories about the reasoning behind it, lets stick to facts.

Again you have to realise that your one side of one side of an argument, i am also a long term FMer who doesnt find the game too easy, as are others who have posted in this thread, if it was as simple as all long term FMers then SI would be able to work from that, but its not, its a select group of people, from both sides, both new and long term gamers, hence why this is proving to be such an issue for SI, it appears to be effected circumstantially rather than code specific. They will adjust things when they are happy with the changes they have made, Paul has already stated that, anything that can be done to help him with this decision can only be a good thing.

FTP detals:

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/276528-FTP-Instructions[/url]

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[quote name='alexyfoot']Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back! :)[/QUOTE]

If Basel is playing 3-3 at Old Trafford in your game, please write back. :)

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[quote name='KUBI']If Basel is playing 3-3 at Old Trafford in your game, please write back. :)[/QUOTE]

:) good one! :) that was one hell of a game.

milner, thanks for the link, I will upload some details when I accumulate more matches. Hopefully, someone will bother to look at them.

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Pretty frustrated. Just had a full season with Liverpool, not much budget, couldnt sell off some of the crap that were already bought for this season while every other club was happily buying this or that new player. Had difficulty from the start, came 6th, won the FA Cup, got fired. Completely and totally unrealistic that liverpool would fire their manager first season after not doing that badly really. Sure 6th isnt impressive at all, but FA cup win and having to suffer Carrol and Downing for instance, I think I did good. Beyond annoying.

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I'm actually finding the game to be much more difficult than FM11. Player morale seems much more volatile (I've seen a "Spirited" player go from Superb to Poor morale over the course of a match we won where he earned an 8.2 rating and I used Calm "Have Faith" at the half) and even "Superb" morale players seem to start "playing nervously" at the drop of a hat even if you use gentle team talks when playing against smaller teams.

[quote name='ReggaeBwoy']I actually fully agree with this statement, I remember back in the old FM days I use to struggle but I hardly payed attention to the tactics and how to approach different games but as I play it more I just get more familiar with the game, because I have still looked at other team threads and seen FM players who have had realistic results, there are a few in the Liverpool thread who missed out on European qualification and got battered by West Brom for instance.[/QUOTE]

I'm playing Liverpool and I'm starting to think Liverpool in particular may just be a really difficult team to manage, probably because the vast gulf between the team's reputation and the actual quality of their players. I played a couple of teams in the demo (Arsenal, Schalke, Southampton) and had none of the crazy morale issues I'm getting with Liverpool.

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[quote name='Coentrao']That's what confuses me, i haven't found anything that easy so far, are you playing with just a default 442 as well or are you creating your own tactics?

To me it's being somewhat the same as FM11.[/QUOTE]
i'm right there with ya.

i think the reason there isn't much discussion about it being normal is because the vast majority of us are just playing without having an issue. just like my post and a few others showing normal results and being completely ignored by people. *shrug*

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the point isnt about these one off results that ppl are mentioning,YES,they do happen in real life.....the point is the game is too easy by far by doing little or nothing at all even with the smaller clubs.
ive been playing these games since the original on the amiga many years ago as well as every other football manager type game there has been,and do you know back then when i was much younger the 1st test i would do was to do absolutely nothing with the team,tactics etc and press continue for the first few weeks.my theory back then was if i won most of my matches the game would be binned,and obviously if i kept losing,which you should do by rights,its a game worth playing.may of been childish back then but you know what?? its a valid theory for me in this years FM12....and although i havent binned it as such,it has been uninstalled and FM11 put back on.

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[quote name='Matej']hugo_rune- and all others who think that to be a manager of stronger club is easy job in real life, you dont know much about football, im 100 % sure about that. Do you really thing its easier to be manager of lets say Tottenham, then Barnet? O yes, manager of Barent has more pressure on his back, lol. THats why manager of Tottenham is in hospital right now. Manager of low league club can be in hospital only after heavy eating and drinking after the game with his players.[/QUOTE]

Did I say it was, or should be, easier to manage those teams in real life? ;)

My point is that difficulty should be based on what you want to achieve, and how easy it will be for the club you choose to get those results. Want an easy game, pick Manchester United and try to win the Premier League. Want a hard game, pick Sunderland and try to win the Champions League. Want a really hard game, pick Droylsden and try to get to the top of the English football pyramid. All of these options can - and should - be made harder, but not by putting artificial modifiers on the AI's performance vs human performance, but by removing exploits, and enabling the AI to make decisions that lead to more relative success - which is the sort of thing they're working on, and I'm really thrilled to see the response by SI on these issues, they are all incremental changes but hopefully they will combine to make the experience more challenging.

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[quote name='KUBI']If you have 3 difficulty levels in the game, it needs to be developed and balanced for 3 levels and it has to be tested on all 3 levels. The increase of possible bugs and man-power it would use to develop and test it is something that could become a nightmare for a smaller software company.[/QUOTE]

This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

To me, it is a non sense statement.

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[quote name='grep']This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

To me, it is a non sense statement.[/QUOTE]


yup..totally agree.i think the best kind of difficulty level will be a moddable ini/editor file like Erimus has said previously.

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[quote name='alexyfoot']Second season with Napoli I beat Barca on CL 1/4 final 3:1 at home after 1:2 loss away. When Napoli beats Barca 3:1 in real life, please do write back! :)[/QUOTE]

You mean you beat them 4-3 on aggregate? Napoli are a very good side. Barca are the worlds best side. The beauty of football is that these results do happen. Barca re the best but they do lose. IMO they have a slightly (only slightly) inflated reputation in England because Man Utd played the same stupid open 442 against them in 2 consecutive CL finals and got spanked.

To add my two pennies I am finding fm12 fairly tough but engaging, currently top of the champ with Norwich after 2 seasons in mid table with Donny. I hate the idea of difficulty levels because I feel any discussion would have to involve saying what level you are on, not to mention bugs and stuff

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[quote name='grep']This is not a valid reason because each game in the market works like that.

So, do not add gear changing in cars because otherwise they have to be tested in 1st gear, 2nd gear, reverse....

To me, it is a non sense statement.[/QUOTE]

Odd analogy, because they do get thoroughly tested in all gears. Also car testing is a life and death situation so it is necessary, this is one of the many reasons why cars cost lots of money.

There would undoubtably be loads of knock on effects no matter how you adjusted ' difficulty'

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the vast majority of games have difficulty levels so why not any FM games...and dont be giving me its more complex than other games blah blah blah!!!
i dont see the problem why people would have a problem with it....if you think the difficulty now is ok...well just select the default/normal difficulty....simple.

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I keep on not seeing while roughly 95-100% of world games have difficulty levels while FM seems to treat them as Kryptonite.

Is there a radioactive contamination involved ?

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I'm not worried about one off results - they can happen.

It's unnatural levels of consistency that we need to focus on. The Palermo save on the FTP would be useful.....

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I won the serie A with Palermo in the first season at FM11 too, soo if that's the only case, then it's nothing new. We all know that with an above average squad, and good tactics, you can win the league, except from Spain where it should take a little while longer since Barcelona tend to "not lose" points

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[quote name='grep']I keep on not seeing while roughly 95-100% of world games have difficulty levels while FM seems to treat them as Kryptonite.

Is there a radioactive contamination involved ?[/QUOTE]


lol..funny :)
maybe its too much for their programmers to achieve :P....joke!

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I think the main problems are the moral levels (and keep high), too many goals on human team, no need to change the tactics, you win easily without change a tactic.. i think this is quite obvious

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[quote name='alexyfoot']SI can't make AI smart enough to provide a challenge for the typical experienced player[/QUOTE]

Name one game dev that has produced a challenging AI opponent without resorting to resource bias

you can't - noone can

because AI is damn hard to write; those chess programs know every single last possibility of every move

but in FM or TW or Civ or Gal Civ or SotS or w/e that's impossible

So yeah, SI can't write challenging AI - that's not peculiar to 12, that's been the case for years

My save in 11 with saints, when we eventually made it into the prem I saw players I'd cast off in the championship years before (like elliot grandin) in the first teams of Tottenham, Everton and Villa. The standard of prem teams was barely higher than championship, with only Arsenal and City having any real quality we made the Euro Cup in our second season and the CL in the thrird, while Chelsea tried to keep their despicable team together with a couple of decent players and Man U signed players I would have avoided for tens of millions - but still remained in CL spots for years, because the league was crap

What I'm saying is that signing the wrong players and playing them the wrong way is nothing new, and it won't be fixed in the forseeable

So the only way for players like you to have a challenging game is to play against resource favored AI - which you can do now by opening up the editor and giving every other team in the world ten times their annual income every year - if you're so desperate for difficulty levels, go now and do this and you'll see plain as day why nobody wants the damn things, because this is how they always turn out in the end

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[quote name='DuddBudda']Name one game dev that has produced a challenging AI opponent without resorting to resource bias

you can't - noone can

because AI is damn hard to write; those chess programs know every single last possibility of every move

but in FM or TW or Civ or Gal Civ or SotS or w/e that's impossible

So yeah, SI can't write challenging AI - that's not peculiar to 12, that's been the case for years

My save in 11 with saints, when we eventually made it into the prem I saw players I'd cast off in the championship years before (like elliot grandin) in the first teams of Tottenham, Everton and Villa. The standard of prem teams was barely higher than championship, with only Arsenal and City having any real quality we made the Euro Cup in our second season and the CL in the thrird, while Chelsea tried to keep their despicable team together with a couple of decent players and Man U signed players I would have avoided for tens of millions - but still remained in CL spots for years, because the league was crap

What I'm saying is that signing the wrong players and playing them the wrong way is nothing new, and it won't be fixed in the forseeable

So the only way for players like you to have a challenging game is to play against resource favored AI - which you can do now by opening up the editor and giving every other team in the world ten times their annual income every year - if you're so desperate for difficulty levels, go now and do this and you'll see plain as day why nobody wants the damn things, because this is how they always turn out in the end[/QUOTE]

So in order to enjoy FM from now on, I have to make all club finances totally unrealistic. What fun is that? I still haven't seen anything from SI saying" we can't do it", I keep seeing" we don't want to do it". There is a big difference.

Just finished my first season with darmstadt (won the league using "spacebar" tactics of not doing anything on my 31 gameday - 81 pts from 31 games....then decided to go on holiday so that I don't waste my time - my assistant did "great" - 5 points from 7 games!). So, going on holiday provides realistic results for the worst team in the league, but if it is me pressing the spacebar then I keep winning...just great.

Paul - if it was isolated case, we wouldn't have 1000 posts in 2-3 weeks after game release. Why do you keep denying an obvious problem. You can have my season 1 save with Darmstadt, if someone is willing to look at it I will upload it. I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation of why I became a champion without doing anything with 1 of the relegation candidates :)

Btw, I can't think of many games with difficulty settings that have to resort to resource control to make the game harder...I'd give you a few examples like Medieval Total War, Need For Speed Shift, CoD MW, FIFA12 - all different type of games, where if you play on hard the AI seems smarter than you and you tend to find the game challenging. None of them use resource control to adjust difficulty, it is simply a change in AI. As far as I am aware SI is the only one to refuse doing so.

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I'm not denying or confirming anything I'm simply trying to investigate.

Pls upload the save to our FTP and I will look at it. If you have any save from earlier in the season pls upload that too :-)

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[quote name='alexyfoot']
Btw, I can't think of many games with difficulty settings that have to resort to resource control to make the game harder...I'd give you a few examples like Medieval Total War, Need For Speed Shift, CoD MW, FIFA12 - all different type of games, where if you play on hard the AI seems smarter than you and you tend to find the game challenging. None of them use resource control to adjust difficulty, it is simply a change in AI. As far as I am aware SI is the only one to refuse doing so.[/QUOTE]

All flavours of Total War use both resource modifications and rule modifications (morale adjustments), along with changes to AI aggression. The AI is no smarter at 'very hard' than it is at 'very easy'. I've never played the other games as I'm a strategy gamer, not an action gamer.

One thing you - and others - don't seem to understand is that Football Manager isn't just a game, it's a simulation. A good simulation will [I]never[/I] have difficulty levels, particularly where you are competing against other entities in the simulation, in this case, clubs.

I might add, the biggest issue with "fixing" the AI clubs by giving them bonus resources (and maybe other advantages, such as a percentage attribute boosts) - which is what you guys are asking for by asking for difficulty levels, as that is the only way that difficulty levels ever work in practice - is that it papers over other issues in the game, such as exploits and AI poor decision making. Those latter issues are what should be fixed, as much as possible, and then the difficulty issue looks after itself.

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[quote name='hugo_rune']All flavours of Total War use both resource modifications and rule modifications (morale adjustments), along with changes to AI aggression. The AI is no smarter at 'very hard' than it is at 'very easy'. I've never played the other games as I'm a strategy gamer, not an action gamer.

One thing you - and others - don't seem to understand is that Football Manager isn't just a game, it's a simulation. A good simulation will [I]never[/I] have difficulty levels, particularly where you are competing against other entities in the simulation, in this case, clubs.

I might add, the biggest issue with "fixing" the AI clubs by giving them bonus resources (and maybe other advantages, such as a percentage attribute boosts) - which is what you guys are asking for by asking for difficulty levels, as that is the only way that difficulty levels ever work in practice - is that it papers over other issues in the game, such as exploits and AI poor decision making. Those latter issues are what should be fixed, as much as possible, and then the difficulty issue looks after itself.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree AI decision making is the main issue, but if SI don't want to make the game too hard by fixing this so that newbies can be comfortable, too, then having different difficulty setting is the only way around it in my opinion. But if the AI is simply not good enough (which I think is the problem), then that is where SI should start working from in fixing the problem - adding difficulty level would be their decision in regards to making the game as easy as it is now for newbies, but ... with the current standard of AI, the game is unplayable for me and plenty of other fans (I have 120 hours on the current version and I am already sick of it).

Paul, I am uploading the file called Darmstadt.fm (Darmstadt_TooEasy.fm is corrupt, please delete it) ... I will go on just to test how it goes in Second Division. If the game continues to do crazy stuff like my Season 1, I will upload some more later.

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[quote name='Gundo']My first two saves on FM12 have resulted in me being sacked both times, I'm finding it quite difficult so far.:o[/QUOTE]

I'll join that club. I haven't been sacked but that's because I've joined clubs when they're already in the mire and the previous manager has gotten the boot. I've had two relegations though. I just can't get any form.

I sympathise with the people that are saying the game is tooe asy though. I have stated this for both FM10 and FM11, where I found myself on lengthy runs without putting any effort in. I was expecting the same to be true for FM12 but it hasn't so far come to pass. I will say that I found the difficulty dropped most in the second season in past experience, so perhaps I'lls ee some lengthy runs in my second season as Kettering manager, especially now I find myself in either the Blue Square North or the South.

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[quote name='alexyfoot']I have 120 hours on the current version and I am already sick of it[/QUOTE]

damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off :rolleyes:

So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up

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[quote name='DuddBudda']damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off :rolleyes:

So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up[/QUOTE]

Well if I wanted to do that, I'd not be writing here...I want to enjoy FM, that is why I am hoping they bother to work on the AI more than they work on say, media interaction. Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy with most recent game improvements, but SI have completely forgotten AI improvements, which is by far the most important thing for a simulation game.

It seems everyone around here thinks SI simply can't improve the AI. I really struggle to believe that - I am sure if they put effort in it, the AI can be improved significantly.

In regards to your suggestion - I play Cities XL, too, it is far more challenging simulation for example so it compensates for FM when I play both on the same day :)

If I actually enjoyed these 120 hrs, I wouldn't feel ripped off...trouble is 50% of that was frustration you know...

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[quote name='anagain']
I sympathise with the people that are saying the game is tooe asy though. I have stated this for both FM10 and FM11, where I found myself on lengthy runs without putting any effort in. I was expecting the same to be true for FM12 but it hasn't so far come to pass. I will say that I found the difficulty dropped most in the second season in past experience, so perhaps I'lls ee some lengthy runs in my second season as Kettering manager, especially now I find myself in either the Blue Square North or the South.[/QUOTE]

I think it takes me a season or two to actually get the kind of players who suit what I'm trying to do tactically and strategically. Once that happens, I will usually overachieve, albeit in a modest fashion. The AI on the other hand can really screw itself up. In my current save in Norway, I had a rival club with money (something that I don't have...yet) go after my star striker and my chairman made the decision to sell on my behalf, something I wasn't happy about but understood in the circumstances. But ten games in to the season, they were bottom of the table, and the striker hadn't got a game. Turns out he was a key player on great money - and not registered for the squad, presumably because they couldn't do so due to restrictions. How prevalent this is, I'm not really sure, but it's something that they really need to fix. I'm not entirely sure whether it's an issue with Norwegian leagues or a more general one, though.

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[quote name='DuddBudda']damn, at less than half a penny per minute of play you've really been ripped off :rolleyes:

So yeah, ofc you find FM easy - you play it too much
I had this game 'War on Terror' at uni and won every game, because I was the only guy who played it regularily - I'd take it to different groups once a month, so by the end of the year I'd played it 20 times and the most anyone else had played it was thrice - guess what, I found it boring after that because I always won and noone else knew what they were doing

My advice? Buy SotS ][ and Gal Civ II and don't come back to FM for five years so that the game you find is nothing like the game you know, otherwise you're never gonna find it challenging again - because you are a human being with an incredible brain designed to adapt and respond and out-wit it's environment and there's no way SI or anyone can move things faster than you can keep up[/QUOTE]

What you say does make sense, of course, but I don't think that any realisation that the game is proving too easy comes at 120 hours. It's more that it's by that stage that it's got old. Like I've said in two posts now (that have incidentally been glossed over - whether that's because they say the game isn't easy or not is anyones guess - devil's advocate there) I'm not finding the game easy this time out. I'm finding it damn hard. I did find it easy in the last two editions of FM though. I played about 400 hours (I leave the game running while I'm doing things a lot so that's not a true figure) in each and by that time I'd had enough of not having to put any effort in. Of course there were moments before that where I wanted to enjoy the game so I carried on.

Maybe, some might say, I just cracked that winning formula, but I don't think I did anything special.

I suppose I'm not overly qualified to put forth my view in this thread because I'm not suffering the same problems, but I can sympathise with people's predicament.

SI are taking it seriously, as best as they can, so I also think there is a place for people that may doubt the autheticity of claims to sit back and say 'okay explain yourself', and accept that rather than argue.

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There is one other thing I wanted to add before I disappear. I think games in general have gotten easier, and not just FM. One of the more common arguments is that we are just better than computers and we can analyse and improve more readily than they can. I'm sure we also have much more ability to recall what works particularly well with a given situation, where as a computer will work within a set of guidelines, or code, to make its choices. That means we will step outside guidelines that the computer can not.

People say that SI should just improve AI, but it's often not as simple as that. If AI was vastly improvable then there'd be a lot more games out there that are hard to crack.

I get some lengthy enjoyment from games such as Europa Universalis 2 and Tropico 4, and at times I struggle to get going, but there always comes a point when I'm finding I'm not really stretched.

They do say practice makes perfect.

I'm not a Computer Sciences graduate, or anything like it, by the way. But I do play a lot of games. Too many, some might say.

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This is going to be skewed towards the game being too easy as the average user here is not the average buyer.

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[quote name='anagain'] I think games in general have gotten easier, and not just FM...

They do say practice makes perfect...

But I do play a lot of games. Too many, some might say.[/QUOTE]

That's the big problem. Human brains are very good at learning, far far better than the most advanced AI. Spend a lot of hours playing a game, or a type of game and you improve a lot. AI stays as it was written.

There's a big article in today's 'Times' magazine about World of Warcraft: probably the game which has been played for what used to be called man hours but should probably be called 'person hours' today than any other. That keeps the player's interest by moving them from area to area: once you've mastered one environment there's no point staying there and you're forced into a different one with different animations to fight and different resources to collect. But essentially you're still doing the same thing whether you're level one or eighty: killing things by pressing the F keys in the right order and by the time you reach a basic level of competence you'll have the hotkeys set up for how you play.

I suppose the reason WoW manages to retain players for so long is the collaborative aspect. I think any single player game has a finite amount of hours before it's exhausted.

The relevance of that to FM is I don't think it's realistic to expect to play Chelsea for hundreds of hours and still find it difficult. You reach a point where as a human player where you say either, "I've finished" or you make life more difficult for yourself and instead of Chelsea pick Kidderminster Harriers and try to make them champions of Europe . And once you've made Kidderminster Harriers Champion's League winners it really is time to find another hobby.

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Selling players is still frustrating. Trying to get rid of Carroll in Liverpool, he costs 35mill, but even when I lower it to 5mill only small clubs respond saying they cant afford his wages. Seriously this isnt even realistic at best.

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I've sold many in-form players or "actually good" players for quite a lot of money, many times. Carrol is just overrated, and clubs thankfully understand that he is overrated. Looking at his performances after he left Newcastle, I wouldn't pay more than 5 million and of course no big club will want him after he failed misearbly at Liverpool (the level of failure is in correlation with the amount of money paid imho). And he just isn't goodd or consistent enough for big teams. He is earning pretty high right now and of course he will want to maintain that amount of wages at the very least, if he shall sign for a smaller club so I think the game is totally realistic about selling players. You probably aren't even playing him or he's just playing with an average rating of 7 or sth..

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I agree with some posters. I think we are adapting and learning the game far faster than the AI can. Our brain is truly incredible. We have played FM for almost a decade, and we know the game inside out. So we can't blame the AI though i'm sure SI will continue improving it, as with all other games' AI developers. But no way can a AI ever defeat a human brain. Especially when we've been playing the game for more than 10 over years, with little improvements to the AI.

So enjoy the game by self-imposing restrictions.

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I dont think comparing whatever dislike you have for the player or the team in the real league should impact what happens in the game. There have been many many players over the years who other teams have bought from clubs who didnt do well, and they definitely cost more then 5million. You dont need the big teams to buy the players. There are plenty more who would happily go for someone of Carrols style of player as they have in the past, West Ham, Wigan, etc. In my game noone is even humouring the idea of it, so his wages arent coming into the conversation. I'm also trying to sell him in July. He hasnt played a game for me at all, so his performance level is also not in the discussion.

Fact is there is zero reason why I shouldnt be able to sell him for 5million. None.

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[quote name='Vlahka']I dont think comparing whatever dislike you have for the player or the team in the real league should impact what happens in the game. There have been many many players over the years who other teams have bought from clubs who didnt do well, and they definitely cost more then 5million. You dont need the big teams to buy the players. There are plenty more who would happily go for someone of Carrols style of player as they have in the past, West Ham, Wigan, etc. In my game noone is even humouring the idea of it, so his wages arent coming into the conversation. I'm also trying to sell him in July. He hasnt played a game for me at all, so his performance level is also not in the discussion.

Fact is there is zero reason why I shouldnt be able to sell him for 5million. None.[/QUOTE]

Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.

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[quote name='alexyfoot']Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.[/QUOTE]

This is true! People complain that is hard to self players, but you analyse what player you're trying to sell! And the wage its very important.
For example, you see AI teams that cant sell players. For example, Man City and Chelsea have lots of players in the reserve team (in my save game) that they cant sell because they have such a huge wage.
It's normal... and very real

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[quote name='alexyfoot']Mate, I had Diego at Wolfsburg with 100k/week salaray. Tried to sell him for 0 and couldn't - nobody wants overpaid rubbish players. What you don't understand is that someone not only has to buy the player, but also pay his wages. If he is on a wage higher than his ability, you won't be able to sell him. It is the same in real life, happens all the time.[/QUOTE]

Thats the thing, he's only on 70k, a young english player, did good previous season, plenty of teams should be wanting him for 5million. If it was his wages that was the problem then I'd be getting that feedback. All I'm seeing is asking price is too high, nothing else. And why cant teams bid for players and offer lower wages? I see that happening often with other players I want to get rid of. Deal falls through because player doesnt want to accept lower wages. Some players do accept a pay cut. But again, logically if Carrol was being offered to teams last season for $5mill, I'm pretty sure a few would of snapped him up. At the very least newcastle would be coming in for him like Tottenham did when they sold Keane to Liverpool for 18mill or whatever, then bought him back the following year at a cut price.

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Could AI Match Preperation be the cause of easy games in FM12?

Here's a screenshot of Man Utd's match prepartion screen on FMRTE after 38 league games on FM12 (Man Utd are an AI club).


[img]http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2116/manutdj.jpg[/img]


[SIZE=3][B]Look how terrible their tactical familiarity is on their primary formation. Look how hardly any familiarity has been trained in their secondary and tertiary tactics!

Now compare this to Man Utd after a 38 league game season on [SIZE=4]FM11[/SIZE] I just ran...[/SIZE][/b]


[img]http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9749/manutd2.jpg[/img]


:eek:

On the FM11 game all three tactics have been trained to the standard you would expect them to be after 38 games!


I checked other teams using FMRTE on FM12 too. After the first season some have fully trained their primary tactic as expected, but have no training on their secondary and tertiary tactics. Most AI teams are as bad as Man Utd's primary tactic!

On FM11 [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]THIS IS NOT THE CASE.[/COLOR][/B] Most AI teams are fully trained on ALL three tactics by the 38 game mark.

Unless FMRTE for FM12 has a bugged Tactical screen and is displaying false data, could this be the cause of the easy games some people are having in FM12?

I've just watched the last match of a 46 game season against an AI team whose tactical training is very poor compared to my maxed out ones, infact they only had 1 tactic trained at all - no backups. They were 1-10 favorites on to beat me! They played garbage, they didn't have a clue. I won 4-1 at their place without breaking sweat. I took a look at thier tactical attributes after the match on FMRTE and saw they were pathetic compared to my fully trained tactics.

[img]http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6103/bishopw.jpg[/img]




Is this why they were a push over, like 90% of the other AI teams I've played in six or seven FM12 saves I've tried so far?


[COLOR="#FF0000"][SIZE=5]Please look at this SI and comment, thanks.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

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Spotters badge for that one Erimus! If that is correct that's one huge mess this game is in

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Seems easier than the previous versions to me. Started with Gladbach, am 2nd in January with one defeat, best defense in the league and I've only signed a few backups. I'm hooked since 08, can't say I've been exceptional with crap teams before (not too shabby either), so a 12-3-0 league start in this save really is out of the ordinary

For what it's worth - I put a moderate amount of time into setting up tactics.

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[quote name='Pipo2525']Spotters badge for that one Erimus! If that is correct that's one huge mess this game is in[/QUOTE]

If it is THE problem, I'm going to kick myself since its something I should have checked 2 weeks ago before messing about with editing TA's and Morale. The (possible) answer was right there in my face all along when watching matches, I couldn't understand why AI teams were so poor against me on the pitch. This [I]could[/I] explain it *facepalm*

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Here's Barcelona, the best AI team in the whole game.

[img]http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6192/barcakd.jpg[/img]


Just about fully trained their primary tactic by the end of season 1, but haven't even bothered with tactic #2 or #3 by the looks of it. I wonder how poor tactically they were at the beginning of the season, or even the half way point.

No wonder people are knocking them out of the CL with teams like Napoli and Rangers.

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