FM2012 difficulty.

[digsy11]

Thought I would add my bit to this thread, I've not read every page so forgive me if I repeat things.

I'm currently in my 4th season with Man United and I've experienced two sides to this coin. In my first season the only game I lost ALL season was the FA cup final to Chelsea, winning European cup & Carling cup at a canter going unbeaten for 59 games untill playing Chelseas in the final. I didn't change tactics or do press conferences just team talks & shouts. Btw I started off with Sunday league experience.

Second season I finished 3rd in the league losing 6games, won the FA cup & lost in the final of the Champions League.

Third season I done the treble, easily winning the league & regulary thrashing teams 4 & 5 nil.

Obviously things are not right an hopefully the next update will balance things out a bit.

[KUBI]

So no, it's not realistic now, but I think not using player search is more unrealistic than using it - because scouts do "search a database" for players and we can make roughly accurate representations of players and translate those into numerical values.

I agree with that. If you want to make your game harder, it's an option not to use player search at all. But it does not add realism, it's the contrary, it's a unrealistic manager behaviour, as a good manager will use any kind of information he can get.

[Fede_Gu]

Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provide him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.

[KUBI]

Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provides him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.

I always use "exclude unrealistic targets". In my own save there are just about 700 realistic transfer targets, which looks okay for me.

[egesagin]

Yes, and that gives you ALL the players. Filter it with their abilities and remove unworthy players and you'll have a shortlist of 200-300 players which is quite realistic imo

Not realistic enough? filter it for high potential players under 21 and it'll give you 20-30 players probably and that, I think, is realistic for many clubs. Even too little for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd

[ReggaeBwoy]

Managers in the Bayern thread have claimed that they feel this game is too easy compared to last years one, need to see for myself now

[cantopsych]

People who are fine with the game as it is don't get the point of football and FM likewise. Nothing is "for sure" in football and it shouldn't be in FM. While reading different FM forums I noticed that the most common saying of ones who advocate and defend the game is "well what do you expect if you take Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca...Take WBA or Nancy or whatever". That argument (if you can call it that) is extremly dumb, and nobody should tell nobody which team to take. Hell, I don't wanna take Lecce, I don't like the team. I support Napoli and I want to play the challenge that suits Napoli- first few seasons fight for CL, then maybe win a title, but I don't want nothing to be guaranteed as nothing is guaranteed in real life football, no matter how much money you have, no matter how good your side is. In the past I think FM got that. You wouldn't be guaranteed the title even if you had the best players with the shiniest atributes, all 19s and 20' didn't matter because anything could happen, and there are zillion factors that decide who is going to be a champion.

Everybody wants to win, but there is no point in winning if you don't earn it, if you just click continue and win. I'm not happy, because I feel my input in this game, me changing the tactics and buying the players means nothing!

And to make things worse, it's not the case that you can't play farely with big clubs, it's the case with all of them as Barnett screenshots showed...

well said- I agree.

I think it is the feeling of pretty much whatever you do, you'll ending up 'winning' anyway that bothers me i.e. how much do we influence/have an impact on the game? I could be wrong, but I'm sure FM used to be tougher, sure even frustrating, but that for me was the point- it was the challenge, mixed with excitement that you might just win something (or even close) that has kept me returning. Going by this poll, that is around one third of people who clealry feels the same as us.

[x42bn6]

Probably you're right and probably every manager in the world has a pool of scouts who can provide him a list of 10,000+ (let's say 20,000+) player names with full data in about a second.

Damn, I'm very unlucky to working in my country, where professional sports organizations are so dumb.

"Time" in-game doesn't mean "time" in reality, though. A second in Football Manager land can mean anything in reality.

The reality is that this sort of list will take days to produce and perhaps that is another flaw of the Player Search. On the other hand, that's just convenience and the game doesn't understand what goes on behind the scenes in reality - i.e. scouts will likely be proactive and have done most of the work already, so they will just be putting the finishing touches on scouting reports depending on what the manager wants.

[nottmlad69]

Only thing I'm finding difficult is getting my players to bloody mark their man and bloody stick with him grrrr

I could put my chair through the screen when I see them letting players just run by them lol

[Fede_Gu]

Yes, and that gives you ALL the players. Filter it with their abilities and remove unworthy players and you'll have a shortlist of 200-300 players which is quite realistic imo

Not realistic enough? filter it for high potential players under 21 and it'll give you 20-30 players probably and that, I think, is realistic for many clubs. Even too little for the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd

???

Probably we're not on the same page.

What does it means?

For sure if you use the filters you have realistic results but in order to use the filters you must have the base knowledge! (20,000+ players)

We're saying the same thing: current scouting system is not perfect (for me it's quite not realistic).

I think that a third level italian team can't have in 'Player Search' all players from Italy, as it is in game, because it's not realistic.

For me using 'Player Search' at low level (League One in England, Prima Division in Italy, 3. Liga in Germany and so on) with this scouting system can help your life too much.

At higher level it's different but, one more time, it's absolutely not real that if I manage Man City and I have a scout with good Italy knowledge I can see a third level italian player with full data.

What I'm saying is that if you have a good scouting network in game you can't fail. In real life you can.

Anyway it is the best thread in FM history, no flames and propositive approach. It's disappointing no one from SI is here.

(My refusal to use 'Player Search' is related to my use of bars instead of numbers for players attributes!)

[egesagin]

Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part

[Fede_Gu]

Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part

Bingo! That is the point!

[KUBI]

Maybe it's all about how scouts can unveil attributes? I think it would be more realistic to hide all mental stats, as you need to scout a unknown player for a long period to know his mentality, while other attributes are more obvious.

[KUBI]

Well yes, the scouting knowledge system is totally unrealistic. I think the default player search screen should give you the most famous players in that nation, since you'll of course know many players from your nation. But for the hidden gems and foreigners, your list should fill as your scout finds players. So you shouldn't have ALL the players from a nation, even if your scouting knowledge is full. I agree with you on that part

Even with full knowledge player search does not list all players from a nation.

[egesagin]

Well they sure list an unrealistic amount of players..

[KUBI]

Probably, but the game gives you the filters. I don't see why we should not use it, as it makes the game experience more realistic.

[Guest avine]

Thought I would add my bit to this thread, I've not read every page so forgive me if I repeat things.

I'm currently in my 4th season with Man United and I've experienced two sides to this coin. In my first season the only game I lost ALL season was the FA cup final to Chelsea, winning European cup & Carling cup at a canter going unbeaten for 59 games untill playing Chelseas in the final. I didn't change tactics or do press conferences just team talks & shouts. Btw I started off with Sunday league experience.

Second season I finished 3rd in the league losing 6games, won the FA cup & lost in the final of the Champions League.

Third season I done the treble, easily winning the league & regulary thrashing teams 4 & 5 nil.

Obviously things are not right an hopefully the next update will balance things out a bit.

You should consider that you succeeded on FM2012, and there for you can call it easy,when you win the title 1st season against al odds, just like Blackburn once did in real life.

or winning trebles with top clubs year after year

though the fact that you didn't change tactics is an issue unless you used save/load or vacances

[Matej]

1000+ votes thats good number. we can see that its just not couple of us who think game is not balanced. its 35 % of people who think the same, Many great posts in this thread and few others. it was interesting to read debate about scouting. Good stuff.

What i really dont understand is why we dont get feedback from SI on this thread. I noticed just few short comments of PaulC and thats it. I mean i hear all the time that SI have many employees, etc. Where are they and why they dont give their view on lots of problems game obv. have. We are here to help and we are working for free. Generally i dont see comments from SI squad or moderators Ackter, Sciag... Pretty weird for thread of 700+ comments and 15k+ views.

I also read other good threads, but they are not there either. Its not nice, really isnt. Because they have much more info then we have and they in the end made this game.

P.s. AcidBurn and Kriss are good moderators they talk with us. I must mention that.

[Coentrao]

I think that financially it's somewhat harder on the lower leagues specially if you play with LLM'esque rules, the AI teams just keep having large budgets regardless of getting drown in debt and even promoted teams got a larger wage budget than myself, there also seems to exist a reputation bug where your reputation keeps dropping unless you achieve promotion.

And i'm actually thinking of starting using player search again because of the scouting glitch i have to rely mostly on transfer rumours which i don't find it enough and tedious.

[PaulC]

I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

[phnompenhandy]

I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

That's great Paul. Do you think I'm on the right lines here:

If the fix simply makes high morale less easy to achieve and less long-lasting, I don't think that will be a huge improvement to team-talks because 'assertive/option #2 will still be the 'right' choice globally whatever the manager's reputation. For the team-talks to be more effective, they need to be more geared to different personality types so that there is more variety or responses; not in an arbitrary way but in ways that if the manager pays attention, can work out the right thing to say to each player in a given situation.

[egesagin]

Paul, could you possibly tell us why SI doesn't share their opinions on our ideas about the scouting system or implementation of tactical understanding where a player can't fully understand a complex tactic fully, tehrefore preventing you to dominate with lower class teams? I mean I've seen some really good ideas around here, I've offered some too and all our aim is to make the game more realistic. same as you guys. So I think at least if we got some feedback on that, it would be great. I know you guys have much to do but we all work for the same cause here

[KUBI]

I guess that they are gathering ideas and suggestions from the wishlist thread.

[egesagin]

Well this is a major thread so they should get them, plus there was a suggestions forum in the summer I guess, but they didn't provide feedback. A "we think this might be useful, we'll look into this in the future" would be nice lol and I'm sure people don't even care about the credit too, we just want to make this game better

[themadsheep2001]

Well this is a major thread so they should get them, plus there was a suggestions forum in the summer I guess, but they didn't provide feedback. A "we think this might be useful, we'll look into this in the future" would be nice lol and I'm sure people don't even care about the credit too, we just want to make this game better

Just because they dont comment doesnt mean they arent interested. As this thread has gone on, ive been watching the people who are viewing the thread (shown), and Paul isnt the only the one from SI whose been reading. So they will have picked up on the more interesting posts

[egesagin]

Of course they will, but if they say that they'll look into it, then we can pressure them if they don't look into it, thus making the game better faster

[themadsheep2001]

Of course they will, but if they say that they'll look into it, then we can pressure them if they don't look into it, thus making the game better faster

Lol, they can only go as fast as getting it right, though i know where you are coming from. regardless of the percentages of who thinks what, the fact that people have been debating/showing evidence from all points of view is whats caught their attention, and probably moved it higher up the agenda, so job well done on all accounts. Personally i'm the "its more complicated than morale" camp. BiggusD summed it up exceptionally well. But I also accept its probably not something to happen very quickly, given the complexities

[egesagin]

Yeah I agree with you on that, it'll take time due to most of it being an AI issue and the technology is barely enough for the current level of realism. But I think this game is getting too few features every year and it feels like they aren't trying hard enough. Plus, as far as I know, the team who did the older CM games moved on to doing FM so many good features they had in CM games could be implemented to FM but they didn't. And the fact that we still have only one set piece tactic per set piece is an insult to us, and their game making abilities So the higher the pressure they are under, the more they will add I guess.. At least they should

[Nik Nuk]

Im playing as Liverpool, won in a canter in my first season, second season struggled to fourth, currently second in my thirds season in a close race.

[bleventozturk]

I'm looking at all the saves an pkms I have been sent and where an area of the game can be tweaked without unbalancing things for the majority they will be.

As I stated earlier, I want to reduce shelf life of extremes of morale and see if that helps, as well as make team talks a bit harder the lower the managers' reputation in relation to his players. At this stage I honestly haven't found much more to go on at least in terms of the match engine.

I dont have a timeline for this at present as its vital we test it properly given we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

I don't understand why you don't even consider to reduce the effect of morale on player decision? Just try it once at least...

[Miek]

SI didn't and can't say exactly that. To paraphrase from memory PaulC's spin (a post earlier in this thread?), he'll tweak the effects of morale at the extremes and make sure the effects don't last as long. As with any fix, no news of when until it's out.

Thanks for response!

[grep]

we believe the vast majority of users are very happy with this release.

Thanks for looking into it.

Then, as we all can comment numbers of this poll's only I would hardly define 70% a vast majority.

In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.

[Keyzer Soze]

Thanks for looking into it.

Then, as we all can comment numbers of this poll's only I would hardly define 70% a vast majority.

In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.

Ok, but 1000 voters perhaps dont represent the whole universe of FM players.

We must not forget the thousands of players, that play the game and, happy or not with it, dont come to this forum to talk about it.

[FestyF]

In my personal way of speaking at least 90% is a vast majority. 70% is just a majority in my country.

May be he meant 'vast majority of beginners are very happy with this release'?

[Keyzer Soze]

May be he meant 'vast majority of beginners are very happy with this release'?

Why people continue making difference between beginners and long term players.

Really FestyF... i play CM or FM since 1994. How about you?

It's just stupid when people come to the conclusion that if you are happy with the game you are a beginner, if you think the game its easy then you are a experient player!

[FestyF]

Why people continue making difference between beginners and long term players.

Really FestyF... i play CM or FM since 1994. How about you?

It's just stupid when people come to the conclusion that if you are happy with the game you are a beginner, if you think the game its easy then you are a experient player!

Calm down mate. The wink smilie was there for a reason.

But I do wonder sometimes whether SI developers and testers actually play test the game? Test procedures are all well and good but some issues (specially in a game as big and deep as FM) can't be found until you play test the game over and over and over.

[KUBI]

In a democracy 70% is a vaste majority.

I agree that separating beginners and long term players is just a try to attach importance to a concern. The poll does not say anything specific about the voters.

We have to wait and see what effect adjusting of morale has to the game.

[Keyzer Soze]

I have no doubt that SI developers and testers play the game, and tested! The problem, as i see it, in this case is very subjective. To determine if a game it's easy or not, it all comes down to the player that is playing the game. So you can think the game its easy... others will think the game is harder.

I suppose the same happen in SI HQ. They play the game, and they come to the conclusion that the game presented the same amount of dificulty as the others version.

About your commentary, i know you put there the wink. The problem is that this argument as been stated several times in this thread. And i really think that this is unfair for the newer users. Everybody (beginners and older users) have the right to play and enjoy the game. But some people are almost trying to create a division between beginners and older users. We must not forget that the game is made for everybody, a not for a specific type of player.

[SeanNUFC]

I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.

[milnerpoint]

I have no doubt that SI developers and testers play the game, and tested! The problem, as i see it, in this case is very subjective. To determine if a game it's easy or not, it all comes down to the player that is playing the game. So you can think the game its easy... others will think the game is harder.

I suppose the same happen in SI HQ. They play the game, and they come to the conclusion that the game presented the same amount of dificulty as the others version.

About your commentary, i know you put there the wink. The problem is that this argument as been stated several times in this thread. And i really think that this is unfair for the newer users. Everybody (beginners and older users) have the right to play and enjoy the game. But some people are almost trying to create a division between beginners and older users. We must not forget that the game is made for everybody, a not for a specific type of player.

Outwith Biggus, that is the best post in this thread, thankfully there are still some sensible people left on here. There should be no divide between new and long term players, what there should be is a game that is accessible to all users, at the moment it seems a select few are having an issue, Paul has said he will look at a few things that will hopefully appease this group whilst keeping the vast majority of users happy, we cannot ask for anymore really.

To suggest SI dont play or test FM suggests you dont know anything about SI to be honest.

[SeanNUFC]

Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.

[Keyzer Soze]

Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.

SeanNUFC, i suggest you go and read the last posts in this thread. It wasn't milnerpoint who try to create a divide. quite the opposite.

[milnerpoint]

Milnerpoint, all you seem to be doing is trying to create a divide between posters in this thread. Every time. Its got nothing to do with new/long term players.

I havent tried to create any divide, especially not in this thread, i have infact tried to show that SI need to make this game accessible to every single user, not just one group of users and i definitely have no interest in creating divides between posters, i dont know any of you guys on a personal level so it makes no difference to me who gets along or not. Please read what i am saying, i think you will find your post is a bit out of order.

[Erimus1876]

I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.

I went back to FM11 last week for a while after I lost patience with '12. And even the difference between 11 and 12 is unreal imho. I don't know why, and I accept SI's statements about nothing fundamental has changed between the two that could cause the easiness difference. They said the ME is practically identical. Thats fine. They said teamtalks have no significant impact. I can accept that. As far as I know default tactics have remained the same? (I used default tactics and shouts in both 11 and 12, and like I said the challenge is like chalk and cheese so no one can say I've "learned how to beat the ME in this game thanks to my time playing FM11").

So I don't envy SI's task at pinpointing the problem. I said earlier I doubt this fix will actually fix anything, or at least it won't make any perceivable difference - its too much of a risk making changes to the game this year when most people are happy with its current state. But I really hope they make this issue a priority for next years game. This is my opinion so people reading it understand that before you bite my head off lol, but the FM payerbase on the whole has moved on to the next level of challenge, intelligence, experience (whatever you want to call it), but FM's AI has stagnated and is probably a few years behind that curve now. Its like all games, they have to evolve with the players that play them. I have no doubt the AI is improved every year, but I also feel it still plays 2nd priority to shiny new features that can be hyped and sold to the masses. If thats true, that policy has to change for at least 1 year for the game AI to "catch up" imho.

Next year I really hope SI release FM Editor 2.0. An editor that gives us much more than just being able to change names and stats (stats that never last anyway since however 'hard' you make your starting DB, it'll be all unravelled within 5-10 seasons anyway). We need a much more powerful editor that can really get at the core of some of the things that govern crucial aspects relating to game longevity and its challenge. I'll post my ideas in the wishlist thread and hope someone from SI notices it. Wether its doable for next year I don't know, but it could be the direction needed to solve the easiness problem and at the same time save SI time figuring out how to please everyone.

[FestyF]

I've gone back to fm10 and the difference is unreal. I appreciate it so much more thanks to fm12's easyness now.

Same here. I've gone back to FM 11.3 and it's giving me a decent challenge atm. Also, this year's FM has taught me and hopefully many other customers to first check the reviews from like minded gamers before buying the game.

[Erimus1876]

Same here. I've gone back to FM 11.3 and it's giving me a decent challenge atm. Also, this year's FM has taught me and hopefully many other customers to first check the reviews from like minded gamers before buying the game.

Or listen to your intuition before clicking the "purchase FMxx" button on Steam. Mine was nagging me all day on oct 21st to wait for at least 12.1. I shoulda listend to the higher self

[SeanNUFC]

I usually wait to buy fm, steam just made it so much easier....damn you steam...*goes to make anti-steam thread*....

[Matej]

Why i have feeling PaulC is working alone in fixing the problem? Erimus, please put your, mine and other good ideas in wishlist. Im little tired and empty. I dont have good feeling at all. SI thinks that problem is just in "moral" thing. Like they didnt read problems with scouting, AI of computer managers. Old match engine needs new 1... etc. Maybe FM 2013 is the answer.

P.s. yes, you learn on your mistakes. Next year wait for me to write review here, then decide about buying FM13. Hahaha.

[grep]

Why i have feeling PaulC is working alone in fixing the problem? Erimus, please put your, mine and others good ideas in wishlist. Im little tired and empty. I dont have good feeling at all. SI thinks that problem is just in "moral" thing. Like they didnt read problems with scouting, AI of computer managers. Old match engine needs new 1... etc. Maybe FM 2013 is the answer.

P.s. yes, you learn on your mistakes. Next year wait for me to write review here, then decide about buying FM13. Hahaha.

That is not a feeling, that is the truth.

Maybe Paul C is not alone and he is discussing the matter with others SIs but they will tweak only the morale in a light way.

This of course will lead to the very same situation of today and we are warning them since now like we did in the early days of the demo.

We have been totally ignored BTW and I also fear the tweaks will be so minimal that we will all ( 30% ) have to quit not only FM12 but the whole future series as well.

[Fede_Gu]

Luckily in about 12 hours I can play Skyrim, obviously only because I have time waiting a tweak for FM 12 to start my realistic career of the year.