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S.I Has A.I Improved?, for long term seasons

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SI never talk about AI for FM 2012.

But I predict IA improvements will be one of the major points of FM2013 marketing strategy, i can't imagine otherwise.

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But I predict IA improvements will be one of the major points of FM2013 marketing strategy, i can't imagine otherwise.

Quite a bold statement there, are you privie to such info? If not why would you guess such a thing? :D

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Everyone knows AI is always being improved. It's like saying they've included the offside rule, well deuh.

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Probably not.

Based on what do you know that? I really respect you as you are a good poster, but sometimes you just talk rubbish TBH. You could at least wait and see for yourself and then make a judgment.

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Based on what do you know that? I really respect you as you are a good poster, but sometimes you just talk rubbish TBH. You could at least wait and see for yourself and then make a judgment.

Just my opinion based on the fact that it hasn't improved in the last 5 years. Long term career games always seem back of the queue when it comes to attention.

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If the A.I was improved to allow for better long term saves then S.I probably wouldn't sell as many copies of the game each year so my guess would be it wont be improved.

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If the A.I was improved to allow for better long term saves then S.I probably wouldn't sell as many copies of the game each year so my guess would be it wont be improved.

Are you seriously suggesting they are holding back on purpose?

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I'm thinking they would rather sell copies every year than make a perfect game, but that's just my opinion.

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Just my opinion based on the fact that it hasn't improved in the last 5 years. Long term career games always seem back of the queue when it comes to attention.

Fair enough, but I'd still wait and see before I make any judgments. FWIW I think it's improved over the past 5 years. Most notable addition/feature being DLR.

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Are you seriously suggesting they are holding back on purpose?

Let's just say a good portion of the customers don't really care much about long-term career...

All the real-life FM'ers I've known play with their favourite club for a couple of seasons until they get frustrated/bored with it... I'm quite sure a solid majority of the FM'ers don't play past the 10 seasons mark, which is already a rather long time to stick with a game and with a save.

Sure, we're all long-term players in here, but we're mostly die-hard fans who enjoy the game in a different way and at a different level than the "generic user".

So I'm not implying SI don't improve AI's squad-building/managemet skills on purpose, but I do think it's not a top priority for them.

As long as the AI can provide a solid challenge until the original players are all gone (it takes a solid 15 years to get a mostly-newgen gameworld) there's no need to go out of their way to improve a part of the game only the die-hard fans will find out about... And by the time even the most dedicated FM'er has reached that point, the next chapter of the franchise is going to be released...

Let's assume a dedicated player completes one season every 10 days, it's 3 seasons per month, thus he'll play in Newgen World after approx 4 months...

Considering most "serious" careers are started on the latest xx.3 patch, released in spring, our FM'er will likely enjoy the competitive long-term AI for just a couple of seasons, around the end of the summer, a month away from the launch of FM201x.

Is it really worth it?

P.S. granted, I've been reporting stupid AI transfers for years and litte has changed... the problem is not limited to newgens or to year 2020 onwards...

AI has sucked for years at buying-selling-developing players, and it was plain to see from the very first transfer window... The long-term suckitude is just an exacerbated outcome of a pre-existing problem.

It's just you notice it less when the AI "misuses" Lukaku or Wilshere (aka well-rounded original youngsters it's pretty much impossible to drop the ball with)... but when the newgens have horrid flaws, AI's incompetence shines brighter than the sun.

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DLR hasn't really stopped whoever the Liverpool manager is from having a 42 year old Steven Gerrard captaining the side in 2020 with an average squad age of 35 having sold all their promising youth players on the cheap. :D

I just don't have any faith that it'll be addressed, which is why I put "probably". There also hasn't been any specific mention of it being looked at or improved 9unless I've missed it) that makes me believe it will drastically change for the better.

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Let's just say a good portion of the customers don't really care much about long-term career...

All the real-life FM'ers I've known play with their favourite club for a couple of seasons until they get frustrated/bored with it... I'm quite sure a solid majority of the FM'ers don't play past the 10 seasons mark, which is already a rather long time to stick with a game and with a save.

I'm not doing so either, because the way I'm playing the game it is pretty time-consuming. According to the clock, my "longterm" save of five seasons so far has kept me glued to the screen for more than 8 days, which is 8 days spent in front of the computer, as I don't let FM or my computer just run in the background whilst doing something else. Yet as much as I like FM it irks me that it is comparably easy to find and lure top talent to your freshly promoted second division club that only half a season later is being noticed by half of Europe, or why AI clubs often DO notice the talent out there, but don't make a bid proper.

Part of it is my fault, not only the AI's of course: In my next save, I won't use the overpowered tool that is the in-game player search at all. With player search, all you have to do is to set up simple filters like "List all players aged 19 max" and sort the results by their market value, get three dozen scouting reports done in a week in-game time by shift-clicking twice on your list of almost guaranteed talent inside somewhere, sit back, pick and make your bid. I genuinely think that players that find the game too hard just haven't found out how to do this proper - which isn't exactly rocket science and the effects are being felt right when you start the game, not ten seasons in.

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When it comes to long game saves once you win the league and the champions league, for me its the end of the game. Like the game is completed.

Were I would like to see the AI improve is your main rivals go out and spend big and really go out and make it so much harder for you to retain your title. In away the difficulty setting

moved up.

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When it comes to long game saves once you win the league and the champions league, for me its the end of the game. Like the game is completed.

Were I would like to see the AI improve is your main rivals go out and spend big and really go out and make it so much harder for you to retain your title. In away the difficulty setting

moved up.

This is true for me as well, but I like developing youngsters and re-building a team better than having to do the ridiculous chores that needs to be done whenever you take over a new club. So I stick with the game even though I am very likely to win everything most seasons precisely because I know that any challenge is temporary; it is only a matter of time before I dominate the top division and win CL with *insert team name here*. The difficulty should be such that this is impossible. I mean, what I want is not that it should be impossible to take an amateur side to the top, but it should be impossible to have any kind if inevitability connected to such gaming goals!

It shouldn't be possible to "just hang on in there" long enough and then win everything. After having developed a (set of) tactics that makes a discernible difference compared to the default ones, figured out the difference between a possible wonderkid and a youngster with high potential, learned how to beat the AI (and the agents) in contract negotiation, beaten the morale/motivation minigame, understood training, scouting and... well... generally peaked the learning curve of the game (which should take roughly 10 seasons of FM) - then you'll realize that none of the world-class rl managers represented in the game are particularly good at any of this!

No human manager should be instantly better than Arsene Wenger at developing youngsters and selling them for a profit in their peak years, once he/she has learned the trick of giving them a proper amount of chances in the first team with low-pressure team talks. No human manager should become better than Sir Alex Ferguson at motivating his players once he has figured out how the squad reacts to pressure. No human manager should become better than Mourinho at changing the course of the game by adjusting tactical instructions according to the situation.

Yet, those three aren't good at any of that. There is no discernible difference between them and Generique Noboudy, the manager of Olympique Merde in French non-league.

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Probably not.

There has been no news, no announcements and its made only very gradual progress for years so I tend to agree.

SI never talk about AI for FM 2012.

But I predict IA improvements will be one of the major points of FM2013 marketing strategy, i can't imagine otherwise.

Your optimistic. With only a fraction of the players getting far enough in to see the combination of poor AI and floored newgens bring the difficulty level crashing down it doesn't look like it will be a major selling point.

The best thing that could happen is one of the influential game reviewers taking the time to holiday ten years into the future before starting their review. The pressures of time mean that reviews are always rushed out to meat deadlines and reviewers have probably played a couple of seasons at most so poor long term AI is never commented on.

Everyone knows AI is always being improved. It's like saying they've included the offside rule, well deuh.

They may have improved the AI year on year but its always been small incremental changes. The whole thing could do with a re-write and a fresh start the way the ME has been completely re-written from time to time.

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The ME is not completely re-written from time to time, it was done once.

People need to accept there is nothing they can do to get the AI to match a human thinker, show me one complex game out there where the AI can rival a human for decision making. Then remember that for each team there is a group of AI characters working, to even think that the thousands of active managers could all think to the level we want them to is completely unrealistic. They will improve the AI as best as possible, this whole "most people only play for 1-2 seasons" is nonsense, SI dev's play long terms games they will know more about the short comings than all of us and will definitely be doing what they can to ensure the game stays a challenge as the seasons progress. As Divineone says its a silly question, much like "have they improved the ME", of course they have those things are a given!!

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If the A.I was improved to allow for better long term saves then S.I probably wouldn't sell as many copies of the game each year so my guess would be it wont be improved.

Again with the conspiracy theories.:thdn:

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The ME is not completely re-written from time to time, it was done once.

People need to accept there is nothing they can do to get the AI to match a human thinker, show me one complex game out there where the AI can rival a human for decision making. Then remember that for each team there is a group of AI characters working, to even think that the thousands of active managers could all think to the level we want them to is completely unrealistic. They will improve the AI as best as possible, this whole "most people only play for 1-2 seasons" is nonsense, SI dev's play long terms games they will know more about the short comings than all of us and will definitely be doing what they can to ensure the game stays a challenge as the seasons progress. As Divineone says its a silly question, much like "have they improved the ME", of course they have those things are a given!!

Unless they are instructed to do otherwise!

"will definitely be doing what they can" How do you know this?

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Unless they are instructed to do otherwise!

"will definitely be doing what they can" How do you know this?

Are you suggesting that we are told by someone higher up in the foodchain to not do our job properly ?

I think he is referring to the many times we've said on the forums that we are always aiming to make the best game possible without holding back improvements. Yes, sometimes some things need to go through an evolution process over a longer period (multiple releases) rather than a revolution in just one edition, but to suggest that we would make the long term game worse on purpose is just laughable.

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Let's just say a good portion of the customers don't really care much about long-term career...

It depends on what you consider " long-term ".

If you mean over 30 seasons I agree, if you mean below 30 seasons I disagree.

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It depends on what you consider " long-term ".

If you mean over 30 seasons I agree, if you mean below 30 seasons I disagree.

I would bet that the vast majority don't get past 5 seasons.

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I would bet that the vast majority don't get past 5 seasons.

If that was true it would be enough for them playing few times only the demo, they would save money.

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Are you suggesting that we are told by someone higher up in the foodchain to not do our job properly ?

I think he is referring to the many times we've said on the forums that we are always aiming to make the best game possible without holding back improvements. Yes, sometimes some things need to go through an evolution process over a longer period (multiple releases) rather than a revolution in just one edition, but to suggest that we would make the long term game worse on purpose is just laughable.

No, I am suggesting that maybe you are "told by someone higher up in the foodchain" to work on other things.

but to suggest that we would make the long term game worse on purpose is just laughable.

I will assume that this was intended as a response to somebody else's post.

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Quite a bold statement there, are you privie to such info? If not why would you guess such a thing? :D

No, no I hope :D But the AI of FM is so poor... If I am an ambitious developer or producer, I choose certainly to invest my money and my time on the heart of a football game, the AI or the engine. Who buy a game for press conference or agents system ?

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