David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Macs can indeed be upgraded quite easily. It's just a motherboard same as any other computer. You have to research the motherboard and what parts it can handle.

Personally I've repaired, upgraded, and stripped down 100's of Macs over the years.

Same with PCs.

Funny enough, had more issues with Mac hard drives in the past 10 years. Disc Warrior has saved my ass so many times.

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Pity somebody won't make FM work properly with Linux:(

i read a few threads on the steam forum about them getting steam to work with Linux so you never know it might be possible sometime soon!

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Pity somebody won't make FM work properly with Linux:(

It will run on my Amiga thought - right???

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Macs can indeed be upgraded quite easily. It's just a motherboard same as any other computer. You have to research the motherboard and what parts it can handle.

Personally I've repaired, upgraded, and stripped down 100's of Macs over the years.

Same with PCs.

Funny enough, had more issues with Mac hard drives in the past 10 years. Disc Warrior has saved my ass so many times.

Aren't they much more painful to upgrade as opposed to PCs though?

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Nope. Same amount of pain.

Ah, never knew that :). Thanks for letting me know :).

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Yea, but that's the same number of people that saw the ads last year.

Milner was saying that somehow making the game require Steam to activate means that more people will have the opportunity to buy it. Which clearly doesn't make sense.

Also, a reduction in choice is a step backwards, not forwards.

That's been the motto of the 21st century will. Technology improves but businesses use it to limit the consumer, rather than expanding their options*

* Obviously doesn't apply to every single technology advancement, but in regards to consoles, gaming, some mobile phone advancements and so on.

This is a great post, I simply cannot believe that some people actually swallow what is said from the top without looking at a bigger picture here. The general attitude on the pro-side is that other companies are much worse with unilock and what not, just because everyone else is 'jumping off the cliff' then SI/SEGA should do the same. Good products and good marketing that coincides with a good résumé is how you sell products - restrictions do not... (ask anyone with half a marketing brain) :rolleyes:

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And I suppose you prefer overpriced machines that are impossible to upgrade, about three times the price of a PC I can build with those specs, and a company who has employed millions of sheep to purchase their goods.
Pretty sure you can't go out and buy parts for a Mac, so I have to assume it is true... And indeed, Steam, a company that's already beyond rich, paid me to sit here on these forums and seduce people into using Steam. :rolleyes:
Aren't they much more painful to upgrade as opposed to PCs though?
Ah, never knew that :). Thanks for letting me know :).

:rolleyes: If only you'd known that before making your first statement. I don't quite get what this has to do with FM12 activation though!

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Can someone from Sega answer this question for me please,

Will you consider getting rid of the Steam issue for FM2013 if it proves a big issue for sales of FM2012 ?

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"Steamsh*t"? Calling it a virus? Really? Do you understand what Steam is and has done? Steam is the program that has saved PC Gaming. Steam is the program that took hundreds of indie developers under their wing and made some of them millions, such as Frostbyte. Believe it or not, without Steam, you might be playing FM on console as that's where the sales would be. Steam is the #1 digital distribution service in the world, and believe it or not, it's as far from a virus as it can be. I'd love to hear how it's a virus if you can explain such to me, as I've been using it for 7 years and have bought 263 items from it. It's never failed and is probably my favorite little program. So once again, why don't you tell me how this is a "virus" or "sh*t"?

Complete nonsense from start to finish (apart from the "virus" comment). Steam exists because of PC games, if PC games ever only exist due to Steam it will be because Steam out manouvered other retailers in the market place. Do not be dumb enough to confuse agressive sucessful Corporate bully-marketting with quality of product.

Please dont state nonsense as fact in this forum, especially if you have a pro Steam bias (understandable if your experiences are all good, by the way). I agree some seem to hate Steam in here, and some dont justify their vitriol but many, many others have the issue with enforced DRM, not Steam per se - although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.

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Clearly I didn't respond to your specific issues in my post above, so could I ask what your specific issue is with Steam that you think is so bad that it's worth pirating the game over? Perhaps there's a solution that doesn't involve adding to the piracy statistics that lead to even more restrictive anti-piracy techniques. (I'll also point out that Steam is a strong reliable service. When a developer uses a third party program, they're unlikely to find one as reliable as Steam. Something that day-one purchasers of The Witcher 2 discovered when they used a third party system from Namco Bandai (a large games company, not a tiny one, but a company that didn't have a system as robust as Steam) and discovered that they couldn't play the game at all until a patch was released removing this activation. Something that the developers are now in court because Namco are telling them they should not have removed it)

Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!

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:rolleyes: If only you'd known that before making your first statement. I don't quite get what this has to do with FM12 activation though!

Because he brought up how Apple was a better OS than windows if you read a bit back. I still have two other points in there as well.

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1. Please dont state nonsense as fact

2. you have a pro Steam bias

3. although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.

1. Same to be said for you

2. Vice versa for you

3. I'd consider that a PEBKAC issue :p

Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!

And again vice versa. Most that have issues are due to PEBKAC issues :p

(PEBKAC = problem exists between keyboard and chair is intended as a bit of light humour)

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Complete nonsense from start to finish (apart from the "virus" comment). Steam exists because of PC games, if PC games ever only exist due to Steam it will be because Steam out manouvered other retailers in the market place. Do not be dumb enough to confuse agressive sucessful Corporate bully-marketting with quality of product.

Please dont state nonsense as fact in this forum, especially if you have a pro Steam bias (understandable if your experiences are all good, by the way). I agree some seem to hate Steam in here, and some dont justify their vitriol but many, many others have the issue with enforced DRM, not Steam per se - although a few of us have had problems with Steam already after only a few days.

Hardly nonsense. Steam has saved PC gaming. I suggest you read some articles on developers comments about Steam as well as have a look at some graphs that show how PC gaming is growing (mainly because of digital sales.)

http://www.destructoid.com/croteam-pc-gaming-is-better-thanks-to-steam-158329.phtml

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/13/relic-steam-could-save-pc-gaming-from-piracy/

http://theworldaccordingtojay.blogspot.com/2011/07/steam-has-saved-pc-gaming.html

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=25595

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/10/12/the-steamy-issue-of-digital-distribution/

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Nvidia-Game-Sales-Data-640x357.jpg (Mainly thanks to Steam)

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Well, if we all had to wipe our bums with Bambi toilet paper (because they were bullying us into it as there are no other toilet paper options anymore) and on top told all of Asia they can't use water anymore (and they actually listened plus we didn't start thinking of this option ourselves) then hell ya, Bambi sales is going to sky-rocket...

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I'd say Dune is correct here. Prior to cds/dvds, I bought games on floppy disk. And as a naive young man not understanding his actions, I installed the game and returned it to the store for a full refund due to it not being compatible with my system. Shame on me, but I was 9 or 10 or something, I had no clue what my actions were doing.

When Cds/dvds came along when the internet wasn't available, the game came with a booklet, with some sort of code, Jet Set Willy needed a colour combination code that you had to get from the manual. And some had activation codes, like serial numbers that had to be input. It wasn't long before a friend would have a program that would generate a serial number, or some way to hack past that colour coded option in Jet Set Willy.

When the internet came along, crack codes for demo software to make them full appeared on the internet, so now people with demos of games could fully initiate them with a code from online.

Bring on the advent of torrents and things, and you can download cracked versions of games.

This sort of rip off to the industry has been happening for over 30 years.

Steam is there to try and delay it or even stop it in some cases. It provides a wealth of games and community options for people that enjoy online gaming. And now some gaming companies are seeing an advantage in having a system in place to Authenticate purchases of the game.

I honestly don't know why people have so many issues with Steam. It baffles me. I just installed it a few years ago and it always ran, flawlessly I might add. I recently reset my computer. Reloaded Steam and everything was there for me.

I don't really know what else to say. Except, and I've said this before - You have plenty of time to sort out your Steam issues. You have been informed that you need Steam and an Internet Connection to authenticate the game. So you have plenty of time to get this working. Just like the other 35,000,000 users of Steam that have no issues with it. And you also have plenty of time to sort out how to solve Offline Mode issues.

All the support is here for you. Either through these forums, or through Steam forums.

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Steam is not reliable! read the previous 38 pages!

Steam was unreliable for years and I'll attest to that in a second! But it has had time to mature and develop and these days it's very reliable. This is -especially- true compared to alternative solutions. First example that comes to mind is Ubisoft's servers going down and only the pirates being able to play Assassin's Creed 2 for... A week? I can't remember.

Steam has also recently taken a -huge- upgrade in server quality. IF your only experience of Steam is a few years old, you're perfectly justified in thinking it's unreliable (I used it for the first thing that ever used it, Counterstrike 1.6 and believe me, I refused to use Steam for anything until Half Life 2 -required- it even with my boxed copy. I complained, much like people here.) However, over recent years it's gone up in leaps and bounds...

Also, yeah, Steam is responsible for huge leaps and bounds for indie gaming and keeping PC gaming a little bit stronger at a time when PC gaming showed a real damaging hit to sales.

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Well, if we all had to wipe our bums with Bambi toilet paper (because they were bullying us into it as there are no other options anymore) and on top told all of Asia they can't use water anymore (and they actually listened) then hell ya, Bambi sales is going to sky-rocket...

I assume you are talking about FM, in which case, has another option. Don't buy it?

Another interesting article I found.

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14691-steam-sale-saves-indie-developer-from-going-under/

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1. Same to be said for you

2. Vice versa for you

3. I'd consider that a PEBKAC issue :p

And again vice versa. Most that have issues are due to PEBKAC issues :p

(PEBKAC = problem exists between keyboard and chair is intended as a bit of light humour)

1. I never have (never quoted stats to back up my points and often state that opinion in here, including my own, is to be considered totally representative of the norm.)

2. I have issues with enforced DRM, not Steam. But in my experience Steam does not work properly - it is that simple! (and we all remember Uniloc's failings 3 years ago whilst on the subject)

3. Pro Steamers keep telling those of us with Steam problems to do this and do that and upgrade this and download that. None or which is proven 100% succesful. Read back to SI mods posting "oh yeah just do this" then posting a while later "that shouldnt happen, they should fix this". Errr, yes you'd think.

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Sorry if you feel like you're going around in circles, I must've missed those posts. Beats me, then. As long as the credentials are there it's supposed to play ball. Better luck with the new laptop I guess. :/

Thats not very hard now is it when were up to 40 pages...

Loversleaper - i assume you tired the case sensitive solution...ever since i did that i have been playing FM for days with my internet switched off, i even managed to play on my lunch hour in works car park! You really do have my sympathy mate...:(

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Macs are no doubt very good for designing websites and graphics. I just don't know how I, personally, could justify spending that much money for a Mac. If that's what you do for a living, no doubt, Macs are going to be the better option in the long term, but for me, I prefer Windows 7 over any Apple OS.

Saying that Macs are better for graphics and designing than PCs is a relic of a myth that is only extended by those who buy Macs.

There is absolutely no justifiable reason for someone to buy a Mac over a PC other than they just want one. (Which is a good enough reason for me.)

If you spend the same amount of money on a PC that you would on a Mac, you'll get a hell of a lot better machine (especially if you build the computer yourself!).

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Saying that Macs are better for graphics and designing than PCs is a relic of a myth that is only extended by those who buy Macs.

There is absolutely no justifiable reason for someone to buy a Mac over a PC other than they just want one. (Which is a good enough reason for me.)

If you spend the same amount of money on a PC that you would on a Mac, you'll get a hell of a lot better machine (especially if you build the computer yourself!).

Exactly my thinking besides the last little bit of the second sentence :p, except I'm attempting to be a little reasonable here seeing how so many people use Macs on these forums ;).

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I'd say Dune is correct here. Prior to cds/dvds, I bought games on floppy disk. And as a naive young man not understanding his actions, I installed the game and returned it to the store for a full refund due to it not being compatible with my system. Shame on me, but I was 9 or 10 or something, I had no clue what my actions were doing.

When Cds/dvds came along when the internet wasn't available, the game came with a booklet, with some sort of code, Jet Set Willy needed a colour combination code that you had to get from the manual. And some had activation codes, like serial numbers that had to be input. It wasn't long before a friend would have a program that would generate a serial number, or some way to hack past that colour coded option in Jet Set Willy.

When the internet came along, crack codes for demo software to make them full appeared on the internet, so now people with demos of games could fully initiate them with a code from online.

Bring on the advent of torrents and things, and you can download cracked versions of games.

This sort of rip off to the industry has been happening for over 30 years.

Steam is there to try and delay it or even stop it in some cases. It provides a wealth of games and community options for people that enjoy online gaming. And now some gaming companies are seeing an advantage in having a system in place to Authenticate purchases of the game.

I honestly don't know why people have so many issues with Steam. It baffles me. I just installed it a few years ago and it always ran, flawlessly I might add. I recently reset my computer. Reloaded Steam and everything was there for me.

I don't really know what else to say. Except, and I've said this before - You have plenty of time to sort out your Steam issues. You have been informed that you need Steam and an Internet Connection to authenticate the game. So you have plenty of time to get this working. Just like the other 35,000,000 users of Steam that have no issues with it. And you also have plenty of time to sort out how to solve Offline Mode issues.

All the support is here for you. Either through these forums, or through Steam forums.

I didnt realise Steam was a white knight on a charger coming to save us all! If only Post #1 had made that clear.

Not sure offers of support to help navigate around shortcomings of something I didnt want in the first place are that "exciting" to me though.

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1. I never have (never quoted stats to back up my points and often state that opinion in here, including my own, is to be considered totally representative of the norm.)

2. I have issues with enforced DRM, not Steam. But in my experience Steam does not work properly - it is that simple! (and we all remember Uniloc's failings 3 years ago whilst on the subject)

3. Pro Steamers keep telling those of us with Steam problems to do this and do that and upgrade this and download that. None or which is proven 100% succesful. Read back to SI mods posting "oh yeah just do this" then posting a while later "that shouldnt happen, they should fix this". Errr, yes you'd think.

1. No idea what your point is

2. Well software companies have issues with people nicking their stuff and giving it away for free that they feel they need to manage their rights digitally - somehow. 3 year ago failing? Steam has been updated and works better than it did 3 years ago. And 3 years from now it will work better than it does now - and so on.

3. I'm not a Pro Steamer. I installed it and never had to do a thing to get it to work as I expected. It pretty much sits there and does what it does while I play games.

Honestly, I find a lot of the time that people that follow simple instructions often gloss over them or make their own decision on a setting rather than follow the guideline. Granted not all the time, some people do follow them explicitly and still have issues. This then leads to something else being the cause. Like a Firewall Setting, or running a particular anti-virus software that has blocked it somehow. Or lots of other scenarios that I can't really think of off the top of my head.

It really does suck that you have issues with Steam. And I feel for you. But I still don't know - after I don't know how many pages - what exactly your issue is with Steam is?

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Steam was unreliable for years and I'll attest to that in a second! But it has had time to mature and develop and these days it's very reliable. This is -especially- true compared to alternative solutions. First example that comes to mind is Ubisoft's servers going down and only the pirates being able to play Assassin's Creed 2 for... A week? I can't remember.

Steam has also recently taken a -huge- upgrade in server quality. IF your only experience of Steam is a few years old, you're perfectly justified in thinking it's unreliable (I used it for the first thing that ever used it, Counterstrike 1.6 and believe me, I refused to use Steam for anything until Half Life 2 -required- it even with my boxed copy. I complained, much like people here.) However, over recent years it's gone up in leaps and bounds...

Also, yeah, Steam is responsible for huge leaps and bounds for indie gaming and keeping PC gaming a little bit stronger at a time when PC gaming showed a real damaging hit to sales.

Oh Jeez!, comparing something unreliable to something even more unreliable or saying "its much better than it used to be" is the latest Steamactivation Army War Cry. Heaven help us all!

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I didnt realise Steam was a white knight on a charger coming to save us all! If only Post #1 had made that clear.

Not sure offers of support to help navigate around shortcomings of something I didnt want in the first place are that "exciting" to me though.

Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.

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Been away for a week or so and missed all this fun!

Approaching 4000 posts on this subject, many users posting multiple messages. Shall we say 2000 unhappy users who are thinking of not buying this years edition?

All due respect but 2000 missing sales isn't going to make a dent, especially if people are more reluctant/unable to pirate the game and make a purchase (time will tell)

I admire SI and SEGA for having the balls to try and combat a growing problem for pc games.

I

That's maybe just what you can gather from reading this forum (there are also other forums out there with similar talk going on), there are also plenty of people who do not use the forums so what they are going to say about it? Your guess is as good as mine. Add the ones that don't have internet/reliable connections and you will start to see a bigger picture here. Are people really forgetting that the FM gamer is not your normal, typical gamer - they're football fans. Most hard-core gamers don't have that much thought on football (except it's cute how they like to see them bounce them balls of them heads...), show this hard-core croud a FM press conference and you might have them running for the hills...

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Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.

I'm positive that he got it working earlier and is just waiting for the demo. I recall that in an earlier post of his. I'm not sure why he's still complaining though. Here it is, a post he made earlier.

I hope you are right. My experience is:

Friday - cant log in old Steam account (due to software update apparantly)

Friday- create new account (worked eventually, had problems though due to software upgrade....)

Saturday - Steam Screenshot Manager starts intruding into the log off process

Sunday & Monday so far - no problems but havent used Steam since Sat

Within that same period others have experienced other problems accessing Steam which are well documented in previous posts.

I have no doubt that these posts only happen when the extraordinary occurs (eg log on problems, or indeed many years use use with no issues - not many services can actually boast that),and that Steam users with no access issues are un likely to search out this thread to state that all is fine so it is impossible to guage any stats on reliability or not of Steam, but the issues discused (Sotware upgrades, ISP interference & "Terrorist" attacks on servers do happen and it is the chance of those which bothers me - a chance percentage I cannot begin to calculate.

I suspect in ten years there will only be DRM of this type, it will be unproblematic and no one will have any issues with it (pirates aside!) BUT the experiences of the last 4 days suggest right now that reliability is a long way from being assured.

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1. No idea what your point is

2. Well software companies have issues with people nicking their stuff and giving it away for free that they feel they need to manage their rights digitally - somehow. 3 year ago failing? Steam has been updated and works better than it did 3 years ago. And 3 years from now it will work better than it does now - and so on.

3. I'm not a Pro Steamer. I installed it and never had to do a thing to get it to work as I expected. It pretty much sits there and does what it does while I play games.

Honestly, I find a lot of the time that people that follow simple instructions often gloss over them or make their own decision on a setting rather than follow the guideline. Granted not all the time, some people do follow them explicitly and still have issues. This then leads to something else being the cause. Like a Firewall Setting, or running a particular anti-virus software that has blocked it somehow. Or lots of other scenarios that I can't really think of off the top of my head.

It really does suck that you have issues with Steam. And I feel for you. But I still don't know - after I don't know how many pages - what exactly your issue is with Steam is?

Dont worry the "point" got lost several posts ago, not worth backtracking- trust me!

The thing is I make my posts from the position of having problems. It irks those of us with problems to hear overjoyed Steam fans telling us all is fine. We are not telling the Steam faithful that they cannot use Steam remember, we are just saying we think there must be a better way (as we feel Steam is unreliable). For what it is worth I plan to buy the digital release, probably though Steam, activating over breakfast on 21st Oct without leaving the door (all of which sounds great in theory) but my faith is shaken and if the demo download goes nippletassles up I will probably cancel any plan of buying FM12 at all. I hope all surprises going forwards are nice ones, I really do. And thank you for appreciating my frustrations (details posted previously).

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Oh Jeez!, comparing something unreliable to something even more unreliable or saying "its much better than it used to be" is the latest Steamactivation Army War Cry. Heaven help us all!

I'm sorry, clearly I didn't phrase it the way I meant. I don't mean "It's better than it used to be" so much as I mean "It used to be bad. Now it is good."

And I'm simply saying that people are acting like SI made some horrible decision without thought. I'm simply saying that they probably gave it a lot of thought and decided that of all of the alternatives, Steam was the one that provided the best pro:con ratio.

I am not defending Steam blindly. I am defending Steam with, what I feel are reasonable arguments. I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm being a blind fan, but the last issue that I've ever had with Steam was the fact that Bioshock didn't unlock (I'd preordered it) until almost the next day... something that turned out to have been 2K's decision. That was about four years ago now. The legitimate argument I -am- hearing from people is that people don't like digital DRM systems. I completely agree that they aren't fun, but I also think they are necessary and have proven time and time again to delay, or reduce piracy. A single online activation is not "treating everyone like a criminal". It's just a simple nod that they're asking for. I don't think it's that much to ask (that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures. I'm not pro-evil-DRM, but I think that a single online activation isn't asking much... and I'll repeat... a lot of people beg developers to add Steamworks to their games and games often find that the Steam version sells more because people enjoy the benefits... This is not a DRM system without it's benefits.)

Steam is not perfect. It sucks to have to activate online at all, but it's a two second thing that you were -always- going to have to do with one system or another. I have experienced the classic "Game is not available" error on Steam and it sucks, but I have not had it in years now.

I guess I'm just saying that people don't act like Steam is a big evil decision that SI made. It's a decision made with customers as their first priority. If not, there are far worse DRM systems they could've used that stop piracy a lot better.

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Better than the PC gaming industry going bust, which was kinda happening. There's a bigger picture here.

Well if you can't get it to work with all the support that is here for you, nobody from SI Sega or Steam is going to come around to your house.

If you want to play FM12, you have to have STeam and an Internet Connection. It's up to you to get it working. If you don't want to do that then don't buy FM12. It couldn't be any simpler.

Decision has been made, you need Steam to play FM12. Either get it working or don't.

I agree piracy is a big issue though the loyal FM player who only really plays FM is not the sort of person to look for snide downloads - not saying it never happens but it is unlikely. Those (with all due respect) that have libraries of 266 games (or whatever) are the sort more likely to search for cheapies or freebies (although those of good character will not thieve, I appreciate that).

This "its done, deal with it" attitude is poor but in line with official SI policy it seems so I cannot blame you for that. I have stated a few times my own FM12 purchasing plans and hope to be presently surprised BUT if it all goes wrong for any technical reason SI can expect a huge backlash - the size and effect of which none of us can anticipate.

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Dont worry the "point" got lost several posts ago, not worth backtracking- trust me!

The thing is I make my posts from the position of having problems. It irks those of us with problems to hear overjoyed Steam fans telling us all is fine. We are not telling the Steam faithful that they cannot use Steam remember, we are just saying we think there must be a better way (as we feel Steam is unreliable). For what it is worth I plan to buy the digital release, probably though Steam, activating over breakfast on 21st Oct without leaving the door (all of which sounds great in theory) but my faith is shaken and if the demo download goes nippletassles up I will probably cancel any plan of buying FM12 at all. I hope all surprises going forwards are nice ones, I really do. And thank you for appreciating my frustrations (details posted previously).

Just a thing... If you can find the game cheaper in store... I recommend getting that over buying the Steam version just because installing from the DVD will probably be faster than downloading. Even if you have to add time to get out of your PJs and get to the store :)

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Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software. None of which is anything new on computers. You buy a computer, your first 3rd Party software is the Operating System, Windows or Mac. You then have an internet client, a music client, a video client, etc. and now a game client.

Yeh SI and Sega went with Steam. But in the first post they said it was their best option and forewent anything for FM10 or FM11 until an acceptable solution was presented to them. They've spent 2 or 3 years on this and figuring out the best option for them AND their customers. And they also said the decision was not made lightly. I take that there was absolute war and battles happened over this in the meetings.

At the end of the day, it's what we all have to work with. We're all in the same boat. We all have to get it working.

I'm advocating that any one with issues should really post about what their exact issue is, either here or on the Steam forums. If you don't want to use Steam - then fine. Announce your disposition with DRM and your unwillingness to buy the game. If you're refusing to buy the game because of Steam related issues, I can only urge people to post the exact issue, and contact the support teams already in place, or visit their forums.

It's black and white for me. If you want to play FM12 you need Steam and Internet. If you don't want to install Steam you can't play FM12. And if you don't have the internet you'll have to figure out a way to get it to Authenticate the game, switch to offline mode and enjoy FM12, or else you won't be able to buy it. It's marked clearly on the box "internet connection necessary". Anyone that hasn't got Internet can't download it anyway. Anyone buying it in the shop will see the warning on the front of the box and can say "I don't have internet that game is not for me".

Regards to all the people saying "Steam is great and I have no issues" that's simply because they see all the negativity portrayed by people that have a problem with Steam before they even download or try it out or have downloaded it and can't get it to work and refuse to try and fix it but rather complain instead.

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I'm sorry, clearly I didn't phrase it the way I meant. I don't mean "It's better than it used to be" so much as I mean "It used to be bad. Now it is good."

And I'm simply saying that people are acting like SI made some horrible decision without thought. I'm simply saying that they probably gave it a lot of thought and decided that of all of the alternatives, Steam was the one that provided the best pro:con ratio.

I am not defending Steam blindly. I am defending Steam with, what I feel are reasonable arguments. I'm sorry that you disagree and think I'm being a blind fan, but the last issue that I've ever had with Steam was the fact that Bioshock didn't unlock (I'd preordered it) until almost the next day... something that turned out to have been 2K's decision. That was about four years ago now. The legitimate argument I -am- hearing from people is that people don't like digital DRM systems. I completely agree that they aren't fun, but I also think they are necessary and have proven time and time again to delay, or reduce piracy. A single online activation is not "treating everyone like a criminal". It's just a simple nod that they're asking for. I don't think it's that much to ask (that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures. I'm not pro-evil-DRM, but I think that a single online activation isn't asking much... and I'll repeat... a lot of people beg developers to add Steamworks to their games and games often find that the Steam version sells more because people enjoy the benefits... This is not a DRM system without it's benefits.)

Steam is not perfect. It sucks to have to activate online at all, but it's a two second thing that you were -always- going to have to do with one system or another. I have experienced the classic "Game is not available" error on Steam and it sucks, but I have not had it in years now.

I guess I'm just saying that people don't act like Steam is a big evil decision that SI made. It's a decision made with customers as their first priority. If not, there are far worse DRM systems they could've used that stop piracy a lot better.

Although you may think your post still is opposed to my position I have to generally agree with all you say therein. I do however believe the decision was Sega's, not SI's but that is not really important.

I really really hope that problems on 21st OCT are minimal and that this is the first step to exploring the convenience of digital downloading for me, I have no anti-Steam axe to grind. I just pray that faulty software upgrades and suchlike are a thing of the past now.

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Although you may think your post still is opposed to my position I have to generally agree with all you say therein. I do however believe the decision was Sega's, not SI's but that is not really important.

I really really hope that problems on 21st OCT are minimal and that this is the first step to exploring the convenience of digital downloading for me, I have no anti-Steam axe to grind. I just pray that faulty software upgrades and suchlike are a thing of the past now.

I hope so too... 'cause if Steam crashes on 21st Oct, I'm gonna look like a right twit after all this :D

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I agree piracy is a big issue though the loyal FM player who only really plays FM is not the sort of person to look for snide downloads

See this is it - everyone thinks they are being punished and being forced to jump through hoops.

For football manager they sold 5.95 million games in Europe, 5.77 million games in North America and 1.9 million in Japan.

SI have said that if 1/4 of the people that pirate the game actually bought it it would DOUBLE the sales.

Very loose stats here but a bit of thought imagination here goes a long way

Based on sales and SI/SEGA statement

5.95 million in Europe = 23.8 million people pirating it

5.77 million in North America = 23.08 million pirating

1.9 milloin in Japan = 7.6 million pirating

=

13 million vs 54 million pirating

If 1/4 of each of those didn't pirate that would

11 million in Europ

10.5 million in NA

3.8 million in Japan

=

25.3 million sales vs 27 million pirating

Very loose figures. But you get the idea.

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I can't believe that some people are suggesting that the gamming industry is on the verge of going broke, between the three entertainment industries (movies/tv, music and gamming) gamming just grew to the biggest of them. Has the movie industry gone bust, has the music industry? Come on, man...

What about other industries like clothing, they are copying all over the place - have they gone bust? Prevention, has it really made a difference anywhere? Usually the more you prevent the bigger the piracy (hard to get ideology promotes it), so if the gamming industry thinks they can do it better than everyone else then who are they kidding? (except a few fellow gamers on this forum)...

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Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software. None of which is anything new on computers. You buy a computer, your first 3rd Party software is the Operating System, Windows or Mac. You then have an internet client, a music client, a video client, etc. and now a game client.

Yeh SI and Sega went with Steam. But in the first post they said it was their best option and forewent anything for FM10 or FM11 until an acceptable solution was presented to them. They've spent 2 or 3 years on this and figuring out the best option for them AND their customers. And they also said the decision was not made lightly. I take that there was absolute war and battles happened over this in the meetings.

At the end of the day, it's what we all have to work with. We're all in the same boat. We all have to get it working.

I'm advocating that any one with issues should really post about what their exact issue is, either here or on the Steam forums. If you don't want to use Steam - then fine. Announce your disposition with DRM and your unwillingness to buy the game. If you're refusing to buy the game because of Steam related issues, I can only urge people to post the exact issue, and contact the support teams already in place, or visit their forums.

It's black and white for me. If you want to play FM12 you need Steam and Internet. If you don't want to install Steam you can't play FM12. And if you don't have the internet you'll have to figure out a way to get it to Authenticate the game, switch to offline mode and enjoy FM12, or else you won't be able to buy it. It's marked clearly on the box "internet connection necessary". Anyone that hasn't got Internet can't download it anyway. Anyone buying it in the shop will see the warning on the front of the box and can say "I don't have internet that game is not for me".

Regards to all the people saying "Steam is great and I have no issues" that's simply because they see all the negativity portrayed by people that have a problem with Steam before they even download or try it out or have downloaded it and can't get it to work and refuse to try and fix it but rather complain instead.

Ageed, "I hate Steam......waaahaaaaaaa boohoo" on its own does not help any cause. An interesting point, it was stated 30+ (OMG!) pages ago that some people are registering just to state they will not buy FM12, and that that proves their strength of feeling. To me posters of thousand of posts (regardless of the quality ;-) ) trouble me more when they want to walkaway from FM12.

Anyway DRM looks like it is here to stay. One compromise would be for SI to plan a non DRM release of FM12 for October 2013 at a budget price of course. Cant see anyone getting excited about that prospect but any devoted anti-Steamer would have an acceptable route to FM12, allbeit a rather delayed one. As a "put up & shut up" measure that would be about as much as I would find acceptable.

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This "its done, deal with it" attitude is poor but in line with official SI policy it seems so I cannot blame you for that. I have stated a few times my own FM12 purchasing plans and hope to be presently surprised BUT if it all goes wrong for any technical reason SI can expect a huge backlash - the size and effect of which none of us can anticipate.

I would imagine that even if steam is working 100% on release day the forums are still going to be mad, they are every release and patch day because of the number of problems that can go wrong when installing a new game, steam related or not. Rest assured SI and the mods are dreading release day because they know exactly what to expect on here, i dont think anything will take them by suprise.

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Ageed, "I hate Steam......waaahaaaaaaa boohoo" on its own does not help any cause. An interesting point, it was stated 30+ (OMG!) pages ago that some people are registering just to state they will not buy FM12, and that that proves their strength of feeling. To me posters of thousand of posts (regardless of the quality ;-) ) trouble me more when they want to walkaway from FM12.

Anyway DRM looks like it is here to stay. One compromise would be for SI to plan a non DRM release of FM12 for October 2013 at a budget price of course. Cant see anyone getting excited about that prospect but any devoted anti-Steamer would have an acceptable route to FM12, allbeit a rather delayed one. As a "put up & shut up" measure that would be about as much as I would find acceptable.

I like this idea. It's not actually new, but the last team I know that tried it had some issues getting their DRM working... But as has I said before... DRM is always a limited thing... you want to stop people pirating it week one (if possible) you don't expect it to still be working in a month... so why not release a DRM free version a month later or two months? (Admitedly when Steam is involved, I suspect that companies rely on Steam for other things that make it difficult to pull it out. For example, Steam's cloud saves that let you play from any computer and carry on your savegames or simply the patching process) but I am totally in favour of the idea! Like I said, I know a company that said "Our game will go DRM free after the first couple of days. We're only interested in stopping the piracy at the start so people don't have the option of "pirate now or wait a couple of days for it to be released properly" :) They sadly had issues and tears...

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Its not so much the patching issues, but the demanding patches, and god forbid if anything goes wrong with any of the patches and peoples games auto update and not work, Polish issue im looking at you!!hahaha

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Still complaining are we? Can't get over the fact that Steam is a great platform and you should simply deal with it? If you don't like it, don't buy it.
how great or not steam is is not the argument! its having the choice (or in this case not) to download 3rd party software.

piracy my foot! ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY MONEY MONEY!

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See this is it - everyone thinks they are being punished and being forced to jump through hoops.

For football manager they sold 5.95 million games in Europe, 5.77 million games in North America and 1.9 million in Japan.

SI have said that if 1/4 of the people that pirate the game actually bought it it would DOUBLE the sales.

Very loose stats here but a bit of thought imagination here goes a long way

Based on sales and SI/SEGA statement

5.95 million in Europe = 23.8 million people pirating it

5.77 million in North America = 23.08 million pirating

1.9 milloin in Japan = 7.6 million pirating

=

13 million vs 54 million pirating

If 1/4 of each of those didn't pirate that would

11 million in Europ

10.5 million in NA

3.8 million in Japan

=

25.3 million sales vs 27 million pirating

Very loose figures. But you get the idea.

You have no idea what you are talking about and these numbers you are pulling out is way off beat. SI/SEGA has spoke on a global perspective, so if you really go through the stats then you have the 3rd world countries (the one's who cannot afford it) that really pull those figures in a certain direction. Your post here is a real distortion of the truth, my friend, so before you start venturing down this path make sure you get your stats correct... :thup:

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I like this idea. It's not actually new, but the last team I know that tried it had some issues getting their DRM working... But as has I said before... DRM is always a limited thing... you want to stop people pirating it week one (if possible) you don't expect it to still be working in a month... so why not release a DRM free version a month later or two months? (Admitedly when Steam is involved, I suspect that companies rely on Steam for other things that make it difficult to pull it out. For example, Steam's cloud saves that let you play from any computer and carry on your savegames or simply the patching process) but I am totally in favour of the idea! Like I said, I know a company that said "Our game will go DRM free after the first couple of days. We're only interested in stopping the piracy at the start so people don't have the option of "pirate now or wait a couple of days for it to be released properly" :) They sadly had issues and tears...

I would go further - a boxed DRM free release fully patched out of the box with bonus skins to be released early Summer the following year with an added promotion & relegation update for the seasons end. Who knows, could be a whole new market. Probably not commercially viable though.

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Tiger - the issue is there's an abundant amount of posts saying "Steam sucks".

And nobody saying what they think "sucks". It gets into a debate about civil liberties and being forced to install 3rd party software.

You have this backwards, and it's what you are about that leads you to see it this way. You posted earlier "that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures" this is just what many people in this thread have done, except you chose to draw your line on a different part of the beach.

Do you see it yet?

The difference is, there won't be the same handful of pro-Ubisoft people repeating the same things over and over because you dared to express an opinion not wholly to their liking, clouding the real issue in the process.

EDIT: Please see post #4010

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Not that it matters, but I think all this angst about this move is ridiculous.

I love Steam and have used it for years, and buy %90 of my PC games through it. I have bought the last several versions of FM on it without issue.

A one time online activation is hardly an egregious breach of anything. It's so not like Diablo with it's 'always online' requirement (sorry no playing Diablo III on your 22 hour flight to Hong Kong, loser!).

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You have this backwards, and it's what you are about that leads you to see it this way. You posted earlier "that said, I refused to buy Ubisoft games or Diablo 3 (when it comes out) because I think those games have crossed the barrier to causing the consumer experience serious harm with their anti-piracy measures" this is just what many people in this thread have done, except you chose to draw your line on a different part of the beach.

Do you see it yet?

The difference is, there won't be the same handful of pro-Ubisoft people repeating the same things over and over because you dared to express an opinion not wholly to their liking, clouding the real issue in the process.

It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...

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It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...

So, what you are saying is that it is kind of like the Church - "Join us today, don't you see all the opportunities we are handing out? Save yourselves now!..."

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It was me who said that actually. And... Yeah, you make a good point. I think that drawing the line at "a single one time activation" or "installing a service that provides a lot of additional benefits (even if I don't care about them, they will be useful to a lot of people)" seems to be pushing it to extreme... especially seeing as these people were fine with the activation we had last year...

Post #3991, Page 40. :thup:

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