David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Well, aparently we have more internet connections then countries like China, India, Bangledesh, Pakistan, Thailand, Russia just to name a few (combined naturally)...

I think this conversation isn't going to do you any favors, pigfacemonkeyman...

Now I'm getting bored of the repetition, you've made another straw man argument, my original point was that quoting piracy rates ALONE is not enough to support your point, or it was until you started misrepresenting what I'd said.

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Well that's true. There's pirate copies of every piece of software that is currently available.

The idea is to delay piracy.

Enough said. That's exactly what SI/SEGA are trying to do. It's THEIR final decision. Not yours. If you don't like it then take it somewhere else. If the decision prove costly for them in the end, you win.

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still can't get steam working correctly on my mac (OSX Lion), shame really was looking forward to FM12

will be sticking with FM11.

Steam support = Useless

I am using iMac OS X Lion. I also am using steam without any problem at all. So that must be your computer that's having a issue.

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Basically because not everybody in a specified country has the ability to get a pirate copy.

I suppose if you wanted to be even MORE accurate you'd want to look at the number of people with computer access to account for pirate copies which are sold in physical form rather than just downloaded.

You 'suppose', 'MORE accurate', I suppose that if you had stopped to think, you might not have needed to post a correction to your original post.

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Well my original point, which I will state for the LAST time, since you're so bored of people repeating themselves, that piracy rates on their own aren't enough to back up Loversleapers point, still stands.

I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.

Care to refute that instead of just attacking me?

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I don't get this. You can't sue "an area".

It's a sad day when a joke isn't a joke if there isn't a smilie attached:(

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It's a sad day when a joke isn't a joke if there isn't a smilie attached:(

Yeah, it's like buying a bubble car and......finding it doesn't float.

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Well my original point, which I will state for the LAST time, that piracy rates on their own aren't enough to back up Loversleapers point, still stands.

Care to refute that instead of just attacking me?

No need to get paranoid, who was attacking you? You stated that I was a 'straw-man' for posting a reliable link and that you were more correct then the statistics that we have more internet connections then the top 60 countries (combined) thus making the perfect argument that we download more than them due to this. I think you don't need to get defensive since you 'most likely' are the correct one in the matter. I was merely defending my viewpoint.

I think it is best that we don't talk about this anymore so you don't feel attacked. Sorry to have made you feel the way you do. :thup:

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Heinkel used to make a bubble car, it didn't fly either:D

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No need to get paranoid, who was attacking you? You stated that I was a 'straw-man' for posting a reliable link and that you were more correct then the statistics that we have more internet connections then the top 60 countries (combined) thus making the perfect argument that we download more than them due to this. I think you don't need to get defensive since you 'most likely' are the correct one in the matter. I was merely defending my viewpoint.

I think it is best that we don't talk about this anymore so you don't feel attacked. Sorry to have made you feel the way you do. :thup:

Actually I was referring to pigfacemonkeyman when I said attacking. You don't understand what I mean by 'straw man', I'd suggest looking it up, especially considering you've just done exactly the same thing again, it will help your argument.

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Basically because not everybody in a specified country has the ability to get a pirate copy.

I suppose if you wanted to be even MORE accurate you'd want to look at the number of people with computer access to account for pirate copies which are sold/given away in physical form (i.e. somebody downloads a pirate copy, then makes multiple copies and puts them onto discs) rather than just downloaded.

I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.

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@afced7

Looking it up might not be accurate compared to what you meant, I think what you meant was that I was clutching at straws or something. Let's get back on track as we are doing no favors for the point of the whole thread. There are good arguments being thrown up and I simply don't want to have a mud-throwing contest with you. If you feel attacked then for what it's worth, take my apology (although you have stated it wasn't directed at me) and let's please let the matter lie.

Thanks

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I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.

It comes into it, although I've since amended my point to include 'computer users' although maybe people without computer access buy pirate copies too? I'm not sure

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@afced7

Looking it up might not be accurate compared to what you meant, I think what you meant was that I was clutching at straws or something. Let's get back on track as we are doing no favors for the point of the whole thread. There are good arguments being thrown up and I simply don't want to have a mud-throwing contest with you. If you feel attacked then for what it's worth, take my apology (although you have stated it wasn't directed at me) and let's please let the matter lie.

Thanks

No I know perfectly well what it means, I wasn't insinuating you were clutching at straws, but you were presenting my argument inaccurately so as to more easily dismiss it. But yeah I'm done, there's no point arguing with somebody who doesn't understand the logical fallacies in their own argument.

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No I know perfectly well what it means, I wasn't insinuating you were clutching at straws, but you were presenting my argument inaccurately so as to more easily dismiss it. But yeah I'm done, there's no point arguing with somebody who doesn't understand the logical fallacies in their own argument.

I didn't present your argument inaccurately, you stated that we had more internet connections than the countries on the piracy statistic list. The reason for not continuing the discussion is simply due to the post that playmaker just wrote in response to you. He just made a very interresting post and something I was hoping came up at one point because he is highlighting one of the main cores of the problems with piracy. Please read his post because it is starting to shed light on what we are dealing with on the topic of piracy...

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I didn't present your argument inaccurately, you stated that we had more internet connections than the countries on the piracy statistic list. The reason for not continuing the discussion is simply due to the post that playmaker just wrote in response to you. He just made a very interresting post and something I was hoping came up at one point because he is highlighting one of the main cores of the problems with piracy. Please read his post because it is starting to shed light on what we are dealing with on the topic of piracy...
I'd just like to point out that piracy RATE could be a little misleading, it is possible that while a country such as Armenia has a higher piracy rate than say the UK, more people overall may illegally download software in the UK.

Nowhere there do I suggest that we have more internet connections, just that piracy rate CAN be misleading on its own. If you disagree, please quote my post where I stated that the west has more internet connections that other countries.

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I don't know about every country on that list, but I know of one company that had a lot of problems controlling their counterparts in China, where they could get pirated software straight off the shelves of any computer shop, complete with packaging, manuals and certificate of authenticity (no idea whether that applies to games software, but it's a reasonable assumption). As far as I am aware (keeping in mind this was 4 years ago) internet connections don't really come into it - just good old fashioned CDs.

I've also sat through an interminably dull 113 slide presentation at Microsoft about counterfeiting (three times - what did I do to deserve that?) that talked about the scale of organised crime in China. Given the ease of availability to the 'man on the street', I'd say population would have to come into it.

I don't have the exact statistics but China definatly is one of the big contributers to piracy, they export a lot of these products to most of south-east asia. They do have fierce competition from neighboring countries that have 'caught on' to the massive underground market. We haven't even got to South America or Africa yet, but when we do I think that Europe won't have squat compared to the bigger picture. Now, if Steam got all these places to change their minds and purchase the game then I will be surprised (to say the least) - maybe even shocked...

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Nowhere there do I suggest that we have more internet connections, just that piracy rate CAN be misleading on its own. If you disagree, please quote my post where I stated that the west has more internet connections that other countries.
Like I said, I won't comment on SI doubling their profits, none of us have the necessary facts to judge whether they will or not. Also, technically speaking, population shouldn't be looked at to determine potential piracy, the number of internet users should be, or the percentage of people with internet access. You've got a much more coherent argument there now you've left the EULA stuff alone. Anyway my original point was that piracy rates alone aren't enough to support your point, now you're taking in population figures as well to support your point-much better.

Maybe I missed the point, it just sounded like you suggested that we have more internet access. If I was mistaken then I am sorry, now please understand if I am not going to respond to you as clearly you have the need to confront me. I have to go to dinner so it all works out nicely... ;)

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Not at all, congratulations for finally understanding after 2 1/2 hours, and hey, you learned what a straw man argument looks like, maybe you'll be better prepared for any future debates. Enjoy your dinner.

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basically the truth about Steam

I'm so glad this fine young man posts all this so I don't have to. I agree with absolutely everything he posts on the subject.

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That's one way to cure my 18 year addiction. Shame they couldn't have done this when I was at Uni ;).

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Some replies I missed a few pages ago:

.. bunch of stuff I agree with ..

I don't know how many folks like me there are out there. But the more DRM that appears, the less money I spend. Music, film, games. They are fun, entertaining activities that I partake in in my spare time. The more arduous and restrictive this is made, the more I feel bullied for being a law abiding upstanding member of the community, the less fun it is. I've been to more concerts than I have bought albums on iTunes (none). I've been to more football matches than I have purchased games on steam (none). And I've been to more plays than I have been to a main stream cinema (less relevant, but included for completeness).

It's not fun any more. I don't want to play.

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I don't know how many folks like me there are out there. But the more DRM that appears, the less money I spend. Music, film, games. They are fun, entertaining activities that I partake in in my spare time. The more arduous and restrictive this is made, the more I feel bullied for being a law abiding upstanding member of the community, the less fun it is. I've been to more concerts than I have bought albums on iTunes (none). I've been to more football matches than I have purchased games on steam (none). And I've been to more plays than I have been to a main stream cinema (less relevant, but included for completeness).

It's not fun any more. I don't want to play.

I feel exactly the same. I don't want to sign agreements with external companies or commit to external software to play a single videogame. I want to buy that videogame and play it when and where I want to. That is a vital part of the entertainment to me. If they take away this part, I can't see myself playing FM any more.

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I feel exactly the same. I don't want to sign agreements with external companies or commit to external software to play a single videogame. I want to buy that videogame and play it when and where I want to. That is a vital part of the entertainment to me. If they take away this part, I can't see myself playing FM any more.

Yes, but you must understand that, like everything else, the software industry it's not the same as it was 15 years ago.

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Yes, but you must understand that, like everything else, the software industry it's not the same as it was 15 years ago.

I do understand that. I also understand that this deal with steam is probably an excellent business deal for SI. Can't blame them for that.

Nonetheless this decision will cause a number of fans to stop playing FM and that's a fact. From my (very) limited personal experience (which includes myself and a few friends of mine, plus what I've read in this thread) I can tell you that a fair share of those are long time customers and older fans.

Like many others, I like to think that the success of SI and CM/FM is strongly related to the goodwill and passion of their diehard fans, and you must give credit to SI for building and developing this bond probably like nobody else. Now I think this move is a serious threat to that bond, and may eventually harm the game more than sales or numbers could ever show.

just my opinion.

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I do understand that. I also understand that this deal with steam is probably an excellent business deal for SI. Can't blame them for that.

Nonetheless this decision will cause a number of fans to stop playing FM and that's a fact. From my (very) limited personal experience (which includes myself and a few friends of mine, plus what I've read in this thread) I can tell you that a fair share of those are long time customers and older fans.

Like many others, I like to think that the success of SI and CM/FM is strongly related to the goodwill and passion of their diehard fans, and you must give credit to SI for building and developing this bond probably like nobody else. Now I think this move is a serious threat to that bond, and may eventually harm the game more than sales or numbers could ever show.

just my opinion.

I agree with you when you talk about this great bond that exists between the community and SI. It's a vital part, i believe, of the whole sucess that Football Manager is.

But i also believe that SI respects, a lot, the bond. Every year we have proof of the great respect that SI have for all users and the dedication that they have in offering a good game.

This decision, as Miles said, was not taken lightly and perhaps they even think..."this will **** off a couple of users". But now i ask you, where is the BOND when for a simple reason as it is this one (installing a software like steam), people that play this games for ages, just like that stop playing it?

I not here trying to change anyone mind, yours in particulary, but i really find hard to understand that a football manager fan, a person that play this game, that love this game for 10/15 years, just turn the back to all this because of a reason like this one.

But hey, perhaps you think..."how do these people accept to continue playing when they are forced to install steam?!?!?!?!"

As for me, I got used to see SI as a company that has great respect for those who spend money on their products. And as such, could never consider this situation (Steamgate) as a personal attack, or a lack of respect.

It got me thinking... if it was another company... EA, Konami....perhaps! But its ****ing SI! it's ****ing FM! If they ask... install steam! ok, no problem!

But like you... just my opinion! :)

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I was just listening to some music and it got me thinking about something, I remember somewhere that it was mentioned about how piracy was really effecting the industry (to the point where FM could actually go extinct). The same thing was talked about in the music industry and the movie industry, these industries were eventually hit really hard. There isn't a limit to what you can download for free anywhere on the net - a darn lot easier then downloading computer games with that torrent bits stuff and what not. So, I was wondering if the music has got worse? Statistically = not really, but my personal oppinion it's a yeah (but I still like The Beatles). Is the music industry on the verge of extinction? Highly unlikely.

What about movies? Have they got any worse or on the verge of extinction? Are they going broke? Charlie Sheen just got 100m Dolores so it can't be that bad. I think somewhere it was mentioned that the gamming industry grew to the biggest of the three, so I think it is safe to assume that FM will survive. Maybe they won't make a zillion - maybe have to work a little harder for their buck, maybe make a game that blows your mind to keep themselves on top of the game. I can't see this as a bad thing, on the contrary, I can't find the power in me to feel sorry for these people. Maybe I am harsh and should show compassion, I just think there are a lot of people who comes way before them...

I am not anti FM and have never been. I have always done work over in the T&T and most likely will carry on doing so, I have always enjoyed the ME no matter how comical it can behave at times. There are lot's of great things in FM and some things that are not so fun - but overall lots of great fun. I'm a gamers gamer, I'll stick up for a gamer over the corp anyday - that is why I have taken my standpoint. I know that we probably are kidding ourselves to thinking we can make a difference writing on this forum - but it is quite evident that this is an issue. The closed polls weren't exactly favorable for the move - and that is from gamers who have internet connection (and visit the site). I was wondering what the (retrievable) piracy rate compares to the ammount that downloaded from Steam last year is perceived - I hope of course they got it right, but I can't help feeling that we somehow have been bullied into this reality to play the game we all enjoy (and hope to keep enjoying)...

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Even with iPads you have to transfer ownership to someone else. You can't retain anything.

Same goes with any Software. If you are selling it you may not keep any part of it. Same goes for FM. You may not keep a copy for yourself all of the ownership of the game must be transferred.

Is it possible to transfer ownership of a game in Steam? If so this alleviates much of my criticism of the system.

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I agree with you when you talk about this great bond that exists between the community and SI. It's a vital part, i believe, of the whole sucess that Football Manager is.

But i also believe that SI respects, a lot, the bond. Every year we have proof of the great respect that SI have for all users and the dedication that they have in offering a good game.

This decision, as Miles said, was not taken lightly and perhaps they even think..."this will **** off a couple of users". But now i ask you, where is the BOND when for a simple reason as it is this one (installing a software like steam), people that play this games for ages, just like that stop playing it?

I not here trying to change anyone mind, yours in particulary, but i really find hard to understand that a football manager fan, a person that play this game, that love this game for 10/15 years, just turn the back to all this because of a reason like this one.

But hey, perhaps you think..."how do these people accept to continue playing when they are forced to install steam?!?!?!?!"

As for me, I got used to see SI as a company that has great respect for those who spend money on their products. And as such, could never consider this situation (Steamgate) as a personal attack, or a lack of respect.

It got me thinking... if it was another company... EA, Konami....perhaps! But its ****ing SI! it's ****ing FM! If they ask... install steam! ok, no problem!

But like you... just my opinion! :)

You know, I've always been glad trying to help SI improving their game. I used to spend some of my free time (which I consider more valuable than money ;)) "working" for a friend of mine who was a FM researcher for Italy. Tried to help with some (shocking... :p) translation issues too. And I was always happy to do that, as it made me feel more involved in the game I loved. And I can only say good things of people like Neil Brock, or the guys of the technical support.

There are several reasons I simply can't accept to install Steam to play FM, both practical or based on principles and all have been well explained by users like Mantralux, Pigfacemonkeyman and x42bn6 (and many others actually). I consider you somewhat lucky as these reasons aren't enough for you to stop playing the game. Unfortunately for me and a few other people, they are.

I don't consider the "Steamgate" a personal attack or a lack of respect towards me. I think it's a cold business decision more than anything else. Which in my eyes makes SI just like EA, Konami or any other company. As I said I can't blame them for that.

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Just a question...

If my laptop breaks down, will I be able to deactivate it somewhere else(since my laptop cannot be on) so that I can play on another 1 machine?

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I have not seen this earlier in the thread but my big worrie its not using steam regulary, its the release day.

Remember 14 November 2008? It is some reason why that day its the record of online for this community. It was a Huge problem with the codes to FM2009.

Please, have some backup for that problem. You know, fans of this beautiful game wants to have it quick as possible.

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Does anyone want to go back to activation servers constantly crashing and having to call a phone number to play the game 3 days after you bought it? No? Then I think we should be happy. Besides Steam has some amazing game sales, I purchased FM 2011 a long time ago there for $9.99

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Just a question...

If my laptop breaks down, will I be able to deactivate it somewhere else(since my laptop cannot be on) so that I can play on another 1 machine?

Install Steam on the 'new' machine. To stop people stealing your account it will send a code to your email address. Enter that code and you will be able to use Steam like before. You can reinstall any game you have previously registered through Steam - no need to reactivate.

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I don't know how many folks like me there are out there. But the more DRM that appears, the less money I spend. Music, film, games. They are fun, entertaining activities that I partake in in my spare time. The more arduous and restrictive this is made, the more I feel bullied for being a law abiding upstanding member of the community, the less fun it is. I've been to more concerts than I have bought albums on iTunes (none). I've been to more football matches than I have purchased games on steam (none). And I've been to more plays than I have been to a main stream cinema (less relevant, but included for completeness).

It's not fun any more. I don't want to play.

Very well put. Perhaps SI should get a grip that FM is actually a "toy". I suspect and hope that as these silly licensing rules which seem in this case to have been created for a new genre of commodity (ie software) and consequently have been tainted by the worst of the 20th Century paranoia about copywrite, will indeed be subject to new legislation soon - and that legislation will be relaxed.

You cannot stop the pirates - so punish them, that is the answer. What is really really sad is that the FM fanbase is so very loyal they would rather buy the official game - not a pirated copy, almost to a man. The Snide copy owners only get it that way because it is free. If FM went on sale for £10 they wouldnt buy it they would only get a giveaway snide copy (if they could), or otherwise go without.

By the way by "toy" comment is in no way meant as a slight to the game or any players, but computer "games" even if in a simulation format are toys, they just are. Long live the toy though.

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I think in this case of DRM as a chastity belt to thwart the pirates. Did chastitiy belts really do much for the women forced to wear them? ....quite. Sorry I couldnt think of a car analogy but I kind of like this one ! :-)

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When valve put out a linux client, I will purchase FM2012, although even then I dont really want steam near my PC(s)

Until then this will be the first copy, I have not bought :/

And yeah I know I can run steam via wine, but its clunky at best.

I dont like steam either, just to add to the people who are dissatisfied with the decision. I will admit though my only real experience with it was during the HL2 launch and it was a nightmare.

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I just want to point out one final thing before leaving this thread:

If you make something great, it will sell. A fantastic product will always sell, regardless of piracy, thieves or parasites. All the hours put into preventing piracy could have been used for even more fine-tuning and polish of the game, which would ultimately increase sales.

That is the simple truth.

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I just want to point out one final thing before leaving this thread:

If you make something great, it will sell. A fantastic product will always sell, regardless of piracy, thieves or parasites. All the hours put into preventing piracy could have been used for even more fine-tuning and polish of the game, which would ultimately increase sales.

That is the simple truth.

Except that the devs who programme the game don't spend even a minute of their time on anti piracy measures, that also is a simple truth.

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I just want to point out one final thing before leaving this thread:

If you make something great, it will sell. A fantastic product will always sell, regardless of piracy, thieves or parasites. All the hours put into preventing piracy could have been used for even more fine-tuning and polish of the game, which would ultimately increase sales.

That is the simple truth.

Moving to steam means not wasting any more time on anything like that, steam will now worry about the pirates. :)

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I just want to point out one final thing before leaving this thread:

If you make something great, it will sell. A fantastic product will always sell, regardless of piracy, thieves or parasites. All the hours put into preventing piracy could have been used for even more fine-tuning and polish of the game, which would ultimately increase sales.

That is the simple truth.

The hours put into preventing piracy are spent by non-programming staff. They are not going to improve anything if they break out the C++ manuals and have a stab at coding.

I agree that if you make something great it will sell - which is why, even though I sympathise with some of the objections to Steam, I don't think the sales of FM are going to fall apart.

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Just to add a little fuel to the fire I have to share this as I found it laughable. I apparently have an account from 09 install but had completely forgotten. Was merrily going through the create an account route when it identified that my email address was already registered. Went through the "forgotten password" route only to be provided a code (OK fair enough) and the requirement to supply a "secret answer" that they asked for in French (and not only that french that doesn't translate!) Either I am missing something or there could be problems ahead. Thankfully I took a punt on some passwords I might have used and logged in. I hope others fair better if they can't remember their details!

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Just to add a little fuel to the fire I have to share this as I found it laughable. I apparently have an account from 09 install but had completely forgotten. Was merrily going through the create an account route when it identified that my email address was already registered. Went through the "forgotten password" route only to be provided a code (OK fair enough) and the requirement to supply a "secret answer" that they asked for in French (and not only that french that doesn't translate!) Either I am missing something or there could be problems ahead. Thankfully I took a punt on some passwords I might have used and logged in. I hope others fair better if they can't remember their details!

You're not the first, Barside had to jump through similar hoops for the same reason, fortunately he also got there in the end, time to remember where you stored all your old forgotten passwords folks:)

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Im pretty sure i am doing something wrong/stupid but none-the-less i will ask i hope for some help! In preparation for FM2012 i decided lastnight to try and play FM2011 on my laptop but with steam offline. I logged into stem chose to change to offline and was told "offline mode not available as my steam account details are not registered on this computer". Can anyone help? I have used the same laptop for years and am 99.9% sure this was the laptop/computer used when steam account was originally created.

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If you go to Settings on the first tab there is a tick box that says "Don't save account credentials on this computer". If it is ticked, then according to the explanation underneath it will disable offline mode.

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What if you used an old computer to setup Steam? I've got a new Mac now, but I'm getting that same message Lamby is getting. Is there a way to Reset the computer Steam is associated to?

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you should be able to move your steam account to any computer, as long as you can go online on the new computer to associate your account, i recently moved mines over to my new laptop without any problems.

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If you go to Settings on the first tab there is a tick box that says "Don't save account credentials on this computer". If it is ticked, then according to the explanation underneath it will disable offline mode.

I made sure that box wasnt clicked!!!

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I made sure that box wasnt clicked!!!

Oh, well that's my knowledge of Steam exhausted I'm afraid! Have you tried whacking it with a stick?

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Ive always had this problem where if my interent was playing up and i tried to start up FM it wouldnt let me play when i selected "start in offline mode" i would have to sort out the interent problem first, then play FM...really hope someone can offer more than "whacking it with a stick" lol

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