David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that... :thup:

I think you should try to answer my question, because then people can give you a straightforward answer instead of calling each other names and going round in circles.

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infact this is all useful reading to this conversation,

1. License Grant and Terms of Use.

A. Grant. EA grants you a personal, limited, non-exclusive license to install and use the Application for your personal, noncommercial use solely as set forth in this License and any accompanying documentation. Your acquired rights are subject to your compliance with this License. Any commercial use is prohibited. You are expressly prohibited from sublicensing, renting, leasing or otherwise distributing the Application or rights to use the Application. The term of your license shall commence on the date that you start to download, install or otherwise use the Application, and shall end on the earlier of the date that you dispose of the Application; or EA's termination of this License.

B. Copies. You may download this Application from an authorized source. The number of copies that you can download during a consecutive period of days may be limited. You may not make a copy of the Application available on a network where it could be used by multiple users at the same time. You may not make the Application available over a network where it could be downloaded by multiple users.

C. License Validation. The Application and an internet connection are required to validate the license for certain products distributed by EA. You acknowledge and agree that the Application can automatically validate license rights for some or all EA products without separate notice to you. This means that in order to use the Application and certain EA products, you must leave the Application installed on your computer. You acknowledge and agree that the Application may use information regarding your computer, hardware, media, software and your use of the Application to validate your license rights and to update the Application.

D. Application Updates. You agree that the Application may automatically download and install updates, upgrades and additional features that EA deems reasonable, beneficial to you and/or reasonably necessary. You acknowledge and agree that any obligation EA may have to support the previous version(s) may be ended upon the availability of the update, upgrade and/or implementation of additional features. This License shall apply to any updates, upgrades and/or additional features that are not distributed with a separate license or other agreement.

E. Reservation of Rights and Restrictions. The Application is licensed, and not sold, to you for use only under the terms of this License. Except as expressly licensed to you herein, EA reserves all right, title and interest in the Application and all software delivered through the Application (including all characters, storyline, images, photographs, animations, video, music, text), and all associated copyrights, trademarks, and other intellectual property rights therein. The License is limited to the intellectual property rights of EA and its licensors in the Application and does not include any rights to other patents or intellectual property. Except, and only to the extent that may be permitted under applicable law, you may not decompile, disassemble, or reverse engineer the Application by any means whatsoever, or alter,modify, enhance, or create a derivative work of the Application. You may not remove, alter, or obscure any product identification, copyright, or other intellectual property notices in the Application or software delivered through the Application.

F. Installation and Un-installation. Un-installation of the Application can be accomplished by removing the files entitled “Origin” (“Application Files”) via the “Add/Remove Programs” page in the Control Panel. Certain empty cache folders may also remain on your machine after uninstallation of the Application Files and can be deleted manually.

#

i dont think SI's will be massively different

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As this thread has shown, a lot of people were not aware of the laws, that is something that should definitely be looked at by these companies and the government.

It could easily be taught in schools. There are more and more computer classes in primary and secondary schools. Teaching law in relation to software installation should be part of the courses.

So children can see your point that a TV license is the same as being forced to have internet connections and use Steam so you can play a video game by law. Right pal, real show of intelligence there I'll give you that... :thup:

Regardless of whether you have an internet connection. The EULA still applies. For any software. Not just video games.

Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. If children are playing the video game the parents should be aware of the EULA pertaining to the game and adhere to it.

That's why we're at this point. Because people blatantly and openly defied EULAs and software companies suffered heavily for it.

Apparently there are more people playing Football Manager that pirate the game than people that actually pay for it!

That's something to think about.

So if that was you and someone was ripping off your software - would you not seek a way to put a stop or even delay it?

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I love that all these people are saying that they won't tolerate Steam so won't be buying FM, but will instead be buying x, y or z instead, which require Steam, Origin or some more heinous DRM to be installed as well. Welcome to 2012, people, like it or not.

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In respect to licences...

You can't sell a suit and still wear it. You can't download a suit. You can't stick a suit in a machine and have an identical copy a few minutes later. You can't broadcast a suit and you can't pick up a guitar and play a suit or walk down the street whistling a suit. You can't damage or delete a suit, then reinstall it and have it in the same condition as it started. Software is a totally different concept.

The minute you install software, it exists in more than one place - so you have the ability to copy it legally in order to use it. Since you can copy it, the only way to define theft is by limiting where it can be copied. That's all a licence does. If you don't have that limitation, piracy doesn't exist and one copy can be use by anybody that wants it. That means developers make no money, which means no more software - so you've gone from free market to no market.

But you can patch a suit. 3 times in the first 6 months of ownership (if it is particularly badly made) :-)

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Actually it wasn't a perfectly legal transaction. When you brought the game you paid for the license for you and you alone to play it. When you gave it to a friend or resold it that broke the EULA agreement even if you uninstalled it and never played it again.

The market for pre-owned games is actually a grey area legally and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point regulation comes that that restricts it is some way. Possibly where the owner of the IP of the game (in this case SI/Sega) gets paid a small percentage of any resold game by those companies like Game or HMV who do pre-owned games.

The other possibility is that games companies sell licenses for the game for pre-owned copies of the game and even multi-user licenses for those who buy one copy of the disk and install it on multiple computers with the intent of more then one person playing it at a time. I very much doubt that something like that is currently workable with Steam.

What is your basis for this statement? Game shops sell used console games all the time, and at the very least 10 years ago I recall used PC games being sold at GameStop/EB type stores. I highly doubt major retailers like that would have been engaging in illegal business right out in the open.

I actually just uninstalled FM2011 and gave it to a friend of mine this weekend. You're saying this was illegal?

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But you can patch a suit. 3 times in the first 6 months of ownership (if it is particularly badly made) :-)

You can also wash and burn a suit.. quite hard to do with software ;)

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I love that all these people are saying that they won't tolerate Steam so won't be buying FM, but will instead be buying x, y or z instead, which require Steam, Origin or some more heinous DRM to be installed as well. Welcome to 2012, people, like it or not.

Certainly not speaking for all the nay-sayers, but i think the timing of the announcement is one significant factor of this reaction.

It came veeeery, very late. IMO i believe that it should've been the very first announcement.

Certainly caused my initial reaction. I don't agree with the decision, but that's just the way it is.

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What is your basis for this statement? Game shops sell used console games all the time, and at the very least 10 years ago I recall used PC games being sold at GameStop/EB type stores. I highly doubt major retailers like that would have been engaging in illegal business right out in the open.

I actually just uninstalled FM2011 and gave it to a friend of mine this weekend. You're saying this was illegal?

Not if you have uninstalled the game first

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Installing Steam is simple. It's non-obtrusive. And easy to do. Read a bit about Steam, installing and playing games in offline mode.

You might actually like it?

It is actually simple. I find it obtrusive as I need to have it in the background (be it on-line or off-line, the latter being less stable) EVERY time I'll want to play FM. Yes it is easy to do. I've read more than a bit about steam, including their subscriber agreement and privacy policy and didn't like it one bit. If you like steam and find it useful, great for you. I wouldn't want you to stop using it and do what I do. I just want another option like I always had.

I would accept an actual ONE TIME activation with steam or any other software, but I can't accept being forced to keep that external software forever on my pc and using it to run the game EVERY time. Plus I can't accept to risk (even it's a slight risk) my privacy with a 3rd party software I don't want, I don't need and I don't trust.

nothing new really, still enough to prevent me from buying FM12.

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Actually it wasn't a perfectly legal transaction. When you brought the game you paid for the license for you and you alone to play it. When you gave it to a friend or resold it that broke the EULA agreement even if you uninstalled it and never played it again.

The market for pre-owned games is actually a grey area legally and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point regulation comes that that restricts it is some way. Possibly where the owner of the IP of the game (in this case SI/Sega) gets paid a small percentage of any resold game by those companies like Game or HMV who do pre-owned games.

The other possibility is that games companies sell licenses for the game for pre-owned copies of the game and even multi-user licenses for those who buy one copy of the disk and install it on multiple computers with the intent of more then one person playing it at a time. I very much doubt that something like that is currently workable with Steam.

I think it more likely there will be regulation restricting what can be put in an EULA. If EULA's were enforceable I think we'd have seen a lot more action from companies who use them, instead they are taking the DRM route.

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The difference is you agree to this when you install the game, when you click yes to the terms and conditions, next time i would suggest reading them if your unsure where you stand. I'm not bothered about the rest of your post i was merely pointing out the law because you did not seem to know it, the rest of that post is for another thread and another time.
1010101010
See the above.
Software EULA has been in existence for a very long time. It's nothing new. Most people just don't seem to know they buy a license to use the software, not the software itself.

I buy a TV and I still have to buy a license. But why do I? It's my TV surely I can put whatever I like on it?

Here's one for Kriss ;) I bought a car - why do I need to buy a license to drive it? (and yes you used to be able to just sign a form and buy a license in the yesteryear)

Even with your Windows or Mac - you've got a EULA. With every font on your computer. Every piece of software. Every image. Every video. Everything is for you to use under a license with terms of use laid out.

Don't buy games if you disagree with the terms. You keep acting as though people are continually forcing you to do things against your will. You're right, most of us live in a free democracy, and you are free to choose not to buy something if you disagree with the principles of the manufacturer.

EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

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EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

I expect they're covered by contract law though. So a civil issue not criminal if you break the EULA.

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EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

I never said they were, no idea why you quoted me.

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EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

It's a contract though. Don't recall anyone saying they were laws?

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I thought it worth copying this from another thread just to demonstrate that Steam does have benefits, in this case to a huge number of people.

"Already perordered it from STEAM for myself and as a gift to my friend. The only 'fast and painless' option here (Ukraine) - otherwise you have to rely on postal service (couple of weeks delay) or shipment of Russian version to local shops (months of delay).

Thanks SEGA and SI for making the game available for former USSR in STEAM since last year! No need to go to London for a copy:lol:"

Something else that would benefit a huge number of people is SEGA sorting out it's distribution network and making sure the game is available on disk, at the same time, in all countries.

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It's a contract though. Don't recall anyone saying they were laws?

Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.

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Something else that would benefit a huge number of people is SEGA sorting out it's distribution network and making sure the game is available on disk, at the same time, in all countries.

There are all sorts of things out of their control which contribute to that being a shambles, also retailers who have it early release it early regardless of any agreement.

I dont envisage that ever improving much tbh.

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Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.

You do sign it. You tick the box that says "I agree to these Terms and Conditions" you can't install it until you do tick it.

Whether it's legal or not is up to the courts to decide.

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Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.

You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.

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You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.

Well there could be ambiguous terms. Like using the words "maybe". If that's in a EULA a lawyer will tear that apart in a second.

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I don't think he meant 'not legal' as in illegal, but 'not legal' as in not legally binding.

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Hardly a contract. Did you sign it? Did you get it notarized? Dont think so.

Its just something lawyers wrote to keep them busy. Half of the stuff in there is not legal anyway.

It might not be the case in Slovenia, but in English law an actual physical signature isn't necessarily required to agree to a contract.

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Unless any of us are lawyers we can't really comment on the legally binding things in EULAs. It would be serious misinformation for anyone reading here. And none of us, unless you are a lawyer, would be equipped to dispute the terms in a EULA.

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This thread is going off the rails a bit, consider this a redirect;)

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I am at Post #3300 on page 33. the last 68 posts have been from the same 4 or 5 people repeating the same thing over and over. They have done it throughout the thread and I suspect they will continue for as long as the thread is open, adding nothing.

So, I would ask the moderators, is it what they express, or how often they express that "what", that would result in this?:

He's expressing it repetetively over page after page, with nothing new for several reams (figuratively) and as a Mod I've decided he's getting too much air space, okay?:)

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I am at Post #3300 on page 33. the last 68 posts have been from the same 4 or 5 people repeating the same thing over and over. They have done it throughout the thread and I suspect they will continue for as long as the thread is open, adding nothing.

So, I would ask the moderators, is it what they express, or how often they express that "what", that would result in this?:

Difficult to quantify tbh:D been using rule of thumb and general perception of irritant factor up to now, although as this thread will (hopefully) be superceded by a proper Steam FAQ thread soon we've let people ramble on a bit more recently.

I'd hope that your pointing this out might persuade people to try for a bit of originality though;)

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Yes, i'm skimming the thread and glazing over it. Can someone perhaps offer a brief objective summary of the main substantive arguments and facts so far?

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There are all sorts of things out of their control which contribute to that being a shambles, also retailers who have it early release it early regardless of any agreement.

I dont envisage that ever improving much tbh.

Neither do I, why would they when they have the digital download route. But eggs and basket are two words that spring to mind.

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EULA's are a set of terms and conditions laid down by individual companies, they are not the law.

This is why the whole conversation about the law doesn't make sense at all. If the government came out and said "you need a license (like the TV license issue) to play a video-game" then for sure I would get one. If the government went out and said "by law you need internet connection and Steam to play video games" then I probably would - but this is NOT the case. The whole argument regarding laws doesn't hold water for the pro-movement.

I know that the last stand argument is going to be "if you don't like the new set-up then just don't buy it". I am sure SI is thrilled to have that projection of their company policy thrown out to the public in this manner because it is going to do wonders for their sales...

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This is why the whole conversation about the law doesn't make sense at all. If the government came out and said "you need a license (like the TV license issue) to play a video-game" then for sure I would get one. If the government went out and said "by law you need internet connection and Steam to play video games" then I probably would - but this is NOT the case. The whole argument regarding laws doesn't hold water for the pro-movement.

All I can say is :rolleyes: nobody is arguing that is the case. You clearly have no idea about software licence agreements.

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Neither do I, why would they when they have the digital download route. But eggs and basket are two words that spring to mind.

I don't think digital only is very likely for a long time to come, but I don't think the distribution of hard copy will ever be properly tied down, as I said even if Sega get their bit right there are plenty of other links in the chain(s) that don't.

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Yes, i'm skimming the thread and glazing over it. Can someone perhaps offer a brief objective summary of the main substantive arguments and facts so far?

You will save youself a lot of time if you start on page 30 post#2942.

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The way it is in Ireland, you must have a TV license if you have any TV in the household, regardless if it's in working condition or not, as it's deemed repairable.

But just so you know, they are changing this to a Media License, so if you have a computer or radio, or any form of communication, including internet, you must get this Media License.

Similarly with Football Manager, you have a single license with terms and conditions. Whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not. That's just fact.

And the other fact is, you need Steam to Authenticate the installation, so that SI can be sure that Licenses they sold in good faith are not being redistributed and used by 2 or more people.

You need Steam to play FM12. Most of the posts at the beginning were about how "poor Steam is", which were mostly unfounded. With a handful of people with genuine concerns.

Again, if your min specs meet FM12 requirements, and your machine will run FM12 - then it will definitely be able to handle Steam.

For those without an internet connection, they will have to jump through hoops to get Steam installed and authenticate the game. That's very unfortunate.

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You sign it digitally by clicking ok, out of interest which parts are not legal, i would highly doubt any company could put anything in there that wasnt legal.

I have never seen an EULA that requires a digital signature. All ive seen so far is check this box to proceed type of EULAs.

Cant be bothered to read one now and point out the blatantly silly things. Just read one once and you will see there are plenty of things in there that law allows you to do. Besides there is only one EULA and hundreds of different countries and states with different laws.

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All I can say is :rolleyes: nobody is arguing that is the case. You clearly have no idea about software licence agreements.

Your right, we haven't been talking about laws...

Think of Steam as the TV license in that situation, you buy a TV and you MUST have a TV license to be lawful, you buy FM you MUST have steam to be lawful, Steam is your license to use the product, only, ullike a TV license, its free.
I don't think your making any sense in all this.

The EULA is part of a law that states you cannot re-sell a PC game after you have installed it on your computer, nothing about having an internet connection. SEGA have decided in order to enforce the EULA, amongst various other things, that you must use Steam to activate and authenticate their product, unfortunately Steam requires an internet connection to activate the first time. There are other options of course, but SEGA have decided this is the way they are going this year. They are following suit of most major game companies who have also tried to enforce the EULA.

No.. but when you buy a TV you ARE forced to pay for the license.. ;)
Basically yes, Same as if you buy a TV you have to buy a licence if you want to watch television broadcasts on it.
They are abiding by the rules of governments though, otherwise the existence of a EULA would be illegal.

Maybe you should start standing up for the little man and take all the major game developers to court over your belief that a software licence agreement is illegal.

Its not about fighting for anyone, its about the law, we dont write the laws, we are only passing on the information you seem to be missing. Ok the TV one is better than the car anaolgy, you buy a TV or anything that can recieve a TV signal then you must have a TV license, even if you watch only one channel that is not related in anyway to the BBC you must have a TV license. Where is your free choice then?

:rolleyes:

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Your right, we haven't been talking about laws...

Again, nobody is saying we haven't been discussing laws. Yet another straw man, just like the majority of your arguments have been.

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This whole thing is crazy.

when you buy software it comes with a license, that is an agreement, a contract, that you install it for yourself and nobody else.

FM was being sold on and being used by the person that sold it on. Clear breach of contract.

Steps being taken now to try prevent this, delay it or whatever.

You must use Steam and have an internet connection to activate your copy of the game.

If you don't like Steam then that's your business, you can't play FM12.

If you don't have an internet connection you'll have to be resourceful and come up with a plan. Laptops are easier to bring to internet cafe, hotel etc. Desktops not so much, so perhaps a friend, or someone in work, or a relative? Sort something out for yourself if you really want to play it.

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Okay, I am fully read up (although I do type slowly) so I can carry on with why I came here.

Where Is The Steam FAQ?

and for that matter where is the FAQ, Helping & Advising People Without A Suitable Home Internet Connection?

For now I will concern myself with the former.

SI/SEGA must have taken into account the fact that they were likely to alienate and lose some existing customers by taking this activation route. Their company, their decision.

Various reasons have been given why previous customers won't be buying FM12 due to SI/SEGA's decision, ranging from principles to a personal dislike of Steam/Valve.

What SI/SEGA haven't done is take care not to upset or alienate previous customers whose concerns are based on the lack of information about Steam.

It is an utter disgrace that there wasn't a complete Steam FAQ posted at the same time as the announcement about Steam activation, and only incompetence or contempt can be put forward as an excuse for there still not being one. The announcement thread contains a lot of misleading and biased information, and if SI/SEGA extend the consideration, which led them to 'not take this decision lightly', to making sure everyone has the correct information, they may find they won't lose quite so many customers or goodwill, now or in the future.

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It is an utter disgrace that there wasn't a complete Steam FAQ posted at the same time as the announcement about Steam activation, and only incompetence or contempt can be put forward as an excuse for there still not being one. The announcement thread contains a lot of misleading and biased information, and if SI/SEGA extend the consideration, which led them to 'not take this decision lightly', to making sure everyone has the correct information, they may find they won't lose as many customers or goodwill, now or in the future.

Or the more likely case of Steam having over 30 million users and they probably did not expect so many people to not know how it worked. Do not attribute things to malice which can be put down to under-estimating things. But I do fully agree that there should be a sticked FAQ about Steam and how it works.

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FAQ

https://support.steampowered.com/

New To Steam

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7141-OPGX-5121

Although I did say at the very start the there should a thread about Steam and what it is an all other related info.

Clearly SI didn't take into account that some people can't research these things themselves? And the people that didn't have the right information or seeked information came on here flaming Steam without justification, not bothering to ask questions. Some did, went off happy with the info they got.

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Lets just say this is the last time I am looking in this thread. Specially when some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not saying any names but I know one that is here, that is just here for the banter and will argue against anything that is said. Thus dragging the debate on longer than it should and not leaving this space for people with genuine issues.

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Lets just say this is the last time I am looking in this thread. Specially when some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not saying any names but I know one that is here, that is just here for the banter and will argue against anything that is said. Thus dragging the debate on longer than it should and not leaving this space for people with genuine issues.

It really does block out those who are actually looking for help.

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FAQ

https://support.steampowered.com/

New To Steam

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7141-OPGX-5121

Although I did say at the very start the there should a thread about Steam and what it is an all other related info.

Clearly SI didn't take into account that some people can't research these things themselves? And the people that didn't have the right information or seeked information came on here flaming Steam without justification, not bothering to ask questions. Some did, went off happy with the info they got.

A Steam FAQ is being prepared (nearly complete I understand) it may be they wanted to see what came from this thread so they could make it as complete as possible in relation to FM12, but as has been pointed out Googling Steam will get anybody the basic info and if they have the time and inclination to type whole pages on here about it then inability to read it is hardly a justification for not doing so?

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Thanks Kriss. That is reassuring to know. I'm sure SI will be able to give all the facts about Steam.

And I hope it's a locked sticky thread for info only - like the blogs are done.

:thup:

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I forgot my analogy: If you want to know all about a BMW you don't go to a Ford showroom:D

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I forgot my analogy: If you want to know all about a BMW you don't go to a Ford showroom:D

Just spat my coffee - nice one Kriss :lol:

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Completely off topic, but once you get FM12 you simply must manage in Argentina Division 2, the refs wear the most lurid pink I've ever seen:eek:

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Completely off topic, but once you get FM12 you simply must manage in Argentina Division 2, the refs wear the most lurid pink I've ever seen:eek:

This is meant literally by the way, it's in really small writing on the back of the box, anti-piracy measure.:D

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