David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Fill your boots then i guess, i'm sure another 30 pages of this will make a huge difference to the outcome for FM12.

It will - it takes attention away from the game proper, and the loss of goodwill is never a good thing. It is easy to lose goodwill, and hard to regain it.

All it suggests is that those who think it is a good idea simply aren't doing a good-enough job at convincing those who think it is a bad idea.

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Some of the comments here are a bit far fetched.

I myself don't really see the problem. The only case for an argument is if you do not have internet at home.

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Delay piracy, is alright with me.

Released pirated before it was shipped, i get that too.

Larger percentage have pre-ordered the game....no problem understanding that.

How many people? No idea what so ever.

But none of that was the answer to the question(s)

The quote said "....be able to play it .

I was just wondering what the logic in, what was in the quotation marks, was.

Just didn't get it. That's all ;)

Well that was poorly worded, my apologies on that.

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An opinion, not a statement. And perhaps poorly worded.

The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.

The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

If that was the case then surely you would make the game download only and not allow prerelease downloads? As soon as the game has gone gold the pirate's could get their hands on the game if they have contacts wherever the physical copies are being made. Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

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Some of the comments here are a bit far fetched.

Which ones?

I myself don't really see the problem. The only case for an argument is if you do not have internet at home.

In your opinion. Remember that the world isn't made up of 6 billion Menions.

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:D I'm honestly not having a go, it just made me chuckle.

i know :( must-resist-post button!!!

Fair play adding all those quotes in tho, i couldnt be bothered with that effort!! :)

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Why are you accusing dissenters of trolling? We're not trolling - we're raising our concerns. Just as we are entitled to do so, just as you are entitled to argue against those concerns.

Like it or not, there are two sides to an argument and you don't win by calling the other side a "bunch of trolls".

Both sides are trolling & that has been the case for more than a day now, nothing has progressed, I've seen factually inaccurate information & statistics mentioned by both parties in this thread in an attempt to add validity to their point of view.

The fact that SI/Sega guys are not actively involved in this thread should speak volumes, their decision is made, it will not be changed so I see no point in the same people making the same points over & over again.

I understand that people need to have a forum to put their points across but there has little or no new content in this thread for quite some time, in the absence of an authority figure bringing things to a conclusion I feel it is incumbent on the community to allow things to calm down.

The reason it goes round in circles is that the dissenters can't be convinced.

The burden of proof is always on those positing the change. The question "why is this good for me?" needs to be answered, rather than "why do you think it is bad?"

All that needs to be answered is: I don't use/like Steam. Why is it beneficial for me to be forced into using Steam?

There is no immediate benefit to you for moving to Steam only activation, this is a commercial product & based on the figures that SI/Sega have their revenue will benefit from this.

The planned long term benefit to you is that you might have a better product should that product remain in development due to the increase revenue hopefully resulting in an increase development budget.

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i know :( must-resist-post button!!!

Fair play adding all those quotes in tho, i couldnt be bothered with that effort!! :)

I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?:D

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I really don't see the problem here. So you have to install another program to play the game. So what? Would you rather everyone be able to play pirate copies of the game? If they just said "You know what, download pirate copies of the game if you like. We don't mind losing all our paying customers" would that make you happier than them trying to stop piracy of the game and keep their business going. If I have to download a program which prevents others from playing illegal copies of the game, I don't mind doing so. It could be worse. It could have been a program we have to pay to use, or some obscure program that nobody has ever heard of. At least Steam is a well known and widely used program, which is reliable. For all the rage quiters, stop being so shallow minded. I bet the majority of you have never even used Steam before. It's nowhere near as bad as you all make out. Infact it's not bad at all.

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Well that was poorly worded, my apologies on that.

No need to apologize. It's easy to get caught up in the circle here :D

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On a different note, I'm no longer anti-steam. (I'm still against lack of choice.)

YAY finally someone who tried it!

We're all against lack of choice. But that lack of choice is put there as a control measure to delay piracy.

A lack of choice is due to a lack of options to prevent piracy, and that's for any software company.

So to delay this, they put in strict controls. Yeh it annoys some people. Some people won't be able to use it.

But as others have said - it won't stop the piracy. I just hope that people who do pirate the game are the ones that can't legitimately use Steam. And that when they do get get internet access they do buy it.

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I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?:D

I have the exact same problem!! Folk in the office must think i write a lot of big emails :D

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I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?:D

I used to look forward to work as 8 hours of solid FML playing:D

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If that was the case then surely you would make the game download only and not allow prerelease downloads? As soon as the game has gone gold the pirate's could get their hands on the game if they have contacts wherever the physical copies are being made. Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

I've thought about that before. It had crossed my mind when this post went live and I read it and thought that immediately.

I've said from the start that I don't think this control measure of Steam only activation will actually stop/delay/prevent piracy. But SI, Sega and Steam all seem to think it will delay it enough to boost sales and stop people cancelling pre-orders. And the number they are hoping for is to stop a quarter of the people pirating the software, which they reckon will double the sales. And that's the figure they came up with, they have the stats.

FM12 will access Steam, people might be put off to a hacked version if it has the possibility of causing their Steam account being banned?

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I'm at work, what do you expect me to do to pass the time? Work? What am I some kind of mug?:D
We can swap places if you wish, I'm still looking for work after being made redundant.

Not all bad though, my FM career save has moved along quite nicely.

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I used to look forward to work as 8 hours of solid FML playing:D

I'm just wandering if they'll get suspicious when I upgrade my work PC F.O.C on release day? I need more than 1GB of RAM.:rolleyes:

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Equally what's to stop them downloading it from steam prerelease and getting to work on it straight away?

Very obvious if you think about the key component.

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If SI are doing it the same as other games, pre-release piracy will be stopped probably by not having the game exe on the disks. That would be a day one "patch" download. So even if pirates got hold of the disks before release, there would be no exe for them to crack.

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We can swap places if you wish, I'm still looking for work after being made redundant.

Not all bad though, my FM career save has moved along quite nicely.

Sorry to hear that mate, happened to me 18 months ago. I just fell very lucky, and I'm in a profession where people who do my job are usually in demand. It's getting to the point where there's more workers than jobs now though.

Any way, getting a bit off track.

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One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often:D

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One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often:D

Hey, hang on now, I'm at work. I at least turn up. :D

Edit: read your post properly now.

I can type, but apparently not read.

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Both sides are trolling & that has been the case for more than a day now, nothing has progressed, I've seen factually inaccurate information & statistics mentioned by both parties in this thread in an attempt to add validity to their point of view.

The fact that SI/Sega guys are not actively involved in this thread should speak volumes, their decision is made, it will not be changed so I see no point in the same people making the same points over & over again.

I understand that people need to have a forum to put their points across but there has little or no new content in this thread for quite some time, in the absence of an authority figure bringing things to a conclusion I feel it is incumbent on the community to allow things to calm down.

SI and Sega are not required to post on these forums, and even if they have made their decision, we should still be entitled to air grievances. Even if something has been decided, it doesn't mean it will remain that way forever.

It doesn't matter if a thread goes round in circles - that's a sign that the dissenters can't be convinced.

There is no immediate benefit to you for moving to Steam only activation, this is a commercial product & based on the figures that SI/Sega have their revenue will benefit from this.

The planned long term benefit to you is that you might have a better product should that product remain in development due to the increase revenue hopefully resulting in an increase development budget.

False logic. Assuming revenue does increase, why is that a reason for me to buy FM12?

If I buy FM12, then revenue will increase by the assumption. If I don't buy FM12, then revenue will still increase by the assumption.

You aren't answering the question - what's in it for me?

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One irrefutable fact has been proven today thanks to remarkable keyboard skills and a bloke who admits he doesn't go to work to work, hats off to eddy for proving that milnerpoint talks too long, too loud and too often:D

Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that??? :D

Dont make me use another car analogy!

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Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that??? :D

Dont make me use another car analogy!

Kriss mentioned seat belts earlier.

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Is that a personal attack, can i report you somewhere for that??? :D

Dont make me use another car analogy!

Of course you can report me, guess where the report goes:D

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Of course you can report me, guess where the report goes:D

Im beginning to agree with lord rowell, something definitely does not fit here. :p

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@ x42bn6

There is nothing in it for you personally, end of story.

You may have noticed that I am one of those who is also not happy with the decision however I realised that constantly repeating my stance & demanding a reason why I should accept the decision Sega have made was futile. SI are now fully aware that a minority of the forum is unhappy with the decision & I trust they will take this on board when making plans for future releases, I seen no reason for the same old points to be trotted out by the same people unless they truly believe that he who shouts the loudest & longest wins the day.

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:confused:

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.

How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

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@ x42bn6

There is nothing in it for you personally, end of story.

And then you wonder why people complain, and why the thread is as long as it is.

There are a set of people who are unhappy at this decision, for good reason, and they are being told to accept it or "bugger off".

The attitude taken against those that are unhappy is rather shocking in all honesty... Go against the status quo, and get shouted at because they are happy, and you aren't.

You may have noticed that I am one of those who is also not happy with the decision however I realised that constantly repeating my stance & demanding a reason why I should accept the decision Sega have made was futile. SI are now fully aware that a minority of the forum is unhappy with the decision & I trust they will take this on board when making plans for future releases, I seen no reason for the same old points to be trotted out by the same people unless they truly believe that he who shouts the loudest & longest wins the day.

In reality, it is... If it is a sustained level of unhappiness, then it is more likely to raise concerns.

Concerns and complaints help the game's future quality. The more, the better. Complainants shouldn't need to employ self-censorship. If you have something to say, say it.

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:confused:

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.

How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

Facebook provides us with many useful capabilities in exchange for a loss of privacy. Just like any piece of software or service that isn't in the public domain.

Facebook is therefore seen as acceptable to the mainstream (but not to everybody, of course).

Besides, two wrongs don't make a right - "Facebook does it, so it's OK" is never a good line to trot out.

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It doesn't matter if a thread goes round in circles - that's a sign that the dissenters can't be convinced.

It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

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And then you wonder why people complain, and why the thread is as long as it is.

There are a set of people who are unhappy at this decision, for good reason, and they are being told to accept it or "bugger off".

The attitude taken against those that are unhappy is rather shocking in all honesty... Go against the status quo, and get shouted at because they are happy, and you aren't.

:thup: Well said

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:confused:

I wonder how many of you own Iphones, and installed Itunes and quicktime without a second thought.

How many of you use Facebook? thats not intrusive at all is it......

don't have any of them for that very reason.

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It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

I'm heading in that direction, my original concerns were related to the very annoying compatibility issues I suffered when I first installed Steam, after an exchanged of messages with someone who's opinion I trust & decided to install the latest client to see how things have moved on, so far so good.

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don't have any of them for that very reason.

So do you always buy CD's or are you not really a music buyer?

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So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help :D

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So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help :D

It's a good job your OCD isn't about spelling :D

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So I need to be in Steam to play the game everytime I play? I take it offline mode restricts doesnt use as much memory as online mode?

I have ACD abut whats open on my computer at any one time, this wont help :D

yeah in offline mode on my laptop, when the steam window is not open it uses 15mb or memory, window open about 110mb, online its a touch higher, about 18mb window closed.

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It's actually a sign that not ALL the dissenters can be convinced. Several people have already said that once they've read up on steam/installed it themselves they're no longer anti-steam.

Well, yes, but then again, everyone has different requirements to be convinced.

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Do we have to qualify why we respond?

No, but it would be nice if everyone did.

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It's a good job your OCD isn't about spelling :D

I'm dyselexic

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You're not;) it seems the obvious solution, there are very good reasons why they decided to go Steam only (at least this time round) I know most of those reasons but can't divulge them all.

The security and secrecy that surrounds the release of any new game is akin to that which existed in the cold war, so they say as little as possible and people are reluctant to talk at all in case they give something away (I'm not making that up)

You say it's about money, it is and it should be, but please note they're trying to increase profit by increasing sales and not by putting the price up (when did the price of FM last go up in real terms?)

They are not claiming that this will prevent piracy, but if you have any in depth knowledge of how piracy affects sales you'll start to realise why this approach has been effective for other titles and therefore is likely to be for FM.

As always it's on trial and if it's not effective, or better solutions appear it won't last, my feeling is that it will and that people need to come to terms with that.

As to the evils of Steam, it'll be problematic for a tiny minority and it's incumbent on Steam kicked along by Sega to resolve any issues, they have a good track record for doing so in spite allegations to the contrary.

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.

Mac users get more issues than PC users, well they do with almost any software, that's a fact because the support and investment devoted to Mac is proportional to it's market share in almost all cases.

The natural resistance to being told you must have something on your PC to play FM is totally understandable, it's a basic trait of human nature to resist doing anything you're ordered to.

I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them, most people who actually love FM will get over that and (like me) install Steam and forget they ever had concerns over it.

The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

I feel desperately sorry for those who actually will lose the ability to play FM but their numbers are infinitesimally small and as has been said the same situation is created by other things like increased minimum spec so it's not unique to this.

Thank you for this post Kriss. This is a balanced answer which shows both sides have valid viewpoints, though I still believe the defense has been rather dismissive.

I know you are not speaking on behalf of SI, but I wish we got the same kind of responses from them on this issue, which we used to do back in the day.

I personally will let this matter drop now. I have always been against the decision not because I hate Steam, but because this marks a direction away from the community that SI once had. This seems to be a sign that the community is now just a big pound sign. I always have felt the community has made the game what it is and often has been responsible for improving it. In the future I may well get FM12 if it appears the actual mechanics of Steam go well, but I will never feel the same way about the game creators of SI as I did before.

Thanks again Kriss.

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cd's or preferably vinyl

Can we end the CD analogies? I have Steam, but buy CD's rather than download music :D They're nearly as bad as the car comparisions.

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The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because we have intrusive stuff on our PC doesn't mean we should have other not-as-intrusive stuff on our PC.

Justify why this not-as-intrusive stuff is good.

I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them,

For non-Steam users, why is it good for them to be forced to register using Steam?

We're not looking for "it's not bad for you" answers - we're looking for "why is it good" answers.

The seat-belt analogy isn't meaningful since it's required by law in many countries, and there's a definite benefit in wearing a seat-belt (i.e. you are less likely to die in a crash).

A more apt analogy would be requiring to purchase your seat-belts from a favoured supplier whom you know will be a controversial option amongst some of your consumer base.

The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

You are suggesting it's an overreaction (the idiom cutting your nose to spite your face) to not install a game given legitimate concerns. If someone has privacy or security concerns over a piece of software, then it's not an overreaction to avoid it. It's a legitimate and cautious reaction and not cutting your nose to spite your face. Not everyone thinks like you - you have no right to say it's an overreaction, since not everyone has the same level of privacy and security concerns as you.

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At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

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At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

I think thi$ i$ a very hard que$tion...

That pretty much is the only reason I'd imagine.

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Justify why this not-as-intrusive stuff is good.

To the individual user looking at it short term, it is not good. However, the disruption was hoped to be minimal. To the company making the game, it is good. They have their reasons. They hope that these benefits for the company will help them to produce a better game. So no, x42bn6, if none of the points mentioned in the last 30 pages seem good, then there are zero benefits to you as an individual to install Steam. It was just hoped that there would be no to little negatives either.

At a huge risk of repeating myself....why must Steam stay active?, why was the "activate & remove" option not adopted (other that because Steam wanted it that way?

AFAIK tiger, that just isn't the way Steam works. An activate and remove technique is no better than the product key system, which evidently hasn't been working for SI/Sega. Steam double checks the authentication every time, thus adding an extra layer of security.

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