David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

really dont see what journalists have to do with this at all. In fact its utterly irrelevant to the rollout. This is why this thread should be closed, people seem more intent on point scoring and personal digs than anything else

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You said in post 2880 you deal with specialist journalists on a daily basis,, replying to my post 2876 which questioned your knowledge, which was my reply to your post 2872 that claimed your knowledge they were specialist journalists who had seen this many times before, which replied to my post 2869 about this issue in a journailstic context.

In short, you commented that they were specialist journalists and that you deal with them on a daily basis, hence you had better knowledge than us. That's quite a statement.

When I challenged your position in post 2888 re. a media position and incompatibility with the role as a moderator, you then say you don't work for SI and they're your mates. Which suggests to me that you don't have anything like the authoritative knowledge or insight you suggest.

This suggests to me that you're bluffing, you don't have anything like the knowledge or experience, other than your mates (your words) which destroys your neutrality as a moderator.

Yet you, more than anyone, have been carrying the fight for SI on this issue.

I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

Are you for real?

I'd suggest you do some research on privately owned forums to begin with, there's no requirement for neutrality and though we strive to observe democratic principles on here there's actually no requirement to do so.

This forum is the private property of Sports Interactive, read the terms of use and house rules before you start some kind of civil rights demo.

I'm not concerned whether you believe anything I say or not, I have no agenda and I'm permitted to express myself on here exactly as I want to, Moderators don't receive instruction from SI and we're not required to follow any party line.

Indeed you'll have seen some Mods express extreme displeasure over the Steam issue, I just happen to be happy with it in my FM player persona.

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really dont see what journalists have to do with this at all. In fact its utterly irrelevant to the rollout. This is why this thread should be closed, people seem more intent on point scoring and personal digs than anything else

No we don't want to close it, there are people with genuine concerns who deserve a place to voice them.

However people who do continue to use it as platform for petty point scoring in spite of the warnings will get short shrift from now on.

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I think that's not possible! technically i mean.

If you get activation with steam, their system needs to be always loaded in order to do the job. So what you are asking... it's not possible.

How about a downloadable patch which activates the game? Only way to get the game activtion patch is from Steam with the activation code provided in the box. Once you have the activation patch bye bye Steam.... I don't know how possible that is but a nice place to start. It may not be a perfect idea and i'm sure there are a few holes in it but forcing us into keeping that Steam-ing turd of a programme seems.... Stupid.

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funnily enough steam has never caused me an ounce of pain and ive been using it for years now

i genuinely have no idea what those having a meltdown about this are carrying on about

hopefully like most things in life, these people will bite the bullet and realise that all these terrible things they thought would/could/should happen, never eventuate at all....

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People who really enjoy FM will pay for it.

So more than 80% of those people playing FM don't really enjoy it? Moving to Steamworks has been shown to hugely increase sales in territories where software theft is otherwise rife.

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I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

Sure... because SI are going to let anyone moderate rather than people they know and trust :rolleyes:

These are SI's forums, just like FM is SI's game. They are free to do what they like with both. Just as you are as a consumer.

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I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people! :rolleyes:

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But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here:D

So suggesting that the companies involved are more interested in making money than their actual customers whilst trying to keep a veneer of caring about their customers is some conspiracy theory.

I think in the world of marketing and consumerism that is hardly a conspiracy theory. Most of us are just disappointed that SI have headed this way. But perhaps we just have to accept that would happen and probably since the split is has become more obvious every year.

Some good points have been raised that if piracy is the reason for this the logic is possibly flawed. Perhaps this has been more about making more money....hardly a conspiracy.

Paradox has been discussed as a company who openly shares its research into the idea and says DRM made no difference to their sales...conspiracy? They have increased sales based on focusing on their customers.

I would rather Sega/SI just openly said....we know this will annoy some of you...but in reality we will make a larger profit long term. Instead they just try to bluff their way through it. Too much like politicians for my liking :) I guess some of us remember when CM was kicking along and we all felt part of the ride, part of the community, respected, not just the "consumer". Old school perhaps.

The objective of Steam hardly needs to be questioned,get more customers, make more money, and get information that will help them make more money....not much for the conspiracy theory.

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I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people! :rolleyes:

I think the general idea is it won't stop or slow down piracy. The arguments to explain this are all over the board. There is no warped logic in this statement. Also not one person has suggested it is a good idea to download pirated software and nobody has said they will.

Thanks for your valuable contribution.

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I just have to laugh at people complaining about having to d/l a 3rd party program and saying it'll increase piracy. If I'm not mistaken, a Steam Emulator is still a 3rd party program, and a much less safe one at that. Complaining about a legitimate, safe program, but willing to download a possibly trojaned/keylogged program which really could swipe data, etc?

The warped logic of some people! :rolleyes:

I wont be downloading any emulator/cracked game. I'll carry on my fm11 game. I'll probably reinstall the original champ manager so I can reminisce about how the game was before it sold its soul to sega.

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Everyone has downloaded illegally in there time, people on this post, mods, people from SI Games. I have, as a 10 year boy, tape to tape with my Spectrum games, two tape recorders wired together. Borrow my mates Now 7 on vinyl, and tapping it on to tape, background noises and all, cutting out the Bros songs. As kids we don't know or understand what is wrong, as we get older we do and human nature for so many means we carry on doing it. As an adult I never had my xbox or playstation chipped, as I hated the thought of my warranty and the like being messed up. On my PC I've never used a torrent or the like, as I hate the thoughts of virus and other stuff getting on my computer.

Sega, as with all games companies have the right to protect its property, whether you like it or not. People moaning about Steam or any other activation need to understand, that without protection and a game easily cracked and available on the internet, would mean PC games would become a thing of the past or end up being pay as you play. No one wants that. Fact is, if you asked people would they download if given the chance, the day before release for free, most in here would! Would I. As that 10 year old kid with my trusty tape recorder, yep I would, but as a 39 year old father of 1, i will be putting my box of FM12 next to every copy of FM and CM released by SI, Sega or domark. (i hope a box version will always be available). So stop whining, and just install steam and stop making excuses or threats of not playing as nearly all will be.

Time for CM93/94 on my phone now, right what's the score of match 2 on page 30.

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People moaning about Steam or any other activation need to understand, that without protection and a game easily cracked and available on the internet, would mean PC games would become a thing of the past or end up being pay as you play.

Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late ;)

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But Steam is also easily cracked. Some companies sell their game on Steam and on their own site for digital download without copy protection. They don't go out of business, they have research saying that DRM has little effect on their sales numbers.

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I wont be downloading any emulator/cracked game. I'll carry on my fm11 game. I'll probably reinstall the original champ manager so I can reminisce about how the game was before it sold its soul to sega.

Funny you mentioned that. I dug out my 03/04 game and played last night. Partly because I was fondly reminiscing about the community we had back then. We were CMers :) It was fun actually. Made me look at FM11 and wonder about the direction of the game as well....lots of bells and whistles but basically the same. The only thing about 03/04 that bugs me is that slow 2D :)

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Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late ;)

Steam won't stop piracy your right, in truth nothing will, people will always find a way. You say its for profit, well isn't that what SI and Sega meant to be doing? Aren't they allowed to feed themselves. Silly comment in truth. Fact is why are people moaning for, dont get it? We have a new FM game, steam is easy to use and free, the patch downloads will be hassle free, and the game is still near enough the same price as last year! All it is, is people being akward or not happy unless they are moaning about something.

If you want to moan about something, then do so when the game comes out and the AI managers are still useless, and don't use the young players correctly, or buy loads of useless players for no reasons!

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Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

Nobody seems to be able to say why they can't offer these people an alternative? The only reason not to offer an alternative is it may affect this new found profit.

Your post is about 30 pages to late ;)

The only person talking about profit is you.

SI have said no money exchanged hands with Steam. It's about digital rights management.

From the Wiki page relating to Steam

Steam is a is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform. It has minimal digital rights management for software by providing "Custom Executable Generation" for executable files that are unique for each user, but allow that user to install the software on multiple computing devices via Steam or through software backups without limitations. The user is required to have started Steam while connected to the Internet for authentication prior to playing a game, or have previously set up Steam in an "offline" mode while connected online, storing their credentials locally to play without an Internet connection.

What it is is making sure that the person playing the game has authenticated it through Steam.

Nothing more.

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Steam won't stop piracy your right, in truth nothing will, people will always find a way. You say its for profit, well isn't that what SI and Sega meant to be doing? Aren't they allowed to feed themselves. Silly comment in truth. Fact is why are people moaning for, dont get it? We have a new FM game, steam is easy to use and free, the patch downloads will be hassle free, and the game is still near enough the same price as last year! All it is, is people being akward or not happy unless they are moaning about something.

If you want to moan about something, then do so when the game comes out and the AI managers are still useless, and don't use the young players correctly, or buy loads of useless players for no reasons!

I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boycotting this release.

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I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boosting this release.

And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

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The only person talking about profit is you.

SI have said no money exchanged hands with Steam. It's about digital rights management.

From the Wiki page relating to Steam

What it is is making sure that the person playing the game has authenticated it through Steam.

Nothing more.

The profit will come when they are not even selling a boxed version in the future. This is probably the prelude.

Eugene, you have stated you are a fanboi on another thread, which is fine. So you are obviously going to defend Sega against anything that is being said here. I am a fan of FM. They are making it impossible for some people to play the game and offer no alternative. Why are you and others against them getting an alternative?? Nobody seems to want to answer this. The only answer given was that it would cost them mony (hence the profit argument). In response people than repeat the stop piracy argument, or leave poor old Sega alone. Just makes me scratch my head that people are willing to defend the company and say tough luck to the gamer. It has shown me how people think nowdays.

When things happen that stop you playing a game or make you question a companies motive (which we should always do) we will see different responses here I am sure.

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So suggesting that the companies involved are more interested in making money than their actual customers whilst trying to keep a veneer of caring about their customers is some conspiracy theory.

I think in the world of marketing and consumerism that is hardly a conspiracy theory. Most of us are just disappointed that SI have headed this way. But perhaps we just have to accept that would happen and probably since the split is has become more obvious every year.

Some good points have been raised that if piracy is the reason for this the logic is possibly flawed. Perhaps this has been more about making more money....hardly a conspiracy.

Paradox has been discussed as a company who openly shares its research into the idea and says DRM made no difference to their sales...conspiracy? They have increased sales based on focusing on their customers.

I would rather Sega/SI just openly said....we know this will annoy some of you...but in reality we will make a larger profit long term. Instead they just try to bluff their way through it. Too much like politicians for my liking :) I guess some of us remember when CM was kicking along and we all felt part of the ride, part of the community, respected, not just the "consumer". Old school perhaps.

The objective of Steam hardly needs to be questioned,get more customers, make more money, and get information that will help them make more money....not much for the conspiracy theory.

aaron, that post was in relation to his views on my integrity, nothing to do with the Steam issue at all;)

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And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

you may not see them as geniune but you are not the all seeing eye. Few people had any concerns about psn before it was hacked but there were some, they stopped looking foolish pretty quickly.

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God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"

Irate poster - "no its about profit"

defensive poster - "no its about piracy"

Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

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I suggest you try reading the thread, it has been explained numerous times by numerous people why they aren't happy and why many will be boycotting this release.

I've read enough, saw the same arguments when Civilization moved to Steam, and truth is it has been miles better for it. Still people moan, its this country we are always moaning about something!

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aaron, that post was in relation to his views on my integrity, nothing to do with the Steam issue at all;)

Sorry Kriss. Read it out of context :). Guess I am getting the impression from people that we are acting like crackpots because of asking for an alternative method :)

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The profit will come when they are not even selling a boxed version in the future. This is probably the prelude.

Eugene, you have stated you are a fanboi on another thread, which is fine. So you are obviously going to defend Sega against anything that is being said here.

Where did that come from?

I am not defending anyone at all. You're explanations about SI, Sega, Steam collaboration as a profit making scheme between the 3 is deluded.

No money exchanged hands at all. According to SI/Sega.

I am a fan of FM. They are making it impossible for some people to play the game and offer no alternative. Why are you and others against them getting an alternative?? Nobody seems to want to answer this. The only answer given was that it would cost them mony (hence the profit argument). In response people than repeat the stop piracy argument, or leave poor old Sega alone. Just makes me scratch my head that people are willing to defend the company and say tough luck to the gamer. It has shown me how people think nowdays.

When things happen that stop you playing a game or nmake you question a companies motive (which we should always do) we will see different responses here I am sure.

it is not impossible to play the game. You just download Steam and play the game. Couldn't be any simpler.

No there are no alternatives at the moment.

I am not against them getting an alternative. But they have said they have thought about this for nearly 3 years. And this is the best option presented to them.

Now please tell me at what point in the 3 years of discussions and decision making how all of a sudden that after a week they announced that FM is only playable through activation on Steam - that you some how have a new fangled idea that somehow miraculously you have conceived of that the top decision makers in SI Sega and Steam have not conceived of yet?

They're motive? Make money. Sell more games. Protect their industry.

That's the motive. That's the steps they've taken. Like it or lump it.

yeh if you can't use Steam then you're out of luck, you can't play the game. This is actually something SI/Sega/Steam have thought about. I'm sure they came to this conclusion a long time before you did. And I'm sure they sat around mulling it over and thinking about how it affects their game.

And I'm sure they had all the necessary data in front of them to make an informed decision from over 3 years of thinking of a way to secure their software.

You'll find that FM09 only 4% of people activated via Telephone. And the rest by internet.

Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it.

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SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"

Irate poster - "no its about profit"

defensive poster - "no its about piracy"

Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

defensive poster: "Hey I love Sega. Read my other posts..I admit to loving them biasedly.... and screw the game players. Why should Sega care anyway. Yeah,,,screw you all. An alternative...why? I don't need one...other people do...well tough luck...I love Sega....Do whatever you want Sega because baa baa baaa,

Just thought i would expand that for you Milner. ;) Don't try to suggest that the naysayers have been out of order with weak arguments and those for have been convincing.

Why not offer an alternative????

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God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"

Irate poster - "no its about profit"

defensive poster - "no its about piracy"

Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

Milner, everyone passes data, your bank, your insurance company, sites you visit, its the world we live in. Even Sony had customers data nicked. No one is driving customers away, most moaning on here will buy and install, customers will be still be here as long as the product is made to a high standard.

God in 5 weeks time the same people will be moaning about SI releasing a faulty product, to many bugs, demanding patches, like there human rights have been abused!

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And a lot of those reasons were completely unfounded.

Only a few people raised what I see as genuine concerns.

Completely agree with this!

Apart from a small (very small) amount of users that may have problems because the lack of an internet connection. And even this, it's only apply with people with desktops, because if they install the game in an laptop this issue can be solve very easely.

The other issue, could be in terms of patching the game exclusively by steam. This could raise a couple of questions.

All the other issues, and particularly the "3rd party program"... well... i think that its important that a person had a "personnal quest" in their life! A goal... a reason to fight for! But common... Steam!?!?! Why dont you spend all this energy in defending human rights or something like that?

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According to SI/Sega.

There endeth the lesson. I think you just summed it all up.

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it." - and you accuse others of making up stuff.

Anyway. I give up. It is now only fanbois defending the decision (because only they could at this point) so a logical argument is finished.

See what happens in the future but FM11 will do me for the next few years by the look of it :)

Happy gaming all :)

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There is no alternative, you have to accept that, steam is the only option, it really is that simple, not one of the post in this 30 page thread will change that, all you guys are doing is going over and over and over and over and over the same points and winding up Kriss.

Why they have not offered anything else is irrelevant, they have not and will not offer anything other than steam this time. Only the sales figures and steam feedback will change anything for FM13.

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God is this still going round in the same circles?

SEGA/SI - "this is about piracy"

Irate poster - "no its about profit"

defensive poster - "no its about piracy"

Irate poster 2 - "shut up you dont know what your talking about, before long SI will be watching us through our monitors and will know the colour of our wallpaper, not only that, but they will be sharing this info with every home decorating firm in the UK"

Not quite the theme but close, i honestly thought i was one of the worst for constantly repeating myself over and over but you guys are taking it to the extreme now.

We all now know Paradox are the only games company in the world with any morals and probably going to be the only games company left in the next 5 years because they dont protect their games, everyone else will drive their customers away. We all know that steam ruins your computer whilst stealing your personal information with the view to broadcasting it around the world in various podcasts, But can we all accept this is happening? Maybe try and help people unsure about steam??

My god, milner, what a load of horse pucky. :thdn:

If you are going to address the issues then at least try to highlight the genuine concerns. We all know that if SEGA/SI tells you that you need to swallow a 13" mumbasa that you will, we are not disputing that - but you can't expect that everyone feels the same way...

It's funny that you project this image and at the same time tell people who have concerns to just lie down and except this (another way of saying shut up). Totally unfair judgment on your part...

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There endeth the lesson. I think you just summed it all up.

"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it." - and you accuse others of making up stuff.

Anyway. I give up. It is now only fanbois defending the decision (because only they could at this point) so a logical argument is finished.

See what happens in the future but FM11 will do me for the next few years by the look of it :)

Happy gaming all :)

Stop calling me a fanboi? That is arrogant and rude.

And I'm not making anything up. If you read the original post it's all there. Or at least a different post by Miles, that millnerpoint posted.

The game will be available to much larger percentage than before through Steam. I think most of their sales came through Steam last year anyway.

And that's just fact.

You won't get an alternative this year. And nothing will change that.

Unless Steam activation is a complete and utter failure.

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"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it."

I can't find the logic in this statement.

How can a larger percentage than before be able to play it by taking away options?

Would be the largest percentage if the "regular" option still had been available, in addition to Steam....no?

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Milner, everyone passes data, your bank, your insurance company, sites you visit, its the world we live in. Even Sony had customers data nicked. No one is driving customers away, most moaning on here will buy and install, customers will be still be here as long as the product is made to a high standard.

God in 5 weeks time the same people will be moaning about SI releasing a faulty product, to many bugs, demanding patches, like there human rights have been abused!

Oh i know its madness, the funny thing is you would think this is the first kind of anti steam thread ever online, many other games have already gone through this and prospered, FM will be no different. The press dont care about threads like this they have seen them all before. SI will not lose out on this, after the hysteria dies down and these people see everyone else enjoying the game they will change their minds, the people making add ons will continue because they love doing it and the community will contiune to thrive, then come patch day the madness will start all over again and Miles will be the worlds worst person again. Its a funny world in these SI forums.

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Stop calling me a fanboi? That is arrogant and rude.

Sorry, I thought you had said so yourself: "That's cos I feel a lot of them are prima donnas that seem to think that SI or Sega owe them." - Didn't mean it to be rude.

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Ummm...did you read any posts. The argument is way beyond that. It has been acknowledged by everybody that Steam does not stop piracy! Steam is therefore being used for another reason. It seems that profit would be the logical choice. So it appears profit is kicking some consumers in the teeth.

I thought this had been covered about 12 pages ago?

The aim isn't to stop piracy, but rather to delay it. Miles' posts way back when said that as soon as pirated copies become available online, they see pre-orders dropping off. If it can be delayed by a month, a week, even just a couple of days, the hope is that those people who want to play the game instantly but would usually download it are prevented from doing so, thereby forcing them to purchase the game.

I fully sympathise with those people with unreliable internet connections, or the Mac users who appear to have issues with Steam using massive resources, but it would appear that whatever figures Sega have suggest that more sales can be raised by doing this than would be lost to those customers who they expect to leave the series. I would imagine no alternative is being offered because if you only have one method of encryption, you can delay the time it takes to be hacked the longest. You couldn't exactly tell the customers that you'll let them activate their product by alternative means once the game has been pirated.

And please, excuse my ignorance, but how does switching to Steam ensure a greater profit? FM12 is available from the same retailers as FM11 at the same prices.

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Far too many they're, there & their errors recently, I think people need to start calming down. :D

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It's funny that you project this image and at the same time tell people who have concerns to just lie down and except this (another way of saying shut up). Totally unfair judgment on your part...

I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

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Oh i know its madness, the funny thing is you would think this is the first kind of anti steam thread ever online, many other games have already gone through this and prospered, FM will be no different. The press dont care about threads like this they have seen them all before. SI will not lose out on this, after the hysteria dies down and these people see everyone else enjoying the game they will change their minds, the people making add ons will continue because they love doing it and the community will contiune to thrive, then come patch day the madness will start all over again and Miles will be the worlds worst person again. Its a funny world in these SI forums.

The loss of goodwill should never be underestimated in the long-run. Plus it doesn't matter what the press say - FM is generally not in the press anyway.

Besides, two wrongs don't make a right - why does SI insist on doing things that put people into an outrage? Should it not consider the possibility that not upsetting customers is actually a good thing for once?

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Just out of interest, if some get the game a day or so early, will they be stopped from playing it to the release date by a steam activation?

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I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

Oh, no, we can continue to complain about Steam. Just as we have the right to do so. There is no need to push your viewpoint upon others. You think the only good thing that can be done is to inform others on Steam - others quite frankly don't care. It doesn't make you right, nor the others. The whole point of a forum is to get multiple points of view and debate.

Nothing more.

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"Yeh a small percentage of people will not be able to play it. But a much larger percentage than before will be able to play it."

I can't find the logic in this statement.

How can a larger percentage than before be able to play it by taking away options?

Would be the largest percentage if the "regular" option still had been available, in addition to Steam....no?

An opinion, not a statement. And perhaps poorly worded.

The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.

The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

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I'm not telling anyone to shut up or that they have to agree with me, but come on 30 pages later and your still making the same points without getting anywhere. Your concerns are known, SI are not daft and they can read, truthfully they will have known everything said in this thread long before anyone posting through of it. All that is happening now is people are becoming abusive nothing more can be gained in this thread except to try and help people with steam and give them proper info on the software.

And what points have I been raving about for over 30 pages? Again you are projecting things that just don't do justice, I haven't been here for 30 pages... :mad:

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One side of this argument needs to cease posting for this thread to stop going round in circles, as it's harder to quiet a descenting voice may I suggest that the 'what's your problem with Steam' people take the moral high ground & step away for a moment.

Eventually those who are against the idea will drift away when they realise that no-one is taking the bait.

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Oh, no, we can continue to complain about Steam. Just as we have the right to do so. There is no need to push your viewpoint upon others. You think the only good thing that can be done is to inform others on Steam - others quite frankly don't care. It doesn't make you right, nor the others. The whole point of a forum is to get multiple points of view and debate.

Nothing more.

Fill your boots then i guess, i'm sure another 30 pages of this will make a huge difference to the outcome for FM12.

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Sorry Kriss. Read it out of context :). Guess I am getting the impression from people that we are acting like crackpots because of asking for an alternative method :)

You're not;) it seems the obvious solution, there are very good reasons why they decided to go Steam only (at least this time round) I know most of those reasons but can't divulge them all.

The security and secrecy that surrounds the release of any new game is akin to that which existed in the cold war, so they say as little as possible and people are reluctant to talk at all in case they give something away (I'm not making that up)

You say it's about money, it is and it should be, but please note they're trying to increase profit by increasing sales and not by putting the price up (when did the price of FM last go up in real terms?)

They are not claiming that this will prevent piracy, but if you have any in depth knowledge of how piracy affects sales you'll start to realise why this approach has been effective for other titles and therefore is likely to be for FM.

As always it's on trial and if it's not effective, or better solutions appear it won't last, my feeling is that it will and that people need to come to terms with that.

As to the evils of Steam, it'll be problematic for a tiny minority and it's incumbent on Steam kicked along by Sega to resolve any issues, they have a good track record for doing so in spite allegations to the contrary.

The objections to installing it are actually irrational given what it does because you already have more intrusive things compulsarily on your PC and because if your PC is good enough to run FM it's good enough to run it via Steam with no noticeable performance issues.

Mac users get more issues than PC users, well they do with almost any software, that's a fact because the support and investment devoted to Mac is proportional to it's market share in almost all cases.

The natural resistance to being told you must have something on your PC to play FM is totally understandable, it's a basic trait of human nature to resist doing anything you're ordered to.

I mentioned seat belts but there are many other examples of people hating to be told to do something even though they actually know it's good for them, most people who actually love FM will get over that and (like me) install Steam and forget they ever had concerns over it.

The few who cut off their noses to spite their faces will soon not have any new game to play, bar niche ones because this is the way it's going to be, that's their choice.

I feel desperately sorry for those who actually will lose the ability to play FM but their numbers are infinitesimally small and as has been said the same situation is created by other things like increased minimum spec so it's not unique to this.

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The idea of Steam is to delay piracy.

Last year or the year before the game was released via pirate parties before the game shipped. This resulted in pre-orders (lots of them) being cancelled.

This year they have said that more people have pre-ordered the game (a much larger percentage) since they announced it would be available through Steam authentication.

How many people do you think use Steam for other games? And they would risk having their account suspended or banned if a hacked game was found through Steam... I'd imagine.

The use of Steam will delay the pirates from hacking the game. Maybe by an hour. Maybe by a day. Maybe 3 days?

Fact is more people have pre-ordered this year. And coming up to 21st October they don't expect pre-orders to be cancelled as has happened in the past.

Delay piracy, is alright with me.

Released pirated before it was shipped, i get that too.

Larger percentage have pre-ordered the game....no problem understanding that.

How many people? No idea what so ever.

But none of that was the answer to the question(s)

The quote said "....be able to play it".

I was just wondering what the logic in, what was in the quotation marks, was.

Just didn't get it. That's all ;)

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One side of this argument needs to cease posting for this thread to stop going round in circles,

The reason it goes round in circles is that the dissenters can't be convinced.

The burden of proof is always on those positing the change. The question "why is this good for me?" needs to be answered, rather than "why do you think it is bad?"

All that needs to be answered is: I don't use/like Steam. Why is it beneficial for me to be forced into using Steam?

as it's harder to quiet a descenting voice may I suggest that the 'what's your problem with Steam' people take the moral high ground & step away for a moment.

There's no "moral high ground" in debates. You either are in or out.

Eventually those who are against the idea will drift away when they realise that no-one is taking the bait.

Why are you accusing dissenters of trolling? We're not trolling - we're raising our concerns. Just as we are entitled to do so, just as you are entitled to argue against those concerns.

Like it or not, there are two sides to an argument and you don't win by calling the other side a "bunch of trolls".

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I did not mean to offend you at all, sorry if it came across that way, my internet mannerisms are not always the best! :)

Heath is right tho, ill leave it here, i have said MORE than my fair share on this topic. Happy steaming everyone!!

Followed by.....

who made you god around here??
if i compare you banning him to buying a car will you forgive me??
i wonder who it was, Laz maybe?? LOL
Can i ask one quick thing, i said i would leave this but, if you are bothered why dont you sign up for a free hotmail account, put in false info, and buy the game on disk, where is the danger then? Steam will know nothing about you or have access to any of your privy info.
nah you will have to have the computer.....
yes but its not going through you computer looking for passwords and log in details, it will gather info on your gaming habbits, system info and prob not a lot else.
hahaha poor Kriss, i bet he cant wait till release day
*waits for inevitable analogy*

Kriss conspires with the devil clearly.

Wheres Waldo? :p
God is this still going round in the same circles...
There is no alternative.....
Oh i know its madness, the funny...

:D I'm honestly not having a go, it just made me chuckle.

On a different note, I'm no longer anti-steam. (I'm still against lack of choice.)

I downloaded it last night. Redeemed my log-in details I used for FM2009 very easily, and test downloaded FM2009. It surprised me at how much better it is than last time I used it. Very easy to use. It also is very good how even though my FM2009 was a boxed copy, I could still download & install via steam (I uninstalled and lost the disc before I moved house).

Don't want to sound like a fanboy but I was really impressed and would urge others to give it a try and not to cut their nose off to spite their face.

If you love FM then it really seems to be a very minor inconvenience, if an inconvenience at all. I understand the moral standpoint people are well within their rights to take, but I personally will not be doing without FM for this reason.

I just feel sorry for those without internet connection available to them.

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