David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

[quote name='tigerhgrrrrrr']It is worth adding that the nay sayers in this thread are not being negative for fun, they still remember the inexcusable debacle of2008, thats the problem. For those that dont remember the whole activation process failed due to various reasons, basically it was a badly thought out plan that is being foisted off on us again this year. One of the saddest moments from that day of shame was when a female Sega staff memeber who was drafted in to reply to the whirlwind of emails from angry customers was subjected to what can only be called dogs abuse. At that time I was angry & frustrated with SI and I sympathised with the frustrations of all (even those being so anti social, though there was no excuse for being so unreasonable) and the thought came to mind, "How did the CM/FM fans games come to this?"[/QUOTE]

What problem? Oh, you mean the was it a 1 or l - or maybe you meant the was it a o or the 0 problem?...aarrggghhh, don't get me started... :D

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[quote name='Kriss']The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I wasnt aware of that. But why must we always have Steam running?

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[quote name='Kriss']Actually I did to Miles, not for the first time either:D so don't be paranoid, I'm consistent in that respect whichever side of any particular fence people are sitting.[/QUOTE]

I promise you I'm not paranoid. I like consistency though. If you wanted to be consistent in your approach, you should have made the comment wider, though I appreciate you've made it now :) . Though I do disagree with you, I personally think that long posts can help to add detail and depth to a case, whichever side they are on.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']Just in case they've been forgotten, a reminder of when we had a democratic right to vote here.

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274804-Poll-on-Steam-activation[/url]

^^^

pigfacemonkeyman's original poll, now closed.

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274914-POLL-STEAM-for-FM-2012[/url]

^^^

pauly1616's follow-up poll, also closed.

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274959-Poll-Yes-to-Steam-or-No-to-Steam-you-decide[/url]!

^^^

Here was a 3rd poll that barely drew breath, after 3 votes, then closed.

If you view the results, they're not exactly thumping endorsements of SI/SEGA policy.

As I have said before, very disturbing that these have been closed. I understand that the moderators want to keep the discussion in one place but I'm sure posts could be moved, threads could be made "poll only" or they could even have supported a new thread, early in this discussion, that was "poll only". That none of these options occurred makes me conclude that SI/SEGA don't want a situation where the level of support / opposition is quantified.[/QUOTE]

From the threads you linked and from the horse's mouth in those threads the forum members are irrelevant.

Nice one SI.

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[quote name='Loversleaper']What problem? Oh, you mean the was it a 1 or l - or maybe you meant the was it a o or the 0 problem?...aarrggghhh, don't get me started... :D[/QUOTE]

Think of it as an additional "mini game" thrown in for free. :-)

Actually none of this is funny in any way.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']I promise you I'm not paranoid. I like consistency though. If you wanted to be consistent in your approach, you should have made the comment wider, though I appreciate you've made it now :) . Though I do disagree with you, I personally think that long posts can help to add detail and depth to a case, whichever side they are on.[/QUOTE]

Actually I don't object to the original long posts particularly, it's just that people insist on quoting the bloody things in full every time:D

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[quote name='Kriss']The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.[/QUOTE]

Weird that you always have to dig to opt out of these raping trawl of personal data. If you trust ticking the boxs, reading reams actually opts you out (I mean who checks).

Toe the party line Kriss. ;)

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[quote name='Kriss']The data gathering is optional, not mandatory, check the Steam site if you want specific details.[/QUOTE]

as a rule, that's true. But from their privacy policy:

"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site."

What is "certain"? How do you know at some point FM12 won't be one of those "certain products"?

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[quote name='Bantam Searley95'][b]So what about the people that don't have internet? I do, obviously, but it will lose customers that way.[/b]

Can we install the game on more than one PC? If so, great, as I have other family members who would want to play it.[/QUOTE]

This is a significant concern of mine.

I'm also concerned, the way the recent discussion on this thread is going, is that a compromise of one-time activation by Steam may end up being a future solution - but that's no use to people without internet access, which in turn is a genuine equity issue.

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[quote name='Kriss']Actually I don't object to the original long posts particularly, it's just that people insist on quoting the bloody things in full every time:D[/QUOTE]

If a person in a prominent role i.e David SEGA, or Miles Jacobsen, or for that matter David Cameron, Ed Milliband, Nick Clegg, whoever, says / writes stuff, then detailed scrutiny is a part of living in a liberal democracy. If you're in that position, you have to accept that, for all the rewards you have for that, you'll be under examination.

I'm not suggesting Miles = the Prime Minister but the point is the same.

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[quote name='nessi']as a rule, that's true. But from their privacy policy:

"While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site."

What is "certain"? How do you know at some point FM12 won't be one of those "certain products"?[/QUOTE]

It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.

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[quote name='Kriss']It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.[/QUOTE]

Like somebody way more massive than steam (google) and their street cars did?? How are google doing after getting caught out?? just fine. who cares right?

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[quote name='Jibby123']Like somebody way more massive than steam (google) and their street cars did?? How are google doing after getting caught out?? just fine. who cares right?[/QUOTE]

Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.

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[quote name='The Welsh Lad']People who buy the game and dont have/can't get access to the internet are not getting blamed for anything, they are just an unfourtunate section of people that has a result of can't play FM12

But, to ignore parts of the post that explains why SI and SEGA have made this decision and make your own conlusion that people without internet, people who cant afford it etc. are being blamed or victimised is obsured. To be frankly honest.[/QUOTE]

To be frankly honest, I never said that the people who can't afford it are being victimised :confused:. But what can't you understand? Let's look at this for a moment:

There is a problem with piracy, so what should be done? Of course, let's slap the people that don't have internet connections because obviously they are the ones doing all the pirating. Frankly, as long as you are not one of the unfortunate section of people then everything is just dandy...

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[quote name='Kriss']It may be is the key, the default situation is that it isn't, if there was a reason for them to require it for any particular individual they would have to request it of that individual (or rather they'd say you can't have access without providing it)
I don't of know any case when they have but I'm pretty sure that proviso is made to cover some kind of exceptional circumstance.[/QUOTE]

The default situation is whatever steam desires, especially considering section 9 of their subscriber agreement. The fact is with this kind of amibiguous policy steam CAN make the data gathering a mandatory feat. If you think it's unlikely to happen, you MAY BE right. But you don't know for sure.

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[quote name='nessi']The default situation is whatever steam desires, especially considering section 9 of their subscriber agreement. The fact is with this kind of amibiguous policy steam CAN make the data gathering a mandatory feat. If you think it's unlikely to happen, you MAY BE right. But you don't know for sure.[/QUOTE]

They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did:)

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?

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If I were a journalist.

I've probably received or am about to receive some kind of heads-up / material re. the release of FM12.

If I'm a half-decent journalist, I'll go visit the community forums to see how the fans feel about the new release, judge the level of excitement, how the producers interact with their fans and so on.

What I see, and then conclude, will influence my decision as to a. whether to give any publicity at all and then b. what kind of publicity to give

If you were a journalist visiting these forums, now, what would you think?

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[quote name='Kriss']Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.[/QUOTE]

You're a puppet of the "evil imperialist regime" clearly :D

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[quote name='Kriss']Not quite sure what you're meaning there tbh, for Steam to take any info you have to opt in, there's no comparison.[/QUOTE]

Meaning I don't trust anyone to have personal info of mine. Even if I have to opt out if I dig deep, and then I have no way of checking.

It's [b]my[/b] responsibility to stop them spying on me?? And that's fine with you?? goggle bucked that gaining info on peeps living in a house and are doing fine out of it.

I just want to buy a freaking computer game, and not being computer literate I don't want to read a shedload of text and try to work it out how I decide to stop being spied on to play football manger.

And according to the terms and conditions somebody posted here....if I don't like it I can't play a game bought off a 3rd party. Steam decide which.

SI should be paying you. Or steam.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']I've probably received or am about to receive some kind of heads-up / material re. the release of FM12.

If I'm a half-decent journalist, I'll go visit the community forums to see how the fans feel about the new release, judge the level of excitement, how the producers interact with their fans and so on.

What I see, and then conclude, will influence my decision as to a. whether to give any publicity at all and then b. what kind of publicity to give

If you were a journalist visiting these forums, now, what would you think?[/QUOTE]

They're specialist journalists, they've seen this many times before, they are of the industry so wouldn't make much of it at all tbh.

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[quote name='Jibby123']Meaning I don't trust anyone to have personal info of mine. Even if I have to opt out if I dig deep, and then I have no way of checking.

It's [B]my[/B] responsibility to stop them spying on me?? And that's fine with you?? goggle bucked that gaining info on peeps living in a house and are doing fine out of it.

I just want to buy a freaking computer game, and not being computer literate I don't want to read a shedload of text and try to work it out how I decide to stop being spied on to play football manger.

And according to the terms and conditions somebody posted here....if I don't like it I can't play a game bought off a 3rd party. Steam decide which.

SI should be paying you. Or steam.[/QUOTE]

They don't require personal information, all you need to provide is an email adress and I'll ask again, how many organisations are currently taking info from your computer?

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[quote name='Kriss']They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did:)

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?[/QUOTE]

Am becoming aware. Because others do it, it's fine.

Now SI are party to that. By making you go online to play a game.

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[quote name='Kriss']They have no reason to make it mandatory, and judging from the comment in this thread alone they'd be committing business suicide if they did:)

Just out of interest, are you aware how many organisations are currently taking information from your computer?[/QUOTE]

again, you MAY BE right. Or not...

I'd say at least three, but we have a great mutual respect :p What I know is steam won't get any!

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[quote name='Kriss']They're specialist journalists, they've seen this many times before, they are of the industry so wouldn't make much of it at all tbh.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Also, Kriss, as an aside, we need some form of cumulative quote facility here (asking you this as a moderator :) ) , because all three posts here need to be together. It's fine when the forum isn't busy as people will be able to mentally link the sequenced posts, but when its busy it falls apart. At least allow cumulative quoting of, say, 3-4 posts.

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[URL="http://www.sega.com/fm2012/?t=EnglishUSA"]http://www.sega.com/fm2012/?t=EnglishUSA[/URL]
Still no mention of steam. :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Jibby123']Am becoming aware. Because others do it, it's fine.

Now SI are party to that. By making you go online to play a game.[/QUOTE]

SI took the same info Steam are asking for with FM10 and FM11, Steam aren't demanding it they're asking you to give it if you want to.

Microsoft, Your ISP, your AV provider and others just take it without giving you that option.

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[quote name='Kriss']They don't require personal information, all you need to provide is an email adress and I'll ask again, how many organisations are currently taking info from your computer?[/QUOTE]

They don't do it for my benefit Kriss.

I was able to find what I wanted way before being mined to have future marketing pushed my way. Tailored for my needs according to them.

Screw it. You've convinced me. SI can go whistle for my £30 this year, not just because of steam but the attitude of you and SI with the lording of three wise monkey thinking of hear no evil see no etc etc. One loyal customer from the 90's gone for a while. Besides, am enjoying FM11. :)

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']I don't agree with your conclusion.

Also, Kriss, as an aside, we need some form of cumulative quote facility here (asking you this as a moderator :) ) , because all three posts here need to be together. It's fine when the forum isn't busy as people will be able to mentally link the sequenced posts, but when its busy it falls apart. At least allow cumulative quoting of, say, 3-4 posts.[/QUOTE]

As I deal with them on a daily basis you really ought to agree with my conclusion:D I can honestly claim to know better than you on this one.

I'll ask the forum admins on the other one, V Bulletin is a horrible piece of kit and the facility is probably already there but unrecognisable.

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When FM11 was in publicity mode last year, I'm sure, unless my memory is failing me, that Miles was blogging on sources external from here - I think the Daily Mirror was one. My memory also tells me that this was well before the release date.

We're now about a month from the release date.

Where is the external publicity? I did a bit of an internet search and can't find much. I could be wrong so please someone help me out if I am, seriously. :)

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[quote name='Kriss']SI took the same info Steam are asking for with FM10 and FM11, Steam aren't demanding it they're asking you to give it if you want to.

Microsoft, Your ISP, your AV provider and others just take it without giving you that option.[/QUOTE]

We used to have to tag war crime graves and the perpertrators used the line that the serbs, muslims or croats were doing it worse, or as well somewhere else. Not to compare, but see my point? no probably not.

This is going nowhere, i just want to play fm. not fm12 this year so thanks. helps me escape from all that. :D I'm done.

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oh well guess ill be not getting it this year as i dont have internet at home as use my phone... and not gonna pack up pc move it to a friends house and install some 3rd party **** that i do not want on my pc... that will be 4 of us living in the same house not buying

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[quote name='Jibby123']We used to have to tag war crime graves and the perpertrators used the line that the serbs, muslims or croats were doing it worse, or as well somewhere else. Not to compare, but see my point? no probably not.

This is going nowhere, i just want to play fm. helps me escape from all that. :D I'm done.[/QUOTE]

No, no, I think you're right (so, no need to go anywhere): two wrongs do make a right... :brock:

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[quote name='Kriss']As I deal with them on a daily basis you really ought to agree with my conclusion:D I can honestly claim to know better than you on this one.

I'll ask the forum admins on the other one, V Bulletin is a horrible piece of kit and the facility is probably already there but unrecognisable.[/QUOTE]

Re. the first point, I just hope, for your sake, that you're not getting sucked in and / or manipulated. It happens. Be careful, seriously. The media lionise and demonise.

Thanks for your acknowledgement of the 2nd point. If the facility isn't there then then, speaking as a person who runs a board, has admined on a large board, I'd say this one might need to move on elsewhere if this level of configurability isn''t available.

By the way, as you deal with them every day, are you some kind of media officer for SI? I'm wondering how you have to deal with them every day?

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hahaha poor Kriss, i bet he cant wait till release day :)

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@ kriss

Hang on a minute.

A. You're a moderator.

B. You deal with the press every day, presumably on behalf of SI/SEGA.

Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality? If not, it should be openly disclosed. How does all this square?

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']Re. the first point, I just hope, for your sake, that you're not getting sucked in and / or manipulated. It happens. Be careful, seriously. The media lionise and demonise.

Thanks for your acknowledgement of the 2nd point. If the facility isn't there then then, speaking as a person who runs a board, has admined on a large board, I'd say this one might need to move on elsewhere if this level of configurability isn''t available.

By the way, as you deal with them every day, are you some kind of media officer for SI? I'm wondering how you have to deal with them every day?[/QUOTE]

I don't work for SI, they're all my personal friends from long association as I began by Beta testing FM way back and then was heavily involved with FML for five years, if you knew them as I do (and in particular Miles) you'd be a mite embarrassed about some of the things you've implied.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']@ kriss

Hang on a minute.

A. You're a moderator.

B. You deal with the press every day, presumably on behalf of SI/SEGA.

Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality? If not, it should be openly disclosed. How does all this square?[/QUOTE]

I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here:D

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[quote name='Kriss']I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

[B]But feel free to start a conspiracy theroy, it's all the rage here:D[/B][/QUOTE]

Did you kidnap the Lindbergh baby? ;)

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Did you kidnap the Lindbergh baby? ;)[/QUOTE]

No but I know where Arkle is:D

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*waits for inevitable analogy* :D
Kriss conspires with the devil clearly.

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[quote name='Kriss']No but I know where Arkle is:D[/QUOTE]

Wheres Waldo? :p

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[quote name='boppa']unwired does 25gb for $50. not too bad for wireless.. im sure other deals are comparable[/QUOTE]

I looked up unwired isn't this the same as the mobile USB type of broadband, as I do have a PS3 also so if I'm spending on broadband I want it to work on the console also?

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You know Lord Haw Haw was right, there's no real publicity out there about FM12 that I can find, last year the Mirror blogged it, they have done all those different national blogs this year but not much else that I can see :confused:

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Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.

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[quote name='Lord Rowell']Surely if you're a moderator here, you have to have neutrality?[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding? Just to quote the great Dirty Harry: "oppinions are like _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , everyone's got one"

[quote name='Kriss']But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here:D[/QUOTE]

I still like the one where Steam staged the meltdown in FM2008, kind of like CarGlass paying rogue kids to bash car windows accross town.

(Damn, stop mentioning those damn cars...)

I know, I know - I, too, am sorry, Kriss :D

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[quote name='Chad_']Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.[/QUOTE]

Steam isnt a resource hog. May i ask what specs your computer has?

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[quote name='Chad_']Well, there goes my intended purchase of FM 2012. I had been looking forward to it, too, but I have an older computer I've used for this game and I'm afraid it couldn't handle another resource hog in Steam and still be able to run the game anywhere near like I like it.

Looks like FM 2011 will be my last in this series, or at least until clearer heads prevail and those who make the game stop making the game's customers work harder to enjoy a product rather than making things easier for what is, lest they forget (and they have) an entertainment and leisure product.[/QUOTE]

I'm running FM on a 7 year old compaq lap top through Steam on my wireless network, the 3D aint to hot but otherwise it runs perfectly.

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Will the pirates now suddenly buy the game? I doubt it. People who really enjoy FM will pay for it. Those who don't really care about SI or the game will pirate it. Loyal fans are the only ones suffering from this decision to activate using Steam. But I suspect Steam are acting as a strategic partner to either SI or Sega and therefore SI will benefit which is a good thing.

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[quote name='Kriss']I don't work for SI, they're all my personal friends from long association as I began by Beta testing FM way back and then was heavily involved with FML for five years, if you knew them as I do (and in particular Miles) you'd be a mite embarrassed about some of the things you've implied.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Kriss']I don't deal with the gaming press on behalf of SI, I know many of them because I played FML with them when they were invitees to the Alpha and Beta game worlds, the friendships out lasted FML sadly.

But feel free to start a conspiracy theory, it's all the rage here:D[/QUOTE]

You said in post 2880 you deal with specialist journalists on a daily basis,, replying to my post 2876 which questioned your knowledge, which was my reply to your post 2872 that claimed your knowledge they were specialist journalists who had seen this many times before, which replied to my post 2869 about this issue in a journailstic context.

In short, you commented that they were specialist journalists and that you deal with them on a daily basis, hence you had better knowledge than us. That's quite a statement.

When I challenged your position in post 2888 re. a media position and incompatibility with the role as a moderator, you then say you don't work for SI and they're your mates. Which suggests to me that you don't have anything like the authoritative knowledge or insight you suggest.

This suggests to me that you're bluffing, you don't have anything like the knowledge or experience, other than your mates (your words) which destroys your neutrality as a moderator.

Yet you, more than anyone, have been carrying the fight for SI on this issue.

I think you are in a compromised position now. I also am very concerned that you have been allowed to moderate here, given your relationship, in your own words, with Miles et al.

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