David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Because once you do not have the piracy argument there is no reason to not allow other options. People are still using the piracy argument so I keep refuting it :)

You can't refute that it impacts piracy. You can refute that it won't stop it entirely (which nobody is saying), but you can't refute that it doesn't have an impact at all.

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There are so many hacking experts on these forums, i had no idea this was the case, damm SI are in trouble...............................

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Bad example...The 2D and Commentary Only options are still available for those who own PC that cannot handle 3D. There is no similar option for those who cannot/will not use Steam.

The system minimum requirements have changed, should they never have changed thus excluding people who still have 10 year old PCs?

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I don't hate anyone. I just don't understand moaning about something that doesn't impact your ability to play the game.

Oh my god...you are causing me to bite my tongue...how can you say that...how do you know everyone's situation?????..it does affect SOME peoples ability to play the game.

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I bet you're mad that shops don't sell the latest charts on vinyl any more too?

my dad still cries over his betamax collection so i can sympathize..........

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They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

No, it is just another outlet.

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You can't refute that it impacts piracy. You can refute that it won't stop it entirely (which nobody is saying), but you can't refute that it doesn't have an impact at all.

Yes, I can. I guess you have not searched for any game released in 2011 so far. It has been pirated.

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Oh my god...you are causing me to bite my tongue...how can you say that...how do you know everyone's situation?????..it does affect SOME peoples ability to play the game.

It affects people with no internet connection.

Who else does it affect?

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I think that's not possible! technically i mean.

If you get activation with steam, their system needs to be always loaded in order to do the job. So what you are asking... it's not possible.

This begs the question, Why choose steam?. I still don't understand the reason behind it.

Are steam better at anti-piracy than anyone else? General consensus says no.

Are you risking alienating long term customers with this decision? Yes.

Are there other anti-piracy measures that are available where you don't have to keep an online store's software on your machine forever to play your game? Yes.

So, Why steam? Am I missing something? I'm curious as much as anything because I've already openly said I'll still be buying it.

All I've read from SI is, "steam is better than it used to be" & "We are using Steam's online registry to combat piracy".

The only sensible conclusion is what I said on the last page.

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Bad example...The 2D and Commentary Only options are still available for those who own PC that cannot handle 3D. There is no similar option for those who cannot/will not use Steam.

Ok, i'll give you another....

With that in mind, then SI should never evolded the game. In fact FM2012 should be the same as CM03/04, apart from the data update. That way, we still could play the game with our old PC's! :)

Things change, and people cannot criticize SI for manking mandatory an internet conextion to activate the game! In a couple of years you probably must have a internet conexion in order to PLAY the game.

Thing changes, evolved... same with computer games! Ad if you want the continue playing them you (or your PC, MAC) mus evolved as well!

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This begs the question, Why choose steam?. I still don't understand the reason behind it.

Are steam better at anti-piracy than anyone else? General consensus says no.

Are you risking alienating long term customers with this decision? Yes.

Are there other anti-piracy measures that are available where you don't have to keep an online store's software on your machine forever to play your game? Yes.

So, Why steam? Am I missing something? I'm curious as much as anything because I've already openly said I'll still be buying it.

All I've read from SI is, "steam is better than it used to be" & "We are using Steam's online registry to combat piracy".

The only sensible conclusion is what I said on the last page.

Where you here for FM09's release? The non-steam activation software caused threads 20 times longer than this one (and not with the same 5 people going round in circles)

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This begs the question, Why choose steam?. I still don't understand the reason behind it.

Are steam better at anti-piracy than anyone else? General consensus says no.

Are you risking alienating long term customers with this decision? Yes.

Are there other anti-piracy measures that are available where you don't have to keep an online store's software on your machine forever to play your game? Yes.

So, Why steam? Am I missing something? I'm curious as much as anything because I've already openly said I'll still be buying it.

All I've read from SI is, "steam is better than it used to be" & "We are using Steam's online registry to combat piracy".

The only sensible conclusion is what I said on the last page.

it would appear so, i will re-post what Miles said.

I was planning on responding to this thread yesterday afternoon, but whilst on the way to the studio I was involved in a car crash (no one hurt, which is good) and was a bit shaken up, so not the time for me to be replying in the calm manner that I wanted to to this thread.

This was always going to be an emotive subject. Any form of copy protection is. There's no conspiracy theory about SEGA posting about it though - they normally do so, as it's a publishing thing, not a development thing. It is their job to come up with recommendations in this area, but we were consulted about the various options available. This is by far and away the best one that was presented to us, from a user perspective, a business perspective and a protection perspective.

No one from SEGA or SI would say that using the system that we are means that the game will not be cracked at some point. It's bound to be. But with the exception of FM2009, every version of FM has been available to pirate before the retail release. During that few days, every year, retail see pre-orders being cancelled. Every year retail see pre-orders not being collected, even those with "free gifts" and where deposits have been paid. If it can be made that those people who legitimately buy our games this year get to play it before those that are pirating, that will be a good thing. If it can be that way for a few months, weeks, or even days, after that release, we do believe it will make a big difference.

We are also not saying that we believe that if the game isn't cracked, all of those previous pirates will buy it. I do not believe that 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale. The vast majority of people who pirate it won't pay the money for it, certainly not at launch. But I do believe that a proportion of them will do. And those extra sales, for however long the game can be protected, will lead to an increase in dev budgets, and therefore better, or more, games for all.

Dave gave some stats out earlier which were slightly inaccurate. It's not the case that there are 3 people playing pirated copies of FM for every 1 legitimate customer - there are more than 4 people playing pirated copies of FM for every legitimate customer. And to the question on whether that takes into account people who have bought who play with CD cracks, it doesn't matter, as even if every single person who bought FM played with a CD crack, there would still be 3 people playing pirated versions for each 1 legitimate customer who has decided to install a 3rd party, illegal in the majority of countries, CD crack.

There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market. That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games. The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games, whatever the protection is. And the replayability factor of FM is huge, so second hand isn't something that has affected us in a major way at all.

One big thing that was taken into account when looking at the various systems available was how many people, given the choice with FM11 of whether to install the game via Steam or without Steam, chose to install via Steam. The results surprised me, with the majority of people deciding to install through Steam.

There've been questions about what I think of the reaction, given that it's 17 pages so far. Well, obviously I'm disappointed when anyone says they aren't going to buy our next release, and I doubt there's anything that I'll be saying here that will appease those people. But the reality is that those being negative in the 17 pages are mainly the same people - about 50 in total. The negative reaction from a few people is very similar to that when Total War announced that they were going down this route. And when Civ went down this route. I'm sure both Creative Assembly and Firaxis were just as disappointed to be losing some long term customers as I am - but that doesn't change the decision that has been made, nor change my belief that from the options we had, it's the best one for all.

We will, continuously, look for other ways to provide our games to people as long as it doesn't compromise the security that is needed. I've been vocal about how I really like the OnLive system, for example, and this is something we'll continue to investigate. That does require you to register, though, and does require an internet connection permanently to play, so certainly won't suit all if we do go down that route.

There've been many posts about the problem being the installation of third party software on your machine, but that's just a part of life when it comes to PC games. Whether that be Direct X, graphics drivers, Windows/MacOS, font rendering technology, web browsing tech or other middleware, anytime you install a game, or application on your computer, you require third party software.

People have also asked "what about those who don't have an internet connection". When we had activation for FM2009 which was done both online and via telephone, less than 4% of people, globally, chose to use the telephone route. Some of these people had a net connection, but didn't want to authenticate that way (as per the huge threads at that time). So, again whilst it's disappointing that some people genuinely don't have a net connection and might miss out, this was taken into account with the overall decision, and there wasn't an option presented to me by SEGA this year that didn't involve purely online activation.

There has also been talk about other PC titles on here that will get your money instead. I've seen the following being mentioned so far (apologies if I've missed any) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fifa Manager, FIFA, Batman & Rage. Battlefield, FIFA Manager & FIFA on PC will all require EA's online system, called Origin, and for you to register with them. Rage is Steamworks, as we are. Call of Duty uses Activision's new online system. I do not know about Batman's authentication method, or whether it has one.

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

I, like many of the people who aren't happy with the decision, am also a very principled person. There are certain chains that I don't eat at. There's even a local sandwich shop that I won't go to anymore as they wouldn't change the bun on a sandwich I wanted (the original had sesame seeds on them, and I have a nut allergy) when they'd done so dozens of times in the past. I am well aware that some people will not buy the game purely on principle because we have gone Steam only this year and, as I said above, I'm very disappointed by that. Despite my own principles though, I fully understand and support the decision that has been made, given the options presented.

I also think that Steam itself is fantastic. I have more than 80 games on my account. They are massively helpful at every turn to help us get the game integrated with their features, like achievements, and allowing people with PC's & Mac's to be able to play games on both systems. SEGA's customer support team will be on hand if anyone does have an issue, as always, on top of Steam's support.

So, that's my opinion on the 17 pages that I've read so far. As I said, it's not going to appease all those who are anti, as some of those who are anti will only be happy if the decision is reversed, and it isn't going to be. Hopefully, though, some of the points I've made will appease some of you.

There are 2 questions that I haven't been able to answer that I do think need answering, which are how do people in countries where the game isn't sold play, and what about people in the forces who don't have net connections. Those are things for SEGA to look into, and I would hope that they would get back to you on those.

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Because once you do not have the piracy argument there is no reason to not allow other options. People are still using the piracy argument so I keep refuting it :)

Just because piracy probably won't be stopped doesn't mean that SI/Sega shouldn't be trying to find a resolution to minimize their loss of sales from piracy. They have to protect their product from being stolen in the best interests of the future of the company so they can continue to make games like FM for the public to enjoy.

I'm not saying if this decision will be 'right'. The sales when it's released will speak for themselves.

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It affects people with no internet connection.

Who else does it affect?

There you go. You just said who it affects. And my situation where I used to hand out 20 copies a year to rural kids here in Asia rewards for outstanding school work so that they play something other than FIFA has been compromised.

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I live in quite a remote area, and as I also use the most unreliable ISP (BT) my internet is down with frequency, once for 3 months. We also get people stealing copper phone cable quite regularly which takes a while to fix so it's been annoying for 2011. I didn't actually know you could use steam offline once a game is activated, that makes things much better.

Its interesting that a few people are seemingly converting to the pro-steam/not bothered side, while nobody seems convinced by any of the anti-steam arguments.

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The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.

Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.

Its just a thought really.

:lol: Brilliant. Couldn't read any more of your post because of the tears in my eyes. :lol:

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There you go. You just said who it affects. And my situation where I used to hand out 20 copies a year to rural kids here in Asia rewards for outstanding school work so that they play something other than FIFA has been compromised.

Give them another game maybe? :confused:

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Where you here for FM09's release? The non-steam activation software caused threads 20 times longer than this one (and not with the same 5 people going round in circles)

If that is the reason then fair enough, IF steam is the best on the market then it's a good decision. IF it actually reduces piracy more than it alienates "valued" long time consumers.

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No you can't. Not without evidence.

I notice you ignored the part about all games being pirated in 2011. Of course I can give you evidence. I will not post links to pirate forums here. I think you can use a search engine.

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This begs the question, Why choose steam?. I still don't understand the reason behind it.

Are steam better at anti-piracy than anyone else? General consensus says no.

Are you risking alienating long term customers with this decision? Yes.

Are there other anti-piracy measures that are available where you don't have to keep an online store's software on your machine forever to play your game? Yes.

So, Why steam? Am I missing something? I'm curious as much as anything because I've already openly said I'll still be buying it.

All I've read from SI is, "steam is better than it used to be" & "We are using Steam's online registry to combat piracy".

The only sensible conclusion is what I said on the last page.

Why steam? I dont know! perhaps they offer the best deal to SI/SEGA. Thats their decision...

Do you question them when the say you need 1Gb ram to play the game? Or that you need directx 9.0?

In this version they..."hey, you need steam to play the game"! Perhaps in FM2013 they will say something else! :)

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:lol: Brilliant. Couldn't read any more of your post because of the tears in my eyes. :lol:

I'm glad your still paying attention :)

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Paradox are trying the route, only time will tell if they have been successful or not, as you lot have painstakingly pointed out, it would be very difficult to prove the sales were gained because of no DRM or because of increased interest, much like it would be very hard to tell sales have increased because of DRM directly. People are not going to rush to buy games, especially not the games Paradox make because they dont have DRM, Paradox are a growing games company, if theird sales were not going up they would be rightly very worried. I have spent the best part of the last hour reading a lot on what they have to say for it all, and nothing says they have directly linked an increase in sales because of no DRM, now if a company like EA or someone similar posted info that backs that up i would be on your guys side right away. It strikes me as funny that the only company really giving this a go is one that makes games EVEN more specialized than FM that your average joe game player will not go near, the last thing they need is to limit anything.
paradox have been around since 1998 so I'd suggest their stratergy has been fairly successful. They also launched gamersgate which is where i buy games online as its cheap and best of all CLIENT FREE. Yes their games are specialised but their success is down to giving their customers want they want.

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Give them another game maybe? :confused:

Acfed...yes I will mate....But there was something cool about giving them a football game that allowed them to get an understanding of football rather than just booting a ball around the park....anyone...I really didn't want to use the personal example because I still not seen any reason not to offer an alternative.

Other companies offer alternatives.

The game will still be cracked and shared

Some people cant use Steam for whatever reason.

It just seems unjustifiable to me...but not to others I can see. Why they would care if there was an option, I have no idea!!

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I notice you ignored the part about all games being pirated in 2011. Of course I can give you evidence. I will not post links to pirate forums here. I think you can use a search engine.

A game that has been released being cracked at some point isn't evidence that anti-piracy methods don't have any impact on the number of copies pirated or the number of sales made.

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Having to validate a game through Steam is hardly a big expense is it. It's not like we've missed out on a developed feature as a result.

Was it coded by magic?

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Why steam? I dont know! perhaps they offer the best deal to SI/SEGA. Thats their decision...

Do you question them when the say you need 1Gb ram to play the game? Or that you need directx 9.0?

In this version they..."hey, you need steam to play the game"! Perhaps in FM2013 they will say something else! :)

My apologies, let me add an extra word, Why exclusively steam?

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paradox have been around since 1998 so I'd suggest their stratergy has been fairly successful. They also launched gamersgate which is where i buy games online as its cheap and best of all CLIENT FREE. Yes their games are specialised but their success is down to giving their customers want they want.

Have paradox released a game that sells on the scale of FM?

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My apologies, let me add an extra word, Why exclusively steam?

Because id it wasnt exclusively... the deal was not as good! :p

serious... i think it would be more confusing if we had more than one method to activate the game!

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Have paradox released a game that sells on the scale of FM?

They have about 10 big selling games which would come up to FM or beyond, Victoria, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron etc... They are not a one game company.

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I think people that aren't convinced by what going through Steam meant for SI and Sega should reread Miles post quoted here

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274801-A-Message-On-Football-Manager-2012-Activation?p=7092616&viewfull=1#post7092616

After they announced the game was announced via Steam only, it went up in pre-order sales.

Where he says previously that pre-order sales for previous FM games were cancelled.

Going through Steam seems to have reversed the effect and boosted sales so far.

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Have paradox released a game that sells on the scale of FM?

No Paradox release very very specialized games that require a ton of throught an effort, they are not games your average gamer picks up because there is no DRM, they will have made their choice based on the fact they have a much smaller pool of fans. Hats off to them like, but its a different situation.

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People have been whinging about "what happens to steam if it goes down and I have to wait 3 days".

(very broad analogy)

Payed £30 - wait three days.

Seemingly they are willing to wait 3 days for a pirated version, rather than 3 days to get a legitimate copy of FM up and running through Steam?

(very broad analogy)

Payed £0 - wait three days.

Simple.

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They have about 10 big selling games which would come up to FM or beyond, Victoria, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron etc... They are not a one game company.

So their challenges and methods aren't comparable to SI's?

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Because id it wasnt exclusively... the deal was not as good! :p

serious... i think it would be more confusing if we had more than one method to activate the game!

The top bit should be the serious bit. Which is what I was getting at on the last page when I posted:

*My opinion only disclaimer here*

1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.

2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).

3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved.

Which is why I'm a bit peeved with the decision.

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:lol: Brilliant. Couldn't read any more of your post because of the tears in my eyes. :lol:

So I reckon Sega using Steam as a method to deter people from pirating FM has absolutely nothing in common with the government using the presence of police to deter people from committing crime?

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Just found out...

FM2012 in Spain: 29,99€

FM2012 in Portugal: 49,99€

****!:mad:

Yeah this is one thing I don't agree with when it comes to Steam, the massively different prices across the world. It does't affect me living in England but I can't see how its fair that people who live in another country have to pay more than me for the same product.

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The top bit should be the serious bit. Which is what I was getting at on the last page when I posted:

*My opinion only disclaimer here*

1. SEGA/SI want some kind of registry in an attempt to combat piracy, but they want it to be financially relatively low risk.

2. Steam offer it for free on the condition that all users have to download & be logged into steam at all times while playing (increasing traffic and therefore sales).

3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved.

Which is why I'm a bit peeved with the decision.

But why you get mad at this? Ultimate it's a decision that bennefit SI, witch means... SI will continue to have the resources to make the game!

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Have paradox released a game that sells on the scale of FM?

Probably not, but they are not a one game company like SI and they also publish others developers games.

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A game that has been released being cracked at some point isn't evidence that anti-piracy methods don't have any impact on the number of copies pirated or the number of sales made.

:p One cracked game is all that is needed...boy oh boy.. Repeat: One cracked game gets sent all over the web...it gets burnt to CDs....How has the anti-piracy method stopped this. There are forums you can search right now for any game you want...why are you stubborn about this??? I mean seriously are you thinking about your argument. One cracked game = 10000's of games!!!

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Yeah this is one thing I don't agree with when it comes to Steam, the massively different prices across the world. It does't affect me living in England but I can't see how its fair that people who live in another country have to pay more than me for the same product.

This is not steam prices! This is retail prices for the pre-order!

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3. SEGA/SI realise this is the best option for them and they have a LOYAL (can't think of a better word) and die hard fan base, and a near monopoly on the genre of PC management sims, therefore can afford to force steam on their customers. Leaving their customers only 2 choices, do what your told or don't play FM. This is why I'm peeved.

if they are "loyal" and "die Hard", then surely they just buy the game anyway?

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This is not steam prices! This is retail prices for the pre-order!

Oh... well yeah that's obviously unfair too, although I can think of a few reasons why SEGA/SI may have done this.

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if they are "loyal" and "die Hard", then surely they just buy the game anyway?

Not much point if they can't play it and it seems that so many here think "tough luck". So while we have one side saying Okay..Steam...fine...and an alternative please...we have the other side saying....nope..Steam only and hahaha to the rest......sums it up I think....Have a good night :)

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Just found out...

FM2012 in Spain: 29,99€

FM2012 in Portugal: 49,99€

****!:mad:

The North American region of Steam sell FM12 for USD$39.99. And since the Canadian dollar is slightly better than US dollar, I pay 20 cents less than that.. :p

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Oh... well yeah that's obviously unfair too, although I can think of a few reasons why SEGA/SI may have done this.

I think its not SI/SEGA that decide the selling prices.

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Not much point if they can't play it and it seems that so many here think "tough luck". So while we have one side saying Okay..Steam...fine...and an alternative please...we have the other side saying....nope..Steam only and hahaha to the rest......sums it up I think....Have a good night :)

Hmm well lets look at the stats that the only person in the position to provide gave us, in 2009 FM had a non internet based activation. Globally less than 4% of people used this, now 2 years forward the net is even more widely and freely available, its safe to say some of those 4% now have access. They are hardly cutting off a large portion of their fan base.

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