David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

Then maybe if Steam is as ineffective as DRM as everybody seems to think they won't bother ;)

Ahhh...that's the cunning plan ;)

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I did a search about the effectiveness of switching to Steamworks on fighting this theft. No-one is going to give away hard numbers, obviously and unfortunately, amd there isn't much out there but I thought it might be interesting anyway.

In a 2001 interview with PC Gamer, Valve's Gabe Newell and Erik Johnson said:

PC Gamer: Do you have a good sense of piracy rates with Steam games?

Gabe Newell: They’re low enough that we don’t really spend any time [on it]. When you look at the things we sit around and talk about, as big picture cross game issues, we’re way more concerned about the stability of DirectX drivers or, you know, the erroneous banning of people. That’s way more of an issue for us than piracy.

Once you create service value for customers, ongoing service value, piracy seems to disappear, right? It’s like “Oh, you’re still doing something for me? I don’t mind the fact that I paid for this.” Once you actually localise your product in Russia and ship it on the same day that you ship your English language versions, this theoretical hotbed of piracy becomes your second largest- third largest after Germany in continental Europe? Or third after UK?

Erik Johnson: In terms of retail units?

Gabe Newell: In terms of sales of our products, yeah. Overall, Steam plus retail.

Erik Johnson: Probably second. It’s a big number.

Gabe Newell: The point is that there’s this market that you shouldn’t waste your time on, that went from, “You shouldn’t waste our time on it, they’ll just pirate it,” to “it’s actually a really large market for us now,” once you actually do the things that allow your product to be played. And that’s why some of the DRM approaches are so bad, because they create negative value, not positive value.

That does point towards Steam being effective against software theft; Valve's idea is to offer the customer a service, to offer something more than one would get by simply stealing a game.

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100% agree with this! But tell me, If you were SI or SEGA, wouldn't you do the same? :lol:

Yes, but I'm a horrible person.:)

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Then maybe if Steam is as ineffective as DRM as everybody seems to think they won't bother ;)

Thinking has nothing to do with it. It just is not effective as DRM. Anything out on Steam is available to download on torrent sites before/same/day after.

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Correct, Steam will not increase piracy. But will it reduce it significantly? I really doubt it.

If that is how people are reading my post, then I'll make it clear that there is nothing to read between the lines - I'mi not suggesting it will significantly reduce piracy because I have no access to figures that would suggest that. It's not an argument for or against Steam, it's an argument against piracy.

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Just loved the way you turned that into your basis of disregarding what everybody has been saying. Paradox offer steam because many people are happy to use, they also offer a version without any DRM because they have customers who want to use it. They have not seen a downturn in sales because of this. Hope we still have some case for an argument ;)

They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

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I read a really interesting with a guy who used to pirate games all the time. And stopped.

Read all the interviews you like.

http://www.google.ie/search?q=steam+piracy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

You'll find some very interesting ones there. I've read about a dozen so far.

And all in all turns me more in the favour of Steam.

Yes...but what has that got to do with it. You keep saying if it cuts down piracy you are for it...how can it? The game just needs to be cracked once and it is all over. This argument that is will make any impact on pirating the game just does not seem based on logiv. One craked and uploaded game becomes thousands of games. The games is just downloaded and reuploaded. It does not have to be cracked twice!!! Surely you see the point here. It will not hinder piracy!!! Just one time....who cares if someone stopped....someone else will do it. I do not see your argument. You agree the game will be cracked, but you agree that no options should be given to the consumer to not use steam...why? Once it has ben cracked once the anti-piracy idea is no longer an issue.

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If that is how people are reading my post, then I'll make it clear that there is nothing to read between the lines - I'mi not suggesting it will significantly reduce piracy because I have no access to figures that would suggest that. It's not an argument for or against Steam, it's an argument against piracy.

I know, I read your post correctly. SI/SEGA are saying that making the down load of steam a necessity is an anti-pirating measure which it's not. Which I refer to in the part of my post you deleted.

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They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

And??.....the argument is that Sega should offer options like Paradox do. You seem to think we are saying NO STEAM...no we are saying how about options for those who do not want to use steam.

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The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.

Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.

Its just a thought really.

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They aren't the best argument against the use of Steam as you posted, as they clearly use Steam and like it otherwise they wouldn't use it. Yes you aren't forced to use Steam, and I have never used Steam for any of their games because Steam prices are a ripoff outside of sales. If Steam is so amazing awful as DRM and doesn't offer advantages then surely Paradox would not use them at all. The very fact that they use it as well as providing DRM free versions shows that Steam is the best alternative to selling DRM free software.

Paradox will use steam because it is a retail venue with access to many customers, not for there anti-piracy abilities.

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Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?

It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.

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Well which is safer to do. Release a game with no DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy, or release a game with DRM and guess if sales volumes are affected by piracy.

Neither, safety doesn't come into it. Spend the money wasted chasing phantom, future customers, who've seen the error of their pirating ways, on improving the game and service to paying customers.

(note the single 't' in pie ratting);)

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I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.

To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.

Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.

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The just of this thread seems to be saying that, pirating can never be stopped so why bother trying, if we are to go down the wonderful path of analogies, why dont they just do away with the police? Your never going to stop crime, so why bother, why not just educate people when they are young and put faith and trust that they wont break the law? People who are inclined towards crime are going to commit them whether we have police or not, so why waste money trying to stop them when they could spend money improving our nation and education and most importantly, poverty? Forcing people to follow laws are just pushing them to do something illegal, because hey, we should have an unlimited number of choices in the world.

Also another thought, i would sincerely hope that every single one of these "loyal" customers are active in shopping any torrent of FM they come across on the net, as a "loyal" customer surely should be appalled to see FM being available for free. A lot of people on here who are against steam seem to have good knowledge on stealing the game, so it cant be that hard for them to track down a torrent on release day and email SI, SEGA or Miles directly with a link. I would hope these "loyal" customers would also shop anyone they knew using a pirate copy of FM, again they should be outraged at this happening, not condoning it.

Its just a thought really.

Milner you keep ignoring the Paradox example who did just that. They have increased sales steadily. Previous posts outline this argument. Paradox use Steam and a DRM free game. :)

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And??.....the argument is that Sega should offer options like Paradox do. You seem to think we are saying NO STEAM...no we are saying how about options for those who do not want to use steam.

Providing everyone is happy that some form of DRM has to be in place (which they aren't). There are very few valid reasons to not want to use Steam and to want an alternative.

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Neither, safety doesn't come into it. Spend the money wasted chasing phantom, future customers, who've seen the error of their pirating ways, on improving the game and service to paying customers.

(note the single 't' in pie ratting);)

Having to validate a game through Steam is hardly a big expense is it. It's not like we've missed out on a developed feature as a result.

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So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

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I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.

But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.

Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.

And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.

They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.

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Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?

It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.

Once the game as been cracked it can be converted and then placed on a CD :( The technology they have is already there. A cracked game will be on a CD very quickly. This is getting very circular. Why are people refusing to admit that the game will be pirated and distributed. It just has to be done once and away we go, If we just accept that we can accept that not giving consumers a choice is not really justifiable. I think some people are clinging on to the anti-piracy argument because if you drop that there there is no defense left.

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Providing everyone is happy that some form of DRM has to be in place (which they aren't). There are very few valid reasons to not want to use Steam and to want an alternative.

Because you have to install a third party software. And it has to be running all the time. And that 3rd party software monitors your actions (to what extent I'm not sure).

My point - Let me download steam to register then uninstall when I've registered.

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So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

People have been whinging about "what happens to steam if it goes down and I have to wait 3 days".

Seemingly they are willing to wait 3 days for a pirated version, rather than 3 days to get a legitimate copy of FM up and running through Steam?

(very broad analogy)

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I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.

But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.

Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.

And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.

They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.

Eugene. I agree...Give steam a go...yes...no problems...but please think of the portion of your customer who don't want or can't use steam....that is all I am asking anyway.

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So the logic is "If we can stall pirates for 3 days and they'll go and buy it."

If i wanted something and it costs £30 but i know that if i wait a few days i can get it for free.... 3 days isn't that long to wait. "Oh no i have to wait 3 days.... I better go buy it then, oh damn you SI! Soooo wanted it for free on release day but i can't wait 3 days, i'll die!"

I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

If it's anything like 2009 you'll have to wait 3 days regardless.

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Because you have to install a third party software. And it has to be running all the time. And that 3rd party software monitors your actions (to what extent I'm not sure).

My point - Let me download steam to register then uninstall when I've registered.

A third party application that does not affect your Football Manager gaming experience.

It's not a valid reason. Just because it's a 3rd party application and it has to be running.

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I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.

To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.

Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.

Yeh, that's gang awry somewhere, should install from the disc.

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Milner you keep ignoring the Paradox example who did just that. They have increased sales steadily. Previous posts outline this argument. Paradox use Steam and a DRM free game. :)

Paradox are trying the route, only time will tell if they have been successful or not, as you lot have painstakingly pointed out, it would be very difficult to prove the sales were gained because of no DRM or because of increased interest, much like it would be very hard to tell sales have increased because of DRM directly. People are not going to rush to buy games, especially not the games Paradox make because they dont have DRM, Paradox are a growing games company, if their sales were not going up they would be rightly very worried. I have spent the best part of the last hour reading a lot on what they have to say for it all, and nothing says they have directly linked an increase in sales because of no DRM, now if a company like EA or someone similar posted info that backs that up i would be on your guys side right away. It strikes me as funny that the only company really giving this a go is one that makes games EVEN more specialized than FM that your average joe game player will not go near, the last thing they need is to limit anything.

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Because when you pay for something you want use it straight away :)

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Once the game as been cracked it can be converted and then placed on a CD :( The technology they have is already there. A cracked game will be on a CD very quickly. This is getting very circular. Why are people refusing to admit that the game will be pirated and distributed. It just has to be done once and away we go, If we just accept that we can accept that not giving consumers a choice is not really justifiable. I think some people are clinging on to the anti-piracy argument because if you drop that there there is no defense left.

Nobody has said it will stop it, wish people would stop saying that.

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Just a shame that the 'any colour so long as it's black' is a myth.

The saying is attributed. The concept is not. Ford produced Model T's in black only from 1913-25 to reduce costs.

The model T was available in several colours for the first few years of manufacture, but became available only in black from 1913 until 1927 when Ford stopped making it.

Almost. He started producing it again in other colours from 1925-27 in an attempt to boost flagging sales.

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I highly doubt anyone is that impatient.

You're having a laugh aren't you :D

Have you not seen how impatient gamers get on release day! Most would sell their own grandmother to get to play the game an hour earlier.

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I did a search about the effectiveness of switching to Steamworks on fighting this theft. No-one is going to give away hard numbers, obviously and unfortunately, amd there isn't much out there but I thought it might be interesting anyway.

In a 2001 interview with PC Gamer, Valve's Gabe Newell and Erik Johnson said:

That does point towards Steam being effective against software theft; Valve's idea is to offer the customer a service, to offer something more than one would get by simply stealing a game.

I think the point is that releasing the game everywhere at the same time helps. If you dont do that people who want the game will just just download the pirate version and forget about buying the original when its actually released in their territory.

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I've always said there's nothing you can do to stop piracy. You can take steps to cut it down.

But I've said all along that I don't think this route with Steam will help. But I'm willing to give Steam a go.

Sega and SI seem to think it will help. In so much that they hope to double their sales by going this route.

And this is something they have decided. If that's the decision based on doubling sales, I can't argue with them.

They do refuse to release numbers, for various reasons. But I have no reason to doubt them.

If steam doubles FM2012 sales I'll show my backside in dixons window.

I have some magic beans, I'll post them to you, Just pay £30 quid into my bank will you. I assume, as you have no reason not to believe you will be rushing to your bank as we speak.

The reason not believe both examples is common sense.

Edit: and just for the record I have also stated I am willing to give steam ago. Although I'm peeved, I won't cut off my nose to spite my face.

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I live in quite a remote area, and as I also use the most unreliable ISP (BT) my internet is down with frequency, once for 3 months. We also get people stealing copper phone cable quite regularly which takes a while to fix so it's been annoying for 2011. I didn't actually know you could use steam offline once a game is activated, that makes things much better.

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Eugene. I agree...Give steam a go...yes...no problems...but please think of the portion of your customer who don't want or can't use steam....that is all I am asking anyway.

Do you not think they thought about that already?

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I have a general questions as I might have done something wrong.

To test the waters with Steam I decided to activate FM2010 with them, I followed the install instructions after firing up the disk & was as expected re-directed to Steam to enter the activation code. I have now been pushed to a download manager which is installing the game via the Steam server rather than the disk.

Is this how the system works? Have I missed an option that would allow the faster disk installation? I only ask because even with a 20 meg broadband connection & assuming I'm probably the only person downloading FM2010 the estimated time required is slightly over 10 minutes which makes me wonder how long the process would take a day or two after release.

When I installed FM10 on Steam, it installed from disc, and then afterwards automatically went to the Steam download manager to download the latest patch. It could be doing that.

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If steam doubles FM2012 sales I'll show my backside in dixons window.

I have some magic beans, I'll post them to you, Just pay £30 quid into my bank will you. I assume, as you have no reason not to believe you will be rushing to your bank as we speak.

The reason not believe both examples is common sense.

Edit: and just for the record I have also stated I am willing to give steam ago. Although I'm peeved, I won't cut off my nose to spite my face.

It's said in the opening post. It's not me that's saying it I'm just reiterating what David from Sega said.

I assume they did their market research and projections?

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A third party application that does not affect your Football Manager gaming experience.

It's not a valid reason. Just because it's a 3rd party application and it has to be running.

Do you just hate people who will not be able to play or be very inconvenienced. You really don't care do you. For some reason you just will not allow the idea that an OPTION might be nice for some people especially when the option will do no harm to the developers.

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Downloaded cracked versions of the game aren't the only form of Piracy?

It's a bit harder to burn image copies of a CD and sell it at the local market when it's a Steam game.

Why? Download the cracked game and put it on the cd. Voila. Steam games are no different than games protected with other systems. The only difference is that steam games are much easier to crack.

Steam will do nothing to stop the piracy. The only thing its good for is that it mostly stops prereleases.

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It's said in the opening post. It's not me that's saying it I'm just reiterating what David from Sega said.

I assume they did their market research and projections?

I said on the last page why I believe the anti-piracy thing is not the main reason for this decision.

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Yeh, that's gang awry somewhere, should install from the disc.

hmm, wonder where I went wrong, might have another go with FM2009 (if that's still an option), really don't want to have t resort trying it with FM2011.

Will have to work it otherwise I won't be able to fix those little nation related issues.

Edit: Sussed out where I went wrong, very easy mistake to make considering I went for the +add Games icon in the bottom right of the Steam Window. Lesson taken away is that Steam needs to be running & online before I fire up the disc.

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SI, just get rid of the need for us to keep Steam after activation. That's what most are annoyed about!

I think that's not possible! technically i mean.

If you get activation with steam, their system needs to be always loaded in order to do the job. So what you are asking... it's not possible.

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Do you just hate people who will not be able to play or be very inconvenienced. You really don't care do you. For some reason you just will not allow the idea that an OPTION might be nice for some people especially when the option will do no harm to the developers.

How do you know it won't harm the developers? They've taken this stance because their current model is harming their developers.

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Do you just hate people who will not be able to play or be very inconvenienced. You really don't care do you. For some reason you just will not allow the idea that an OPTION might be nice for some people especially when the option will do no harm to the developers.

I don't hate anyone. I just don't understand moaning about something that doesn't impact your ability to play the game.

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I think it's acceptable that having a home internet connection is a minimum requirement.

Of course you do, and I'm glad you're alright Jack.

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The only thing its good for is that it mostly stops prereleases.

Well done that man, Miles already said this but people can't see for looking sometimes:)

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Nobody has said it will stop it, wish people would stop saying that.

Because once you do not have the piracy argument there is no reason to not allow other options. People are still using the piracy argument so I keep refuting it :)

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Of course you do, and I'm glad you're alright Jack.

I bet you're mad that shops don't sell the latest charts on vinyl any more too?

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With that in mind, then SI should never developed the 3D match engine, because their are users that dont have a PC with the requirements to play the game in 3D?

Bad example...The 2D and Commentary Only options are still available for those who own PC that cannot handle 3D. There is no similar option for those who cannot/will not use Steam.

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