David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

I, for one, am a little disappointed in the selfabsorbed horsepucky ideology some of the people on here are using. Of course, they are blissfully numb because they have been spoilt with all the things that make this move from SI/SEGA a non existant problem for them. The "oh, it doesn't effect me so what's the problem?" attitude is just plain disrespectfull and I really urge some of you to show more compassion. There are a lot of people that won't be able to play the game due to the internet connection and they won't have a say on here due to obvious reasons, so there are a few that are sticking up for them or have had bad experiences with the Steam reality.

Just because it doesn't effect you it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue :thdn:...

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The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.

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[quote name='kymsheba']If they don't have accurate figures than don't go on the record and state numbers and such, if they don'y know exactly than they need to NOT say anything in that area where they don'y know they are just making it up.

Cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

They'll be happy that their estimates give them a pretty clear picture, and all the fuss is because as you suggest they don't give figures down to 10 digits and people keep demanding they do.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']I can see that you like to be thorough when posting specific responses so I felt you might appreciate it if I pointed out that you have overlooked a small detail.[/QUOTE]

well done picking up on the half sentence i missed out, good to see your paying attention to my posts :thup:

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Fair enough guys, patches will be downloaded.

There should be definitely an option of which patch you want to download!


From reading through the Steam Forums on problems with offline mode - starting with the most recent I could find.

These two links popped up an awful lot in regards to many offline issues and scenarios

[url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555[/url]

[url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1456-EUDN-2493[/url]


It is certainly worth the effort of searching the Steam forums, as Wakers already suggested.

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[quote name='Barside']Eugene, with reference to point 5 your solution does not work, how is a player to know that they do not like a patch & would prefer to to go back a step without actually downloading the latest update, once that is done there is no turning back?

Edit: Too slow[/QUOTE]he obviously didn't think of this because he is so worried about protecting steams rep he does not accept the bad things that come with having steam. as Keyzer Soze pointed out to bad if you uninstall and then later down the track want to reinstall it without the latest patch.

cheers,
kymsheba

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Perhaps a great solution... and maybe a great feature for... FM2013:

like you can choose the database version on the start of a save game, we could also choose the version of the ME.

Because i think the bigger problem with not liking the latest patch, it's because of the ME.

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']Ok Eugene, but imagine this situation. You buy the game in March. After the release of patch number 3. You activate the game, and immediately you'll get patch number 3 in your game.

If it was today, you could install the original version, then download patch number 1, install it, play it! Ok, let go try patch number 2.... and so on.

This is a "feature" that, as it stands, we will loose in the future.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is and I've already pointed that out to SI, Steam have the power to make that possible fairly simply I think, atm they integrate the latest patch and that's it, they need have auto update off as the default and then let you select from a list of patches.

Will they do it? your guess is as good as mine, I've no idea how many people actually want that ability but it would need to be signifant numbers for them to even consider I'd guess.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']so you've sited one game when you had an issue, i have used steam for the 30 odd games i have on my account, each one has updated when it should have, half life, counter strike, fm any of the big titles i have bought, all your doing is scaremongering because one time you had an issue with one game.
Yet again ill say it, in the 3 years steam has released FM they have released the patches the exact same time they were made available on here or any other website. That is the only important stat here, other games do not matter.[/QUOTE]other games do not matter???? are you serious i am a dedicated FM fan don't get me wrong, but i also do like my other $90 games to work when they are supposed to, get real man not everything revolves around FM and you, but i guess your one of those that as along as it doesn't affect you then the rest of the world doesn't matter.

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='Wakers']The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.[/QUOTE]

Where do you get all this info on offline mode from, i have used it constantly for 3 years, very rarely is my steam online, never once had a problem, you also said earlier that you had to log on every 30 days, again, complete nonsense, can you please link to where you are getting all of this info from, it would be interesting to read.

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[quote name='Kriss']They'll be happy that their estimates give them a pretty clear picture, and all the fuss is because as you suggest they don't give figures down to 10 digits and people keep demanding they do.[/QUOTE]then don't publish them and people won't ask questions about those figures but to just say here are some numbers we made up and accept our word for it without providing accurate data to back it up is stupid.

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']Ok Eugene, but imagine this situation. You buy the game in March. After the release of patch number 3. You activate the game, and immediately you'll get patch number 3 in your game.

If it was today, you could install the original version, then download patch number 1, install it, play it! Ok, let go try patch number 2.... and so on.

This is a "feature" that, as it stands, we will loose in the future.[/QUOTE]

Loads of people whine that the game is crap until the third patch anyway.

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[quote name='Wakers']The thing about offline mode is that its meant as a temporary solution, not as something that they expect/want people to be using all the time.[/QUOTE]

Even so it should work properly, it has for me over periods up to a couple of weeks, if as has been suggested it auto connects after an extended period of offline it should at least warn first.

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[quote name='kymsheba']then don't publish them and people won't ask questions about those figures but to just say here are some numbers we made up and accept our word for it without providing accurate data to back it up is stupid.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.

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[quote name='afced7']Loads of people whine that the game is crap until the third patch anyway.[/QUOTE]loads of people also play with second patch and not 3rd either.

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='kymsheba']he obviously didn't think of this because he is so worried about protecting steams rep he does not accept the bad things that come with having steam. as Keyzer Soze pointed out to bad if you uninstall and then later down the track want to reinstall it without the latest patch.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

I couldn't care less about Steams rep.

I sincerely hope though that Steam works great for a majority of people. As I don't want to see FM fail because of Steam.

But I really care about FM, not Steam.

Ok I missed a point about Patches. And I accepted that.

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[quote name='kymsheba']other games do not matter???? are you serious i am a dedicated FM fan don't get me wrong, but i also do like my other $90 games to work when they are supposed to, get real man not everything revolves around FM and you, but i guess your one of those that as along as it doesn't affect you then the rest of the world doesn't matter.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

Why would anything revolve around me? Lets not get personal here, i have not insulted you in anyway. The point still stands, we are talking about FM, what are peoples experiences with FM are what we should focus on, not other games, there are tons of reasons why things dont happen as they should, i am pointing out with FM all seems to work as it should, thats important on an FM forum talking about FM through steam.

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After recently installing Steam I've had it running in offline mode for the last 24 hours & can report no suspicious activity, the next step will be to install FM10 via Steam & I'll be letting that run in holiday mode over night to see if there are any related issues on that front.

[COLOR=#222222][quote name='Eugene Tyson']
[URL]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1456-EUDN-2493[/URL][/QUOTE]

There are quite a few common programmes on that list, *Devil's Advocate* Why can't steam optimise its software to not cause conflicts with some of the more common pieces of software. *End Devil's Advocate* (this is a rhetorical question)[/COLOR]

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Where do you get all this info on offline mode from, i have used it constantly for 3 years, very rarely is my steam online, never once had a problem, you also said earlier that you had to log on every 30 days, again, complete nonsense, can you please link to where you are getting all of this info from, it would be interesting to read.[/QUOTE]

Just my personal experience using Steam and common sense. Offline mode tends to stop working when the Steam client needs updating, which again, tends to be every 30 or so days.

Steam being an online platform obviously would prefer its users to be in online mode rather than offline.

Offline mode, for me, tends to work the vast majority of the time, but will sometimes (typically at the worst possible times, sods law) not work for reasons best known to itself.

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Again, the only people who are affected to the ability of not being able to play FM12 at all are those who do not have an internet connection. Which is why the box will state that one is needed (not that that compensates those who have bought the series for years and are now unable to play it).

Anything else is just what ifs, rare cases and minor inconveniences.

The bottom line is, the vast vast majority of people who want to buy FM12 will be able to buy it, install it, active it and play it.

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[quote name='Kriss']You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba

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I use Steam, and when I last did my big English league file I used to leave it running over a weekend to test stability (of my update file). Never once had any issues.

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[quote name='Barside']After recently installing Steam I've had it running in offline mode for the last 24 hours & can report no suspicious activity, [/QUOTE]

You didn't look out of your window at 10 PM last night then did you?:D after all your PM's I thought I'd better have you checked out:p

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Why would anything revolve around me? Lets not get personal here, i have not insulted you in anyway. The point still stands, we are talking about FM, what are peoples experiences with FM are what we should focus on, not other games, there are tons of reasons why things dont happen as they should, i am pointing out with FM all seems to work as it should, thats important on an FM forum talking about FM through steam.[/QUOTE]fair enough sorry if you took it personally, please accept my apologies to you. :)

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='Kriss']You can pause any Steam download at any time and resume it also at any time, if you lose your connection it acts as a pause and when you recover your connection you then click once to resume if it doesn't resume automatically.

A Steam thread is planned but you can head to their forums or help pages anytime and there's a wealth of information, because FM is late on the scene in this regard they've already been through the hoops with other big games, so I doubt FM users will come across a problem that isn't already documented somewhere there.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the reply. That's good news for me regarding patch downloads. Good to hear there is a thread / blog planned. Looking forward to it.

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[quote name='kymsheba']it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.

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Fwiw I suspect offline mode will work much more reliably if you never switch it to online mode (which you can do once you've activated the game).

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[quote name='milnerpoint']well done picking up on the half sentence i missed out, good to see your paying attention to my posts :thup:[/QUOTE]

I'm glad to be of service, I was a little worried that I might have caused offence. As you are now aware of your ommission I am sure you will correct it, as I am extremely interested to hear your thoughts on it.

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[quote name='Kriss']I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.[/QUOTE]

I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?

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[quote name='kymsheba']it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

1. That was a needless insult, and by the way you didn't start your first sentence with a capital letter, and you started your second with a connective. I don't think you're in a position to question people's education.
2. He didn't quote any figures in that post.

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[quote name='Wakers']I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?[/QUOTE]

None of them have pin point accuracy but are you seriously suggesting piracy isn't a problem and they're making up numbers just to convince people it is?

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[quote name='Kriss']You must be living in a cacoon, if piracy even gets mentioned everybody and his dogs demands they provide figures and if they don't piracy actually doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

No, but when an apparently successful gaming company like Paradox admits it is not worth their time focusing on pirates, but that they would rather focus on making the gaming experience better for the consumer, you need to take some notice.

Interesting that the fact that another gaming company has said that DRM did nothing for their sales is being ignored.

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Not the piracy numbers, the fact that they don't see increased sales by using DRM.

I certainly think the bigger publishers are guilty of spinning certain research, yes.

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[quote name='Wakers']Just my personal experience using Steam and common sense. Offline mode tends to stop working when the Steam client needs updating, which again, tends to be every 30 or so days.

Steam being an online platform obviously would prefer its users to be in online mode rather than offline.

Offline mode, for me, tends to work the vast majority of the time, but will sometimes (typically at the worst possible times, sods law) not work for reasons best known to itself.[/QUOTE]

Well that is not my experience at all, or any of my pals, my mate has not had the net for about 8 months now because his network card is broken, he plays FM every day through steam it has never tried to re-connect.
Please if people are going to post this kind of stuff at least check the steam forums and website, offline mode should work indefinitely, it does not need to update or anything, even if it did, how would i know there were updates available if it is set up in offline mode??!!

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[quote name='Kriss']I didn't quote any, we're discussing the software industry research and if you think they just pull the numbers off of a wall you seriously are deluded.[/QUOTE]i was talking about them saying these things and not you, as for me thinking they pull numbers off the wall then you are indeed brainwashed and believe everything people tell you, they would have no idea how many pirated copies of their software are being used it is impossible to get any idea of the problem, what have they done,gone around to every household in the world and seen if they have a pirated version or not? Because that is the only way you would get an accurate number.

So please think about what you write and state before calling people deluded.

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='Wakers']I wonder why Paradox seem to get completely different figures to Sega/other major publishers?[/QUOTE]

Maybe they are just one of those few companies that haven't had the wool pulled over their eyes and won't be intimidated by the big corps that are trying to have everyone dance to their fiddles...

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']I'm glad to be of service, I was a little worried that I might have caused offence. As you are now aware of your ommission I am sure you will correct it, as I am extremely interested to hear your thoughts on it.[/QUOTE]

Dont you worry yourself pet, stress will only make things worse, if you would like in future ill PM all my posts to your inbox, just incase you miss any of them, i would hate to think of you getting worried because of an online forum post. :)

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[quote name='aaron70']No, but when an apparently successful gaming company like Paradox admits it is not worth their time focusing on pirates, but that they would rather focus on making the gaming experience better for the consumer, you need to take some notice.

Interesting that the fact that another gaming company has said that DRM did nothing for their sales is being ignored.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it is, one thing software companies (even bitter rivals) collaborate over is piracy, and they collaborate in a big way.
If the Paradox way keeps working for them others may well consider it but I suspect some at least would consider it too big a risk to take without much more proof that it's long term safe to do.
If it were to flop FM would be dead and gone.

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[quote name='kymsheba']it's cocoon mate, some people need a better education. And once again don't quote figures unless you can back it up.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

No point getting snippy with him mate. My point is mainly about the use of the figures. Where they get them from is never going to be that accurate. It's the using ridiculous scenario of, "if one quarter of people that use a pirated game by a real one.....". Using steam is not going to achieve anything like this, so using that as a reason for the decision is poor form.

I don't believe that the decision is motivated by piracy, I really don't. I think it is naive to believe that steam will cause a noticeable decline in piracy of the game, and even if it does the majority still won't buy it. There may be less places to get their thieving hands on it but they will get it free somewhere.

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Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Well that is not my experience at all, or any of my pals, my mate has not had the net for about 8 months now because his network card is broken, he plays FM every day through steam it has never tried to re-connect.
Please if people are going to post this kind of stuff at least check the steam forums and website, offline mode should work indefinitely, it does not need to update or anything, even if it did, how would i know there were updates available if it is set up in offline mode??!![/QUOTE]

Again, checking the steam forums shows that offline mode does not work all the time for everybody. You should accept that people have different experiences. Personally, I've been using Steam on and off since it was released. Offline mode has improved a lot since it was first introduced, but its still by no means perfect for everybody that uses it.

Sorry that it doesn't coincide with you and your friends' experiences.

If you swap between online and offline, your steam client will be queued to receive any update. If you go back into offline mode before the update begins, offline mode won't let you play any games.

This is what happened to me this past weekend with Deus Ex. On Sunday evening, I was unable to play 3/5 games because they needed to be updated. However, the network was apparently having problems pushing out the updates, so my client was in the queue, but not downloading (nor telling me that the games needed updating). This was with Borderlands, Magic the Gathering and Deus Ex.

Once the games had updated the following morning, they worked again.

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[quote name='aaron70']Just want to say thank you for posting this. I notice nobody made a comment on it even though it really supports the "no steam" argument.

I admire Paradox as a company and you can see what they want to do. They want to win customers over and support people who play the game.
"We don't believe pirates are worth our energy, time and passion. Instead we choose to focus on our paying customers by offering them extra services"
They are gaining strong loyalty because they treat people with respect. Sega, on the other hand, are doing what big companies do; bully consumers into acceptance because they focus on being reactive to pirates instead of proactive to their consumers.

As Paradox state clearly:
DRM is quite costly
Most DRM offers no extra value to paying customers
DRM causes a lot of extra support
There is no evidence that DRM actually increases our sales numbers

The best argument against the measures being introduced by Sega without a doubt. Big applause to Paradox (I love Vickie II by the way) :)
This is a company with a long gaming history. Surely what they say must be respected.[/QUOTE]

[url=http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?557506-HoI3-Hardware-Survey&p=12793540&highlight=#post12793540]See this thread here[/url] stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.

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[quote name='playmaker']Am I the only one that doesn't understand why someone who objects to third party software would then use a torrent client from a third party and entrust the security of their system to a hacked game?[/QUOTE]:applause:

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[quote name='eddymunster']No point getting snippy with him mate. My point is mainly about the use of the figures. Where they get them from is never going to be that accurate. It's the using ridiculous scenario of, "if one quarter of people that use a pirated game by a real one.....". Using steam is not going to achieve anything like this, so using that as a reason for the decision is poor form.

I don't believe that the decision is motivated by piracy, I really don't. I think it is naive to believe that steam will cause a noticeable decline in piracy of the game, and even if it does the majority still won't buy it. There may be less places to get their thieving hands on it but they will get it free somewhere.[/QUOTE]yes i agree they can't go stating figures where there is no way to know the amount of piracy, it is impossible.

cheers,
kymsheba

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[quote name='Eugene Tyson']Fair enough guys, patches will be downloaded.

There should be definitely an option of which patch you want to download!


From reading through the Steam Forums on problems with offline mode - starting with the most recent I could find.

These two links popped up an awful lot in regards to many offline issues and scenarios

[url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555[/url]

[url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1456-EUDN-2493[/url]


It is certainly worth the effort of searching the Steam forums, as Wakers already suggested.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Number 4 on the troubleshooting list [url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1456-EUDN-2493[/url] is very interesting when you consider what programs might interfere with Steam. [url]https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9828-SFLZ-9289[/url]

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[quote name='Kriss']I don't think it is, one thing software companies (even bitter rivals) collaborate over is piracy, and they collaborate in a big way.
If the Paradox way keeps working for them others may well consider it but I suspect some at least would consider it too big a risk to take without much more proof that it's long term safe to do.
If it were to flop FM would be dead and gone.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and it may well if you do not care about your consumers. Paradox do that. Their forums are always active and positive with lots of interaction between Paradox and the consumers. Theyhave treated their consumer base so well that their sales figures have steadily increased each year.

I imagine so have the amount of games that have been pirated, but they acknowledge [B]that piracy will not be stopped by DRM - it does not affect their sales figures[/B] - so they focus on increasing sales of their product by keeping their existing consumer base happy. I know this is scary for some!!

If Football Manager had existing customers dumping their product to get pirated copies, and did not increase its sales, then we have another issue as obviously Paradox has achieved it.

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I was going say you can buy paradox games through steam, seems like the worlds best game company is conspiring with the devil ;)


(joke)

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[quote name='Wakers']Again, checking the steam forums shows that offline mode does not work all the time for everybody. You should accept that people have different experiences. Personally, I've been using Steam on and off since it was released. Offline mode has improved a lot since it was first introduced, but its still by no means perfect for everybody that uses it.

Sorry that it doesn't coincide with you and your friends' experiences.

If you swap between online and offline, your steam client will be queued to receive any update. If you go back into offline mode before the update begins, offline mode won't let you play any games.

This is what happened to me this past weekend with Deus Ex. On Sunday evening, I was unable to play 3/5 games because they needed to be updated. However, the network was apparently having problems pushing out the updates, so my client was in the queue, but not downloading (nor telling me that the games needed updating). This was with Borderlands, Magic the Gathering and Deus Ex.

Once the games had updated the following morning, they worked again.[/QUOTE]

So am I right in thinking that if all your games had been set to "not auto update" that wouldn't have happened unless you'd mamually asked to once online?

Not suggesting that's satisfactory, just making sure I can avoid that catch 22 situation.

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[quote name='kymsheba']yes i agree they can't go stating figures where there is no way to know the amount of piracy, it is impossible.

cheers,
kymsheba[/QUOTE]

Don't they put tracking codes into the software? I know some softwares do. And it states that information such as computer, hardware, location etc. for possible false registration key will be transmitted to a website and they can then sort those by country and the amount of people.

Of course that is an estimate, as not everyone would be online.


But it's one possible way.

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[quote name='Katarian'][url=http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?557506-HoI3-Hardware-Survey&p=12793540&highlight=#post12793540]See this thread here[/url] stating that they sell more copies of their games on Steam then all the other sources. I haven't bought one of their games off Steam but I assume you have to run Steam to play them just like every other game on Steam. So they are more then happy to use Steam, they obviously feel that it is a form of DRM that offers paying customers extra value completely invalidating your arguement.[/QUOTE]Yes they do sell through steam but they also give you the option of buying the games or mods through their website or others that DO NOT USE STEAM so in no way does it invalidate his argument. You can buy the same games or mods without going through steam they understand their customers and provide that ability whereas FM12 are not providing this same ability, I bet you any money what so ever if FM12 was available to buy without using steam then no one would have a problem with it.

cheers,
kymsheba

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