David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

[quote name='eddymunster']Really? So if every FM 2012 stops working in say 2013/14/15 or whenever, even though you have paid for it you have no choice but stop using it. So your only really renting this game until steam stops you playing it?

I know this is unlikely, but still seems wrong.[/QUOTE]

No. This is wrong, Valve (owners of steam) have repeatedly said that if they were to go bust they would release a last patch that would allow all games to run without steam.

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Well i like many others will not be buying this years game .

and its worth to point out that every single game on steam . has been hacked .. there is not one single game that you cant download a hack copy off ...

so is it really worth SI upseting all its gammers for something that wont do the job they say it will ... if anything it will only add to the amount off hacked copys

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't make a difference. Your games are linked to your account not your computer/laptop. So all you need to do is reinstall Steam and then reinstall your games.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']No need to wait.

You just need to read the thread. [/QUOTE]

All 22 pages where I would say at least 10 of those pages are filled with just people being angry and making no sense?

I have read the thread, but not all the posts.

Although, that doesn't seem to cover whether it was installed from downloading via Steam or from disc.

Although I suspect that it does and I was probably wrong.


[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']And as I said People should be careful when posting information that they do not absolutely know to be correct.[/QUOTE]

This is a forum, a place where people can talk openly. Sometimes someone is wrong. Doesn't mean they can't post what they think is the right answer. If they are wrong they are wrong. It's not the first time I was wrong about something and won't be the last.

And I'm sure from time to time you will post something that is wrong and someone will correct you. Let's hope they do it a more diplomatic manner than you take.

Thanks to the people who pointed out that patches will only be available through Steam.

<shrugs> I'll make sure to pass on that info the next time someone asks.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

You can download steam and log into your profile on any computer, you can then install any game you have bought or installed through that account. I recently moved my steam account onto my new laptop with no issues at all, took seconds to download steam and put in my details, i can also re-download half life and any game i have ever used through steam despite them being installed on different computers.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

If you buy a new computer, reformat or anything. You install Steam and you will be able to play the game.

The first time you log into Steam from a new computer or reformatted computer, or anything of the like, Steam will require verification as it recognises the new computer.

At this point, Steam will email you a verification code to input so you can log into Steam.

Which is called Steam Guard.

[url]http://store.steampowered.com/news/5123/[/url]

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So what if I "found" my old computer? Can I continue playing my FM save offline?

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']No, but it seems you can't sell it because you've already activated that disc.

What I'm not sure about is what happens if your computer crashes and needs reformatting, or you buy a new computer. Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer? If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

The way it works is that if you access your Steam account from any different computer (or even browser) than the one you created your account with, it runs a little authentication script emailing you a one time only verification code.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']So what if I "found" my old computer? Can I continue playing my FM save offline?[/QUOTE]

You can play any save on any PC provided the save file is on it or on the Steam Cloud game save system. (don't use that personally)

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[quote name='milnerpoint']

Again no one is screwing anyone over, not in the slightest, they are asking you to install a free program, nothing more. Anyone staying away is doing so by choice, not because SI have screwed you over.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying this. I and many others disagree. I have stated why before. Your opinion is nobody is getting screwed over, mine is that some people are.

I really can't see why you seem to expect people to be loyal to the game? Why would I accept that a game has made a decision that I do not approve off. That is just asking for trouble. The game is there for us. We are not there for the game. As soon as we say to the manufacturer, "Do what you want because we will buy it anyway", they will continue to seek ways to gain the biggest profit without a care for the consumer. You have already seen that your argument that once you activate steam it can be turned off is false. Eventually a deal may be one that you have to be online or something more intrusive. Why? Because Steam runs on ads. The more the merrier for them. It is the nature of the beast.

Just searching about steam issues and problems is causing me to reinforce my stance of not getting FM12.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']its £29.99 right now on per-order.[/QUOTE]

Bloody hell, and they are letting me pay 50 euro's. Can anyone from SI please explain this to me. This pisses me off.

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[quote name='sd2500']Bloody hell, and they are letting me pay 50 euro's. Can anyone from SI please explain this to me. This pisses me off.[/QUOTE]

That's a question for Steam not SI, must admit that their regional pricing policy begs a lot of questions.

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[quote name='Kriss']You can play any save on any PC provided the save file is on it or on the Steam Cloud game save system. (don't use that personally)[/QUOTE]

I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise!

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[quote name='CaptainPlanet']Are FM saves cloud compatible?[/QUOTE]

Too big, I believe. Someone said the limit is 100mb earlier in the thread iirc.

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one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.

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[quote name='aaron70']You keep saying this. I and many others disagree. I have stated why before. Your opinion is nobody is getting screwed over, my is that some people are.

I really can't see why you seem to expect people to be loyal to the game? Why would I accept that a game has made a decision that I do not approve off. That is just asking for trouble. The game is there for us. We are not there for the game. As soon as we say to the manufacturer, "Do what you want because we will buy it anyway", they will continue to seek ways to do the gain the biggest profit without a care for the consumer. You have already seen that your argument that once you activate steam it can be turned off is false. Eventually a deal may be one that you have to be online or something more intrusive. Why? Because Steam runs on ads. The more the merrier for them. It is the nature of the beast.

Just searching about steam issues and problems is causing me to reinforce my stance of not getting FM12.[/QUOTE]

I dont expect anyone to be loyal to the game, its a false term really anyway, your a consumer of a product nothing more in the bigger scheme of things. You should accept it if you want to play FM12, otherwise say no and walk away, but your not going to change the decision for this years game. The more people who dont buy it, the more likely it is SI will look again, but dont kid yourself your being "loyal" by doing this.
I never once argued that steam could be turned off when playing FM, i know for a fact its not true i use steam for all my PC gaming. You can turn it to offline mode which i have repeated a few times, perhaps you misread my posts? You can also turn off all the pop up adds on steam, i never see them except for when i go into the steam store.

If you search for windows problems, you would never want to own windows, if you go looking for software problems it is easy, you could find an article on any piece of software that would put you off it, what counts is personal experience. In my opinion of course.

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[quote name='jptykes']Too big, I believe. Someone said the limit is 100mb earlier in the thread iirc.[/QUOTE]

Okay dokey, cheers.

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[quote name='Kriss']That's a question for Steam not SI, must admit that their regional pricing policy begs a lot of questions.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise![/QUOTE]

One account for one license to play FM, once it is licensed to one account it cannot be moved to another unless steam do it for you. So no your example would not be possible.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise![/QUOTE]
No there is no loophole. The activation code will be work once to associate the game with one Steam account that can only be used on one computer at a time simultaneously (You can still use your own account on multiple systems, e.g your desktop and laptop, just not at the same time)

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.[/QUOTE]

You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']one disk = one key = one activation

so you can give the disk to someone else, but that key disk is already activate.[/QUOTE]

But presumably if you also supply your Steam account details and they play offline...

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']I don't quite understand that. In fact I don't have any friends who play FM, but I hope you can see what I'm getting at; is there a loophole whereby one person purchases the game, installs, activates and starts a savegame, then gives the disc to someone else who asks for a new activation code, starts a savegame .... and so on?

If it works like that, you could have a string of saves played by different people on different computers, all off one sale - which obviously completely destroys the whole purpose of the exercise![/QUOTE]

Saved game files are transferable to any PC. They aren't limited by the account validation.

Installation and validation of the game is linked to your Steam account. So as long as you are logged in to your Steam account you can play FM.

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[quote name='sd2500']Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?[/QUOTE]

i would be wary, i would only suggest buying the game from a reputable source, even if its not Steam.

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The code activates the game for your steam account, not the computer.

You can't pass it on to a friend because the code is only valid for one steam account. But if you get a new computer, you can activate your steam account on that and you'll have access to all your games.

[edit: for context, it was a reply to [url=http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274801-A-Message-On-Football-Manager-2012-Activation?p=7089494&viewfull=1#post7089494]this post[/url], which several other people already answered while I was typing.]

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[quote name='jptykes']But presumably if you also supply your Steam account details and they play offline...[/QUOTE]

you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']
I never once argued that steam could be turned off when playing FM, i know for a fact its not true i use steam for all my PC gaming. You can turn it to offline mode which i have repeated a few times, perhaps you misread my posts? You can also turn off all the pop up adds on steam, i never see them except for when i go into the steam store.
.[/QUOTE]

K.. Apologies...I must have misread that at the time :)

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']What I'm not sure about is what happens if your [B]computer crashes and needs reformatting[/B], or you buy a new computer. [B]Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer?[/B] If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

I did. I just re-downloaded steam on the reformatted computer, logged in and re-downloaded FM.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?[/QUOTE]

save games are not linked to steam on the game is, save games can be moved and played on any computer, the same as if its installed through disk/

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[quote name='milnerpoint']you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.[/QUOTE]

Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']You're not getting it. YOU can get a new activation if you install the disk in a new computer. "YOU" could be a different person. So my question is, can the old savegame be continued if Steam is still installed but offline?


ABOVE answers: So how does Steam prevent you playing your savegame if you're offline?[/QUOTE]
You don't get a new activation if you install on a new computer, you just get access to your account which has the activation.

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[quote name='aaron70']K.. Apologies...I must have misread that at the time :)[/QUOTE]

not a problem at all, its a big thread :)

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[quote name='milnerpoint']you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.[/QUOTE]

But, then again, if you and your friend are playing the game with steam in offline mode... how can steam detect?

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']What I'm not sure about is what happens if your [B]computer crashes and needs reformatting[/B], or you buy a new computer. [B]Can the Steam activation be shifted to the new or reformatted computer?[/B] If you've bought the disc, have it, but can't play the game for those reasons, I think that would be really out of order. Can anyone clarify this scenario?[/QUOTE]

I did. I just re-downloaded steam on the reformatted computer, logged in and re-downloaded FM. After doing this:

[quote name='Kriss']The way it works is that if you access your Steam account from any different computer (or even browser) than the one you created your account with, it runs a little authentication script emailing you a one time only verification code.[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='milnerpoint']you could try, but if steam detects your account being logged into two different locations it will ban the account instantly and there will be no chance of them reversing the decision.[/QUOTE]

I've no intention of trying, I just thought that was the point phonmpenhandy was trying to make.

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[quote name='sd2500']Thanks Kriss i'll try to address steam about this. Do you have any idea Kriss how it comes that some websites can offer an activation code for 25€? And is it safe?[/QUOTE]

They cut profit margins to the minimum or even sell some as loss leaders.

Always best to ask on here if something looks too good, there's always somebody who's bought from there.

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[quote name='BenjC']You don't get a new activation if you install on a new computer, you just get access to your account which has the activation.[/QUOTE]

You also get the authentication email I mentioned (sent to the email address associated with the account)

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?[/QUOTE]

I would be wary of us going any further with this, it will be bordering on promoting illegal activities, the legal stance is one license one computer at a time, if anyone works around that its their business but be prepared, steam do not mess around, there will be no negotiating or excuse that your younger brother used it without you knowing, any tiny infringement of their rules will have you instantly and permanently banned with no chance of you getting your account back, they wont even discuss it with you.

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[quote name='phnompenhandy']Ah, maybe that nails it. Presumably the naughty person would need to have the savegame on a computer that NEVER accesses the internet. But then, couldn't they simply block the connection to Steam?[/QUOTE]

Each new computer Steam is on needs to go online once to validate the Steam account before you can go in to offline mode. Even if they aren't online at the same time it will flag up to Steam if multiple computers are being used for the same Steam account.

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[quote name='Keyzer Soze']But, then again, if you and your friend are playing the game with steam in offline mode... how can steam detect?[/QUOTE]

see my post above.

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[quote name='jptykes']I've no intention of trying, I just thought that was the point phonmpenhandy was trying to make.[/QUOTE]

yeah sorry i wasnt accusing you of anything :)

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[quote name='Kriss']You also get the authentication email I mentioned (sent to the email address associated with the account)[/QUOTE]
I know, it seemed like the original poster was trying to say you could get a new activation code for the game itself.

My mistake if he wasn't.

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I live in Germany and I have played the game for many years now, heck, I even bought multiple copies the last two years (could not wait for the disk to arrive...). It would be extremely disappointing not to be able to play FM anymore!
So: [B]Could somebody from SEGA please clarify what happens if I buy a copy in the UK and try to activate it from Germany, please?[/B]
Preventing people in Germany (and other countries?) to play the game will in effect mean you might loose more customers than you win by excluding the pirates...

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I would also like to state my displeasure in this news. As a paying customer of games past, I will now have to consider buying this version, whereas it would have been a no-brainer before.

That being said I'm sure sales of this version or future versions will not be noticeably impacted one way or another by this decision and sales will instead be dictated by how improved the game is. I would like to point out that the same method of DRM has been cracked before and will be again... I guess games companies are really naive and/or ignorant or they are being advised by DRM makers and being propagandized by them. The amount of time and money it takes to incorporate some elaborate DRM scheme into a game and developing or licensing the DRM itself surely can not make up for getting a few extra sales by the "guy who was smart enough to pirate the 'lesser' DRMed FMs but is absolutely flummoxed with this new DRM" demographic. And then they actually have to go and buy it rather than just giving up and moving on to something else. Also I would assume increased tech support costs for paying customers that don't know what to do too, plus the loss of outraged customers (which is negligible though IMHO). Anything else I'm forgetting? I would love to see real numbers (not propaganda or some hypothetical idealized guesstimated number like in the OP) behind all of these decisions because in my mind that don't make a lick of sense.

Do you not remember Assassin's Creed? What happened at the end? It was cracked (and made easier to play by the pirates). It's a tale as old as time (or at least video games). The only way you can avoid being pirated is if you are a really niche game with a somewhat decent DRM. That would leave you off the radar of the cracking groups but they may still crack it if they notice it. Of course this doesn't apply because FM is a huge game. No matter what the DRM FM puts in place it will be cracked. If you believe otherwise you need to step back into reality. How can you DRM supporters endorse wasting resources on this futile effort? I like to play in the MLS and I would rather they commit these resources to fixing that rather than trying to cynically squeeze a few more sales out of the game.

People will buy it if it's good. That's all you need to know.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Then you are no longer loyal, simple as, my local football team are rubbish, lose most weeks, only scored in two league games this season, but im loyal and go watch them every week, thats what i mean through good and bad, loyal people are not just there through what could be perceived as the good times, they are there through everything, even decisions they dont agree with because loyalty is sticking with something through thick and thin.

Again no one is screwing anyone over, not in the slightest, they are asking you to install a free program, nothing more. Anyone staying away is doing so by choice, not because SI have screwed you over.[/QUOTE]

Surely that's a completely different case ? I'm guessing and definitely hoping that your local football team whomever they may be don't go out every week to lose games purposely ? Well SI or SEGA or whatever have purposely made the decision that to play FM12 STEAM is a necessity.

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy FM12, infact when I submit this post I'll probably go find the cheapest offer and pre-order it ! However I really don't agree with this decision, I don't know the ins and outs of STEAM so I don't have a problem using it but for two years now I've came on these forums almost every day and have seen post after post after post, thread after thread after thread in which so many people have voiced their concerns, their general dislike and their refusal to allow STEAM anywhere near their device so there's no doubt in my mind SI/SEGA know how a vast majority of their customers feel about STEAM and as such I feel it's a poor decision in all. In saying that, I don't know any figures relating to projected sales with this measure being taken and I doubt this decision would have been made lightly so maybe to ensure the future of FM this decision as tough as it was had to be made.

My main problem here is the fact you need internet connection. While I'm no longer in this boat as I've had internet connection for a few years now, I'm 18 and started playing this game when I seen my cousin playing it nine years ago. I was a nine year old with a single mother, there was no internet connection in my house. Had I needed internet connection for FM back then I'd have had no chance. Not a chance in hell. And you could bet I'd have been pretty upset which would have put unnecessary pressure on my mum. Now I can guarentee despite the increase in households with internet connection there will still be a percentage of FM users no matter how big or small that will be in this predicament and thats just not fair. Maybe it's the fact that this percentage will be the latter rather than the former and projected sales will mean this loss of custom will be little more than a scratch in SEGA's sales. Although the argument that there are more options to connect to the internet outside of your home to download STEAM and use the offline option is it really ok to ask your customers to go out and pay £20-£30 and then go to the library or the internet café or use someone elses broadband before they can then play the game they paid for ? I should reitterate that STEAM is by no means my area of expertees but perhaps if someone owns an older computer the last thing they want to do is be downloading a piece of software they don't actually want ?

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[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]milnerpoint[/B] [URL="http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=7089247#post7089247"][IMG]http://community.sigames.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG][/URL]
Then you are no longer loyal, simple as, my local football team are rubbish, lose most weeks, only scored in two league games this season, but im loyal and go watch them every week, thats what i mean through good and bad, loyal people are not just there through what could be perceived as the good times, they are there through everything, even decisions they dont agree with because loyalty is sticking with something through thick and thin.[/QUOTE]

Going off topic, but it is an inappropriate analogy. My local team is Arsenal - the stadium is a ten minute walk away. I can't afford to watch them now the ticket prices are amongst the highest in the world. Does that make me disloyal?

Be clear, I am NOT saying FM is too expensive - I absolutely do not think that at all. i just mean your concept of loyalty is faulty here.
[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='huntelaar19']Surely that's a completely different case ? I'm guessing and definitely hoping that your local football team whomever they may be don't go out every week to lose games purposely ? [/QUOTE]


You would hope so, but it doesnt always seem that way from where im sitting!! :D

[quote name='huntelaar19']
Don't get me wrong, I'll buy FM12, infact when I submit this post I'll probably go find the cheapest offer and pre-order it ! However I really don't agree with this decision, I don't know the ins and outs of STEAM so I don't have a problem using it but for two years now I've came on these forums almost every day and have seen post after post after post, thread after thread after thread in which so many people have voiced their concerns, their general dislike and their refusal to allow STEAM anywhere near their device so [B]there's no doubt in my mind SI/SEGA know how a vast majority of their customers feel about STEAM[/B] and as such I feel it's a poor decision in all. In saying that, I don't know any figures relating to projected sales with this measure being taken and I doubt this decision would have been made lightly so maybe to ensure the future of FM this decision as tough as it was had to be made.
[/QUOTE]

your right, which is why they have gone this way, the forums make up a tiny proportion of FMer's and there is an even smaller number of forum users dead against it. Remember this thread and the others made are by large the same 50/60 posters over and over.

[quote name='huntelaar19']
My main problem here is the fact you need internet connection. While I'm no longer in this boat as I've had internet connection for a few years now, I'm 18 and started playing this game when I seen my cousin playing it nine years ago. I was a nine year old with a single mother, there was no internet connection in my house. Had I needed internet connection for FM back then I'd have had no chance. Not a chance in hell. And you could bet I'd have been pretty upset which would have put unnecessary pressure on my mum. Now I can guarentee despite the increase in households with internet connection there will still be a percentage of FM users no matter how big or small that will be in this predicament and thats just not fair. Maybe it's the fact that this percentage will be the latter rather than the former and projected sales will mean this loss of custom will be little more than a scratch in SEGA's sales. Although the argument that there are more options to connect to the internet outside of your home to download STEAM and use the offline option is it really ok to ask your customers to go out and pay £20-£30 and then go to the library or the internet café or use someone elses broadband before they can then play the game they paid for ? I should reitterate that STEAM is by no means my area of expertees but perhaps if someone owns an older computer the last thing they want to do is be downloading a piece of software they don't actually want ?[/QUOTE]

you have the choice before you buy the game, you have to decide then, "can i get internet to make this game work?" If not, dont buy it, Miles has said there will be a big warning pack on the game that will tell you this before you buy it.

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So you have the game installed on your desktop and your laptop. You forgot to log off the desktop and log in on your laptop. You mean that's it!! I lose access to my games I paid for without a chance of explanation....seriously.....Now this is sounding even worse!!

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[quote name='Stormwind City']I live in Germany and I have played the game for many years now, heck, I even bought multiple copies the last two years (could not wait for the disk to arrive...). It would be extremely disappointing not to be able to play FM anymore!
So: [B]Could somebody from SEGA please clarify what happens if I buy a copy in the UK and try to activate it from Germany, please?[/B]
Preventing people in Germany (and other countries?) to play the game will in effect mean you might loose more customers than you win by excluding the pirates...[/QUOTE]

Miles is getting this clarified and we'll hear eventually.

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