David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

[quote name='aaron70']Accepting corporate lies as the truth. That is what we are getting upset. Don't make up stories about "this is to stop pirates, "this is in the consumers best interest". This is too make more money. I get tired of companies lying through their teeth and expected better of SI.

People can mock and say "get over it", "this is normal", "[B]families shouldn't be able to play a game together[/B]", and if this is how the majority feels, than no wonder we are always gets ****ed up the ass by these companies.[/QUOTE]

Families can play the game together.

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[quote name='CaptainPlanet']Nope :)[/QUOTE]

Good to hear :thup:

[quote name='Eugene Tyson']Why don't people understand this? You activate the game through Steam. It's a one time activation. Once the game is installed, you just have to have Steam running, switch it to Offline mode.

I don't really see an issue with "Steam servers being 'unavailable'". After the 1 time activation you don't need to be connected to the Steam servers at all to play the game.[/QUOTE]

Well as Wakers pointed out last night, he wasn't able to access anything in his library at all due to 'Steam servers unavailable' popping up all the time, and I don't want that crap. I just want to play the bloody game.

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[quote name='Eugene Tyson']Why don't people understand this? You activate the game through Steam. It's a one time activation. Once the game is installed, you just have to have Steam running, switch it to Offline mode.

I don't really see an issue with "Steam servers being 'unavailable'". After the 1 time activation you don't need to be connected to the Steam servers at all to play the game.[/QUOTE]

Why don't you understand that "offline" mode is temperamental and doesn't always work?

Twice this year I have needed to use offline mode and twice this year it has failed to work.

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well, I wait to be convinced this is a good move.

I will try it though before totally brushing it off, but bet you when I get the game, want to activate and play, the steam site will down due thousands of people trying to register their games and their site crashes. Hope this offline works out, as I hate any kind of need to go on-line for gaming.

remember we've had to register to steam for demos, so really hope activating the actual game is a straight forward as it's being made to sound.

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[quote name='metal_guitarist']Well as Wakers pointed out last night, he wasn't able to access anything in his library at all due to 'Steam servers unavailable' popping up all the time, and I don't want that crap. I just want to play the bloody game.[/QUOTE]

You won't have that issue with FM12.

[LIST=1]
[*]The game will be installed.
[*]You activate it once.
[*]Once that is done, switch Steam to offline mode.
[/LIST]


It won't need to access Steam servers again. Once you are logged in under the account that you registered with Steam.

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[quote name='aaron70']Milner. I do understand this. I am saying not everybody will be able to do this. My main point is that the reason giving for doing this is either a lie or a shocking display of intelligence. The reasons given are unfounded. This is solely being done to make more money. So don't lie to people with half a brain. Sega/SI are just doing what all these companies do; smile and say we love you, whilst doing whatever to get your dollar, even to the point of lying outright. Why did they announce this after thousands of pre sales? Tired off it, so FM11 will do me.[/QUOTE]]

Unfounded? I guess you are privy to the figures SI has then? Dont listen to everything XB42 says, he makes good points but he is not always right. The switch to steam does not guarentee more money, they hope it will, but as you can see from this thread it runs the risk of backfiring, so that point is completely moot. You are also insulting a lot of people with your post, honestly calm down a bit, maybe take a break from this forum and situation for a few days and think about it rationally, no one is screwing you, no one is putting a gun to your head, and no one is taking the **** out of you, its simply a decision made by a compay to help protect their product, remember us fans dont own FM, we are customers, nothing more, if you dont like it dont buy their product, but please stop with this "SI are screwing the loyal customers" nonsense. Loyal customers buy the game no matter what, steam or not.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.[/QUOTE]

None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']We don't need to know those options. What SI apparently didn't do was provide an alternative, or take a stance against the 'options' they were forced to 'choose' from.[/QUOTE]

Do you just ignore any post that doesnt back up your point??
Miles said they looked at every single possible solution and this was the best one they were left with, they went through every alternative before settling on steam.

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[quote name='The Welsh Lad']None of use were in the meeting, SI could have given alternatives and SEGA batted them down, If you in a meetig with your boss and he asks you for ideas and opinions and still picks his own, you may not be happy but you still got to sing from the same hymn sheet. If you didn't agree with the boss are you going to turn around and say fine if you want it that way I'm off, and walk out.[/QUOTE]

Would have loved that thread from SI.

"Hi guys, we didn't want to put in DRM but we've been told by Sega to do so. Sorry everyone we tried to fight them on this but they wouldn't listen!"

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TBH I am not the biggest fan of steam, I have previously purchased games and had to install via steam which at the time seemed ok, however i did find steam slowed my machine quite considerably.

I have since changed to a MBP and a friend of mine thinks steam makes no difference to the running speed on his machine.

I am not against anti piracy, in fact i think it is a good idea, but why force people to use software they do not want to use. There seems to be a big anti-steam vibe going on at the moment and could mean a lot of fans are going to walk away from the game they love.

I can see many long term fans not buying the game this year!

so what is worse, lose a massive section of the fan base, where the majority buy the game legitimately or stop a handful of pirates?

if it was my company i would want to keep my loyal fans who repeatedly by the game year after year.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']But there is, it provides DRM for FM12, without it FM12 will not work, just like directx or anything else, this is now part of the system requirements.[/QUOTE]

Oh come on, that's not the same. A single method of DRM is not required for a game to work - you can easily make a game without any DRM, but you can't easily make a game without using directx, and its impossible to make one that doesn't require the help of drivers.

That was my point and you both know it.

I'm getting quite sick of this particular method of purposefully mis-reading or misinterpreting someone's point. It's pathetic. That's all anyone has been able to do throughout the entire thread when someone makes a valid point, and it comes from moderators (more than one) too.

If you can't bother to think of a reasonable argument, then just don't post anything, instead of trying to argue a point in someone's post that they never made in the first case.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']Why don't you understand that "offline" mode is temperamental and doesn't always work?[/Quote]

People seem to be confusing what actually happens and how Steam is involved.

It seems to me that people think they have to play FM12 through steam and that their games will be stored online and not installed or saved to their computer.


That is not the case. All you have to do is have Steam running and Activate the game once online.


You still need Steam running and logged in under the user account, but you don't need it to be online, you can switch it to offline mode.


There are three inconveniences here
[LIST=1]
[*]Install Steam
[*]Activate game through Steam
[*]Have Steam always running when playing FM12
[/LIST]


The first one seems to be bugging people immensely. I agree that installing a 3rd party software to play a game is annoying. But they are trying to get people to stop pirating, which I don't think this method will work, but that's neither here nor there.

The second one - people are confusing Activating through Steam with always having to be connected to the Steam Servers. You don't have be connected after you've Activated the game.

And the last one - you have to have Steam running when you play FM12 - and you can play it in Offline Mode. If you aren't planning to play FM12 then you can quit out of Steam and use your computer for other things. If you want to play FM12 then you need to log into Steam.



People are confusing the issue with Steam and how it works. And blowing it way out of proportion.

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[quote name='aaron70']Accepting corporate lies as the truth. That is what we are getting upset. Don't make up stories about "this is to stop pirates, "this is in the consumers best interest". [B]This is too make more mone[/B]y. I get tired of companies lying through their teeth and expected better of SI.

People can mock and say "get over it", "this is normal", "families shouldn't be able to play a game together", and if this is how the majority feels, than no wonder we are always gets ****ed up the ass by these companies.[/QUOTE]

Of course this is to make more money, by forcing people to keep to the EULA agreement. It may also have the effect of forcing a few people who play a pirated copy to buy the game legally. But some of the extra money make will be re-invested back into the game by hiring more staff and buying more licenses.

I see no reason to be upset unless I was one of those who were breaking the EULA agreement by playing a copy of the game registered with Steam and giving the CD to some one else to play. They really can't have a complaint about this decision, they've been breaking the law for years with older versions of the game and it's about time that there were some repercussions of that.


IMO Steam is a piece of useless crap and I hate using it, but if it lets me play FM12 then I'll put up with it.

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[quote name='The Welsh Lad']If it was all about money, why are we not being charged for using steam. If you don't buy anything from steam they will make no money from, if anything SEGA would have to pay Steam for the use to allow everyone to activate through Steam.[/QUOTE]

Eh no, SEGA will without a doubt have gotten a pretty good deal from Valve for the exclusive rights to FM. They don't have to charge money for us using Steam, as they make plenty of cash from other entry points. For example, they have ad banners plastered all over the client.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']Why don't you understand that "offline" mode is temperamental and doesn't always work?

Twice this year I have needed to use offline mode and twice this year it has failed to work.[/QUOTE]

If you've followed the instructions for setting it up in the Steam help pages and it still fails it's an error, have you reported it to Steam?

I just read them for the first time and it seems there is the possibility for a fail if you haven't followed that procedure.

I don't say that's the cause of your issue, just that it might be as I certainly wasn't aware of the exact requirement even though I haven't had an issue.

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Don't respond to Eugene. You can tell him something in simple English in one sentence and he will still reply to it as if you've said something else entirely, like he just did there.

Eugene - Steam offline mode is not 100% reliable, that was the point he made.

Are you gonna start banging on about how I said it was a major security risk again? Even though the whole forum could see that that was nothing like the point I was making?

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Some people really need to get a grip.

It's just a tiny program that runs in the background. That's all it is. It doesn't affect anything, it doesn't cause any problems, it doesn't make the game run any worse. It's just a small program that stops people from stealing the game.

It's nothing major.

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Oh...goodness...I am not even angry whilst typing. I have thought about this for three days. I have worked in fields that have had issues with piracy. That is enough to know what is being said is at best misleading. We all know there will be a pirated version within a week or two.

The only people I am insulting is Sega/SI who I feel are insulting me. I am surely not insulting you? In fact, as I said, I understand where you are coming from. However,I still do not see anything to suggest that Sega/SI are aiming to make life easier for their consumers here. They are therefore either lying or are idiots.

I agree as well that perhaps this will backfire. If it does, it is solely down to their choices and behaviour. Steam fine, but surely it would have been logical to have another option.
"Loyal customers buy the game no matter what, steam or not" - even if they are getting screwed...this is my whole point and what Sega/SI are planning on.

I will step back from this thread as it appears I am offending others who do not work for Sega/SI which is not my intention. Perhaps my wording is too strong, but I am tired of companies basically treating customers with contempt. It makes me sad rather than angry after playing this series of games for so many years. No consultation, no warning, than misleading statements to top it off.

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[quote name='Wakers']Oh come on, that's not the same. A single method of DRM is not required for a game to work - you can easily make a game without any DRM, but you can't easily make a game without using directx, and its impossible to make one that doesn't require the help of drivers.

That was my point and you both know it.

I'm getting quite sick of this particular method of purposefully mis-reading or misinterpreting someone's point. It's pathetic. That's all anyone has been able to do throughout the entire thread when someone makes a valid point, and it comes from moderators (more than one) too.

If you can't bother to think of a reasonable argument, then just don't post anything, instead of trying to argue a point in someone's post that they never made in the first case.[/QUOTE]

My point is still valid, now steam is a system requirement, technically it is needed as it is the chosen form of DRM, your right it could be made with others, but its not. Yes they can make a game without DRM, but we both know its not viable, and likely to put them out of business. There is no need to get so worked up over my post, it was valid and in no way ment to to have a go at you or anything, it is a reasonable point as far as im concerned.

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[quote name='Eugene Tyson']You won't have that issue with FM12.

[LIST=1]
[*]The game will be installed.
[*]You activate it once.
[*]Once that is done, switch Steam to offline mode.
[/LIST]


It won't need to access Steam servers again. Once you are logged in under the account that you registered with Steam.[/QUOTE]

Then I very much hope so, but as has been proved, offline mode isn't reliable.

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in an ideal world we would have the chance to uninstall steam after activation! Unfortunately this is not the case, and we will have to continue with steam installed, even though he no longer good for anything!

Unfortunately these are the rules of business, and we have to understand steam corporation. After all they are doing the best for their business.

For my part, as I said at the beginning, i rather had the chance to remove steam after installation, I think it would be a "cleaner" process for all. It is not the case ... okay!

It's FM, it's the only game i play, it's the only game i want to play!

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[quote name='David - SEGA']Hi, Yes Steam will need to remain installed. However this offers great benefits such as top quality download speeds, automatic updates & achievements to track you progress[/QUOTE]

[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']But I don't want those 'great benefits'.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly pigface.

David, I just had to comment as soon as I read your post, why are you trying to spruik benefits that are absolutely pish?

Really, achievements in FM, what were they before?....lets see. Win a game. Do not concede in a game. Really pointless......and in any case this is just for little kids under 12 to brag about to their mates who play it nothing more.

Secondly, I would rather download an update myself, rather than having steam do it automatically for me, it is really annoying when you want to start up the game and there is an update waiting, as well as the fact you may not want the update or you want to uninstall it. This in turn leads to wasted usage for people on limited bandwidth also.

Lastly, top quality download speeds??? Wow, I can get those from any decent server

Other than that I have no issue with activating through STEAM to combat piracy, but really David, great marketing gimmick!

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[quote name='mantralux']Eh no, SEGA will without a doubt have gotten a pretty good deal from Valve for the exclusive rights to FM. They don't have to charge money for us using Steam, as they make plenty of cash from other entry points. For example, they have ad banners plastered all over the client.[/QUOTE]

FM isnt exclusive to steam at all, you just need it to activate the game, exclusive would have ment the game had to bought through steam.

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Also the point that Steam apparently (I haven't seen this personally, because I'm never in offline mode for so long) try and get online if you run it in offline mode for a certain amount of time (believed to be around 30 days or so)

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[quote name='Wakers']Don't respond to Eugene. You can tell him something in simple English in one sentence and he will still reply to it as if you've said something else entirely, like he just did there.

Eugene - Steam offline mode is not 100% reliable, that was the point he made.

Are you gonna start banging on about how I said it was a major security risk again? Even though the whole forum could see that that was nothing like the point I was making?[/QUOTE]

You were banging on about "people should be aware of security issues" which was a good point, but you made it seem like that Steam had serious security issues with your wording, which in turn causes misinformation about the product. It was you that twisted your own words, not me.


And my point is about how people are confusing how Steam works.


I'm not aware of any offline issues with Steam. How is it unreliable for FM12? I don't see how it can be? Once it's activated it logged with Steam, so once it's running the game should load fine.


We'll just have to see when FM12 comes out. I suspect there'll be a few people with issues with Steam. But nothing significant or that can't be fixed.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']My point is still valid, now steam is a system requirement, technically it is needed as it is the chosen form of DRM, your right it could be made with others, but its not. Yes they can make a game without DRM, but we both know its not viable, and likely to put them out of business. There is no need to get so worked up over my post, it was valid and in no way ment to to have a go at you or anything, it is a reasonable point as far as im concerned.[/QUOTE]

You honestly think FM hasn't been turning a major profit the last few years? They could release the game without any DRM and still make money. Probably not enough for Sega's liking (seeing as they bleed money from every possible outlet), but if the best selling game in the UK and most of Europe [B]each year[/B] doesn't make a profit then there's some horrible mis-management going on somewhere.

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[quote name='metal_guitarist']Then I very much hope so, but as has been proved, offline mode isn't reliable.[/QUOTE]

Some people have had problems with it, some haven't ever, that's not proof of anything other than that Steam need to address any proven problems with the help of the people having those problems.

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[quote name='Eugene Tyson']You were banging on about "people should be aware of security issues" which was a good point,[B] but you made it seem like that Steam[/B] had serious security issues with your wording, which in turn causes misinformation about the product. It was you that twisted your own words, not me.


And my point is about how people are confusing how Steam works.


I'm not aware of any offline issues with Steam. How is it unreliable for FM12? I don't see how it can be? Once it's activated it logged with Steam, so once it's running the game should load fine.


We'll just have to see when FM12 comes out. I suspect there'll be a few people with issues with Steam. But nothing significant or that can't be fixed.[/QUOTE]

Absolute bollocks. Stop saying that. That is how you chose to read it, despite me saying about 20 times, in the clearest way possible that it is an issue with [B]any online service[/B] and not just Steam.

Of course, you won't take that in either.

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Games I currently play and 3rd party applications I have to use or sites I have to register on to play the game:

Company of Heroes - Relic Online Account and Software that has to run whilst the game is
Battlefield: Bad Company 2 - Registered Account
Sins of a Solar Empire - Stardock Impulse Account and Software that has to run whilst the game is
Any MMO - Registered full account details online and Launcher Software that has to run whilst the game is
The Sims 3 (for the missus obviously) - Registered account and launcher software that has to run whilst the game is

As well as countless other smaller games that are only available through Steam, Impulse, Origin or bought through Direct2Drive and similar sites.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']The editor is not run through steam, it is completely separate so it will never affect you :)[/QUOTE]

Would you please tell me how you know this?

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[quote name='metal_guitarist']Then I very much hope so, but as has been proved, offline mode isn't reliable.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately some people will have issues with Steam. But hopefully those issues can be resolved. The only way to make Steam aware of them is to go their forums/support pages and figure out a solution.


Similarly, if for example, if SI didn't use Steam at all, then some people would have issues installing and playing FM12. They did for FM11 and FM10 and FM09 and FM08 and FM07 and etc.


Some people's computers work differently.

This is the first time they're using Online Activation through Steam. And I for one will give them a chance and I think it will work out great.


If it doesn't then SI, Sega and Steam will have a lot to answer for.

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[quote name='Wakers']You honestly think FM hasn't been turning a major profit the last few years? They could release the game without any DRM and still make money. Probably not enough for Sega's liking (seeing as they bleed money from every possible outlet), but if the best selling game in the UK and most of Europe [B]each year[/B] doesn't make a profit then there's some horrible mis-management going on somewhere.[/QUOTE]

Come on, release a game without protection? Not even music CD's are released without some sort of protection. Sadly in the world we live it is needed, it may not stop piracy, but it does put less knowledgeable people off, removing that would be suicide.

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[quote name='metal_guitarist']Then I very much hope so, but as has been proved, offline mode isn't reliable.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have had to save my password/username in the steam login to use offline mode. It should not be an issue to login if I want to use offline mode once it is activated. At least that is how I remembered it previously for FM10.

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[quote name='Wakers']Absolute bollocks. Stop saying that. That is how you chose to read it, despite me saying about 20 times, in the clearest way possible that it is an issue with [B]any online service[/B] and not just Steam.

Of course, you won't take that in either.[/QUOTE]

You'll have to watch your language.

I answered you based on what you wrote. You questioned the "security of Steam" quite a lot that day. I thought you used poor wording then, compared to the explanation you gave after the fact.

All I can do is apologise for not understanding what you meant at the time. I understand where you're coming from now.

Please don't talk to me in that tone again. I am trying to respond to you with respect and understanding, and I ask the same of you, or any member here.

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[quote name='caple10']Some people really need to get a grip.

It's just a tiny program that runs in the background. That's all it is. It doesn't affect anything, it doesn't cause any problems, it doesn't make the game run any worse. It's just a small program that stops people from stealing the game.

It's nothing major.[/QUOTE]
It's a tiny that I cannot get access to, I have an account with Steam, actually I have 2 linked to my email account, dating back to when SI first started to use Steam but after the 2009 issues I uninstalled it & haven't used it since. After the announcement I decided that to be fair I should give it a go by letting it sit in offline mode for a while so I can assess its impact on my daily PC use, the problem I am having is that I cannot access my account(s) or successfully reset my password.

I have emailed valve customer support to see if they can allow me access to my current accounts or delete them so that I will feel comfortable in creating another new one, if they are unwilling or unable to assist then I will be minded to give up on the whole process.

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[quote name='mantralux']Eh no, SEGA will without a doubt have gotten a pretty good deal from Valve for the exclusive rights to FM. They don't have to charge money for us using Steam, as they make plenty of cash from other entry points. For example, they have ad banners plastered all over the client.[/QUOTE]

Has long has you turn off notifications is the settings you wont see them. But hay if It doesn't cost me anything to use Steam, I dont have a problem wih SEGA making money it wil go into helping develope the game.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']Would you please tell me how you know this?[/QUOTE]

Because i have used steam with FM since 2009, and steam does not start when you open the editor. If steam does not start you will never need it to use the editor and hence he will never have an issue unless his computer breaks :)

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[quote name='CaptainPlanet']I would bet that more people have failures due to drivers than from using Steam. As far as point of failures go.[/quote]

It's not an argument of "more" - it's an argument about another point-of-failure.

[quote name='CaptainPlanet']And "personal" information taken from Steam is a very woolly argument that has little to no substance. You're more likely to lose personal information from visiting a java website than through being signed up to Steam. You can't even buy anything online without having to register any more, and given that the majority of people will probably FM online they have already had to submit their details over a hackable connection, using a hackable client to a hackable website who might well on the sly sell your details on to someone dodgy anyway. Registering for Steam (where you don't have to even use actual personal information) is hardly a noticeable increased risk.[/quote]

Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?

In-transit attacks are of course present over any online system but I'm talking about Steam as a point-of-failure.

[quote name='CaptainPlanet']The rest of your post is telling SI what their sales figures will do, which I'm sure they're grateful for your input having clearly done zero research at all their end. ;)[/QUOTE]

I have huge doubts about the video game (and media in general) industries doing research about piracy. Independent research is mixed at best.

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First of all, I don't mind using steam. What bothers me though is that I, being Belgian,have to pay 50€ for the game, while other countries pay 30 or 35€.
That is pure discrimination. Can someone explain me how this is possible? It's totally unfair. I don't mind paying for a product, but I do mind paying more than ,for example, an fellow American gamer. That said, I will be looking to buy a activation code elsewhere (found them for 25€). Can anybody confirm that it is safe to buy an activation code from another website? Looking forward to playing FM12

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[quote name='Kriss']If you've followed the instructions for setting it up in the Steam help pages and it still fails it's an error, have you reported it to Steam?

I just read them for the first time and it seems there is the possibility for a fail if you haven't followed that procedure.

I don't say that's the cause of your issue, just that it might be as I certainly wasn't aware of the exact requirement even though I haven't had an issue.[/QUOTE]


How do you report it when you don't have internet access at the time you have the issue?

I have no problems getting "offline" mode to work most of the time but the two occasions I needed it to work it failed.

TBH I'm getting rather sick of the "I'm alright Jack attitude of those users who have never had a problem" The fact is a minority of users encounter problems, some only once, some several times & some regularly. FM sold over 1,000,000 copies last year even if just 1% of users have a Steam issue thats 10,000 users who will be unable to play FM for a portion of time due to Steam.

I get the feeling I've posted a bit too much in this thread so I'll just sum up the reasons I won't be purchasing FM and leave it there:

A) A third party program running constantly when I want to play FM
B) SI/Sega having no control over Steam support and they offer little advice when users have a Steam issue
C) Steam terms & conditions of use
D) There are question marks over my consumer rights as a UK based user of Steam


Just for clarification I in no way endorse pirating of a product and am not against online activation of a product. Twice this year I have purchased a PC game that required online activation and neither have required Steam.

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[quote name='Kriss']Some people have had problems with it, some haven't ever, that's not proof of anything other than that Steam need to address any proven problems with the help of the people having those problems.[/QUOTE]

True, but it's still a fairly major issue. If a piece of software isn't doing as I'm telling it to when it should, then there's a problem somewhere. If it's 1 or 2 people, you could put that down to human error, or a corrupt install etc. If you have 10 people having the same issue, then it's obvious that there's a bigger problem that needs to be fixed.

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[quote name='x42bn6']
Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?
[/QUOTE]

if you buy the cd game steam will never have your credit card info, you can use a made up hotmail account not linked to you in any real way.

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[quote name='Herter']Good for you - its good to see the good in bad situations :)[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day it is only a game, disappointed that i will not be able to play the new versions because i refuse to install steam, but hardly the end of the world is it.

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[quote name='sd2500']First of all, I don't mind using steam. What bothers me though is that I, being Belgian,have to pay 50€ for the game, while other countries pay 30 or 35€.
That is pure discrimination. Can someone explain me how this is possible? It's totally unfair. I don't mind paying for a product, but I do mind paying more than ,for example, an fellow American gamer. That said, I will be looking to buy a activation code elsewhere (found them for 25€). Can anybody confirm that it is safe to buy an activation code from another website? Looking forward to playing FM12[/QUOTE]

You can buy the game on disc and when you pop the disc in it will install through Steam. That way you may find the game cheaper through a local game shop.

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[I]Apparently it's International "talk like a pirate" day, so here goes....

"Right folks, i have Transformers 3, Harry Potter and Smurfs dvds, 5 quid each.."[/I]


Courtesy of sickipedia. Thought it was appropriate for this thread :)

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Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. [B]People who have bandwidth quotas[/B] - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. [B]Mac users[/B] - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power [I]when idling[/I]. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. [B]People with no internet access[/B] - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. [B]People with blocked access[/B] - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. [B]Potentially everyone*[/B] - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

6. [B]Pirates[/B] - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Dont listen to everything XB42 says, he makes good points but he is not always right.[/quote]

Feel free to point out where.

[quote name='milnerpoint']but please stop with this "SI are screwing the loyal customers" nonsense. Loyal customers buy the game no matter what, steam or not.[/QUOTE]

:D:D:D If SI decided to require you to enter provide real-life identities, credit card information and bank account details, would you be using the same argument ("Loyal customers buy the game no matter what!")?

We [b]were[/b] loyal customers. SI [b]are[/b] screwing us over. We [b]aren't[/b] loyal any more as a result.

We don't have to accept what we perceive as a sub-standard product - we have no [b]duty[/b] of loyalty to SI. We are simply customers who have bought the product in the past, but are unhappy about the future.

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[quote name='mantralux']Just to summarise, these are the users that will be affected by this decision;

1. [B]People who have bandwidth quotas[/B] - even though you don't have to download the game directly from Steam, all patches will come exclusively through Steam. You can turn off automatic updates, but that's all the control you have - you can't, for example, download a patch on another computer, put it on a USB stick and bring it to the computer hooked up to the line with the bandwidth quota. The only way to patch is to turn on Steam on the actual computer you need the patch on.

2. [B]Mac users[/B] - even though some might have little problem with it, the fact still remains that the Mac client is a horribly bloated version of the PC client that draws more resources than software considered foreground applications. My client is on 150-200mb memory and draws 2-3% processor power [I]when idling[/I]. Which is fine from my end, as I have plenty of horsepower...but to be honest, a background client shouldn't even come close to those numbers, and only proves how little Valve actually cares about the Mac users.

3. [B]People with no internet access[/B] - the solution here seems to be to bring your computer to a connection point to at least activate the game. That's fine, but problem from point #1 still remains though; you can't get any patches without your actual computer connected to the internet.

4. [B]People with blocked access[/B] - many are stuck at connection points that have blocked the access to certain outlets, Steam included.

5. [B]Potentially everyone*[/B] - when Steam is working, there will be no problems. But as soon as something goes wrong, we'll be stuck with Valve's notoriously horrid customer support, and even though Sports Interactive are excellent in this department, they can do nothing about it (and have no control whatsoever, no matter how much they try to tell themselves that they do), leaving us users with a huge headache. Granted, this might never happen, but that's unrealistic thinking. I've already had at least 10+ incidents with my Steam client in the last year or so.

6. [B]Pirates[/B] - but not really.

Did I miss anyone?[/QUOTE]

7. People who just don't want 3rd party applications on their computer to run a game that has never been dependant on it before?

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[quote name='x42bn6']It's not an argument of "more" - it's an argument about another point-of-failure.[/quote]

Another that is comparable to ones that already exist. With the amount of points of failure between hardware, software and users, one more isn't significant enough to be a concern

[quote name='x42bn6'] Wrong - Steam itself can be hacked. Username and password details can be obtained through hacking. Steam uses your credit card - if you've used Steam before to purchase things, FM becomes an attack vector (once logged in to Steam, an exploit has access) - is FM secure in this respect?

In-transit attacks are of course present over any online system but I'm talking about Steam as a point-of-failure.[/quote]

With what record? How many times has it happened for it to be a quantifiable risk and how big a risk? It's basic risk assessment criteria, how often is it likely to happen (based on future forecasts and previous events), how many people is it likely to affect and on what scale. Simply "it might happen" is again not a significant enough concern.

[quote name='x42bn6'] I have huge doubts about the video game (and media in general) industries doing research about piracy. Independent research is mixed at best.[/QUOTE]

Thankfully listening to your forum posts will change their minds over their own internal or paid for external research.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']

A) A third party program running constantly when I want to play FM
B) SI/Sega having no control over Steam support and they offer little advice when users have a Steam issue
C) Steam terms & conditions of use
D) There are question marks over my consumer rights as a UK based user of Steam


Just for clarification I in no way endorse pirating of a product and am not against online activation of a product. Twice this year I have purchased a PC game that required online activation and neither have required Steam.[/QUOTE]

Fair points.

I will be purchasing the game. And I will use it for the time that I can. If I find the game failing due to Steam not working, or that Steam is too much of a memory hog etc. I will use my customer rights to get a refund if I cannot issues resolved. And I'll be sure to let SI, SEGA and Steam know about it.


But I'm at least going to give it a try. I'm not overly concerned with points B to D.


If this doesn't work due to Steam, there will be a lot to answer for by SI, Sega and Steam.

But I suspect it will be fine.

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