David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,125 posts in this topic

[quote name='Cougar2010']It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.[/QUOTE]
Then I can confirm that to not be the case. :) I lose connectivity regularly on one of my laptops because I keep poking the WLAN on/off switch on it by mistake, and Steam will simply do nothing until I log out and want to log back in again. You can even close and launch games freely until logging out. I'm not sure if the login session will eventually expire, but for the hours or so I've been offline it's worked fine.

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']The game requires an internet connection to authenticate. So if someone has no internet connection, nor the possibility of getting one (such as a hotspot), then no.



I spoke about that at the bottom of my post - it's something that is an unanswered question that I don't know the answer to, that hopefully SEGA will find out and get back to people on. In South Korea particularly, the game will be available via Steam, although the Korean releases are often later than those in the West. Whether you'll be able to buy the UK version, or not, is something that SEGA need to answer.[/QUOTE]


You're a legend Miles. Thank you very much for that response, made my day hearing that it will be available over here in Korea, have been worried all weekend! Will just have to keep on at Sega about the details of it.

Thanks a lot, keep up the good work.

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[quote name='leftback in the changing room']Miles: Thanks for taking the time to reply. There's a few points in there that I concur with and a few that will only spark further debate, possibly over the best place to buy a seed-free sandwich.

However you have posted two questions that need answering. I would be grateful if you could answer these two as well, as they are important in relation to the customer experience using Steam:

1) "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature"

2) "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?
[I] Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but even with FM 'relatively small' updates: for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. [B]And it will render their purchase unplayable[/B] until they are able to complete the patch download.[/I]

3) Can you assure your customers that all patches will be 100% save game compatible in all territories? Because all hell will break loose if a patch that people have no choice whether to install or not crashes or unbalances their long-term saves.[/QUOTE]

1) No - the patches would only work going through that system.
2) I'm pretty sure there is a way to stop this, and that's been put on this thread, but it'll be looked into and if there is a way, we'll let you know when we build up an FAQ.
3) I can assure that we always do our level best to ensure that that is the case, and I don't think we've had a patch for many, many years that has required a new game to be started. I can't recall that happening at all in my time here.

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']This forum being the teacup you mean?[/QUOTE]

You're clearly unfamiliar with figurative speech.

[QUOTE]How many of all the people who don't know of this decision are likely to be disappointed come purchase time, to see the activation requirements or worse still not see them till it's too late[/QUOTE]

Miles stated that the requirements will be made extremely clear, SI can't be held responsible for people's negligence or inability to read.

[QUOTE]There's a couple of potentially many storms outside the teacup[/QUOTE]

This makes sense [ ]

[QUOTE]and quite frankly I am disgusted with your "I'm Alright Jack" attitude[/QUOTE]

I don't care. Frankly I'm a little amused by your attitude.

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[quote name='Scab']Then I can confirm that to not be the case. :) I lose connectivity regularly on one of my laptops because I keep poking the WLAN on/off switch on it by mistake, and Steam will simply do nothing until I log out and want to log back in again. You can even close and launch games freely until logging out. I'm not sure if the login session will eventually expire, but for the hours or so I've been offline it's worked fine.[/QUOTE]

Yes I've just tested it and it seems to carry on ok.

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[quote name='mantralux']Miles; even though Valve might be easy to work with for you guys, doesn't mean they're easy to work from a customer perspective. You do remember us, the customers right? Steam's support is notoriously horrible, and there is absolutely nothing SEGA can help me with if there is any problems with my Steam client (which there is, a lot).

And if the argument is that Steam would prevent pirates from releasing the game earlier than release date - release it on Steam first, and then release it conventionally after a week or so = problem solved.[/QUOTE]

As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.

[quote name='Barkermush']I don't like the fact that we have to keep Steam installed after activating..

I don't mind having to activate the game, saves SI and Sega money and stops pirates. :thup:

But why can't it be like FM09? Where we could register the game online over the internet, without having to install steam..[/QUOTE]

Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.

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If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.



Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, and not be obtrusive to the customer.

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.[/QUOTE]

Steam customer support in my opinion is rubbish and very very slow.................Sega's isn't much better in my opinion and when I have had to use it................pile on the fact that everyone will be getting the game in the same period could = massive problems and poor customer service with the game unplayable.

There are other options out there you just haven't chosen them and I don't think you have put your customers anywhere near the centre of the circle you have drawn, you have put your greed dead centre and sod everyone else if they don't like what you can offer.

You are penalising the legal users of the game for the pirates, thanks.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.[/QUOTE]

i just turned my wifi off when fm was running and did not get kicked out, the issue you would have would be starting the game again if you closed it down. Hopefully that eases one or two concerns :)

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[quote name='Cougar2010']Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?[/QUOTE]

This, absolutely.

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[quote name='dafuge']If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?[/QUOTE]

We removed the need for Uniloc in FM09 by releasing a patch much later on. But it's different with Steam, because it's intertwined with the game, so it's unlikely, unless Steam was to shut down.

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']
2) I'm pretty sure there is a way to stop this, and that's been put on this thread, but it'll be looked into and if there is a way, we'll let you know when we build up an FAQ.
[/QUOTE]

This question hasn't been answered. It [B]is [/B]possible to change your settings so that the game doesn't automatically update, once it has been installed and sitting on the hard drive for a while. What isn't clear is that will you be able to avoid Steam downloading the most recent patch as soon as you activate.

This is the difference between people with slow internet connections being able to register and play the game albeit in release version only, and not being able to play it [B]at all[/B]. It negates a few of the workarounds, like using your telephone's data allowace as a pseudo-modem.

Still, thanks for replying and I look forward to seeing the reponse. I'm afraid that I won't be purchasing FM12, but it may make the difference for many other users. Steam is designed for people with fast, always-on broadband connections who want to total flexibility; neo luddites like me with low speed, limited download internet access on one fairly elderly-yet-still-capable desktop will have a decision to make. Best of luck with the release, and I'll always have FM07 to tide me over.

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Miles I have been a loyal customer for the past 10+ years, a close friend of mine is a researcher for Italy and I was always happy to try giving a little help, I also tried to help with some translation issues (which still persist but never mind...) and always followed the community (had to sign with a new account after the recent "technical problems" as I found it easier).

FM is really the only videogame I play, maybe if I was a teenager I couldn't live without steam and all its wonders but that's not the case. In the best case, for me steam would only be a useless piece of software that needs to run in the background to play ONE videogame, and that's the same for most of my friends that still play FM. We're old and grumpy, I know.

Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.

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[quote name='Cougar2010']Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?[/QUOTE]

it will, just like it tells you that you need directx and any other 3rd party programmes that appear to be ok compared to steam.

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[quote name='nessi']
Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.[/QUOTE]

can i ask why? This is not me attmepting to convert you before Akter gets himself in a twist, i am just interersted what it is in the agreement you would not sign.

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Thanks for answering Miles. Glad you weren't hurt in that accident.

As I've said, I don't like the removal of choice from the customers. I'll still be purchasing and installing via Steam, even though I don't like the decision. Hopefully in the next couple of years a better alternative comes up that brings back some choice to the customers.

Well done for insisting on the "requires internet connection to activate" note being slabbed on the front of the pack. Not enough publishers do this.

Regarding the Steam licensing agreement - it has quite a few lines that are very, very scary but are mostly there just to cover themselves from class action lawsuits in the US. Honestly, if people read the license agreement for anything they would think twice about installing it/purchasing it. That applies to Operating Systems, games consoles, office software and so on.

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[quote name='nessi']Miles I have been a loyal customer for the past 10+ years, a close friend of mine is a researcher for Italy and I was always happy to try giving a little help, I also tried to help with some translation issues (which still persist but never mind...) and always followed the community (had to sign with a new account after the recent "technical problems" as I found it easier).

FM is really the only videogame I play, maybe if I was a teenager I couldn't live without steam and all its wonders but that's not the case. In the best case, for me steam would only be a useless piece of software that needs to run in the background to play ONE videogame, and that's the same for most of my friends that still play FM. We're old and grumpy, I know.

Call me a paranoid, but I don't trust steam. And call me a paranoid, but I don't really like what I've read in their subscriber agreement. I'm not installing nor subscribing. Unfortunately this means I'm not buying FM12.[/QUOTE]

Well put and all very valid points, but you don't count anymore mate didn't you know!

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Miles thanx for replaying and clarifying some things
Now yesterday I said I will buy the game for sure but after my experiment this morning I'm putting my decision on hold the reason is:
I have tried installing a game via STEAM (Dirt 3 got a free voucher when a I bought a new GPU) and I am having problems and can't play the game so until I manage to get the game running well no FM 12 for me this year because it costs a lot for me

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[quote name='PW']You are penalising the legal users of the game for the pirates, thanks.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.

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[quote name='PW']Well put and all very valid points, but you don't count anymore mate didn't you know![/QUOTE]

It looks like the older costumers are not wanted any more

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[quote name='SRKI']I have tried installing a game via STEAM (Dirt 3 got a free voucher when a I bought a new GPU) and I am having problems and can't play the game so until I manage to get the game running well no FM 12 for me this year because it costs a lot for me[/QUOTE]
If you want help I think plenty of people here would be happy to hear about your issue and suggest fixes.

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[quote name='dafuge']If the move to Steam is in order to reduce pre-release or early piracy of FM12, will there be any plans to remove the need for Steam after a while?[/QUOTE]

My thoughts too. Miles has focussed on the problem of pirated games being available before the official release. So would SI/SEGA be in favour of waiting [B]one month[/B] and then making the game suitable to play out of the box without Steam activation?

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.[/QUOTE]

I don't really see why Steam can't make a much smaller application that is there just for the purpose of activating a game once, and then making that game available to play on the computer.

There are always going to be problems when someone has to have an application running whenever they want to do something else, particularly one that can be changed by a number of other applications.

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']As for your first point, you can get in touch with SEGA's customer support if there are issues with the client that the game is being installed via, and they will do their best to help you, even if that means them talking to Steam if they don't know the answer themselves.

They wouldn't be able to help with account specific enquiries though, under the data protection act.



Because, simply, there isn't a system out there that was available for us to use that would offer the protection needed, [B]and not be obtrusive to the customer.[/B]

The system used with FM2009 isn't available for us to use anymore, not because the company went bust as had been suggestions on this thread, but because of a patent issue which made them change their business focus.[/QUOTE]

How is the system you have chosen not obtrusive to the customer?

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.[/QUOTE]

Then devise a system that doesn't force people to use Steam all the time or a water down version of Steam or the variety of other ways you can use to register a product without all the hassle you are making.

Another suggestion, what were the other methods put to you Miles? Ever thought it would have been nice to ask the Community what they thought of the offers Sega put on the table? Maybe a poll, maybe just some suggestions or a nice polite warning EARLIER that this was going to happen and how could we come to a suitable solution.

I think you underestimate how much this game comes from the Community and all the free time people put into it and you will definately encourage people the other way to avoid using Steam due to how many people dislike the system.

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Absolutely spot on, in a previous post I asked the question will there be a clear indication in large text on the front of the retail box stating that you will need a 3rd party platform Steam to play the game or will it be in text on the back that is so small no one can read it, Miles perhaps you could answer that one.

I'm disgusted in this change, it didn't work with FM2009 so why do you think it will work with FM2012.

Sadly I am another who will not be buying the game.

[quote name='PW']The SEGA site and many of the pre-sales sites have no information whatsoever about having to activate the game via the internet and ONLY via Steam.
Great customer service there so the people already pre-purchased the game thinking it is the same as usual will have a big surprise won't they![/QUOTE]

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Well I guess that's pretty much that.

I've re-tried Steam over this weekend and some of my previous concerns are still there with that piece of third party software. The analogy with DirectX etc, in my opinion, is a really poor one and does not correlate with this situation at all. DirectX is a third party graphics programming interface that games companies use to make their games. To compare that with needing a piece of third party DRM software to be able to play the game is completely off the scale for me. Nowhere near.

I totally understand why SI are going down this route but I have to say the nature of some of the responses over the course of this weekend, both from SI and Sega have come across as very off hand, almost aloof and totally against the original ethos of the original Sports Interactive company - in my humble opinion. To put up a 4% figure of people who might not be able to use it through lack of internet, plus a small number of people who are choosing not to play this time around and wrap it all up in a "well, we're sorry about that but.." package doesn't quite sit right. I thought the idea of business was to not close any doors for any of your customers? Silly me!

Still the decision has been made and so has mine. I will not be buying the game and will not buy any further until things change. Will SI miss me? No. I'm just a small number in the grand scheme of things.

All the best SI, I wish you all the best of luck.

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Just a thought why not ditch steam and activation as well as protection and charge £10 for a download version of the game, i'm sure people would gladly pay £10 for an original version of the game.

No costs for protection, no costs regards steam and no manufacturing cost for retail edition!

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[quote name='data6930']Absolutely spot on, in a previous post I asked the question will there be a clear indication in large text on the front of the retail stating that you will need a 3rd party platform Steam to play the game or will it be in text on the back that is so small no one can read it, Miles perhaps you could answer that one.

I'm disgusted in this change, it didn't work with FM2009 so why do you think it will work with FM2012.

Sadly I am another who will not be buying the game.[/QUOTE]

It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.

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[quote name='RorysRocketThrow']Well I guess that's pretty much that.

I've re-tried Steam over this weekend and some of my previous concerns are still there with that piece of third party software. The analogy with DirectX etc, in my opinion, is a really poor one and does not correlate with this situation at all. DirectX is a third party graphics programming interface that games companies use to make their games. To compare that with needing a piece of third party DRM software to be able to play the game is completely off the scale for me. Nowhere near.

I totally understand why SI are going down this route but I have to say the nature of some of the responses over the course of this weekend, both from SI and Sega have come across as very off hand, almost aloof and totally against the original ethos of the original Sports Interactive company - in my humble opinion. To put up a 4% figure of people who might not be able to use it through lack of internet, plus a small number of people who are choosing not to play this time around and wrap it all up in a "well, we're sorry about that but.." package doesn't quite sit right. I thought the idea of business was to not close any doors for any of your customers? Silly me!

Still the decision has been made and so has mine. I will not be buying the game and will not buy any further until things change. Will SI miss me? No. I'm just a small number in the grand scheme of things.

All the best SI, I wish you all the best of luck.[/QUOTE]

Direct X, sandwiches, and contents insurance have all been used to explain the unexplainable.................next we will have the shrimps quote just like Cantona!

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Agree it isn't putting the customer first is it, without that custom the game would not be where it is today would it.

[quote name='PW']It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='pigfacemonkeyman']How is the system you have chosen not obtrusive to the customer?[/QUOTE]

That's what he said. So (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles) the issue then became which system available worked best and was the [B]least[/B] obtrusive to the customer.

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[quote name='data6930']Just a thought why not ditch steam and activation as well as protection and charge £10 for a download version of the game, i'm sure people would gladly pay £10 for an original version of the game.

No costs for protection, no costs regards steam and no manufacturing cost for retail edition![/QUOTE]

Which is a sure fire way of getting MORE piracy. Well done.

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[quote name='PW']Direct X, sandwiches, and contents insurance have all been used to explain the unexplainable.................next we will have the shrimps quote just like Cantona![/QUOTE]

Sardines...

Unexplainable? Laughing. My. F******. Ass. Off.

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[quote name='Miles Jacobson']Unfortunately, that's true. It's also unfortunately true throughout society, and has been for many years, when it comes to protecting anything, whether that be software, or anyone's property or possessions. To get insurance against theft in my home (which I need, due to a tiny minority of people wanting to steal other people's possessions), I have to get locks put onto my doors. If I lose my keys, that stops me getting into my house.

I wish we didn't have to have any kind of software protection, period. It costs, in both time and money, and is inconvenient for both users, and the publisher. But whilst there are still people out there who believe they have a right to pirate our work, paid for by SEGA's investment, then there will be a need for there to be protection. Particularly when we provide such a lengthy demo which negates the vast majority of reasons oft given for piracy.[/QUOTE]

Enough with the analogies, you can get your locks from more than one place, and if you lose your keys there are plenty of locksmiths to choose from.

This decision leaves us with a 'Hobson's choice'. :mad:

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[quote name='afced7']Sardines...

Unexplainable? Laughing my f****** ass off[/QUOTE]

Ah right, well he probably said shrimps somewhere down the line too!

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[quote name='7Bestie7']Which is a sure fire way of getting MORE piracy. Well done.[/QUOTE]

Maybe not because it's not a lot of money and I think it's a good idea

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Someone asked about whether we can resell FM2012 hard copy after they have finished with the game. Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold? I know you can gift games of steam to people, not sure if this is true on used games or just newly purchased unistalled games.

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[quote name='SRKI']Maybe not because it's not a lot of money and I think it's a good idea[/QUOTE]

Neither is £0 :rolleyes:

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[quote name='Huney Munster'] Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold?[/QUOTE]
It cannot. You can't gift games on Steam that you've played yourself either; needs to be purchased as a gift specifically.

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[quote name='Huney Munster']Someone asked about whether we can resell FM2012 hard copy after they have finished with the game. Can the game be deactived on Steam so the hard copy can then be sold? I know you can gift games of steam to people, not sure if this is true on used games or just newly purchased unistalled games.[/QUOTE]

No you can't sell the game on.

You can only gift newly purchase uninstalled games. The receiving person can also choose to pass the gift on as long as they don't open/install it.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']can i ask why? This is not me attmepting to convert you before Akter gets himself in a twist, i am just interersted what it is in the agreement you would not sign.[/QUOTE]

the whole section 9 is basically "no guarantees, about nothing, forever".

section 12 allows valve to change any term of the agrrement at any time, but you get "informed"

section 13B I don't like how it's put, very ambiguous

then there's the privacy policy which is also quite ambiguous, like: "While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site"

sure, it's free. First one is always free

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[quote name='nessi']the whole section 9 is basically "no guarantees, about nothing, forever".

section 12 allows valve to change any term of the agrrement at any time, but you get "informed"

section 13B I don't like how it's put.

then there's the privacy policy which is quite ambiguous, like: "While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site"[/QUOTE]

I don't like the T&C's..........alot of companies have similar(ish) type of agreements but thats fine if YOU are choosing their product, we wouldn't be SEGA/SI would be. That's the issue and if there are problems with Steam then we have to go to Steam OR...............ummmm maybe Sega Customer Service(!!!) will help.

I have alot of very good tech friends and their findings on Steam and their usgae of yor info is interesting to say the least and due to their T&C's not much you can do when you tick 'Agree'.

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[quote name='afced7']Neither is £0 :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I know but I think SI and SEGA would have more purchases whit this method than any

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[quote name='PW']It is a joke, no site that I could find had ANY infrmation about having to have an internet connection to activate it or that Steam HAD to be used as the only way for activation. That includes the Sega site and the SI site.....................it may not have been released yet but people are already pre-ordering the game and contary to Miles indication of the game pre-order sales going up I would say it isn't due to this announcement it is due to the release date (provisional) being announced and being quite near and many people not knowing about this activation balls up again.
It is disgusting customer service.[/QUOTE]

And why wasn't this decision announced along with the release date? PR maybe? To dupe people into ordering the game whilst withholding essential information that might put them off? And lets be thinking beyond the internet for a change.

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[quote name='sounder2']oh I've come back on and my comment from last night has been removed. I was saying that I know someone who was working in corporate sales for Steam, how their sales 'line' was "we've researched (they havent) that you should be making more money from piracy losses, '2 out of three' games are lost this way (ahem! not true!). Why not license it exclusively with us and we can both make more money?' He also was saying how all the major games companies have chased them out of town and he was gobsmacked that Sega/SI went for it. When the insider says a fast one has been pulled, you know its bad. I'm out.[/QUOTE]

It was removed!!!!.......................wonder why!
Very interesting because as I have said before I know alot of tech people who have very very interesting thoughts on Steam and their conduct and the info they use on you but haven't divulged the details!
Seems you ave been more brave so well done!

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[quote name='SRKI']I know but I think SI and SEGA would have more purchases whit this method than any[/QUOTE]Just like Paradox...

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hi quick question.If people dont want to use/install steam and are thinking of downloading illegally the question is if you are basically buying a license to use the game couldnt you just have an option on the site (si or sega for example) to buy a license for the game? you may have an illegal copy but if you bought a license for it wouldnt that be the same as buying the game but not using steam? that way SI still make the money on the game and would stop people complaining about steam. i dont know if that would even be possible. i personally like steam and use it oftenbut i can see the frustration of the people who dont want to use it.

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[quote name='7Bestie7']That's what he said. So (correct me if I'm wrong, Miles) the issue then became which system available worked best and was the [B]least[/B] obtrusive to the customer.[/QUOTE]

Since when did you become Miles' editor?

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