David Kempshall

A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

4,165 posts in this topic

not seem to have learned nothing from the horrible Fm 2009

EA Sports creates these silly to try to prevent piracy of FIFA?

And Konami?

The answer is No!

What they do is play games so much that even with piracy exist just pleasing people who choose to buy the original version of the game

I think that instead of wasting time trying to find fancy anti-piracy techniques that will be broken by any cracker Russian 12 years old in two hours, they should bother to try and make a good game, so the date for the launch of the game he as little bugs as possible, something that did not happen in FM 2011 with the damn bug gtransferencias

Stop Inventing stuff that will hurt good customers, otherwise most will be the obrigda becomes bad customers

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Exactly if this system is ONLY about piracy then why isn't another option being offered????

There is much more to this than just piracy it is a cash cow organisation like Sega trampelling on the community that has MADE FM and continues to devote FREE time to making the game better.

It may not be the biggest issue in the world but if people don't stand up for these small things then they will feel that bigger things can just be done as no-one will stand up for themselves.

If for example an option was offered to authenticate via a web page they would have to allow the following;

- a number of 'license seats' so that you could install on 2-3 computers.

- a way of recovering 'license seats' in the event that anything happens to your machine(s).

By doing this they are potentially allowing people to share copies and be able to sell the game on.

By offering only steam they do not need to do either of these things and so stop casual sharing of discs and the re-sale market, potentially selling significantly more copies.

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Personally I'm getting sick of the hassle you have to put up with to play PC games (I don't mean FM specifically).

I've just heard that Diablo III will require you to be connected to the server at all times, even when playing in singleplayer. I was planning to buy that game but there's just no way I'm going to put up with that.

These days I buy the PS3 version of a game when available, it's just so much easier to install and get playing. In fact, the only PC games I've bought recently are Indie games and older classics.

RE Steam: I've never yet found a reason to use it, so if it provides no benefit to me then I somewhat resent having it shoved down my throat. Arguments about "technology moves on" are very disingenous - this is purely a commercial decision to use Steam.

My last experience with it was with Fallout New Vegas which also required you to register via Steam. I found there were still a lot of irritations and niggles in the system, nothing major perhaps but I uninstalled it as soon as I finished FNV.

Still, as someone said when defending this decision, no-one is forcing me to buy FM12. And there are plenty of other good games that I can buy instead.

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So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

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If for example an option was offered to authenticate via a web page they would have to allow the following;

- a number of 'license seats' so that you could install on 2-3 computers.

- a way of recovering 'license seats' in the event that anything happens to your machine(s).

By doing this they are potentially allowing people to share copies and be able to sell the game on.

By offering only steam they do not need to do either of these things and so stop casual sharing of discs and the re-sale market, potentially selling significantly more copies.

Or potentially losing a high volume of customers tired of being treated like they are morons when they add siginficant value to the game via the community and then get treated like criminals.

Why can't they have an activation scenario like Microsoft do or similar type companies like anti-virus???

Because Piracy is a side issue and money is the main motivation....................and judging by the SI response they don't care or can't do anything about it.

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"Technology moves on" is a rubbish argument to defend this decision to be honest.

Yes, of course it does. But I personally wouldn't consider it an advancement unless it makes things easier for the user, not more complicated.

By any reasonable definition, having Steam required to play something that is a on a physical media is a clear step backwards, rather than forwards.

Steam itself is an advancement in technology, but only when it relates to digital downloads - but even then with some drawbacks (price, software stability and so on).

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So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

You should be able to set Steam in offline mode if that happens.

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Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

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And you think it wouldn't notice that there are a great number of activation codes being duplicated?

Steam is not a new idea. I'm pretty sure this is one of the first things they found a way to monitor and take action against.

I don't know. Have never used Steam and don't particularly want to be forced into installing it. We'll see what happens, but as things stand it seems that I won't have to make the choice anyway.

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What an absolute fuss over nothing

Why post if you have nothing sensible to add to the discussion?

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What an absolute fuss over nothing

+1 So much of this has just been the same endless arguments from both sides. Sympathise with those who may have genuine issues when trying to play/activate the game,and on our forum we'll try and help themas much as we can, but after that I fall squarely in the "I dont care" section of the original vote. You will either buy it or you wont. The coming months will see how well/poorly it worked, and determine what influence it will have on their next choice of action.

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Why post if you have nothing sensible to add to the discussion?

Oh so am I not allowed to give my opinion on these forums any more then?

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After realising that I will not be able to sell the game after buying if I don't enjoy it, the demo is going to have to absolutely blow me away in order for me to buy it this year.

I sold 08 and 09 because I thought they were both absolutely awful, and didn't buy 11 at all for the same reason. I don't want to spend my money, find out there's some horrific bug that ruins long-term saves (again) and not actually be able to get my money back for it.

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Or potentially losing a high volume of customers tired of being treated like they are morons when they add siginficant value to the game via the community and then get treated like criminals.

Why can't they have an activation scenario like Microsoft do or similar type companies like anti-virus???

Because Piracy is a side issue and money is the main motivation....................and judging by the SI response they don't care or can't do anything about it.

They have obviously taken the view that they will gain many mmore sales than they will lose.

Obviously money is their motivation. In buisness it always is.

As things stand they will never prevent certain forms of piracy but in turn the majority of people who turn to those forms wont be turned in to paying customers either.

What they are trying to do is target other forms of piracy (disc sharing) and re-sale which by doing this they can prevent.

Dont get me wrong I am unhappy about this too but I can see why they are doing it.

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Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

He will HAVE to activate it via Steam so he will need to get internet access from somewhere, this could be via a library, mates house, etc but who cares when they sell the game.

Your problem not theirs.

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Basically everyone is moving towards online activations through Steam or their own method. Once the next generation of consoles hit, every game will require some sort of registration or need to be online to tie that game with a single account, to try and reduce piracy and (more importantly for most publishers) stop second hand sales. If you don't like it stop buying games published by the big publishers, you'll have to live with Indie gaming or give up completely. This is unfortunately the future and you either have to live with it or lump it.

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Oh so am I not allowed to give my opinion on these forums any more then?

If you read the posts so far this issue is not 'an absolute fuss over nothing'. Genuine concerns exist on having the decision to install third party software forced on them in order to play FM12. As a genuine potential purchaser of the product everyone has a right to air those concerns and then make a decision whether to purchase or not. It is definitely not a fuss over nothing. Personally i hope that SI/SEGA get their fingers burnt on this one. There deserve no more.

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They have obviously taken the view that they will gain many mmore sales than they will lose.

Obviously money is their motivation. In buisness it always is.

As things stand they will never prevent certain forms of piracy but in turn the majority of people who turn to those forms wont be turned in to paying customers either.

What they are trying to do is target piracy and re-sale which by doing this they can prevent.

Dont get me wrong I am unhappy about this too but I can see why they are doing it.

I understand the need to activate the game, I understand piracy is an issue BUT this is not the way forward downloading a 3rd party software, opening a 3rd party account, and having to use this 3rd party software to run the game (offline or online).

Many many other companies battle piracy with far betetr methods and activation without affecting people in such a major way.

Ill thought out, ill devised, and yet again another activation mess created by Sega/SI.

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If you read the posts so far this issue is not 'an absolute fuss over nothing'. Genuine concerns exist on having the decision to install third party software forced on them in order to play FM12. As a genuine potential purchaser of the product everyone has a right to air those concerns and then make a decision whether to purchase or not. It is definitely not a fuss over nothing. Personally i hope that SI/SEGA get their fingers burnt on this one. There deserve no more.

I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

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I understand the need to activate the game, I understand piracy is an issue BUT this is not the way forward downloading a 3rd party software, opening a 3rd party account, and having to use this 3rd party software to run the game (offline or online).

Many many other companies battle piracy with far betetr methods and activation without affecting people in such a major way.

Ill thought out, ill devised, and yet again another activation mess created by Sega/SI.

And I agree that we shouldn't have to download steam to play.

I myself will have no other use for steam other than playing FM and I'm not happy about this but they have stated that this was the only method of activation they have deemed suitable.

My reasons above are why I belive they have done this. At no point did I say I agree.

From their point of view they will have estimated that this will gain more sales than it loses. After all most people will just buy it and install it without any fuss and they will probably record record sales. Only time will tell.

In combatting piracy they will never please everyone.

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He will HAVE to activate it via Steam so he will need to get internet access from somewhere, this could be via a library, mates house, etc but who cares when they sell the game.

Your problem not theirs.

Well yea, Mate said it's pointless him buying it then which is a shame considering he loves the game, SI will no doubt come to a compromise over the next month, It would be a suicidal move to say "Unless you have net you can't play it"

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Surely there could be some compromise here ? My mate has no internet nor no laptop just a old pc that barely plays fm but he loves the game, How will he be able to activate his game or is it a case of he's stuffed ?

Definitely Steam will make it incredibly hard for people that have stationary computers and no internet connection to be able to play the game - which is somewhat bogus for them :thdn:

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I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

Only the sales figures will say in the end whether they have done a magnificent job. Still a sad day for the genuine consumer when your freedom of choice is affected.

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I would love to know what Miles and co think about what a lot of us are saying?

Do you think they would even bother reading any of this

I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend. ;)

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.

B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.

Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

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I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend. ;)

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.

B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.

Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

Those figure would be nice to know, however the fact they haven't been released suggests the answer!

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I was planning on responding to this thread yesterday afternoon, but whilst on the way to the studio I was involved in a car crash (no one hurt, which is good) and was a bit shaken up, so not the time for me to be replying in the calm manner that I wanted to to this thread.

This was always going to be an emotive subject. Any form of copy protection is. There's no conspiracy theory about SEGA posting about it though - they normally do so, as it's a publishing thing, not a development thing. It is their job to come up with recommendations in this area, but we were consulted about the various options available. This is by far and away the best one that was presented to us, from a user perspective, a business perspective and a protection perspective.

No one from SEGA or SI would say that using the system that we are means that the game will not be cracked at some point. It's bound to be. But with the exception of FM2009, every version of FM has been available to pirate before the retail release. During that few days, every year, retail see pre-orders being cancelled. Every year retail see pre-orders not being collected, even those with "free gifts" and where deposits have been paid. If it can be made that those people who legitimately buy our games this year get to play it before those that are pirating, that will be a good thing. If it can be that way for a few months, weeks, or even days, after that release, we do believe it will make a big difference.

We are also not saying that we believe that if the game isn't cracked, all of those previous pirates will buy it. I do not believe that 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale. The vast majority of people who pirate it won't pay the money for it, certainly not at launch. But I do believe that a proportion of them will do. And those extra sales, for however long the game can be protected, will lead to an increase in dev budgets, and therefore better, or more, games for all.

Dave gave some stats out earlier which were slightly inaccurate. It's not the case that there are 3 people playing pirated copies of FM for every 1 legitimate customer - there are more than 4 people playing pirated copies of FM for every legitimate customer. And to the question on whether that takes into account people who have bought who play with CD cracks, it doesn't matter, as even if every single person who bought FM played with a CD crack, there would still be 3 people playing pirated versions for each 1 legitimate customer who has decided to install a 3rd party, illegal in the majority of countries, CD crack.

There are people claiming on here that the reason for doing this is just to kill the second hand market. That's simply not true - it didn't even come into the conversation when discussing protection for this year. According to the licensing agreement for the game, whether you've read it or not, it's against the license to re-sell the game. As it is for the vast majority of PC games. The vast majority of retailers who deal in second hand games do not trade in PC games, whatever the protection is. And the replayability factor of FM is huge, so second hand isn't something that has affected us in a major way at all.

One big thing that was taken into account when looking at the various systems available was how many people, given the choice with FM11 of whether to install the game via Steam or without Steam, chose to install via Steam. The results surprised me, with the majority of people deciding to install through Steam.

There've been questions about what I think of the reaction, given that it's 17 pages so far. Well, obviously I'm disappointed when anyone says they aren't going to buy our next release, and I doubt there's anything that I'll be saying here that will appease those people. But the reality is that those being negative in the 17 pages are mainly the same people - about 50 in total. The negative reaction from a few people is very similar to that when Total War announced that they were going down this route. And when Civ went down this route. I'm sure both Creative Assembly and Firaxis were just as disappointed to be losing some long term customers as I am - but that doesn't change the decision that has been made, nor change my belief that from the options we had, it's the best one for all.

We will, continuously, look for other ways to provide our games to people as long as it doesn't compromise the security that is needed. I've been vocal about how I really like the OnLive system, for example, and this is something we'll continue to investigate. That does require you to register, though, and does require an internet connection permanently to play, so certainly won't suit all if we do go down that route.

There've been many posts about the problem being the installation of third party software on your machine, but that's just a part of life when it comes to PC games. Whether that be Direct X, graphics drivers, Windows/MacOS, font rendering technology, web browsing tech or other middleware, anytime you install a game, or application on your computer, you require third party software.

People have also asked "what about those who don't have an internet connection". When we had activation for FM2009 which was done both online and via telephone, less than 4% of people, globally, chose to use the telephone route. Some of these people had a net connection, but didn't want to authenticate that way (as per the huge threads at that time). So, again whilst it's disappointing that some people genuinely don't have a net connection and might miss out, this was taken into account with the overall decision, and there wasn't an option presented to me by SEGA this year that didn't involve purely online activation.

There has also been talk about other PC titles on here that will get your money instead. I've seen the following being mentioned so far (apologies if I've missed any) - Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fifa Manager, FIFA, Batman & Rage. Battlefield, FIFA Manager & FIFA on PC will all require EA's online system, called Origin, and for you to register with them. Rage is Steamworks, as we are. Call of Duty uses Activision's new online system. I do not know about Batman's authentication method, or whether it has one.

You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

I, like many of the people who aren't happy with the decision, am also a very principled person. There are certain chains that I don't eat at. There's even a local sandwich shop that I won't go to anymore as they wouldn't change the bun on a sandwich I wanted (the original had sesame seeds on them, and I have a nut allergy) when they'd done so dozens of times in the past. I am well aware that some people will not buy the game purely on principle because we have gone Steam only this year and, as I said above, I'm very disappointed by that. Despite my own principles though, I fully understand and support the decision that has been made, given the options presented.

I also think that Steam itself is fantastic. I have more than 80 games on my account. They are massively helpful at every turn to help us get the game integrated with their features, like achievements, and allowing people with PC's & Mac's to be able to play games on both systems. SEGA's customer support team will be on hand if anyone does have an issue, as always, on top of Steam's support.

So, that's my opinion on the 17 pages that I've read so far. As I said, it's not going to appease all those who are anti, as some of those who are anti will only be happy if the decision is reversed, and it isn't going to be. Hopefully, though, some of the points I've made will appease some of you.

There are 2 questions that I haven't been able to answer that I do think need answering, which are how do people in countries where the game isn't sold play, and what about people in the forces who don't have net connections. Those are things for SEGA to look into, and I would hope that they would get back to you on those.

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I would imagine at this point they are too stunned by the reaction to comment, that or because it's the weekend. ;)

Sega/SI have flatly refused to provide any figures to back up their claims which I find a little odd, however, There is a set of figures they must know, A)How many people buy hard copies of FM, and B)How many of those hard copies are activated through Steam.

B - A = C)The number of people who either chose not to activate through Steam or weren't able to activate through Steam.

This is the number of people that could possibly be alienated by Sega/SI's decision. Will Sega/SI please provide these figures? They can't be considered sensitive surely.

Are Sega/SI really willing to gamble on potentially losing that many paying customers? They obviously are or they wouldn't have taken this route. Unless this figure is very low they have made a big mistake.

This will not take into account people like me. I use steam when possible because from a technical point of view it works for me and its convenient . What im opposed to is buying a game and then having NO CHOICE but to go through some third party to get access to my games. With FM11 i know that even if steam fails i can still install from the cd and run the game i bought. FM12 doesnt give me that option and as such is not worth a full price. Im fully prepared to pay up to 5 eur for a steam only game. It is after all only a rental with an unknown return date.

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As for people asking for actual figures on these things, the reason those aren't given out are very simple - SEGA Sammy Holdings, the parent company of both SI and SEGA Europe, are a stock market listed company. There are all kinds of regulatory issues that mean that those figures would only be given out in official financial statements, and permission would not be given for putting such figures into a forum post. There are also legally binding confidentiality agreements in place in many areas of the business.

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+1 So much of this has just been the same endless arguments from both sides. Sympathise with those who may have genuine issues when trying to play/activate the game,and on our forum we'll try and help themas much as we can, but after that I fall squarely in the "I dont care" section of the original vote. You will either buy it or you wont. The coming months will see how well/poorly it worked, and determine what influence it will have on their next choice of action.

The fact that a lot of this (not all), is the same arguments and, from my observation, mostly against this activation measure, suggests there is a consensus. This strengthens the argument and SI/SEGA should take note.

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Miles I personally have no problem with using steam has it's how I bought fm11 and it's been fine. I just wanted to know if you will be providing a way for those to buy and play the game for those who don't have net and will there be a way my mate can activate his game on my pc?

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@Miles

I liked your sandwich story, so to build on that: the way it has been set up this time around in the sandwich shop is that a costumer comes in to buy a chicken-sandwich. Once he/she has recieved the sandwich (which is all buttered up) he/she is then told he/she needs to go to another shop to get the chicken! For people that have stationary computers and no internet connection will be like having to take your whole kitchen with you to the sandwich shop...

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Miles....

While you're about could you please just cast your eye over the issue I raised in this thread please

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274992-Steam-quot-This-item-is-unavailable-in-your-region-quot-Can-we-still-play-Fm2012

enjoyed reading your response. Agree with pretty much all of it, like I've stated. No problems with STEAM whatsoever, just very concerned that I (and presumably many others) may be locked out

thanks in advance

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Miles nice one for answering and putting your point across. Well done sir, even if i dont agree with all...

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So if someone has ISP trouble and their broadband for whatever reason goes 'down' does that mean Steam can not work and therefore games can't be played?

There have been cases with my previous well known ISP going down for hours.

Of course it's not the end of the world if such a thing happens, but I think out of principle it is wrong that I or anyone can't play a legally purchased game if I have trouble with my ISP and the internet goes 'down'.

You should be able to set Steam in offline mode if that happens.

As Scab has said you can use offline mode but you'll lose all your gameplay since your last save like you would with a power cut.

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As Scab has said you can use offline mode but you'll lose all your gameplay since your last save like you would with a power cut.

Well, not really; the game doesn't force exit when Steam loses Internet connectivity. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

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Well, not really; the game doesn't force exit when Steam loses Internet connectivity. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

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I read the posts and then made my own mind up that this is a fuss over nothing, then expressed my view here. You're welcome to disagree but you shouldn't question the validity of my opinion just because you hold a different one. This is an absolute storm in a teacup, and if this is the worst thing to ever happen to the series as some people seem to believe then frankly SI and SEGA are doing a magnificent job.

This forum being the teacup you mean? What about the customers outside in the real world many of whom won't even know this site exists.? What about customers around the world without any internet access or capable access? How many of all the people who don't know of this decision are likely to be disappointed come purchase time, to see the activation requirements or worse still not see them till it's too late?

There's a couple of potentially many storms outside the teacup, and quite frankly I am disgusted with your "I'm Alright Jack" attitude.

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It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.

It has never happened to me, but that is a big problem if it is the case.

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The SEGA site and many of the pre-sales sites have no information whatsoever about having to activate the game via the internet and ONLY via Steam.

Great customer service there so the people already pre-purchased the game thinking it is the same as usual will have a big surprise won't they!

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Miles I personally have no problem with using steam has it's how I bought fm11 and it's been fine. I just wanted to know if you will be providing a way for those to buy and play the game for those who don't have net and will there be a way my mate can activate his game on my pc?

The game requires an internet connection to authenticate. So if someone has no internet connection, nor the possibility of getting one (such as a hotspot), then no.

Miles....

While you're about could you please just cast your eye over the issue I raised in this thread please

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/274992-Steam-quot-This-item-is-unavailable-in-your-region-quot-Can-we-still-play-Fm2012

enjoyed reading your response. Agree with pretty much all of it, like I've stated. No problems with STEAM whatsoever, just very concerned that I (and presumably many others) may be locked out

thanks in advance

I spoke about that at the bottom of my post - it's something that is an unanswered question that I don't know the answer to, that hopefully SEGA will find out and get back to people on. In South Korea particularly, the game will be available via Steam, although the Korean releases are often later than those in the West. Whether you'll be able to buy the UK version, or not, is something that SEGA need to answer.

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You've asked how we're letting people know about this. Well, apart from the forum thread, there was a mailshot on Friday to hundreds of thousands of our registered customers to let them know about it, as well as telling them about the blogs and the release date. Since then, pre-orders have gone up massively with our pre-order position at Amazon in the UK (for example) going up from the mid 20's into the top 10, peaking at 5 and currently at 7, which is way higher than we normally are at this time of year. There will also be, front of pack in between the SI logo and the age rating, in big letters, the words "requires internet connection to activate", which was insisted upon by me for us to be able to go ahead with this. I will be chasing SEGA first thing on Monday to ensure that all retailers who have packshots online switch to the final packshot, rather than the one they are currently using.

Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

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@Miles

I liked your sandwich story, so to build on that: the way it has been set up this time around in the sandwich shop is that a costumer comes in to buy a chicken-sandwich. Once he/she has recieved the sandwich (which is all buttered up) he/she is then told he/she needs to go to another shop to get the chicken! For people that have stationary computers and no internet connection will be like having to take your whole kitchen with you to the sandwich shop...

Exactly, we will provide you a part of the pie but to get the filling please go elsewhere and sorry if you can't get to the other shop for the filling but hey ho who care we have made a sale!

Jesus I really though this game was different, made by brothers in their bedroom for the right reasons with a community that is integral to the game and valued and listened to..................whoops then along came Sega and the soul sold to the devil................we will do what we wany base don our opinion and our greed and the people that fall through the cracks????...well they are not that important to us so who cares!

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Miles: Thanks for taking the time to reply. There's a few points in there that I concur with and a few that will only spark further debate, possibly over the best place to buy a seed-free sandwich.

However you have posted two questions that need answering. I would be grateful if you could answer these two as well, as they are important in relation to the customer experience using Steam:

1) "Can we download a patch from any other source rather than Steam's auto update feature"

2) "Can SI/SEGA assure us that when a user activates the game, Steam will not automatically download a patch"?

Because IIRC, people firing up the most recent Total War found themselves downloading a 1GB file when activating. Which might not be an issue for those blessed with superfast broadband connections, but even with FM 'relatively small' updates: for people on relatively slow connections it's a pain, for people with dowwnload limits it's an expensive mistake, and for people on dial-up it'll be an absolute nightmare. And it will render their purchase unplayable until they are able to complete the patch download.

3) Can you assure your customers that all patches will be 100% save game compatible in all territories? Because all hell will break loose if a patch that people have no choice whether to install or not crashes or unbalances their long-term saves.

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Personally I don't think thats enough.

If it was my product I would want customers to know they don't just need an internet connection but they need a specific piece of software which is provided on the disc?

AND WELL BEFORE it went on pre-release my god its is another monumental mess.

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....There are 2 questions that I haven't been able to answer that I do think need answering, which are how do people in countries where the game isn't sold play, and what about people in the forces who don't have net connections. Those are things for SEGA to look into, and I would hope that they would get back to you on those.

I have no opinion either way on Steam, but that's the key for me. I've played CM/FM since '96, and luckily I am going to be around this year to online activate, but I might not be next year, or thereafter. And I know quite a few who are away right now and won't have the online access needed, nor will they until a 2 week R&R maybe not until Jan/Feb. That sucks.

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It does if you are in "Online" mode as far as I know.
The wireless in my old flat was a bit dodgy, and I regularly lost connection - the game carries on just fine. Only effect is that you can't get achievements until you're online again.

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Miles; even though Valve might be easy to work with for you guys, doesn't mean they're easy to work from a customer perspective. You do remember us, the customers right? Steam's support is notoriously horrible, and there is absolutely nothing SEGA can help me with if there is any problems with my Steam client (which there is, a lot).

And if the argument is that Steam would prevent pirates from releasing the game earlier than release date - release it on Steam first, and then release it conventionally after a week or so = problem solved.

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I don't like the fact that we have to keep Steam installed after activating..

I don't mind having to activate the game, saves SI and Sega money and stops pirates. :thup:

But why can't it be like FM09? Where we could register the game online over the internet, without having to install steam..

Why are we now being for forced to install Steam and play in offline mode?

Thanks to the pirates, we now have to install a client just to be able to play a game we have paid for.

Yeah some people love Steam and say it's great for keeping all their games in one place, well I don't really play any other game on my PC/Laptop (I used to play Civ, but not anymore) Apart from that, I've always just played CM/FM on my PC. Simply by buying the game, inserting the disk installing, and playing.

Apart from with FM09, where I installed, then activated, then played. And I don't travel around the world for work etc, I only play FM at home where the disk is always to hand, so Steam is of no advantage to me.

Plus I don't always patch my game straight away, I like to see what over people say about it. (sometimes the 2nd patch makes it worse) but with Steam, I've read that it automatically updates the game and you have no choice in the matter, and you can't roll back to the previous patch with Steam.

I don't believe for one minute it's just to stop the pirates, there are other ways to activate(like FM09) without having to install Steam. It's all to save Sega money in the long run, with boxes/ disks/ posting copies out to shops etc.

They have been trying to get people to use Steam over the last 3 years with special incentives if you install with Steam. Yeah it may save them money in the long run, but I think they will lose money in the short run, with genuine customers deciding not to buy the game because of this.

Yeah people do love Steam and have been using it since FM09, but some people have not, so why just remove the option not to install through Steam?

Some people still don't use 3D on the new FM games and stick with 2D, where some people would say 3D is better and is the future. If SI just decided to get rid of the 2D, I'm sure some people would be unhappy.

So they leave the 2D option in there, as it does not hurt anybody. If you like 2D then play with 2D, if you like 3D then play with 3D.

It may sound childish etc, but I don't want a 3rd party program installed to play my FM game. And the 3rd party program is only there to make money, it's not there to make your life easy for free, I bet when you load steam up there are Ads everywhere for other games they want you to buy?

Like I said, I've got no problem with activating my game over the internet, I never once moaned about this with FM09, I thought it was a great idea to stop pirates.

But I do have a problem with having to install Steam, and having to keep it installed on my PC/Laptop just to be able to play FM.

I'm going to leave FM12 and stick with FM11 for another year. Hopefully with FM13, there will be another way to activate it without having to install Steam.

If not, then I think I will leave my beloved FM, maybe it's time I outgrew it anyway, so it would be a good excuse. :D

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