A Message On Football Manager 2012 Activation

[BuryBlade]

x42bn6, very well said sir!!

As said above, your posts in this thread are fantastic- very well written and you put across very good points with plenty of well sourced material to back up your ideas.

[phnompenhandy]

x42bn6 :applause::applause:

Well thought-out, intelligent and informed response.

[The Welsh Lad]

x42bn6, amazing truly amazing

[Wiggins Top Boys]

just a shame it'll get ignored. (not that it would have even been considered in the first place) the decision has already been made...

[MAINBOY]

x42bn6 :applause:

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned/answered...

How is it legal for Sega to insist that customers who have bought a copy of the game are required to install a specific software programme to be able to run the game? And for no other option to be given?

As an example Microsoft were successfully taken to court over the fact that you had to install certain software on their operating systems. Would this not fall in to the same sphere?

In a situation where a customer buys a copy of FM12 will they be informed in advance of purchase that they are required to install a third party software in order to play the game (not everyone will be aware of this before purchase)? If not, when they open the game and install to find this out, and are unable/unwilling to install steam, would they receive a refund from sega (as a shop would not issue a refund on an opened game)?

Sega are trying to justify this by saying it's to combat piracy (which it more than likely won't) and many people don't buy that (I am undecided) - What I would like to know is if steam are paying Sega a fee for exclusivity of this game?

Microsoft got into trouble for abusing their monopoly in the OS market to force IE on people, Sega don't have a monopoly on PC Games hence it has no bearing.

Steamworks games (Well Orange Box, Fallout: New Vegas and Deus Ex) have a couple of lines on the back saying you need to accept the Steam aggreement and activate online to play, slightly worrying is that they say you need to return the game unopened if you don't agree, but no link to the actual game EULA is provided just where you can read the generic Steam License. Returnability will depend on retailer, the actual EULA and your country.

Valve offer Steamworks for free and as far as I'm aware don't offer companies money to use Steamworks, though SEGA would save money by not paying for the DRM scheme or hosting costs of game/demo/patches etc...

[jptykes]

x42bn6, very well said sir!!

Whs.

I've used Steam. I don't like it, online or offline. I found it unreliable, nothing to do with resource hogging or data mining.

My son uses it. He finds it unreliable but has a little more patience than me and will persevere more.

Some like the system, some don't; both sides have their reasons.

I don't want to only be able to play when Steam deem it ok. I don't want the other great benefits Steam allegedly bestows upon me as I have no need of buddy lists, ads for games I'll never buy or shallow achievement systems. I don't want my game auto-patching due to my internet cap and a personal preference of doing it at the end of a season.

I'll stick with the old games. As good as FM12 looks, it won't change my mind regarding Steam.

[athos]

I planned to buy FM12 like I did with previous versions, but I think I'll pirate it this year so I won't have to deal with the steam hassle.

[Rhazmuz]

I planned to buy FM12 like I did with previous versions, but I think I'll pirate it this year so I won't have to deal with the steam hassle.

Go ahead, sure way to make it so we keep getting a better a better game....

[PSJMcNeill]

Devastated! Bought Fm off steam last year worst decision ever. When i boot it up with no internet it tries to update and basically no matter what won't go into offline mode!!! SO thought next year can't wait to buy the disc to not have to go through this again when travelling and now this but a real downer on all my excitement for this game :(

[Neil Brock]

This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.

[Kriss]

Devastated! Bought Fm off steam last year worst decision ever. When i boot it up with no internet it tries to update and basically no matter what won't go into offline mode!!! SO thought next year can't wait to buy the disc to not have to go through this again when travelling and now this but a real downer on all my excitement for this game :(

That's not normal behaviour for Steam though so should be easily resolvable.

[Lazaru5]

This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.

Yeah Neil sounds great... we'd rather you spend time on improving the game not helping people sort out their problems with a 3rd party software that you have no control over yet force directly upon us. Sales figures will suffer, of that you can be certain, but no doubt SI and SEGA will blame the "financial crisis" instead of accepting that people just don't want what is on offer this year.

We want the choice, we want to choose whether to have a piece of software running that we have no other use for, and if the only way to choose against that software is to not buy the game... then I'll not buy the game

[stevetranmere]

This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.

fair enough you are going to provide as much customer care as possible. BUT I DONT WANT TO USE STEAM in the first place, what customer care are you going to provide to me? because to me it looks like im just being told to lump it or leave it?

[pigfacemonkeyman]

The box will say "an internet connection is required to install this game" or similar.

Surely it will have to say "Steam must be downloaded from the internet, and then used to activate the game before you can play it". Anything less would be a swindle in my opinion.

Also, it will be interesting to see what prominence is given to this information!

[PSJMcNeill]

It is nice the way steam automatically updates FM, however you will need to provide excellent customer service to keep everyone happy as I have had my fair number of problems with steam. Just hope the time put into Helping people with steam doesn't take away from the development of the game

[BuryBlade]

I work in customer service for a living and I am concerned that the response we seem to be getting from you guys is 'well if you don't like it, tough, coz that's what we are doing anyway...'

Doesn't seem to be great customer service, regardless of circumstances.

[Chris Ritchie]

Yeah Neil sounds great... we'd rather you spend time on improving the game not helping people sort out their problems with a 3rd party software that you have no control over

That's actually a pretty good point.

[Harper]

The only pop-up you get from Steam is the Deals Update that is shown when you close the game you are playing. And the deals they have are usually pretty darn good.

[Ceirdiff]

There was a very (imo) interesting post in the main forum and I was looking forward to sigames response to it. Unfortunately that post got deleted.

FWIW, I already have steam so this change shouldn't affect me, however I do sympathie with those who do not gave steam and do not wish to install it.

[jptykes]

That's not normal behaviour for Steam though so should be easily resolvable.

That's normal behaviour for Steam in offline mode in my experience. No matter how many times or how carefully I followed the instructions, the damned thing wouldn't work in the way it should. Seems like I'm not the only one.

[alienpalee]

So, the new perception is "If you like FM, you MUST like Steam"?

Why you risk your own great reputation with the far lower profile one?

If you really want to attach your value with any anti-piracy software, why didn't you choose the best available or at least one that could match your own reputation..

[Kriss]

fair enough you are going to provide as much customer care as possible. BUT I DONT WANT TO USE STEAM in the first place, what customer care are you going to provide to me? because to me it looks like im just being told to lump it or leave it?

It's your choice to word it that way but seems fairly obvious to me that it's Steam or nothing, I have to say I was as vehemently opposed to Steam as you are once but then it was a choice of using it or not getting a game I really wanted, so I bit the bullet and discovered that all my fears were groundless.

[Neil Brock]

I work in customer service for a living and I am concerned that the response we seem to be getting from you guys is 'well if you don't like it, tough, coz that's what we are doing anyway...'

Doesn't seem to be great customer service, regardless of circumstances.

Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

No, it's not. It's game theory and much more complicated than that. You underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.

This series is heavily-pirated, partly because it is so awesome. However, pirates spread word-of-mouth too. In poorer nations, piracy will be close to 100% but then again, once that nation starts developing, or the game becomes really tempting, some of that percentage will turn into paying customers. You could not do that if piracy didn't exist.

If you like, you will get more direct benefits, but less indirect benefits.

Plus, there is the awkward area where pirates actually buy more. Stamp out piracy and you stamp out these customers.

There are some pirates whom you will never make money off - those aren't of your concern. Your concern is those who might buy but don't for whatever reasonable reason. Those people may pay you in the future. Not those who will never buy.

If your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 1000 times, there is no difference to your direct bottom line if your product sells 100 copies and is pirated 10000 times. The piracy rate is a bit of a misnomer. If your piracy rate is high, all it means is that you have more potential future customers to tap into - that's it.

Do you think this actually matters? Anyone who obtains your product before the actual release date is pirating, whether it's Steam-only or not. The product can be leaked whether it's Steam-only or not. Whether it's Steam-only or not does not matter.

Strawman much? Nobody has said that you've reduced our choices in purchasing the software - you've reduced our choices in activating the software.

This is true for pretty much every single piece of software out there. Let's not pretend FM is special here.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate

Look at that!

I think this poll is going in the right direction then.

Sure, most people might not mind... But it's the customers you've lost that surely matter.

Like I said, this will be a pyrrhic victory in your fight for piracy, and don't be surprised if your bottom line is impacted by it. Piracy rate is just one of those mildly interesting KPIs that organisations love to optimise, but the bottom line is what truly matters.

I am a developer, and I have developed software before. I've seen it pirated before. I've released digital work under copyright and seen it misused without my permission before. You feel indignation, anger and annoyance when you see this - how dare this person take my work and use them for free, perhaps to his or her own benefit! However, I took a step back and thought about it - they used my work because they thought it was fun, useful or exciting for them. It helped them in some way. Then I think that there could be loads more people out there who appreciate my work, and that is the market I need to aim for. People will always pirate my work - but it is those who appreciate it and reuse it with permission who really mean something to me. I treat these people as "trialists" who can be converted into customers. It's where you realise that you feel indignation, anger and annoyance due to a loss of control, not a financial loss. I put my heart and soul into that piece of work, and someone misuses it - that effort feels for nothing. Yet I know that that person is only helping me become more known indirectly - I may benefit from it further down the line.

What I really need to care about is keeping my existing customer-base, and growing it.

You cannot stop piracy by making piracy more tempting. Reducing choice does exactly that - it drives people to pirate, where they can get a piece of software with less of a burden.

Piracy needs to be treated more as an overhead and an opportunity rather than a slammed-shut door.

Photoshop is an example. I'd guess most copies of Photoshop are pirated nowadays, and have been for a while. However, the kid that gets his or her hands grubby with a pirated version of Photoshop and falls in love with it is likely to become a paying licensee when he or she graduates from University with an Art degree into the media industry. All this means is that Photoshop has found a potential market for budding art students, and that if it can make its software so awesome and value-for-money that young students start using it, the company benefits in the long run.

Look at this: http://piracy.ssrc.org/adobe-logic/

Bill Gates has spoke on getting China drunk on Microsoft software (pirated, of course), so that when China's economy grows, Microsoft essentially locks-in and silos the Chinese into Microsoft products, benefiting them in the long run. Windows and Office are pirated heavily, but the last thing Microsoft wants to do is come down hard on it right now.

Spread your seeds, and wait for them to blossom.

I must stress that I believe piracy is wrong, since it is against the law in many countries - but there are ways to tackle piracy that are perhaps not that logical at first. One example is legalising drugs - for some, there might be incredulous gasps, but if you think about it, it's not the most idiotic suggestion in the world (i.e. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/apr/07/drugs-policy-legalisation-report - although I know this is controversial in itself).

42tresbn6.

[stevetranmere]

Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.

forgive me , but you just did... " People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager "

[Wiggins Top Boys]

I get the feeling another way this will impact sales is that for customers like me, who don't always fancy buying the 'yearly update' (yeah it's a cliche i know) would simply settle for playing older versions with updated databases. especially if the features aren't justifiable of another £30 anyway. FM11 is a great game and I increasingly dont see the need to rush out and download steam so i can play FM12... SI should be concentrating on the quality of the product itself, not just banking on that the same old suckers 'will buy it anyway and the people who dont like it can shove it'

[Kriss]

That's normal behaviour for Steam in offline mode in my experience. No matter how many times or how carefully I followed the instructions, the damned thing wouldn't work in the way it should. Seems like I'm not the only one.

Even so I'm pretty sure you're in a tiny minority and you have an issue that is probably resolvable.

[BuryBlade]

Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.

That's effectively the message though. I can see it from your perspective and that it must have been a difficult decision, but I think it will prove to be a fairly unpopular decision. I want to buy and play FM as I have done every year. I don't want to have to use Steam to play FM. It's like being told you can't order the drink you want at the bar unless you are willing to sit in a certain seat... at the far end of the bar, where it's cold and damp...

[stevetranmere]

Actually we're simply stating the facts. What else are we supposed to say? People who aren't willing to use Steam won't be able to play Football Manager 2012. No-one has written "If you don't like it - tough" anywhere.

And by the way, What else are you supposed to say? How about offering an alternative??

[Smurf]

Put it this way.

Decision has been made. They are letting you know.

Buy it or don't buy it. There's nothing they can do now. Deal is made.

Use Steam or don't play FM12.

Nobody can do anything.

Personally - I think a lot of people are overreacting to the Steam thing.

[smgers]

Well there you have it - years of being a loyal customer and buying every yearly update and then SI/Sega go and **** all over you - ****ing typical!

[Chris Ritchie]

And by the way, What else are you supposed to say? How about offering an alternative??

There's no real point in arguing it further. It seems that there'll be no alternative except not buying the game. I'm 99% sure that's the path I'll take.

[Legionaire]

More and more pc games are either steamworked or required online activation these days, so this doesnt really affects me.

[Kriss]

I get the feeling another way this will impact sales is that for customers like me' date=' who don't always fancy buying the 'yearly update' (yeah it's a cliche i know) would simply settle for playing older versions with updated databases. especially if the features aren't justifiable of another £30 anyway. FM11 is a great game and I increasingly dont see the need to rush out and download steam so i can play FM12... SI should be concentrating on the quality of the product itself, not just banking on that the same old suckers 'will buy it anyway and the people who dont like it can shove it'[/quote']

Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?

[kwillett]

This is why we're going to provide as much customer care as we can in regards to FM and Steam. If you're having issues with offline mode, we'll be able to try and help. With offline, the best way to get it to work would be, for example with FM12, would be once the game is installed, set Steam to offline mode and set it to start in offline mode. Close Steam, disconnect from the Internet and launch the game. It should launch with no issues.

Completely pointless post... we dont want help with steam problems.. if there is no steam layer, there are no steam problems. WE DONT WANT STEAM. give us another option, If I buy a game in a shop I want to play it from the CD/DVD, when I buy a film DVD it does not need 3rd party software to play in my DVD player and Im sure piracy is just as big a problem in the movie market. Frankly your reasons for using steam exclusively just dont make any sense

[Lazaru5]

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FM09 release 'hardest' day of Jacobson's career

http://n4g.com/news/262918/fm09-release-hardest-day-of-jacobsons-career

I wonder if 21st October 2011 might surpass both Miles' "hardest day of his career" and the number of people online record... wotcha reckon?

[milnerpoint]

wow 8 pages now, im sure SI and SEGA were well aware of the outcry this would cause, but i am also sure they have looked at the figures and are confident this will work out for them. Theres not much else to be said, this will happen for FM12 no doubting that, if its succesful it will carry on, if not they will look at it again. I actually do understand some of the concerns, apart from the resource and privacy issues, they are nonsense, i personally have never had a steam issue or a problem using it offline but if people do have issues then this could really work against SI, they shouldnt really be having to worry about spending any time or resources on steam.

There was outcry when they first introduced DMR, and these things will never be everyone's cup of tea, but sadly because of piracy, which despite what anyone says is theft, this is the way things will go, in a few years time i can see most games on most formats being sold this way.

[Smurf]

The more I read these repsonses (not directed at anyone) the more I have to say people are overreacting.

It's not hard to install Steam. It's not a memory hog. It won't slow down your computer. It won't do anything malicious, like mine data, or sell your soul.

It will allow you to activate FM 12

And that's all it is an activation. It takes 2 minutes after installing the game. After that pop it into offline mode - there you go.

I literally much ado about nothing.

[kccircle]

Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum

[Chris Ritchie]

Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?

Ask BertieBG, who's already informed us that they'll make more money this way and therefore create better games.

[Kriss]

There's no real point in arguing it further. It seems that there'll be no alternative except not buying the game. I'm 99% sure that's the path I'll take.

If I felt as you obviously do I'd wait to see how it all goes and make a decision after that, from my own experiences I think those who do use Steam for the first time won't find it the ogre they expect it to be.

[Kriss]

Ask BertieBG, who's already informed us that they'll make more money this way and therefore create better games.

Yeh but that's a plus surely, not a minus:confused:

[7Bestie7]

Yes but if steam is great and works for you then there is no problem. You can buy the game and enjoy it. Why wind up the people who have concerns which they would like addressed (even if some of these concerns are stupid or poorly conveyed).

Because this thread is pretty much 75% of people either telling everyone how bad Steam is or how wrong it is that they have to use it. Now while the latter might be a valid point, the former certainly needs balancing out for those who have never actually used Steam before.

[Guest]

I get the impression that there are people within SI who are sympathetic towards the no to Steam group but for obvious corporate reason their hands are tied on this issue. I'm basing this one the tone of some of the post that I've read & the fact the the likes of Neil are still posting at this late hour on a Friday & this leads on to the customer service point, how many companies can you think off that would have key employees communicating with their consumer base in this way?

I believe people do not fully understand what true customer srevice is, what it isn't is bending over backwards to change a situation that cannot be changed to suit the needs of a minority, for those that have not been paying attention I am part of that minority who do not want a 100% Steam activation system.

[jptykes]

Even so I'm pretty sure you're in a tiny minority and you have an issue that is probably resolvable.

And assuming it's not resolvable - as it wasn't in the past - I've spent £30 on a shiny coaster to put my cuppa on while playing FM11 and a replacement dvd case. Hardly value for money.

And while I may be in a minority in experiencing this particular problem, the minority of those who are anti-Steam for other reasons is larger and very much unhappy.

Ultimately nothing will change SI or Sega's stance, it's just unfortunate this has been announced so late and with no alternative.

[Chris Ritchie]

Yeh but that's a plus surely, not a minus:confused:

I'd rather not comment on what a statement like that is

[SeanNUFC]

The more I read these repsonses (not directed at anyone) the more I have to say people are overreacting.

It's not hard to install Steam. It's not a memory hog. It won't slow down your computer. It won't do anything malicious, like mine data, or sell your soul.

It will allow you to activate FM 12

And that's all it is an activation. It takes 2 minutes after installing the game. After that pop it into offline mode - there you go.

I literally much ado about nothing.

But ofcourse then there's those that all of a sudden don't have the internet or just want the choice or those who want to just bitch and moan.

[Kriss]

Im in the bracket that Im not really fussed with this change

Nearly spat my beer out at the post on a previous page with a poster stating they had no access to the internet whilst posting on an online forum

Can't let the obvious truth spoil a good rant now can we?

[Wiggins Top Boys]

Errr, what exactly has deciding to use Steam for authentication to do with the quality of FM?

i'm saying that SI may have to increase the quality of their yearly update to compensate for customers potentially lost by this steam issue otherwise users may stick with older versions with updated databases if they dont feel that the product on offer is also sufficient quality.

let's face it, there are people here that don't like this steam activation but if the game was groundbreaking enough or had an amazing new feature (perhaps a new hat?) then they would still buy it anyway...

just thinking out loud. i know i'd rather just update FM11 with a better database than buy FM12 at this moment in time as FM12 doesn't offer me something that would make me bite the bullet and conform to the steam masses