Miles Jacobson

Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

216 posts in this topic

There have also been improvements in the way that the newgens are generated, with country based positional “traits” now being used. In Brazil, for example, it’s rare that they have natural wingers in real life, with those players more likely to be wing backs, so you’ll see less Brazilian newgen wingers, and more Brazilian newgen wing backs.

The same can also be said of a players mental attributes. Players in Brazil, due to the way they grow up playing the game, are more likely to have flair. Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game. All of these traits are now reflected better in game.

thank you! <3 this will make my brazil games even more enjoyable.

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@Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?

Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?

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I play at Lower League levels (not LLM rules though!) - so... a couple of questions:

A/ Does this mean that after the inherited Youth squad are rationalised (i e sacked or promoted) all Youth prospects will be non contract (i e no more huge compensation costs for dismissalls) but you can keep drafting prospects though year on year on a non contract basis for assessment. Presumably the Board wont close the Academy because you have no Youth team?

B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?

I think:

A) youths already at the club who have a contract will cost to release only newgen will have the option of ot having a contract throught the assesment phase. I do any with your youth team then you will get no prospects coming through

B) Yes you can request to re-open through the Board Request but will be based on finances etc.

EDIT: I think you will start from the lowest and will have to develop it again, so if you close good facilities you would start back on basic.

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I like the new features concerning the youth setup. Very useful for those managing at every level and caters to everyones playing style in the way in which it can be run. Will definately be spending more time with my youth setup I can see now.

As for the traits, I think it will be a good addition personally, so long as they are not overpowering and it is clear to see. All in all, I'm actually really looking forward to getting my hands on the new game and playing with the few new features that have been announced already.

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Is the national traits thing dynamic? 4-4-2 is much less popular nowadays in general, but could make a return in the future. Likewise 3-at-the-back formations could become popular down the line depending on where things go.

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@Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?

Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?

They're called paragraphs, and they make a longer article easier to read...

The biggest difference for me is the way youth is recruited, ie picking out the talent. It's basically having loads of players scouted for you, and then weeding out the boys from the men - a lovely addition for those of us where youth becomes the game's major selling point after a few seasons. In FM11 there were no nation-specific traits (another feature I think boosts the realism - not sure why people are complaining), and obviously in FM11 you couldn't be rid of your academy. That is the one feature I'm unsure about, as I'm not sure it ever really happens in real life?

Overall though, this is the best blog update yet. Excited now :)

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B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?

Post #31

xxx

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@Miles: Why you write like a child and put extra space between every line?

Some one please write shortly here what's the difference to fm11 in this?

Probably to keep people interested and make them read it. Even though it would still be the same text, if it had no lines in-between, it would just appear to be a big wall of text and put a lot of people off reading it.

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This seems like a very good rip off from Football Manager LIVE... :)

Maybe there are more in store from the dead pieces of FML..

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Typically around 16.
Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.

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Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.

That will be down to you as manager, if you want a big youth squad you can have one, if you want a small youth squad you can have one

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B) Yes you can request to re-open through the Board Request but will be based on finances etc.

EDIT: I think you will start from the lowest and will have to develop it again, so if you close good facilities you would start back on basic.

I don't think it would always be back on basic, I'd hope it would reflect your national and league reputation. For example, if you closed the academy in the BSS and re-opened it in the PL 15 years later, it would be unrealistic for a PL academy for have a basic youth academy. Maybe average or adequate.

That said, I hope SI have improved the reputation system on FM12, in the last one it was one of the biggest flaws in the game if you progressed though the leagues quickly. I took a club from the BSS to the Championship in four consecutive seasons and the game just hasn't recognised my meteoric rise. If a club did that in real life, they would be extremely well known (think Hoffenheim a few seasons back), so to have my reputation as 'regional' in the Championship is laughable.

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I don't think it would always be back on basic, I'd hope it would reflect your national and league reputation. For example, if you closed the academy in the BSS and re-opened it in the PL 15 years later, it would be unrealistic for a PL academy for have a basic youth academy. Maybe average or adequate.

That said, I hope SI have improved the reputation system on FM12, in the last one it was one of the biggest flaws in the game if you progressed though the leagues quickly. I took a club from the BSS to the Championship in four consecutive seasons and the game just hasn't recognised my meteoric rise. If a club did that in real life, they would be extremely well known (think Hoffenheim a few seasons back), so to have my reputation as 'regional' in the Championship is laughable.

Hopefully someone from SI can confirm

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There have also been improvements in the way that the newgens are generated, with country based positional “traits” now being used.

I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.

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Do feeder/parent clubs affect the nationality of the kids coming through your youth setup? Have you fixed the issue from a couple of years back where if you had Brazilian or any other non-eu kids come through your academy, they all magically had English as a second nationality?

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“So clubs with excellent recruitment networks and state-of-the art facilities have the ability to attract youth players not just from the local regions, but from other continents as well.”

Has the game been coded to simulate clubs like Ajax or Athletic Bilbao. Athletic Bilbao only signing Basque players. While at Ajax the recruitment is focused on firstly local (Amsterdam born/living), then national (Netherlands born/living) players. With foreign players signed only if there is a gap in the squad or they are scouted as players with huge potential (like Eriksen).

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just out of interest have SI thought of letting teams have a "youth scout" who you can use to search for specific types of players from the schools? I'd love to be able to tell my scouts to go out and find me some under15's that I could then sign to the youth team through this system - an example?

I assume this question is asking if you can play poacher on academy graduate trialists at other clubs? I'd like to know that too, I assume you'd have to shortlist and wait to see if they are released.

If not - then it is very easy to have a scout with high potential skill search only for young players when assigning scout tasks. I typically scout the U18 league competitions constantly and it turns up a few quality finds per season (whether they are already on a pre-contract or not is another thing...)

You can do the attribute-specific youth search already too. Find the button on the add scouting assignment screen that lets you specify restrictions. Beware that 95% of all scouts will be next to useless at finding very specific players, or scouting anywhere you haven't a) added a country to the game save database, or b) run an active league (and you need youth leagues too).

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I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.

It comes down to training, development and retraining positions. For years England stuggled for natural left-footed winger but one or two have come through Adam Johnson being one, Stewert Downing another one.

Hopefully the traits are dynamic if not now but can be adapted in the next installment, So after say 10 years different types of players are more likely to be developed to create a new era.

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I didn't like this when I first read it, and the more I think about it, the more I don't like it.

Homegrown and Foreign player rules spring to mind. Are there going to be enough players, with suitable attributes and positions, to build a team within your nation's regulations?

Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.

Surely this is just reflecting what happens in real life though?

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I assume this question is asking if you can play poacher on academy graduate trialists at other clubs? I'd like to know that too, I assume you'd have to shortlist and wait to see if they are released.

If not - then it is very easy to have a scout with high potential skill search only for young players when assigning scout tasks. I typically scout the U18 league competitions constantly and it turns up a few quality finds per season (whether they are already on a pre-contract or not is another thing...)

You can do the attribute-specific youth search already too. Find the button on the add scouting assignment screen that lets you specify restrictions. Beware that 95% of all scouts will be next to useless at finding very specific players, or scouting anywhere you haven't a) added a country to the game save database, or b) run an active league (and you need youth leagues too).

It wasn't aimed at poaching other clubs graduates as I do that anyway with a high JP scout - what I'd like is to be able to tell my "youth scout" to go and find players for my upcoming graduate list, so if I say I my preference is DC with Pace of 10+ then when my graduate list comes up there would be more chance of them being what I'm looking for - does that make sense?

Basically scouting for my new youth team players - as with what happens in real life when scouts turn up to local under 9, 10, 11,12, 13, 14 and 15 games looking for talent for their academies.

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A very good overhaul change to the youth system after many games...

Very good job guys.

So the better youth facilities are, the better chance of having more talented youth trials???

or is the youth facilities quality is only for training purposes?

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Surely this is just reflecting what happens in real life though?

FM isn't real life. My comment is based on SIs more aggressive stereotyping of players and their positions, possibly leading to too large a bias towards certain positions and/or attributes within a given country.

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It wasn't aimed at poaching other clubs graduates as I do that anyway with a high JP scout - what I'd like is to be able to tell my "youth scout" to go and find players for my upcoming graduate list, so if I say I my preference is DC with Pace of 10+ then when my graduate list comes up there would be more chance of them being what I'm looking for - does that make sense?

Basically scouting for my new youth team players - as with what happens in real life when scouts turn up to local under 9, 10, 11,12, 13, 14 and 15 games looking for talent for their academies.

The Graduates are not real until the game generates them. Youngest at a push 14 I would expect. So each club well go through the evaluation process and decided who to offer contracts to you should be able to offer these player a contract becuase effectivly they are still unattached. But by the time your scout finds everyone with 10+ Pace the majority will most prob have signed a contract. It's similar to like it is now but instead of being told of the influx of new youth, you decided who to pick from the list either there and then or after the trail period. In effect the Acadamy doesn't exist in the game the same has it is now. (I could be wrong but it's not in Miles Blog, could come under the section where he said theres more but we will have to wait for the game to find out for ourselves)

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FM isn't real life. My comment is based on SIs more aggressive stereotyping of players and their positions, possibly leading to too large a bias towards certain positions and/or attributes within a given country.

It reflects it though.

Post 70 is more what I was thinking.

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if you read back over the posts my SI you'll see that there won't be a stereotype, or at least they hope. It's just traits and a mold to begin with new gens.

If I'm being cynical I see this going wayward, with Brazil having a pool of 36 world class full backs to choose from and no wingers (or something similar), until a patch.

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Considering the game can be played over a great many years, restricting the types of players to a certain era, based on their nationally, seems odd.

The "era" question was something similar to mine further up. Would love to hear from SI on this.

Post 44.

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Considering how heavily-weighted the match engine traditionally is towards high physical attributes, isn't this just going to lead to English clubs and players becoming even more dominant as the game goes on?

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YES YES YES! The ability to save a few bucks in youth contracts and cherry pick the best prospects will make struggling lower league clubs a little easier to manage. I absolutely love the idea of an evaluation match as well. Top stuff.

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'Positional traits' aside, will the tactics a team uses (including those set for youth team) influence the positions of the Youth Candidates?

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like the sound of this and all the other new features. I have to say I am guilty of not developing in-club youth and normally buy from other clubs, or cash in on what I have, but would be good to have influence on potential new talent and to excellent idea to be able to see them in action before making decisions.

Another quality addition to the game.....cannot wait to get my hands on a copy of the game!!!

Nice one SI.

!!!

roll on 21st October !!

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So, rather than having a group of 10 or so youths dropped on you at the beginning of the season, you'll get to pick from a group of 16 or so. Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but what's so good about that? Rather than just disposing of the rubbish youths after they have been put in the U18s, you now get to reject them and ensure that only the good ones get to the U18. Is that it? Doesn't seem that useful, what am I missing?

DISCLAIMER: Despite the negative post I'm still nailed on to purchase FM12 on release day so please no flaming!

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I'm loving the new feature that allows us to pick the new season's youth players. You can see every season in FM11 which players will perhaps make it and which won't and yet your lumbered with them anyway. I mean i can see a slight problem if no one good comes through and for a season or two the youth and reserve teams look a bit bare.

All in all if implemented correctly this could be a cracking new feature!

But also with the youth players you need to sort out how greedy they are. I mentioned it in other threads but a no hoper asking for £2,000 a week? They'd get thrown not just out, but out a window for asking for that. And believe me, it's not just 1-2 a season, it's more like 7-8 players each year!!

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I usually sorted the youth players by value. A 16 year old worth £2m would usually make it ok. Whereas a 16 year old worth €2k probably wouldn't.

I think this will really draw on you to pick the best of the best, and not let that £2m 16 year old player go off. I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

It just adds another bit of depth to the game. I don't think any manager just turned up one day 10 new footballers at the training ground. Surely the coaches of the youth academies make their recommendations to the manager and the manager then makes the decision based on coach and scout reports + the match against current youth sides. That really to me reflects reality and adds a bit more realism and depth to the game.

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I keep getting confused with either tactics influence what positions you get or positon depth. The formation I'm playing with is a tactic that Claudio Raneiri was with Juventus DR-DRC-DLC-DL, DMRC-DMLC, MR, AML, STRC-STLC.

So there is no need for me to have MCs unless I decided to change my tactic with is unlikely at the moment. So my team is sort on MCs which aspect has biggest pull, Tactics or Positon Depth

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I'm loving the new feature that allows us to pick the new season's youth players. You can see every season in FM11 which players will perhaps make it and which won't and yet your lumbered with them anyway. I mean i can see a slight problem if no one good comes through and for a season or two the youth and reserve teams look a bit bare.

All in all if implemented correctly this could be a cracking new feature!

But also with the youth players you need to sort out how greedy they are. I mentioned it in other threads but a no hoper asking for £2,000 a week? They'd get thrown not just out, but out a window for asking for that. And believe me, it's not just 1-2 a season, it's more like 7-8 players each year!!

The feature is allowing you to offer a Youth contract to these candidates.

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I usually sorted the youth players by value. A 16 year old worth £2m would usually make it ok. Whereas a 16 year old worth €2k probably wouldn't.

I think this will really draw on you to pick the best of the best, and not let that £2m 16 year old player go off. I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

It just adds another bit of depth to the game. I don't think any manager just turned up one day 10 new footballers at the training ground. Surely the coaches of the youth academies make their recommendations to the manager and the manager then makes the decision based on coach and scout reports + the match against current youth sides. That really to me reflects reality and adds a bit more realism and depth to the game.

I would be surprised if these candidates had values.

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Something I was asking for years back, so definitely a step in the right direction.

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The feature is allowing you to offer a Youth contract to these candidates.

That's exactly what I said later on in the post

I imagine trialists don't get a value. So it will make it harder in picking out the better players.

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EDIT/ADDITION: Also, with regard to the issues about national templates, and "eras" - it would be interesting to see the ability in a future version to choose your own youth system's 'templates' so that the 'national templates' become an aggregation of the youth systems in that country. This way, if Barcelona suddenly started (bizarrely) emphasize slow hulking target men, and other Spanish teams follow, it influences the development of new players and playing styles from Spain.

Now this would be a great addition later on down the line. Being able to create a true Barca/Ajax system of playing which influences the youth setup is something that I've wanted for ages. Even so, I love what has been talked about in this section.

And for those complaining that over time the national styles should be allowed to change, I'll argue that this a major shift in the style of a nation's play isn't something that happens often. You have Brazil who moved to wing-backs, yes, but then partner that with Argentina who STILL obsess about the #10 and playing 4-3-1-2. Even with watching Barca/Ajax/Spain in the modern era, there are a great many English managers, coaches and pundits/reporters who obsess about having great work effort, playing two up-top, using a "proper" #9 and everything else that dates back to the 40s. And don't forget, while the youth products might have a certain preference for short-passing (Spain), this doesn't mean the national team won't evolve after a while if their Spanish FA bring in someone who likes to play direct.

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Ghana tends to produce a vastly different style of footballer than other West African sides. It is a physical reality that Ghanaians tend to be much shorter than the giants of Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast ect.

Because their rivals are bigger and stronger Ghanaian football has adapted to play a short passing high tempo game to take advantage of superior technique, first touch, and stamina.

Their players tend to favour teamwork over individual flair and produce very strong midfielders.

I hope one day we will be able to implement a club philosophy. I might with to encourage the youth academy to favour certain traits over others.

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Is there a minimum number you have to takeon? You have to have enough players to have a team after all.I'm sure youth coaches IRL know certain players probably won't makeit, but they need to keep enough on to have a big enough squad.

Surely there's no minimum; if any of your squads are short due to your decisions, the places will be filled with greys as always.

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Check some of the posts from LLM players.

EDIT: #65 & #80 for example.

Ah fair enough - I really need to have a bash at a LLM game in next year's game.

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Must say I'm feeling very underwhelmed by this years additions. Just doesn't feel there's anything substantually different to FM2011, least excited I've been for a release.

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I have a feeling that they are holding onto a big nugget of an improvement and either its going to be the last blog or we will have to find it ourselves

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Which of the 800 updates/new features do you like the least?

Seen as FM11 only had about 400 new features/updates - I think FM12 will be significantly changed.

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Which of the 800 updates/new features do you like the least?

Seen as FM11 only had about 400 new features/updates - I think FM12 will be significantly changed.

How many of those 400 'changes' were actually meaningful, and not just a button being moved to a different position or some other rubbish?

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