Miles Jacobson

Official Blog Feedback - youth & newgens

216 posts in this topic

Sounds fantastic.. Finally some real improvements to the youth setup :D - loving it!

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Sounds really good- this is an aspect of the game I get a lot of enjoyment out of so I will definitely be looking to cherry pick the players for the youth team. I also feel the traits system sounds like an interesting concept but i would hope that its just a general pattern and there would be exceptions to the rule.

ie the odd classy Brazilian winger or a Brazilian with low flair.

Overall though it sounds like some good concepts to influence the youth system at the club though I would question about te home grown status of foreign youths at the club. Would it take them 3 years to become a "trained at club" between 15-21 or would they immediately be considered as home grown (0-21)?

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Really good read and great feature too. I've never really bothered with the youth set up but I think I may give it a whirl now.

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If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?

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Now this I DO like. As a financially-challenged lower league manager, it's hugely frustrating to have a bunch of hopeless youth dumped on you that you have to pay to release - you never wanted them in the first place! Now we get control over that - marvellous.

I thought regional traits for newgens was already in the game - hope it works better in FM12. Can just see the British kids coming through - all strength and pace and 1s for technical and mental attributes!

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Can't wait to see the extra changes. Really like the new youth promotion. step closer to mabye not linking them to a position to start with (Hopefully). So once we view them through their trialist period if we want them we decided their position. Going to definatly need a top quality assistant manager to have accurate reports.

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If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?

Yes & kind of - you can request via the board requests and by joining a youth league at the start of the season, but you can't make it a requirement before joining a club.

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Not too happy with this, by this I mean national traits. It was supposed to be in FM11 and really didn't work well. Someone mentioned above, I hope this isn't a blanket thing and there will still be flair players from England and tough tackling defensive mids from Brazil. I fear for this I really do.

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If you can request for youth team to be abolished, can AI teams do this too? And if so, when you are negotiating to take over a club that has no youth team set up can you make it a requirement of you taking over that the youth setup be re-introduced?

I assume that would be the case with the AI mabe depends on the Chairman Business Rating, But don't think it will be like a contract clause type thing just have to pursuade them to start building one.

EDIT: nice one miles on the ball

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Love it love it love it. I get hugely involved with the youth side of FM and getting to have a youth team vs assessed youth game is excellent. Hopefully also the scale which lets you know how good your recruitment is will be available so you can see you have 7/8 level instead of very good etc.

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I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.

Can a country's characteristics change as formations change and time moves on in the game, or are they set? Can they be edited by us?

but overall i think the new changes sound really great.

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Liking this. :thup: I only really play long-term games so this is a really key part of the game for me.

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I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.

Nowadays Majority of brazilian wingers are either retrained AMC or ST or a Dani Alves style of player

EDIT: Mancini on FM11 is an AMR, Willian is Natural AMC and so is Augusto

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I really don't agree about Brazil not producing wingers, their old world cup winning teams had them, indeed maybe the greatest of them all, Garrincha. And I was a huge fan of Denilson (the '90's one!). I don't follow football so much nowadays, but even I know of Amantino Mancini and Willian, and doesnt Renato Augusto play on the wing? If they are low on wingers, surely that's a fashion of the moment, not a historically defined characteristic (as flair would genuinely be) in their culture for example.

Spot on, it's why I think this "feature" won't work and may be counter productive.

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The ability to filter out the 'chaff' so to speak (don't let the players hear that) is going to be a real boon. I loathe having to negotiate crappy one-season contracts for the useless youth newgens (cheaper) - but this keeps the micro-micro management aspect alive plus makes it more realistic and time saving. Brilliant addition. I like the attribute changes if they are well balanced (racial physical attribs too or not going there?)

Nice to hear Miles talk about balancing those of us who strive for the "hands on: 20" rating and those who think that's too crazy!

Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?

edit: related other question, can we now ask our scouts to assess our team? Apologies if this has been added already since I play FM09. It is rare to find a coach who is good AND has 20/20 vision for potential. And it's stupid the manager can't ring up head scout to look at a youth system player (assmans are rarely good at potential I find).

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You could always retrain a brazilian wingback to play attacking winger?

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Not too happy with this, by this I mean national traits. It was supposed to be in FM11 and really didn't work well. Someone mentioned above, I hope this isn't a blanket thing and there will still be flair players from England and tough tackling defensive mids from Brazil. I fear for this I really do.

Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along :)

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The ability to filter out the 'chaff' so to speak (don't let the players hear that) is going to be a real boon. I loathe having to negotiate crappy one-season contracts for the useless youth newgens (cheaper) - but this keeps the micro-micro management aspect alive plus makes it more realistic and time saving. Brilliant addition. I like the attribute changes if they are well balanced (racial physical attribs too or not going there?)

Nice to hear Miles talk about balancing those of us who strive for the "hands on: 20" rating and those who think that's too crazy!

Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?

Yes because they haven't got a contract

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country based positional traits

Not sure I like this.

With FM 2012, we’ve given you more control over which players make it into your youth squad.

But I really like this.

We’ve also improved the way youth recruitment works at different clubs for their youth setup. The club’s youth recruitment network and youth facilities are not only linked to the quality of newgens produced by the youth setup, but also the scope of the recruitment. So clubs with excellent recruitment networks and state-of-the art facilities have the ability to attract youth players not just from the local regions, but from other continents as well.

And this could be awesome.

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T

Question: I like selling the crappy youth for pocket change, are the trialists going to leave on frees?

Yes, they will leave at the end of their trial period naturally unless you offer them a proper youth contract.

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I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.

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Sounds really good; love trying to develop my youth team and so anything that helps that is good news. Hopefully it will now mean I don't consistently get 4 new defensive midfielders 5 strikers and no one else instead I should get a more vaired selection of players in different positions.

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Just to clarify, can you reinstate your youth team after getting rid, and if so, how long would one have to wait until the board allowed it?

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I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.

To use Riz's words

Things like these are never a "blanket thing". They are called traits or templates because they are used as guidelines for the creation of newgens to model some real life tendencies. As in real life, not all players follow these tendencies so there can and will definitely be exceptions to the stereotypical players. Not all players are made from the same mold even if they come from the same nation, but in order to create order from chaos that is newgen creation, we need to have some level of traits to guide the process along

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Just to clarify, can you reinstate your youth team after getting rid, and if so, how long would one have to wait until the board allowed it?

Yes you can, by asking the board to invest in the youth scheme again. The chances for board accepting this naturally depend on the financial situation etc.

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As was said already, not all players will be from that mold of traits. But a majority will. The likes of Spain they do have a short passing game, so it would make sense. But every now and then you'll get a Xabi Alonso, which is probably the only long-range passer (or a small %) of players in the Spain squad that are good at that.

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I don't know why, (like I can talk I'm still playing FM2008), but I see this being counter-intuitive. Unless the code is spot on, doesn't this mean you're always going to get the same types of players from each country or region, and then maybe one or two individual traits? "Players in Spain are more likely to play a short passing game." Regardless of whether it is true or not, I don't think it helps to generalise like that. It is just like when so called pundits say that Italy is all about catenaccio, when frankly it isn't, and when it was, that was in a small era of Italian football. Look at Guidolin and Udinese for example now, or Zeman and Foggia from 1989 to 1994.

Please re-assure me SI that there will still be a random factor in the way youth players develop, and not just based on generalisations. I'm still looking for the right time to buy a new version.

Shouldn't be like that at all. I'm guessing it would go something like this: Spanish new gen being calculated - 20% chance +1 passing; 10% chance + 2 passing; 1% chance +3 passing.

English newgen - 15% chance winger; Brazilian newgen - 4% chance winger.

with thousands of newgens generated every season, you'll still get a big variety.

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One the newgen traits, would be interesting if after a few years, the traits change to bring a different type of football to a country would keep long games interesting with have to change a style of play.

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How many Youth Candidates will there be to choose from?

May depend on you facilities and network,I would have thought

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Not really bothered by any of this. About the biggest issue stopping me from having a game that lasts more than 2 seasons at the moment is because there are hardly any newgens with decent mental or physical stats being added to the gameworld.

Or ones with nonsensical attributes like heading 15, jumping 15, strength 4.

Before someone shouts "peter crouch" at me - he can't actually jump.

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So far so good with the announced changes, I truly hope the updated youth system works.

Now all I have to decide is whether I get the game from launch or wait until everyone else has helped iron out the bugs & buy it in February, considering I was not planning on getting this version as I felt the game hadn't moved on in recent years it's a big :thup: to the guys & gals at SI.

Not really bothered by any of this. About the biggest issue stopping me from having a game that lasts more than 2 seasons at the moment is because there are hardly any newgens with decent mental or physical stats being added to the gameworld.

Or ones with nonsensical attributes like heading 15, jumping 15, strength 4.

Before someone shouts "peter crouch" at me - he can't actually jump. - That's the fault of the English youth system, he never had to jump so he was never taught how

I don't get it, you're not bothered about an improvement that coould potentially fix a long standing issue that you have with the game?

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I like this feature, I like having a tinker with my Youth squads throughout the season, buying players under 18 and throwing them into the Youth squad and then seeing how they go after a couple of seasons. It only has around a 40% success rate for me, but with this new level of interaction with the Youths then I might be able to do much better with my Youth squads.

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So far so good with the announced changes, I truly hope the updated youth system works.

Now all I have to decide is whether I get the game from launch or wait until everyone else has helped iron out the bugs & buy it in February, considering I was not planning on getting this version as I felt the game hadn't moved on in recent years it's a big :thup: to the guys & gals at SI.

I don't get it, you're not bothered about an improvement that coould potentially fix a long standing issue that you have with the game?

No. Nothing in these changes seems to have any impact on the amount of regens with poor mental and physical stats across the entire gameworld. Not to mention the fact that the number of players with ability over 150 plummets season after season. I don't see how these features are relevant to that.

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But there are no "eras" so to speak in FM, so every season is the same. I would agree if for example, Spain's short passing approach was phased out, and let's say during the 2070-80's someone came along with something different and changed their approach. Then the new-gens would also have attributes that make them more suitable for that "era in football". For argument's sake, let's say catenaccio-style counter-attack sweeps across Spain, creating a style of play generally adopted by most teams. Then according to this new feature, youth players develop attributes more intertwined with this approach. Does that happen in FM?

Also, separate question what happens to players past 30? Do they still decline rapidly quickly? Look at Ryan Giggs yesterday as a point in example.

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The positional traits for newgens is a great addition.

In Spain the flat 4-4-2 is almost non existant; We simply don't produce wide midfielders and English-style box-to-box central midfielders are a rarity - you'll either have two DM's playing in a 4-4-2, with attacking midifelders on the wing, or attacking midfielders who are played further back.

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Really like the sound of these improvements. Personally, I probably get the most 'game satisfaction' from bringing through a newgen from my youth team into a first team star. Getting fine-tooth control over who makes it into your youth squad will certainly enhance this experience.

It should also greatly ease the development of the potential stars that one already has in your youth team, without needing to 'clear out the chaff' by releasing players on a free. (I had to payout over €300,000 in dumped contracts for useless youth players in starting a new save with Italian C1A team Atletico Roma - granted that will still be a problem when first taking over a team). Before reading SFraser's Guide to Developing Youth Players I hadn't thought about the potential negative effects of keeping these players around - potentially keeping your starts from getting maximum play time.

EDIT/ADDITION: Also, with regard to the issues about national templates, and "eras" - it would be interesting to see the ability in a future version to choose your own youth system's 'templates' so that the 'national templates' become an aggregation of the youth systems in that country. This way, if Barcelona suddenly started (bizarrely) emphasize slow hulking target men, and other Spanish teams follow, it influences the development of new players and playing styles from Spain.

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This is a good addition. But what about newgen coaches, have you looked into improving that area as well? I remember last versions had issues with newgen coaches having bad mental attributes and their tactical preferences being too similar.

I would hope that area was improved also from FM 2011.

Edit: I would think if you added nation based youth position, the tactical preferences for newgen managers is also tuned for that specific country. I mean if Brazil doesn,t produce that many wingers, having managers that will use tactics with wingers will break the immersion, no?

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sounds like an excellent change and addition to the game - just out of interest have SI thought of letting teams have a "youth scout" who you can use to search for specific types of players from the schools? I'd love to be able to tell my scouts to go out and find me some under15's that I could then sign to the youth team through this system - an example?

well I don't play with any wingers but every year I get 4 or 5 AMR or AML youth players - I know in FM12 I can just release them for free which is great but ideally I'd like to set my search for new youth players to just GK, DC, MC and SC.... does that make sense? (a bit like the loan report option from my assistant)

or I'd like to set an attribute search..... "go find me kids with pace and acceleration of 10+"

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No. Nothing in these changes seems to have any impact on the amount of regens with poor mental and physical stats across the entire gameworld. Not to mention the fact that the number of players with ability over 150 plummets season after season. I don't see how these features are relevant to that.

The last part of the blog said there are more features and improvemnts in the section, so maybe thats one of them wont know until the game is out

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I play at Lower League levels (not LLM rules though!) - so... a couple of questions:

A/ Does this mean that after the inherited Youth squad are rationalised (i e sacked or promoted) all Youth prospects will be non contract (i e no more huge compensation costs for dismissalls) but you can keep drafting prospects though year on year on a non contract basis for assessment. Presumably the Board wont close the Academy because you have no Youth team?

B/ If I close the Academy in the Blue Square BSS to save money, can I reopen / develop one at a later stage as my club climbs the League pyramid and acquires wealth, and how would that work (I ask anytime/ end of season or by Board suggestion to me)?

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