Creating a Potent Tactical System

[chaddy101]

Actually read this when it was first posted and have since played around trying to create my vision.

I've managed to successfully (so far) build a 3-1-2-2-2 formation and I'm enjoying seeing my team play how I want them to.

I'll be honest and admit that some of my theories of how we would defend/attack haven't quite materialised. However, the overall idea is gradually knitting together and I'm very much enjoying the view.

Thanks to you furiousuk for giving me the push I needed to get stuck into the game again. Top work.

[furiousuk]

Glad to have been of help, certainly many of the good posts on here have really increased my enjoyment of FM over the last few years. I use to play the 'realistic' way but I didn't realise quite how much the game rewards a realistic approach. There are many mechanisms in the game which are incredibly subtle and it's surprising that in a commercial game there are so many things that only 5% of players will realise is even happening. SI like to inform us of all their changes but many things often slip through the net and the specifics of how everything works is, I think, sometimes deliberately left blank.

Which is part of why some of the attacking/defending theories don't materialise, is it the players? is it the manager (us)? is it a restriction of the ME? is it the motivation of the players? These are the some of the same questions your average real-life manager asks themselves!

A 31222 sounds pretty interesting. Is that with 3 DC's and a defensive DM? I've been toying with a formation that sounds a little similar to try and tackle very narrow formations (such as 4222 box or 41212) after reading an article on Barcelona vs Villareal over at Zonal Marking. I've often wondered how well FM can handle more outlandish formations, the discussion on the Bielsa system is very popular so I'm guessing it handles them pretty well.

[Sarmatian]

Great stuff, Mr. Fury. I've always wanted to do a 4-5-1 thread, especially as tactics forum was usually dominated by 4-2-3-1 tactics threads but I'm just to lazy to do it. I'm a great fan of the formation as it allows maybe most flexibility in attack as well as great defensive stability.

The thing I've noticed is that with 2 Inside Forwards and one Striker, the space in front of goal tends to get cramped, especially if you use 2 Advanced playmakers on the centre, just like you've said. I've found that putting one of the wingers on Advanced Playmaker works better. He will still be an offensive threat but won't run forward as soon as the team gets the ball.

So, my formation looks like this:

-----------------------gk-----------------------------

FB(auto)-------DC-------------DC----------FB(auto)

---------------------DM(def)-------------------------

---------------DLP(sup)-----AP(sup)----------------

IF(att)-----------------------------------------AP(att)

-----------------------CF(att)-------------------------

The three attacking player all have roaming ticked on and have come deep to get the ball among their preffered moves. Philosophy is very fluid and so far it's the best and most slick football I've ever seen on FM. My players move left and right, up and down to get the ball, they swap positions with each other without special instructions, creating havoc in opposing defence.

One of the most important things I've noticed is that two wingers shouldn't play on the opposite side of their preffered foot. I have my left footed AP(att) playing on the left. His "cut inside" instructions will make him exploit even the slightest amount of space in the centre but his left footedness will make him behave like a more classic winger if the centre is cramped.

[chaddy101]

Glad to have been of help, certainly many of the good posts on here have really increased my enjoyment of FM over the last few years. I use to play the 'realistic' way but I didn't realise quite how much the game rewards a realistic approach. There are many mechanisms in the game which are incredibly subtle and it's surprising that in a commercial game there are so many things that only 5% of players will realise is even happening. SI like to inform us of all their changes but many things often slip through the net and the specifics of how everything works is, I think, sometimes deliberately left blank.

Which is part of why some of the attacking/defending theories don't materialise, is it the players? is it the manager (us)? is it a restriction of the ME? is it the motivation of the players? These are the some of the same questions your average real-life manager asks themselves!

Very true. I find that if you take a little more time to analyse why things did or didn't work then you will get much more enjoyment out of the game from your understanding. A classic for me lately has been when i've accidently forgotten to do a teamtalk before a big game, yet i've cruised the game and won by a high score!

A 31222 sounds pretty interesting. Is that with 3 DC's and a defensive DM? I've been toying with a formation that sounds a little similar to try and tackle very narrow formations (such as 4222 box or 41212) after reading an article on Barcelona vs Villareal over at Zonal Marking. I've often wondered how well FM can handle more outlandish formations, the discussion on the Bielsa system is very popular so I'm guessing it handles them pretty well.

It is indeed that system. My idea defensively was to try and have three defensively capable players who could deal with crosses and through balls all day long. Using the DM as the engine who would cover across to the flanks to put opposition wingers under pressure.

Going forward, I needed two box-to-box CM's and two out-and-out wingers. It's key that the wingers hug the touchline in order to provide valuable width. The strikers would be the typical deeper forawrd and the poacher.

So far this system has served me well, in fact it's exceeded my expectations. The only issue I now face is the second season using this. Teams are starting to set up to stop me playing my system and it's working. It's now upto me to diagnose where my methods are faltering... All part of the challenge

[furiousuk]

One of the most important things I've noticed is that two wingers shouldn't play on the opposite side of their preffered foot. I have my left footed AP(att) playing on the left. His "cut inside" instructions will make him exploit even the slightest amount of space in the centre but his left footedness will make him behave like a more classic winger if the centre is cramped.

This is something I've been toying with as my squad improves and I have more options. Hulk has played wide left for a couple of seasons and plays very differently (with the same instructions) to my right-footed striker-type out there. It's really important to remember that different players play positions differently from each other and is something that I hope the FM series continues to develop. Footedness & PPM's play a massive role in individuality.

I like the idea of an AP matched with an IF to create a lop-sided effect. I have a couple of variations that are asymmetric (or instructionally asymmetric) that work really well in the right situation as I agree with you that against negative sides an attacking up-top trio can cramp the limited space even further.

So far this system has served me well, in fact it's exceeded my expectations. The only issue I now face is the second season using this. Teams are starting to set up to stop me playing my system and it's working. It's now upto me to diagnose where my methods are faltering... All part of the challenge

I've set up very similar but used an AMC instead of the deep-lying striker but I've only very rarely used it and haven't had the players on the pitch when I've used it. I'm encouraged by your success to keep going with it as I'm facing plenty of narrow formations as teams attempt to shut up shop and dominate the central area.

Have you tried using your wingers to man-mark the opposing FB's to try and stop them from moving forward and causing you problems further upfield?

[chaddy101]

I've set up very similar but used an AMC instead of the deep-lying striker but I've only very rarely used it and haven't had the players on the pitch when I've used it. I'm encouraged by your success to keep going with it as I'm facing plenty of narrow formations as teams attempt to shut up shop and dominate the central area.

Have you tried using your wingers to man-mark the opposing FB's to try and stop them from moving forward and causing you problems further upfield?

I can't say I have. In fact I'm rarely troubled by opposition full backs using this formation. I find they seem to be very reluctant to get forward, probably due to them being worried about my wingers. I have been testing them on man-marking the opposition wingers though and this has worked well for me in the few games I've tried it.

As we stand now my tactics are totally abandoning me. We seem unable to recapture any of the form we found last season and it's putting my job under threat. I beleive I know what's wrong, so I think some experiments are needed.

[furiousuk]

As we stand now my tactics are totally abandoning me. We seem unable to recapture any of the form we found last season and it's putting my job under threat. I beleive I know what's wrong, so I think some experiments are needed.

This seems to be more prevalent than previous FMs and is a good move towards a more reactive (and hence, varied) match engine. It provides a constant challenge for those that really pore over the details. I've found that as my team continues to improve I need to find more and more ingenious ways of unlocking stingy defences and still maintaining a dominant force that stops us from leaking dirty set-piece or counter-attack goals. I've even incoporated a 442 (it works kind of like a 4222 box in attack though) in a effort to put 2 up-top against certain defences. I've got to the stage where I've maybe got too many variations now and should phase out some of the older versions as my squad continues to develop.

I've just won the Prem and CL (very lucky draw in the CL) and my rep has taken a massive hike as everyone is keen to tell my scouts how keen they are to join. 3 draws to start the season has shown me that I still need to work on improving my tactical and personel set-up for this season. It's a constant challenge and one that makes the game ever so much more addictive!

[James9]

Furiosuk I am using Robin Van Persie has my loan forward in your 433 tactic. Do you think he would be able to play the complete forward role in this formation or do you think I should use Chamakh has the complete forward and put van Persie on the wing as a inside forward.

I have always had problems in finding the right role and duty for van Persie in a lone forward system. Could you offer me any advice on what role and duty I should use for creative forwards like van Persie because I always buy forwards with good creative attributes.

[furiousuk]

Hi James,

Can you post a shot of Van Persie in your game?

Based on my (admittedly limited) real life experience I'd say that Van Persie is amongst the top 5 forwards in the world right now and could play anyway you ask him, Chamakh is not.

My experience in recent FM is based on starting lower league and working my way up so by the time I'm at the top RvP is aging and the AI were employing him at ML which is almost certainly not his optimal position.

Although I have favoured physical weapons in my save I'd imagine RvP is so incredibly technical and mental that you'd simply have to 'unleash' him to get the best from him. In FM terms I'd play him as a complete forward and try to balance AMR,AML,MCr,MCl. A quick screenie would confirm or deny this but a real top-class all-rounder up-top is extremely rare and shouldn't be shackled by tactical instructions - with RvP you have a real star so let him decide what is best for the role.

In terms of my tactic I'd assume RvP to be a creator (he'll also score just based on how incredibly proficient he is - or probably is in FM terms) which means you'll need finishers on the wings. Walcott should fit fine I think but don't be afraid to fit another striker-type on your left wing to take advantage of creativity at FC (RvP), MCr, MCl.

[James9]

Hi James,

Can you post a shot of Van Persie in your game?

Based on my (admittedly limited) real life experience I'd say that Van Persie is amongst the top 5 forwards in the world right now and could play anyway you ask him, Chamakh is not.

My experience in recent FM is based on starting lower league and working my way up so by the time I'm at the top RvP is aging and the AI were employing him at ML which is almost certainly not his optimal position.

Although I have favoured physical weapons in my save I'd imagine RvP is so incredibly technical and mental that you'd simply have to 'unleash' him to get the best from him. In FM terms I'd play him as a complete forward and try to balance AMR,AML,MCr,MCl. A quick screenie would confirm or deny this but a real top-class all-rounder up-top is extremely rare and shouldn't be shackled by tactical instructions - with RvP you have a real star so let him decide what is best for the role.

In terms of my tactic I'd assume RvP to be a creator (he'll also score just based on how incredibly proficient he is - or probably is in FM terms) which means you'll need finishers on the wings. Walcott should fit fine I think but don't be afraid to fit another striker-type on your left wing to take advantage of creativity at FC (RvP), MCr, MCl.

I have not got a clue of how to do a screenshot of the player and load for you to see. Could you help me with this area. Also if I load the screenshots for my wingers because I seem to struggle with this area as well

[furiousuk]

Hi James,

I have my own webspace but use Imageshack for a lot of my screenshots here. To take a screenshot in-game hit alt-F9 and the resulting screenshot will be saved to your Football Manager folder - mine is C:\Users\Matt\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2011, this is the default so if you haven't fiddled with it this will be where it is (substitute the /Matt/ directory for your user name).

You can either use image editing software (such as photoshop of paint) to 'cut' the relevant details or just post the whole screenshot.

Post the screenies of your wingers and their instructions.

My 'wingers' (i.e AMR/AML) are just inside forward/attack. I tend to use an out-and-out striker type at AMR (Alexey Rudenok / regen) and a more creative player at AML (Hulk / Wellington Silva / Jack Wilshere). Note that the players I've mentioned may have progessed very differently in your save.

[James9]

Hi James,

I have my own webspace but use Imageshack for a lot of my screenshots here. To take a screenshot in-game hit alt-F9 and the resulting screenshot will be saved to your Football Manager folder - mine is C:\Users\Matt\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2011, this is the default so if you haven't fiddled with it this will be where it is (substitute the /Matt/ directory for your user name).

You can either use image editing software (such as photoshop of paint) to 'cut' the relevant details or just post the whole screenshot.

Post the screenies of your wingers and their instructions.

My 'wingers' (i.e AMR/AML) are just inside forward/attack. I tend to use an out-and-out striker type at AMR (Alexey Rudenok / regen) and a more creative player at AML (Hulk / Wellington Silva / Jack Wilshere). Note that the players I've mentioned may have progessed very differently in your save.

Thanks for the info but how do post the screen shots in the forum so you can see my instructions

[furiousuk]

Thanks for the info but how do post the screen shots in the forum so you can see my instructions

The easiest way is to click on the 'Insert Image' button in the reply box (it looks like a little framed tree). From there click on From URL, type in the URL of the image and untick the 'Retrieve Image and Reference Locally' tickbox and click ok and you'll have your image.

Or insert the URL between IMG tags like this:

[ IMG ] www.yourimage.com/image.jpg [ /IMG ]

But without the spaces.

If you're using ImageShack or another file hosting site their will usually be a link called 'Forum Code' in which case you just copy the Forum Code and paste it into your reply.

[James9]

The easiest way is to click on the 'Insert Image' button in the reply box (it looks like a little framed tree). From there click on From URL, type in the URL of the image and untick the 'Retrieve Image and Reference Locally' tickbox and click ok and you'll have your image.

Or insert the URL between IMG tags like this:

[ IMG ] www.yourimage.com/image.jpg [ /IMG ]

But without the spaces.

If you're using ImageShack or another file hosting site their will usually be a link called 'Forum Code' in which case you just copy the Forum Code and paste it into your reply.

I cannot find the insert button in the reply box. Also when i scroll down to my posting permission it says that you may not post attachments. Do you think this is the reason why I cannot post my attachment. Could you let me know how to get permission to post my image. This is really annoying because I need help with my players but if I am not allowed to show my instructions i dont know how to get the help i need.

[furiousuk]

Hmm, try contacting a mod to see why.

Have you tried just using IMG tags?

Mine says I can't post attachments either so that isnt the issue. A mod will know the forum system better than me and should be able to help but wrapping an URL in IMG tags should work just fine.

[jimbobBRFC]

Just found this post, as old as the post is Furious a brilliant write up. Compared to the rest of the league how good is your Southampton team compared player to player. Im just wondering whether a similar system would work with a team who arn't challenging for Europe, a team like Wigan or Newcastle maybe. What sort of system do you use against the big big teams like United etc because I presume you don't attack them as described above.

[Fabian Jonsson]

Just found this post, as old as the post is Furious a brilliant write up. Compared to the rest of the league how good is your Southampton team compared player to player. Im just wondering whether a similar system would work with a team who arn't challenging for Europe, a team like Wigan or Newcastle maybe. What sort of system do you use against the big big teams like United etc because I presume you don't attack them as described above.

Why not?

I usually find it better to go on the offence against "the big guns" when managing a decent team, since they invariably field waaay too attacking teams/tactics against me. I don't care that they have Cavani, Ganso, Aguero, Silva and Nasri up front - when my team successfully and consistently bypasses their entire midfield with one throughball.

[furiousuk]

Just found this post, as old as the post is Furious a brilliant write up.

Thanks, not a lot has changed tactically in the game so it's all as valid in FM12 as it was in FM11. I'm glad to look back at it and see that I still agree with myself!

Compared to the rest of the league how good is your Southampton team compared player to player. Im just wondering whether a similar system would work with a team who arn't challenging for Europe, a team like Wigan or Newcastle maybe.

When I wrote this post my team were probably pretty comparable to real-life Newcastle at the moment. A team chocked full of players who look outstanding but haven't really been consistently tested against the best in the business over the course of a few years - I had been in the Prem for a few years so I was in the situation that Newcastle will be in if they continue to perform for the next couple of years. My team were probably a consistent top 4/6 side at this point which means, of course, that I should be challenging for a QF spot in Europe.

The first 433 in the OP is exactly what I used when before I really hit the top. It's a blunt instrument that makes the best of the pace and power I've got in my team. Pretty similar to the way Mourinho's Chelsea operated.

The 2nd 433 is more interesting from a tactical point of view and asks more of players' technique and intelligence.

I don't think of them so much as a tactic for lesser teams and a tactic for top top teams, more as tools to use when the situation arises. So for me, it's the first one when I know a team will take me on and the 2nd when I know a team is going to park up against me. I tinker quite a lot and have a number of other varieties too so it's gets a little more complicated but essentially those are still my primary options. I'm big on personnel selection which further muddies which system I use when as well.

What sort of system do you use against the big big teams like United etc because I presume you don't attack them as described above.

My team now are approaching Barcelona status as undisputed Kings of Europe (although not this year though!), where I have an immense squad. I'm not quite there yet but I'm easily amongst the top 4 in Europe so there are very very few games where I'm really wondering how to get a result. OL and Bayern have obscene squads though in my save (I'm quite far in so most real boys are approaching retirement) so when I face them I'll be looking primarily to my go-to, blunt-edged first tactic unless there is a specific reason to use a different setup.

I tend to start games on standard mentality, sometimes on control but I haven't used attacking or overload (unless very late on in a game when I'm losing) for years. I've always found that the right combination of shouts at a lower mentality actually produces far more chances and for better chances for my team than cranking up the mentality.

Because of the squad I've got I'm happy to sit and let teams come at me because I know that that plays right into my hands. I've got some hard-workers in midfield who also have the smarts and technique to fire a long pass over or through the opposition to my lightning fast and lethal front 3 who all have the movement to be a real threat when the game breaks up a little.

[jimbobBRFC]

Why not?

I usually find it better to go on the offence against "the big guns" when managing a decent team, since they invariably field waaay too attacking teams/tactics against me. I don't care that they have Cavani, Ganso, Aguero, Silva and Nasri up front - when my team successfully and consistently bypasses their entire midfield with one throughball.

Very good point actually, thinking about it I do attack bigger teams myself haha I have the same idea, attack them when they are weak then shut up shop. still intrerested though Furious.

EDIT: Just seen your post Furious cheers for the reply

Thats the general idea I got, in essence its a tactic against a similar strength team who you arn't too sure about and a tactic for playing a team you know will sit back and try to soak up the pressure. The tactic that has a back two with the DM and WB's in front is that how the formation is actually setup or is it just a representation of how you want it play in the ME, if that makes any sense.

Im planning on starting a save with a team similar to Southampton were in FM11, League 1 but with huge potential to climb the leagues and become a superpower, maybe Leeds. The sheer strength and phisicallity approach seems to be the best idea, using pace and power and then once you become an established side start to try and play more "beautiful" football. Ill be following your approach in the OP when I try to start this.

Finding space is how I always seem to operate and when im planning a tactic (usually when im bored at work) I draw diagrams similar to yours. Showing where I want player to operate and how they will best find space. I think getting it down and really analysing strengths and weaknesses is imperative to doing well. Being able to change and tweak it is also massively important, especially if you want top top hounours were yourplaying against lots of different styles of football.

[furiousuk]

My inner geek makes me draw diagrams too

The diagrams just represent how the formation moves in the ME when I have the ball. Each tactic mentioned here has a flat back 4 - primarily because I'm a stickler for tradition but mainly because I've found there to be almost no difference when attacking with a guy in at FB or a guy at WB but defensively the WB can get caught out of position (this could well be due to not being tactically familiar - I've only tried it as a test with WB's once and decided it wasn't worth it). In fact, I normally have my DR/DL as Full-Backs, the Wing-Back instruction sounds more like I want them to play but with too much freedom to play longer passes and through balls I found they just tend to lose the ball.

The role my DR/DL play for me is primarily as an outlet for my midfield when a more attacking pass is on. The FB's need to be physical enough to run the line and have some defensive ability but I want them to help me keep the ball really so I don't want them to do too much with it unless they are whipping in a cross from the byline on the occasions that they do advance beyond the AMR/AML. Their workrate and physicality mean they will get the ball (sometimes my FB's make as many passes as my midfielders) but if they keep giving the ball back to the opposition by trying passes that they aren't technical enough to pull off then it's pointless. They keep everything going when it breaks down. Very important are FB's for me.

Yeah, like you I'm a big one for creating and exploiting space. I think if you're going to achieve anything tactically then it's essential you focus on space. What's the point in spending millions on a player if you aren't giving that guy the best chance to perform? Even if you are Mr Motivator it's pointless if you've tactically left him in a bad place.

I love the challenge of bringing a team up, Leeds would be a good choice. My FM09 save took Reading to the top. There's a few ambitious clubs around with loads of potential so you've got a bit of choice.

[jimbobBRFC]

My inner geek makes me draw diagrams too

The diagrams just represent how the formation moves in the ME when I have the ball. Each tactic mentioned here has a flat back 4 - primarily because I'm a stickler for tradition but mainly because I've found there to be almost no difference when attacking with a guy in at FB or a guy at WB but defensively the WB can get caught out of position (this could well be due to not being tactically familiar - I've only tried it as a test with WB's once and decided it wasn't worth it). In fact, I normally have my DR/DL as Full-Backs, the Wing-Back instruction sounds more like I want them to play but with too much freedom to play longer passes and through balls I found they just tend to lose the ball.

The role my DR/DL play for me is primarily as an outlet for my midfield when a more attacking pass is on. The FB's need to be physical enough to run the line and have some defensive ability but I want them to help me keep the ball really so I don't want them to do too much with it unless they are whipping in a cross from the byline on the occasions that they do advance beyond the AMR/AML. Their workrate and physicality mean they will get the ball (sometimes my FB's make as many passes as my midfielders) but if they keep giving the ball back to the opposition by trying passes that they aren't technical enough to pull off then it's pointless. They keep everything going when it breaks down. Very important are FB's for me.

Yeah, like you I'm a big one for creating and exploiting space. I think if you're going to achieve anything tactically then it's essential you focus on space. What's the point in spending millions on a player if you aren't giving that guy the best chance to perform? Even if you are Mr Motivator it's pointless if you've tactically left him in a bad place.

I love the challenge of bringing a team up, Leeds would be a good choice. My FM09 save took Reading to the top. There's a few ambitious clubs around with loads of potential so you've got a bit of choice.

Diagrams are king!! The formation im usin at the moment with my Montepellier save is trying to perfect a midfield pivot, extreamly difficult but when it works it works extremealy well.

Right it makes more sense now, so you use flat back four with full backs but give them a more attacking setup. It's a very specific type of FB needed though, as you said a hard working physical defensively sound player. Pretty much perfect really which could be hard to find, especially with being in a lower league with less money to spend.

yeah there are plenty of clubs just deciding which one to go for, never really been into the start with a lower team and bring them up I usually go between top league clubs with potential to be great. Got a Blackburn save (which is customary really) and my Montepellier one, thats about it dont get much time to play so more into the quick fixes rather than really long term games.

[furiousuk]

It's a whole different challenge progressing a team because you're forced into different corners with each passing season. You have to adapt and change your outlook because you constantly go from strugglers, to succeeders to dominators. I always like seeing the progression too.

I always plan to take on a club, do a few years and move but I get a few years in and my backroom staff have picked up, my youth teams are starting to spit a few talented youngsters that I bought a few seasons ago towards the first team and that young star that I got to replace my aging star is just starting to get the goals/assists so I end up staying. Maybe I need to be more ruthless.

Yeah, finding good FB's is nigh on impossible for me. They really need to be 'decent' at everything with a good 'engine' (fairly pacy, preferably very pacy, but extremely fit). I normally end up with out-and-out pacy full-backs who can do a bit with the ball and a backup that is a quick CB who is comfortable out wider. This gives me a few options - the CB-type will generally be more conservative than the attack minded guy and I don't have to touch the tactics.

I'm a big fan of building a 'squad' and trying to pick the right team for the right moment. Despite enjoying a 'tactical' battle I'm always trying to alter my personel in order to alter how I play - the tactics kind-of just go on top of what the players are all about. Like with anything, it's getting a balance that is the challenge I guess.

edit: On another note I'm actually working on a little app that is basically a Tactics Doodle Page that lets you fiddle around with very basic tactical instructions and seeing what might happen when the players start moving. An interactive diagram.

[jimbobBRFC]

It's a whole different challenge progressing a team because you're forced into different corners with each passing season. You have to adapt and change your outlook because you constantly go from strugglers, to succeeders to dominators. I always like seeing the progression too.

I always plan to take on a club, do a few years and move but I get a few years in and my backroom staff have picked up, my youth teams are starting to spit a few talented youngsters that I bought a few seasons ago towards the first team and that young star that I got to replace my aging star is just starting to get the goals/assists so I end up staying. Maybe I need to be more ruthless.

Yeah, finding good FB's is nigh on impossible for me. They really need to be 'decent' at everything with a good 'engine' (fairly pacy, preferably very pacy, but extremely fit). I normally end up with out-and-out pacy full-backs who can do a bit with the ball and a backup that is a quick CB who is comfortable out wider. This gives me a few options - the CB-type will generally be more conservative than the attack minded guy and I don't have to touch the tactics.

I'm a big fan of building a 'squad' and trying to pick the right team for the right moment. Despite enjoying a 'tactical' battle I'm always trying to alter my personel in order to alter how I play - the tactics kind-of just go on top of what the players are all about. Like with anything, it's getting a balance that is the challenge I guess.

yeah completely agree the balance is what you need. Its like having a DM who can pass and play the ball then the absolutde destoryer who you bring on with ten minutes left to really see out the game and just stop every attack thrown his way. Or starting with pace up front and switching to strength and technical ability to force the defenders to change how they play. Making an inspired substitution is IMO one of the best things about this game. Changing it and it all working out is quality, or when you make that slight tweak to a tactic that gets it playing exactly how you want is what FM is about.

Think Im going to for Huddersfield with a save, after a quick look around the GP&TG forum they seem a good base to build on. Just the FB's are a little weak but I will put a lot of funds into improving them.

Ive never really been a fan of the Journeyman career, as you said I usually find myself getting too attached and can never leave the job. Whenever I have left a job the save has lasted next to no time as I just want my old team back and end up qutting.

[Cleon]

This is still one of my favourite threads over the last 2-3 years

[furiousuk]

yeah completely agree the balance is what you need. Its like having a DM who can pass and play the ball then the absolutde destoryer who you bring on with ten minutes left to really see out the game and just stop every attack thrown his way. Or starting with pace up front and switching to strength and technical ability to force the defenders to change how they play. Making an inspired substitution is IMO one of the best things about this game. Changing it and it all working out is quality, or when you make that slight tweak to a tactic that gets it playing exactly how you want is what FM is about.

I think this is an area that FM has really improved on in recent years despite there not being an obvious change in a lot of the ME or tactical delivery method (I know the TC is obviously a huge addition to the game but its essential just a new method for administering the sliders which have formed the delivery method for tactics for years and years).

There's loads of different ways you can approach selecting a team and building a squad so it's good that FM puts such an emphasis on getting this right as selection and motivation are the primary decisions of a coach for, like, 90% of the clubs in existence at all levels.

Ive never really been a fan of the Journeyman career, as you said I usually find myself getting too attached and can never leave the job. Whenever I have left a job the save has lasted next to no time as I just want my old team back and end up qutting.

Good luck with your save and with Huddersfield, a couple of real talented players there at the moment for you to build a team around. Although it's getting on a bit now they were a real powerhouse in my FM09 save.

This is still one of my favourite threads over the last 2-3 years

Praise indeed! Glad you liked it! I think I should of added more as I developed a couple of other 'niche' tactics built off of the framework described here.

[jimbobBRFC]

I think this is an area that FM has really improved on in recent years despite there not being an obvious change in a lot of the ME or tactical delivery method (I know the TC is obviously a huge addition to the game but its essential just a new method for administering the sliders which have formed the delivery method for tactics for years and years).

There's loads of different ways you can approach selecting a team and building a squad so it's good that FM puts such an emphasis on getting this right as selection and motivation are the primary decisions of a coach for, like, 90% of the clubs in existence at all levels.

Good luck with your save and with Huddersfield, a couple of real talented players there at the moment for you to build a team around. Although it's getting on a bit now they were a real powerhouse in my FM09 save.

Yeah I know what you mean, on previous FM's ive always been concerned with bringing in the "best" players. Now I concentrate more on the "right" players but not always the best. If I wanted a winger but already had a pacy dribbler I would go for the more Cut Inside passer techincally brilliant player to give me another option from the same position. Im enjoying scouting, buying and generally the whole game much more now.

From the games Ive played they seem a brilliant team. Im confident of getting out of league 1 first season. Then its just bringing in a good level of player. Got united as a parent club so im expecting Pogba to be my player of the season.

[Riziger]

Great read. I really marvel at how you are so sure of what you want from your team tactically. I think that is one area I have to look into, in what I really want from every part of my team to then translate into the game.

[jimbobBRFC]

Great read. I really marvel at how you are so sure of what you want from your team tactically. I think that is one area I have to look into, in what I really want from every part of my team to then translate into the game.

Personally I think its impossible to gauge how well your playing unless you know specifically what you want from each player. Id consider myself a perfectionist, I could win 2-0 and still not be happy because we were under the cosh for most of the game. I also think it will improve your enjoyment of the game no ends, it really draws me in having a tactical idea and trying to perfect that idea in game.

[Cleon]

Personally I think its impossible to gauge how well your playing unless you know specifically what you want from each player. Id consider myself a perfectionist, I could win 2-0 and still not be happy because we were under the cosh for most of the game. I also think it will improve your enjoyment of the game no ends, it really draws me in having a tactical idea and trying to perfect that idea in game.

Agreed and while it's the most enjoyable part of the game for me personally it's also the most annoying and frustrating part of the game. As I can't stop until I achieve what I want . Failure is not an option

[furiousuk]

Great read. I really marvel at how you are so sure of what you want from your team tactically. I think that is one area I have to look into, in what I really want from every part of my team to then translate into the game.

Cheers!

I always tend to have a plan in mind, it's helps me move in a direction, I'd always worry that if I didn't I wouldn't move in any direction because I'd be tweaking things almost aimlessly and by tweaking one thing might risk breaking another simply because I haven't considered it. At least if I have a clear plan in mind first then I can make logical decisions based on what is going on and what I think should be going on - I don't always get it right of course but that's part of the fun.

You need to be flexible though. You might create what looks like a brilliant system on paper, with plans and counter-plans and backup plans, only to find out that that big lump the opposition are playing is destroying your defensive alignment and that you're not getting the best out of your brilliant but erratic playmaker. It really is a case of watch, amend, watch again.

It's about building a framework though. It certainly isn't rigidly instructing players, quite the opposite in fact. It's about creating a playground for talented players to express themselves. Rather than telling your lightning quick winger he must dribble down the line why not try to set up a system that gets him in space where he can decide whether dribbling down the line is the best option or dribbling at the heart of the opposition would best. If you're spending millions on players I don't know why anyone would want to restrict their talent as a general rule of thumb, there's going to be times when you want to simply follow instructions but if you do it all the time you almost certainly aren't getting the best out of 20M's worth of talent.

You have to be prepared to make mistakes too. If you've seen my Brazilian thread I go through a similar process when defining the tactical setup I want - I devised a plan in my head (alright, there were some squiggles on paper too) and put it into FM as best I could. It was crap. The players didn't move as I wanted, it didn't create many passing lines (and thus didn't create many opportunities) and was pretty boring and mundane. So I learnt the lessons, put my pride down and tried again. The 2nd revision looked better and I took it from there. This takes a while (particularly in international management). I might change things in-game because it'll be necessary but I won't start developing a plan B or C until plan A looks pretty good. I need to know what shouts/tweaks work and what don't before looking at implementing a plan B that deals with those shouts that don't work.

[ShirazS]

I love reading this thread over and over again. Every time I read it, I pick up on something new that I did not fully grasp previously. Awesome work furiousuk!

[Reedy_1988]

^ Glad you bumped this, hadn't noticed this thread before i've skim read it so far and it seems very informative will read thoroughly later on, well done Furiousuk

[Siven]

Interesting read.

Gonna have to try some of this info out with my Liverpool team as we are struggling breaking down some teams and i use the same formation.

Do you use a playmaker at all btw? I have always tended to not have a playmaker set, so selecting none in team instructions, as i'd rather the team not focus passing to 1 individual as he could get crowded out. Same thing with a targetman, always set it to none even if i use the likes of Carroll (whom i'm selling as hes not fast enough for my liking).

Oh, also with the inside forward positions, i have had more success with them when i have changed their wideplay instructions from cut inside to normal. I found far too often they would dribble with the ball inside and just lose the ball without doing anything near the middle of the pitch, yet when i used normal they were far more threatening as they would cut inside (but not to the extent of losing the ball often in the middle of the pitch), but they would also make more threatening runs at and through the defense.

[furiousuk]

Do you use a playmaker at all btw? I have always tended to not have a playmaker set, so selecting none in team instructions, as i'd rather the team not focus passing to 1 individual as he could get crowded out. Same thing with a targetman, always set it to none even if i use the likes of Carroll (whom i'm selling as hes not fast enough for my liking).

Don't use a designated playmaker or targetman for the Same reasons as you - I don't want to bias my team through one guy. In the case of the playmaker there is absolutely no way that one guy can be in the 'best' position all the time, my team have decent mentals so I'd like them to exercise their smarts and choose the best pass for the situation as they decide.

Oh, also with the inside forward positions, i have had more success with them when i have changed their wideplay instructions from cut inside to normal.

Interesting idea. I've always found my guys are fine moving inside, when I play narrow they can get very central but it's normally alright because I've got other players moving off them.

[R0ca]

Furious - Are you still playing fm2011?

I'd be interested to see some PKM's if you are

[furiousuk]

Yep, I'll post a couple up the Pkm of the game I played earlier against Aston Villa when I get a few mins tonight. Interesting 6-0 game that links with a couple of things I've been banging on about recently.

[R0ca]

Yep, I'll post a couple up the Pkm of the game I played earlier against Aston Villa when I get a few mins tonight. Interesting 6-0 game that links with a couple of things I've been banging on about recently.

Cheers mate i look forward to watching them, glad your still on fm11 too!

[furiousuk]

I've had a bit of a break recently but there is still plenty I want to do with my fm11 save yet!!

[R0ca]

I've had a bit of a break recently but there is still plenty I want to do with my fm11 save yet!!

Agreed, i need to build more variation into my teams which is the next step for me, tend to hoar playmakers and poachers. Although it seems like jumping, aggression and bravery are hard to find on my long term game

[furiousuk]

Agreed, i need to build more variation into my teams which is the next step for me, tend to hoar playmakers and poachers. Although it seems like jumping, aggression and bravery are hard to find on my long term game

I still look back on my FM09 save with a sense of longing! Reckon I could still name you most of my 1st team squad!

Have you noticed none of the keepers have any team work or work rate?

Work rate I can understand but for a guy who should be organising his defence teamwork is important (although I'm pretty sure this is covered by communication in the ME, negating the need for teamwork, but still).

[R0ca]

I still look back on my FM09 save with a sense of longing! Reckon I could still name you most of my 1st team squad!

Have you noticed none of the keepers have any team work or work rate?

Work rate I can understand but for a guy who should be organising his defence teamwork is important (although I'm pretty sure this is covered by communication in the ME, negating the need for teamwork, but still).

Don't underestimate teamwork in goal keepers for the single reason that it will mean they play to tactical instruction, As you have a big target man long keeps upfield aren't too bad but in a team full of midgets it would cause some issues!

PS you've made me start a new game

[furiousuk]

PS you've made me start a new game

Good good!

[furiousuk]

Southampton vs Aston Villa

09.01.21

Here's a pkm from a game against Aston Villa. To set the scene I've been on a sparkling run of something like 15 games whilst scoring 48 goals or something, then lost 1-0 away to my main rivals oil-rich Spurs (still got a bit of a lead in the league though) so I'm looking for the boys to bounce back against Villa.

Villa begin the game with a 442 diamond so I go with the first 433 shown in this thread. This allows me to mark their 3 most offensive players whilst covering the wings and also leaving my MC's in acres of space to be creative. With this is mind I picked my 2 most attacking and fast FB's, I put Kovacic (my most creative midfielders) alongside Sandro (who is not bereft of creative ability) with a fairly creative youngster in at DMC. I picked my allrounder up top with 2 lethal guys as IF.

Whilst Villa haven't been doing too bad (think they were 12th or 13th) they shouldn't be a match so my plan was to beat them right in the middle of the pitch with creativity so I stuck with the original tactic because I wanted some space in the game and I also played wider and passed into space right off the bat. I also quickly changed to control, I didn't mind pushing up a little to further 'squash' their AMC and keep him out of the game. I quickly changed to exploit the flanks as my IF's were getting lots of change early on. I used a fairly standard set of OI's based on the opposition which made sure I tight marked their AMC and closed down their DMC whilst hard tackling both of them. Didn't need to change much during the game so that was pretty much it - I changed to a 4312 late on but the game was already well won by then.

There's some absolute beauties in there.

I'm writing a post about some more unusual roles that can be incorporated into your tactical scheme and one of the goals is a perfect example, I will say no more at the moment but the goal is an absolute gem.

You can just watch the highlights

- although they won't show you too much about the tactics!

[video=youtube;COZfRlGgwJI]

Southampton vs Fulham

30.10.15

As I was fiddling with pkm's and youtube etc I found this little saved match from back in the day. Check out the first goal, starting with a Cunningham throw-in on the left at 38:21. I think I counted 19 passes to the goal - pretty impressive for a newly promoted side (or nearly new, I forget which year I got promoted). Think Brendan Rogers must of watched this!

Let me know if you can download and watch the pkm's. I've never fiddled with saved matches before but think I've got it right.

[R0ca]

Thanks for the skin @ sliders mate can't believe i missed that thread

Watching PKM now.

[R0ca]

First of all sorry for the double post -

Secondly, I'd just like to say this thread is very good for those people who are starting out building tactics for themselves. It gives you a basic framework to work from as well due to it's nature encouraging building squads which have variety.

Another thing this system allows is for a good manager to exploit the oppositions weakness', Eg If your opponent is playing with a midget fullback who's quick, Why not play your CR7 type Inside forwards and put some crosses into the back post? It just gives so much flexibility

Furious after downloading and looking at your tactics one thing did surprise me, is their a reason why you allow you keeper to kick it long from goal kicks?

[craigcwwe]

Just read though this thread today, great work Furiousuk

Really well explained and easy to understand.

Going to start a new save with your tactics and see how i do.

Not sure what team to go for mind. Thinking of a lower division team but with big potential.

[furiousuk]

Another thing this system allows is for a good manager to exploit the oppositions weakness', Eg If your opponent is playing with a midget fullback who's quick, Why not play your CR7 type Inside forwards and put some crosses into the back post? It just gives so much flexibility

Yeah it's an advantage of keeping it simple, and a deliberate advantage. I think it's why I end up using the primary tactic so often - because I can tweak away and know that the shouts really will change how I play. I've been working on several ways to attack without attacking (sounds like something Bruce Lee would say) and I'm in the process of writing it up at the moment.

The flexibility is something I think tactical systems should include. This post shows 4 variants on a theme and I'm sure it's easy for anyone else to come up with more depending on who they have in their squad.

Furious after downloading and looking at your tactics one thing did surprise me, is their a reason why you allow you keeper to kick it long from goal kicks?

Yeah, I'm not sure either! I turned it to DL distribute in a couple of the variants, not sure why it's still long in the main one. Probably because my team can normally outmuscle others and get it from the kicks, I should probably pay more attention to that though!

Just read though this thread today, great work Furiousuk

Really well explained and easy to understand.

Going to start a new save with your tactics and see how i do.

Not sure what team to go for mind. Thinking of a lower division team but with big potential.

Taking a team to glory, or returning a team to glory, is always a good save.

Remember the actual tactics I use are best with powerful, quick teams with a good splattering of mental and technical ability in the middle. The thought processes, however, are suitable whichever way you want to go tactically.

Also, I think playing 41221/433 or 4231 is pretty difficult unless your back four (+ DM) are all mentally very strong. It's sometimes hard to get that lower down. I predominantly used a 442, 4141 or 4411 on my way to the top due to the stability of having MR/ML and 2 banks of 4 players. Other systems require more teamwork and smarts.

[retrodude09]

I've read this about three times now, and I have to say, it definitely ranks up there with some of SFraser and Cleon's threads. Superb read.

I think the most interesting thing for me is it's already allowed me to see some areas where I can change things up in my tactic and because of this thread, I've realised just how important the 'RFD' setting is, just because you set a player up to RFD rarely, doesn't mean he won't get forward, it just means he'll get forward more cleverly if that makes sense? especially if they're an intelligent player.

This thread and SFraser's 'Meet The System' thread have inspired me to try and create something similar to what Spain/Germany do in building the attack down one side, and then quickly switching the ball to the opposite flank in order to play someone in. Previously, I thought the only way to do this would be to focus the passing down one flank, but now because I understand the 'RFD' setting a lot more now, I think I know how to set it up.

Thanks for this Furious, as well as providing a great tactical insight, I think you've encouraged me to write my first post on this site.

EDIT: it's actually my fifth post, but that's by the by.

[furiousuk]

Good luck with building a system that tries to emulate Spain/Germany, a challenge no doubt. Oh, and keep posting!!

Using high creative freedom can really set up intelligent players to play great for you, some people don't like to allow that 'lack of control' but, in essence, all it does is allow the players on the pitch (the experts in that situation) to use their expert knowledge in their natural environment. You just have to create the framework that allows them to use their 'expert knowledge' in the best way. Not an easy task but usually fun.

I've written a little bit about trying to create a system that 'squashes' into one area to create space in another in this thread. Works a treat in the right situation, so much so that for the Asymmetric Overload version I've even stuck an out-and-out striker at DR to exploit the space on the right and the resulting one-on-one to try and nick a goal at the end of a game I was losing. *brag* It worked *brag*

[retrodude09]

I know it'll be a challenge, but that's something that interests me, seeing if it's possible to create an overload on one side of the pitch, and then a quick switch to play someone in. I'm also toying with the idea of a striker-less formation, and it's something I've already experimented with in my PSG save to decent effect, but not something I've used long term as I didn't want to freeze my striker out.

Overall, I'm happy with my team, a midfield of M'Vila, Martin and Pastore is a very good base, and then in front of those three is Hazard, Belhanda and Lewandowski so I've got the players that are capable of playing and they're some of the best in the league, it's just building a framework that gets the best out of these individuals which will be the challenge.

I think the main thing for me is how much more I understand the RFD role and that when used correctly, it can be used to devastating effect so that's something I'm going to keep an eye on.